Today on the Evangelist Podcast, we talk about apologetics.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you with Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_09Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. I'm Andy Brinkley, and this is my good friend and colleague, Glenn Scrivener.
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SPEAKER_06Hey, that we good.
SPEAKER_09Great. So we're talking about apologetics.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_09I know when I first heard of the word apologetics, I thought it meant I'm sorry I'm a Christian. I'm sorry I'm a Christian.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it it kind of is. That's the problem. That's the problem. Well, it comes from the Greek word apologia, and it sort of means making a defence, making an answer to anyone who asks you for the reason for the hope that you have, which is 1 Peter 3 verse 15. Uh, but you know, Glenn here's got some problems with the way that apologetics has come to be understood in in certain circles.
SPEAKER_09So Barry Cooper and Nate Morganlock help you sort of unpack your uh my formals, my hobby horses, yes.
SPEAKER_06So yeah, I I don't know, I it's a funny word, apologetics. It's like you can't be against it in one sense because there it is in One Peter 315, and we're meant to make a defense um for why we believe. But I think some forms of how we go about it are questionable, and I just want to raise that question. And if you've got like problems with what I say uh in the podcast, maybe I go a bit far. I don't know. Get in touch, and we'd love to interact with you.
SPEAKER_09Okay.
SPEAKER_06Well, let's uh give that warning in mind. Disclaimer. Welcome everybody to the Evangelist Podcast, and we're here together uh with Nate Morganlock. Hello, everybody! And Barry Cooper better have a very funny voice. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening. Barry did. It's like pressing a button on him and out comes just comedy gold. Yeah, load of old rubbish. Uh we are here together talking about the big issues. Or as uh as Barry likes to call them, the issues. Come on, it's issues. Um actually I it was.
SPEAKER_07I think I'm ambivalent and I've now become issues. I've tipped over.
SPEAKER_06Posh is issues. Issues. Yeah. Tissues for my issues. Issues. What about my issues? Uh because I uh one of the first words that I started saying differently when I came from Australia was greasy, became greasy. Yeah, exactly. And every English person You can't you can't say greasy. Oh convict.
SPEAKER_07But it's such an all-having said that now you say it's wonderfully onomatic, isn't it? Or I don't know if that's the right word, but it's sleazy.
SPEAKER_06It does say sleazy and nice and greasy. Makes you want to take a shit. Does it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Oh, that's good. That's yeah, I like it now. I'm gonna start saying that.
SPEAKER_06So we're discussing the issues or issues. We're a very broad search here. And uh why don't why don't we just ride a hobby horse and see how far we get with it? I thought this week I could state something just so outrageously out there um in in quite a sensational way, and uh and see see if I can defend it.
SPEAKER_08Uh we'll offer an apologetic for you.
SPEAKER_06Offer an apologetic on the subject of apologetics. Thank you very much, Nate. Yeah. Um both of you could work in uh radio with your voices and uh rich mahogany voices.
SPEAKER_07In speak for yourself, all right, keep it line.
SPEAKER_06And we've got comedy voices here too, which is great. So I was thinking about uh an apologetic about apologetics, or rather, uh should we defend apologetics in the form that we currently think of apologetics? I mean, who could disagree with the Apostle Peter, who uh in 1 Peter chapter 3 uh coins the term apologetics with his Greek word apologia? And uh I mean it's fascinating. In 1 Peter 3, verse 15, um Peter says, In your hearts honour Christ the Lord is holy, always being prepared to make a defense or an apologia to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect. Now, fascinatingly, in 1 Peter, um, I mean, it's really a book of suffering. Um, here is these scattered believers who are just really clinging on, but Peter keeps saying, Oh, you've got Christ, and uh in him you're precious in God's eyes, because Christ is precious in God's eyes, and now you're in him, and now you're a priesthood, and I know the Emperor has got it in for you, but just cling to Christ and suffer well, and I know you might be slaves, but cling to Christ and suffer well. And then he comes to kind of 1 Peter 3, and he's talking to this bedraggled, suffering bunch, and he says, you know, sometimes people will ask you to give a reason for the hope that is in you. Well, you know, be ready to tell them it was Jesus who got me through it. That seems to me what apologetics was in in Peter's kind of day, but these days, apologetics I don't know, what what are some of the associations we have with apologetics these days when you say the word?
SPEAKER_07It's interesting, isn't it? I think one of the common assumptions is uh before we can get to Jesus, there's a whole lot of stuff we need to clear out of the way first.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07So I guess that's I mean, that's what I think of straight away when I think of apologetics. It's there are there are various uh beliefs that people have which are false, which we need to kind of deal with before we can um allow people to hear about Jesus. Yes. It's like they've got stuff in their ears which we have to clear out, lots of wax. Yes, or greasy wax, greasy to get out sleazy greasy wax before we can even get to talking about Jesus.
SPEAKER_08The hideous brown wax of unbelief.
SPEAKER_06That metaphor is surprisingly effective. And yes, the q-tip of truth to be applied to the earwax of display.
SPEAKER_08Well, I mean, Jesus said, you know, be opened. That's a good question to ask, whether he applied a little you know Do you think a little droplet beforehand, you know, perhaps he did.
SPEAKER_07A little q-tip. Well, that's the question, isn't it? I mean, how far is that? Is that legitimate?
SPEAKER_06Or is it the very proclamation of Christ which clears the so like if you're thinking about another miracle like Lazarus, I was preaching on Lazarus on Sunday night, and Jesus seems to set up the whole Lazarus scene back in John chapter 5, because he says there's a time coming when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And he he kind of ties that to a salvation moment, you know, you you hear Christ and you cross from death to life in that John 5 way. And then so here in John 11, he's confronted with somebody in his tomb and he says, Lazarus, come out. Um there wasn't a preparatory work, you know, it wasn't like you know, Lazarus needed to be resuscitated enough in order to then hear the voice of Christ and then obey the voice of Christ. The voice of Christ did the whole thing. It took him from death to life. So my thing on apologetics is sometimes if we consider apologetics in that sort of classical sense of clearing the ground and and getting rid of logical uh objections to faith before we then preach the gospel, that's a little bit like kind of reviving Lazarus first, so that Lazarus then hears the voice of Christ, and yet, you know, I think you know, what does Jesus do? Just the voice of Christ creates the life that nothing else can do. And my big my big problem with sort of classical apologetics, and there are lots of different kinds of apologetics, and and I've got you know, these objections don't kind of work if you're if you're into sort of Cornelius Van Til and uh Alvin Plantinga and people like that, they sort of believe in presuppositional apologetics, and I'm not I'm not after those guys, I think those guys do a good job. But classical apologetics, I think, is a bit like works righteousness. I know, I know, I said it. There it is.
SPEAKER_07Ladies and gentlemen, you that's the sound of uh night and I's paradigms exploding. That is what that is.
SPEAKER_08Think of that. So you're hold on, just let me get this straight. You're equating the the classic apologetic movement with the Church of Rome.
SPEAKER_06Uh yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um I th I I do think so. In that I I think it has a I think both of them have kind of developed from Thomas Aquinas. Thomas Aquinas, I mean, he is kind of a philosopher according to according to kind of Roman Catholics, and he is sort of the key theologian, really. And his big thing was that there's a whole bunch of stuff you can know via reason. Yeah. That gets you some of the way, and then you need to get topped up by revelation. So here are the things that you can figure out via reason, and he's got his five ways, his five, you know, arguments for the existence of God, the ontological and the cosmological, and these kinds of things. And we get so far, but he would say, you know, we don't get all the way. We need some revelation to top things up. This will get you to, you know, God the Creator, but we need the gospel to come in to top us up and give us knowledge of Jesus and the Trinity and salvation, and like that kind of thing. But that that fits beautifully into Thomas Aquinas' theology, because that's precisely what he said about salvation. Right. There are so many works that you do that get you maybe 80% of the way, I don't know, maybe only 10% of the way, or you know, but gets you some of the way towards heaven. Here comes this injection of grace that comes down and that tops you up.
SPEAKER_07Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_06And I'm saying that's that's parallel to thinking that there are certain arguments that get you a certain distance towards saving faith, and then we preach the gospel on top of that. That kind of coordination of reason and then faith, uh, or reason and then revelation is exactly like a coordination of works and then grace.
SPEAKER_07Interesting. And yet, I mean, God clearly is a God who works through means and he works through human beings who um when immediately when they speak the same language or dialect as the person that they're talking to, they're immediately doing contextualizing work. I'm doing the doing the bunny ears now. Yep. We ought to really so that you know. I just like to keep it light. I just like to be keeper suit. Yes. So you are oddly dressed, exactly. There's plenty of room in here. I like it, you know. I'm sort of, you know, I've got some middle-aged girls. Anyway, uh, you can count that bit out. Um I no. Um so there's the question is I suppose where where do you draw the line? And if I were being double zaggate, I might say, I might say, is it either or you know, apologetic that kind of apologetics or the proclamation of Christ, or is it both and? Is there a is there space for you know doing the two things alongside each other, fully trusting that God is the one who opens blind eyes and yet he uses our um that sort of apologetics, maybe to help people to um I don't know reach the point where they're I don't know, I don't even know how I'd finish that sentence.
SPEAKER_06But I I think so to keep the analogy going, I totally believe in works. I'm completely 100% into good works. I think good works are good, like in general, I'm for them. Um but if we're talking about salvation, then works take their proper place when we when we begin by saying, okay, it's all of grace Christ given to us completely. And then absolutely we're able to do good works. I I think in the same way the gospel comes, and the gospel is not irrational, you know. It's to do with the logos, to do with the word, and so it's not irrational, so it comes to us in this rational thing, but the gospel's not irrational, we are completely and utterly blind and all those sorts of things, and we can't reason our way towards this truth so that then Jesus comes, and and in trusting Jesus, we're able to reason properly according to the wisdom of the cross.
SPEAKER_08So I mean, let's just say that we've we've got someone who um non-Christian atheist or agnostic. Um let's say they're an atheist, and we say, okay, let's have a look at um John 1, verse 1, in the beginning of the Word, and the Word was God, the word was with God, or even Mark 1, verse 1. You know, this is the gospel, the beginning of the gospel are Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Now so we want to talk about there there he is, the Word, the Logos, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they say, Why don't you believe in God? So already your presentation of this gospel, this good news, it's it makes no sense because there you need to prove to me first that there's a God, and then the second thing you need to do is then prove to me that Jesus is the apparent son of this God.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. But you don't believe that, do you? Like you don't believe that you first need to introduce someone to God and enter Jesus.
SPEAKER_08Look, if you're gonna ride a hobby horse, I'm gonna be putting roadblocks on. I don't know where that word is. But no, but that's what I'm saying. So how do we get with someone who says, I don't believe in that God even exists? Oh, wonderful. Would it not move them closer? And again, this is a devil's advocate thing, to say, well, here's uh an ontological argument, here's a telelogical argument for a God. Yeah, yeah. Now we've got you to be a theist, we can then we can put Jesus in.
SPEAKER_07No, don't say that to Glenn. He said he's gonna be. He's invited you on this podcast in all good faith, though you've said that. So now he's your chat. We're not gonna leave here now.
SPEAKER_06We're gonna be a bit. He's locked the doors and everything. My my veins are bulging right now. You need to know this. Um I mean I I just find that that that isn't the way at all. And that if you then try to you know convince them of gods, like the atheist is just not interested at all. But if you try and say, Well, here's Jesus, just just have a look for argument's sake, have a look at Jesus. I'm into the Jesus God. See what he's like. Because if you do the other thing and you say, Well, let's let's kind of think about this big, you know, this omnibeing in the sky, then you instead of helping you towards Jesus, now you've got to then say, Okay, so the omni being, we all agree on the omnibeing, Jesus is the omnibeing. And then they go, What? Really? This guy. Because they've opened they've opened up Mark's gospel and he looks quite interesting. Because there he is, this walking, talking, human sacrifice, laughing, crying, bleeding for the world. Yeah, yeah. And you go, you know that guy that you're really interested in? Yeah, he's the god of Greek philosophy.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, yeah, yeah. How has that helped? Yeah, so so we're saying then you s your starting point then is not the like uh an omnibeing, but is a carpenter from Nazareth.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the Jesus God.
SPEAKER_08Oh, but he's gotta be then God as well.
SPEAKER_06The Jesus God.
SPEAKER_08Okay. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_06The God revealed by Jesus, who is the Son. So so, you know. So you you gotta be front and center. Well, if he's the Son who reveals the Father and he's full of the Holy Spirit. That sounds like nuts to you, atheist, doesn't it? Uh but then everything I'm about to say sounds nuts to you. I'm about to talk about him, you know, walking out of the tomb.
SPEAKER_07But what makes you think they'd stick around to hear that, I suppose.
SPEAKER_06If they're interested in some kind of discussion, then uh you would just hope that they're interested enough to say, hey, can I take three minutes to tell you the Christian story? Yeah. Um if they're not interested in hearing, you know, the Christian story at all, then I I do question how open they are to any kind of discussion.
SPEAKER_07See, that's where I w I wonder whether there is a role for the sort of apologetics that we talk about. Um not so much to sort of get a person to a point where they trust Christ, but more that you get them to the point where they were willing to trust you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07That would be what I'd say. I think is that certainly with the friends I have, good friends who who would describe themselves as atheist or agnostic. Um when we first met, um I think there was you know, there was obviously a period as were there any friendship where you're kind of just circling each other a bit and just thinking, is this the sort of person I can just like?
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And just kind of trust. Um and then once you're in that place, I mean, I'm much more likely to listen when my friend Adam talks to me about something he knows something about because I like him, I trust him, I think he's somebody who takes my concerns seriously. And I wonder whether there's a parallel there the other way. So I want him to feel as he is speaking to me, actually. Although I disagree with Barry on lots of stuff, um I like him. And I feel like he's for me. More likely to just he's more likely to stick around and listen to me talk about Jesus.
SPEAKER_06That sounds brilliant. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I guess it depends what in a sense, I guess what I'm saying is it depends what someone's into.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_07I mean, if that's where they genuinely are, and I that's a discussion I realise right there, because are people really there where they want to kind of just end up and talk classical? But I think if somebody is I think there's a sense in which you have to at least uh show that you're the sort of person who who isn't interested in just steamrolling a steamrolling somebody, you actually are genuinely listening to them. And if they do happen to be there, even if inside we're thinking, ah, that's kind of a dark place to be coming from. Nevertheless, you're trying to, as it were, put yourself in their shoes and go, actually, if I was there, maybe that's something that I'd want to at least demonstrate that I'm taking seriously inside. Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_06No, totally.
SPEAKER_08So here's another uh pushback. Top of mind at the moment, this pushback. Yes. We can interface on this. Good. Um isn't Paul doing what we talked about in the saying, okay, let's start with this concept of God, and then we'll we'll fit Jesus into that. In you know, when he speaks in Athens, he's you know at Mars Hill, and he you know, he finds this, you know, here's here's the world that already exists, and he finds his nice sort of he finds his place, you know, on the wall that he can put his little nail in, and then he can hang here's this God, and I'm just getting helping you to understand this God that you already kind of know, because you know, you're very religious and all that sort of stuff, and then he's saying, Okay, well, like here's like here's Jesus. You know, like he just you know he's the god that you already knew, but you know, yeah. I think it's exactly the opposite way around. There is literally steam coming out of Glen's ears.
SPEAKER_06I almost broke my iPad. Alright, okay. Acts 17. Let's let's see if this holds water. Alright, Acts 17, verse 16. Now, while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him to see, you know, how very full of the truth they were and how many, you know, crossover points between the gospel and and uh and Greek culture they were. No. He saw that the city was full of idols. So he risen in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there. What did he talk about? Verse 18. Some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers also conversed with him. And some said, What does this babbler wish to say? Which is I mean, that gives me great hope as an evangelist. Just like if Paul was called a babbler. If Paul's a babbler. Others said, He seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities. So he's he seems to be like bringing this like different kind of God. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection. And so, you know, resurrection is the word anastasis, and you know, sounds like Jesus and Anastasia. He's talking about these foreign gods they've never heard of before. That's the context. So they took him, brought into the Areopagus say, saying, May we know what this new teaching is that you're presenting, for you bring some strange things to our ears. We wish to know, therefore, what these things mean. I love verse twenty one. It's kind of it's almost like a bracket, it's almost a parenthesis in Luke. Like now, all the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there would spend their time in nothing except telling or hearing something new. Sort of the the history of Greek philosophy.
SPEAKER_08But philosophy obviously. That's where no philo means lover and sofa is a comfortable settee. So they love sitting on settees. Exactly. They love sitting on settings.
SPEAKER_06I never get tired of hearing that. I don't.
unknownIt's good.
SPEAKER_06If that helps to couch it in that language. So um we'll insert laughter.
SPEAKER_02I don't care. I don't care if you're not laughing.
SPEAKER_06Insert laughter. Alright. So all they did was spending their time doing nothing but talking about the latest ideas. That's Greek philosophy just dismissed in a verse. I love them. So verse 22. Standing in the midst of the Areopagus, he said, Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. There's debate about whether that's a positive or a negative word. It could be superstitious, who knows? But you know, you guys are into your spiritual stuff. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I find I found also an altar with this inscrip inscription to the unknown God. What therefore you worship as unknown? This I proclaim to you. Now to me, that's him saying, Look, you guys, you're so superstitious, you've even got like a miscellaneous character, you know, category for God over there. Like, there's one thing you guys know about God, you don't know God. Yeah. What you don't know, you don't know anything. So let me let me proclaim him to you. This God that I've been babbling about, this Jesus and the resurrection, okay. Let me step back and give you the big picture. Yeah. Verse 24. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man. Now that's fundamentally opposite to the way they conceived of all things. The gods were descended from the heavens, they were not, you know, Lord of heaven. Uh verse 25, nor is this God served by human hands as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind. So Adam. Here's this strange Adam story. Uh, to live on the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God and perhaps feel their way towards him and find him. Yet he's not actually far from each one of us. So it's it's important to say, like, even though I'm saying people don't naturally know God, he's still like revealing himself, and he's still reaching out to people in massive ways, it's just we're not very good at listening. And then he you know he quotes from the poets of the day, quotes from the pop songs of the day, verse 28, for quote, in him we live and move and have our being, as even some of your own poets have said, for we are indeed his offspring. Now, absolutely, you know, he quotes pop songs, I quote pop songs, but like when I when I quote Lady Gaga, do I mean by Lady Gargar's line what she meant by it? You know, am I am I importing everything from that poet into my worldview? And I I would suggest no. I suggest actually what he's saying is if you really believe we're God's offspring, you couldn't possibly think the way that you do about God.
SPEAKER_01You know.
SPEAKER_06So he you know he's using them against themselves, really. Being then God's offspring, verse 29, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance, that's just ignorance. God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by another man, a second Adam, Jesus, whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead. Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, others said, We'll hear you again about this, Paul went out from their midst. But some joined and believed, and he names those people who they are. It seems to me he's just coming into this like religious marketplace and say, You are idiots, you don't know anything. The one thing you know is you don't know God, let me let me tell you about God. He's the exact opposite of everything that your whole religious setup is is founded on. And if you really believed what some of your poets say in little snatches of lines, then you couldn't possibly think what you think. Um let me tell you the story of Adam and Jesus, um Repent, you guys are ignorant. Just he just to me he's not building stepping stones at all. I don't think.
SPEAKER_08So he f he finds that place in the sort of the art gallery of their divinities. He finds the little spot, puts his nail in, grabs a sledgehammer, and destroys the wall. Yeah, that's the way that's the same thing. That's he just knocks the whole thing down and then just says, Okay, let's do that.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, we are inside the gallery of this guy that I'm talking about. He's not a picture in the gallery.
SPEAKER_07Glenn, just talk briefly about what's the why is it that presuppositional apologetics sits comfortably within the sort of thing that you're advocating? Whereas the more classical side of things is not, just to get that clear.
SPEAKER_06I think presuppositional apologetics uh tends to be from uh very uh high Presbyterian Calvinist kind of people who absolutely believe that we're saved by grace alone through faith alone, and and they sort of do the maths and say, therefore, in terms of revelation, we're saved by revelation alone through God's gift alone. Um and so the way they they go about things is I I would say this is far more, Act 17 is far more a presuppositional thing, where yes, he you know, to a degree, he goes into their world view and shows that it's it's internally incoherent and stupid, and you know, even your own poets are against you, and you know, um which is what the presuppositional guys do. Um but he says let's let me invite you into this world in which Jesus is Lord. Let me tell you a story that you think is nuts. Of course you think it's nuts, but as you enter into this story, you will see its own internal consistency and then its ability to explain the rest of life. Um so it's it's not so much building stepping stones from one house to another, it's inviting people into your house and saying, come on over, suspend disbelief for a second, and you know, isn't there also something else?
SPEAKER_08I mean, in terms of this um presuppositional stuff, I've I've kind of thought about it a bit like this. People that they've got the downstairs of the house and they're upstairs of the house. The downstairs is the things that they do, the way that they're living their life day to day, the things that they think are important, their emotional life, their morality, all that sort of stuff. And then they've got the upstairs of the house, which is if you like the basis for all of that living. And so, in a sense, what you're you're doing in presuppositional apologetics is something like okay, let's come into your the downstairs of your house. This is how you live. This okay. Now, do you understand that you cannot get this from what you think you've got upstairs? Yes, yeah, because what you've got upstairs, if it's you know, like a completely atheistic, you know, um, I only believe in science and what you know Brian Cox says on the telly in that wonderful voice of his at the stars, you know. Like, aren't stars brilliant?
SPEAKER_07They just massive, they're like really far away, right? But they're like really bright, and you know, like when you see that light coming down, right? It's not even like real light that you've seen, it's like really old light, and it hasn't got to you yet, so it hasn't gone into your eyeballs and into your brain yet. But sometimes, right? When I look up, I don't see stars anymore, I just see a massive image of my face.
SPEAKER_06Thanks, thanks, uh Brian. As a podcast extra, we've got to add on the end of this episode uh Harry Hill taking off. Have you seen that one? What's the time? I don't I don't even know what the question means. And Harry Hill's going, you know, it's half eleven.
SPEAKER_08But so so, in a sense, saying to people, okay, so if you've got a a apparently purely naturalistic worldview, okay, which everything's just randomly come into being by chance, that's what your upstairs of your house is, then logically you cannot say that there is objective good and objective bad in the world. You you can't have that because the two are just not connected. And so, in a sense, something about helping people to see maybe that there there is a real uh you know a disconnection between the way that they're living their life day by day and what they apparently believe is the ultimate reality.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_08And so helping people to go now, if you want that, you know, you have this instinctive sense of justice or whatever, then in fact, I'm sorry, like you might not need Christianity to make that that fit. I mean, obviously that gives the correct explanation, but you now need some form of you know theism. Now, of course, that would not be evangelism, right? That would be, in a sense, um almost kind of helping someone explore their own belief system, yeah, which is very different from what you're saying, which is come on over to this house, yeah, see this this is the way that Christians live, because upstairs is this truth about the universe, which is that God is always loving, has always been Father, Son, and Spirit, and it's just joy and giving and therefore doesn't that explain why personal relationships and face-to-face and love is the greatest thing in personal truth trumps all other kinds of truths.
SPEAKER_06And now let me take you by the hand as a Christian, I'll walk you down into my house, and the reason why I believe in community, and the reason why I believe in logic and love and laughter and the lemon drizzle cake is is because it all flows from up above. Um but yeah, I I just want to keep that trajectory of it coming down, down, down, down. Just as salvation comes down, down, down, down from heaven, so revelation comes down, and that's what I think. That's just me though.
SPEAKER_07Should we spend some time more time mocking Brian Cox? We can visit each other's houses.
SPEAKER_08Can I come upstairs in your house, please? Speaking metaphorically, of course.
SPEAKER_06You're materialist. Yeah. That's true. A materialist would never have a bungalow, though. Yeah. Mixing the meanings. Up so you live in a static camera. The the good thing is that we've got Harry Hill. Harry Hill coming up. Yeah. So um, I don't know. What do you guys think? Um, some of you might be massively offended because you think I've just undermined your entire ministry. Please do write in and uh and we'd love to interact with you. Um I don't mean you. That's what that's what I say. It's the other people that I'm talking about. The really nasty horned apologists. No, no, no. I look yeah, I mean, final word on apologetics is it's a slippery term. So it's greasy. It's greasy. It's greasy. So, yeah, I mean, yeah, being against apologetics is like being against good works. Who could be against good works? Like, and I've got all the time in the world for rationally thinking through arguments and examining worldviews and all that kind of stuff, but I just want to make a little plea for putting it in its right place and having a kind of a top-down pro proclamatory front foot in a bit. That's my take home. Great. Well, thank you guys. Thank you, Barry, very much. Cheers, Glenn. And thank you, Nate. Cheers, Glenn. The sincerity is dripping off us. And uh, we'll see you again next episode on the Evangelist Podcast. Bye.
SPEAKER_02Bye.
SPEAKER_06Thanks, Glenn. It's been brilliant. Thanks for having me on.
SPEAKER_09That was Barry Cooper and Nate Morganlock. Um pacifying Glenn talking about uh apologetics.
SPEAKER_06That's right. But we we also we we will need to play the uh the Harry Hill episode with uh Professor Brian Cox. Yeah, we'll yeah we'll do that. I don't know what's funny, Harry Harry Hill or uh or Barry Cooper's impression of Brian Cox. I think yeah, I think that's pretty good. Um but if yes, allow that to pacify you. Uh if if I've spoken against apologetics and if you want to make uh make an apologetic for apologetics, then please do get in touch. Why not? And let's get a dialogue going.
SPEAKER_09Okay, so uh the place where this is all happening is uh revivalmedia.org slash TEP73. If you go there, you can find all the links to the podcast, sign up via email or subscribe in some other way, give us a rating of review on iTunes, and leave a comment on there and uh upload a picture of yourself.
SPEAKER_06It's that kind of day and age, isn't it?
SPEAKER_09Yeah. Upload a selfie day.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_09And you can check out all the other listeners there. So revivalmedia.org slash TEP73. Thanks for listening and see you next time. See ya bye-bye.
SPEAKER_03Professor of Physics Brian Cott. Pose this question. I'm going to try and answer one of the simplest questions you could ask. What time is it? About five to seven. I don't know if it's to have a large product. There's more to it than that. So the answer to the question of what time is it is about time you go instead of a lot of broader reactions that you understand what time it means, you have to go to microscopy.
SPEAKER_05And to know what time it is, you have to stop looking into the sky and looking at the style out of the planets. And you have to look down into the world of this model at all at a lot.
SPEAKER_03I don't underthinking the whole thing. It's making it overcomplicated, even worrying too much about the answer.
SPEAKER_05We might not be in a decision at this moment in time with a current understanding of nature. Do we even understand what it is that we're asking?
SPEAKER_03Okay, time to do bringing some work back. We want to know what time is at the moment.