Today on the Evangelist Podcast, we're talking again to Peter Mead about preaching.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you. With Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_01Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. I'm Andy Brinkley, and here is Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_03Is that all I'm gonna get as an review today? Okay. That'll do. Hello everybody.
SPEAKER_01So Glenn, we're having Peter Mead on this time. We had him on before. Yeah. Um, speaking about uh Cordeo and and his book, Please to Dwell About the Incarnation. So why why have you brought him on again?
SPEAKER_03Well, because we're just having such a good time uh that I thought there's plenty more that I'd love to press into and ask him about, especially in the realm of preaching. He's had a blog called BiblicalPreaching.net since 2007, and it's full of wonderful wisdom about what preaching is, as well as uh how you do it practically and and um how you connect with people and and how we herald the voice of Christ to people. So he is yeah, one of the people that I would go to first to ask, you know, what is preaching and and how can you help a young preacher. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I thought we'd ask him. Okay. Uh yeah, and you also talk about a few other things.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Things like um like his story, um, how he came to Christ's evangelism, what he's learnt from George Verwer, uh, who's a who's a friend of his and and just uh an astonishing kind of example to us of George Verwer. Um and also on Bible reading, which yeah, stay tuned for his great words on Bible reading at the end. I think they're they're inspirational.
SPEAKER_01Okay, excellent. Let's uh hear the interview then.
SPEAKER_03So I'm joined uh a second time by Peter Mead from Chippenham. Hello, Peter.
SPEAKER_02Hey Glenn, good to be with you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, great. Good to be with you too. Um so we talked in uh a previous episode about uh Cordeo, which uh you are a mentor on this uh training program for people uh training them up in gospel ministry. Uh you're also leading a church plant there in Chippenham. You're also uh planting a church. So you're you wear a lot of different hats. What what unites them all? What is what is your passion? Why why do the Cordeo thing, the writing thing, the church planting thing, uh what uh what are you about?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a good good question. Um I I think really the the passion that I have over the years has morphed in terms of how it expresses itself, but it's always really been about equipping people for biblical ministry in some form. So i in the past I was uh just teaching courses in in Bible schools when I had the opportunity, or teaching at conferences or preaching in churches, whereas now it's more focused in terms of Cordeo plus the church that I'm a part of the the leadership of. You know, that those two things are the primary things that that take up my time, but still I'll I'll do things elsewhere. But essentially it keeps coming round to that um wanting to enthuse people about the Bible, wanting to equip people uh to handle the Bible and and mostly to in that ministry that the other people have to help them uh present and offer the heart of God and multiply that because that's really uh that's really the thing that's going to make the difference is is God's heart coming through different people's ministries. So yeah, I think that's probably what unites it, if yeah.
SPEAKER_03Now you grew up as a missionary kid, is that right? I did. How did that kind of shape you growing up?
SPEAKER_02Um I'm sure it's hard to quantify, isn't it, how any of our background shaped us is just massive impact. But uh my parents were missionaries in Italy, so I I grew up both in Italy and in England, uh did my schooling in England, but had a lot of exposure to Italy. And so, yeah, I kind of in a way, to me, missions and gospel ministry and church life that was very normal, and yet at the same time I wanted to be normal. So I I I wasn't automatically leaning in in the direction of being involved in ministry at all. I really wanted a normal life, had a whole set of plans that didn't involve anything like what my parents were doing. Um, but then uh I'll say God kind of got a gr got a grip on my heart and turned things around in my late teenage years.
SPEAKER_03And how did that happen? What happened then?
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, I I I suppose it's a common story for a lot of missionary kids and and pastors' kids and preachers' kids, uh, all the kind of acronyms with K in the PKs and the MKs is that you grow up and you you sort of have this respect for what your parents do, but a desire to have a slightly more normal life, whatever the other things are that are attractive. Um and so sometimes that manifests in massive overt rebellion, other times just in a sort of respectability. But it's interesting uh to me that a lot of people who do grow up um under the those conditions, if you like, tend to end up being either uh one of two extremes, either they go complete rebel, uh rebellious, or they go uh end up in ministry in some way, but it had to be a personal journey. Um, and often it's through the rebellion into the ministry, you know, so it's both hand. And so for me, it there was really in my teenage years, I'd I'd become a believer in my in my childhood years. I think that was genuine, but but as a teenager, I was really straddling the fence. I was uh very able to answer the questions at Sunday school, and I was very able to not let it show during the week, you know, and and so that was kind of the way uh those years were were spent or misspent. And then it was I think I was 17, I was at a missionary weekend away for youth, which just sounds like a dangerous combination uh to me, and it probably was, and uh we we had this weekend away, we were getting taught and preached at and exposed to the ministries of different uh missionaries. Uh I sort of remember who they were, I certainly don't remember what they said, um, but it was in the course of uh the singing, actually, what one of the songs that we sang. Really, uh that's what God seemed to use to just break my heart open uh in in a powerful way, which I look back on as being a really, really key moment in my life. And so that the song it was kind of the anthem for the weekend. The chap leading worship seemed to use it every opportunity, and uh and the words were um, here I am, wholly available, as for me, I will serve the Lord. That was the chorus, and then three verses about the fields being white to harvest and that kind of stuff. And I was singing this song, and on the second night, the Saturday night, I suddenly realized I can't sing this. You know, here I am, partially available on my terms, would have been would have been the lyric. Um I wrestled that through. Uh I just found myself in this wrestling match that I didn't anticipate, I didn't choose, I wasn't particularly wanting. But just it was it was as if God was shining a light on the almost the awkwardness of my own heart in terms of okay, so you you believe that I created you, yes I do. You believe that I've saved you, yes I do. And so you trust me, yes. Then why don't you trust me? Well, I kind of do, yeah, but only kind of. You know, it was that kind of processing and wrestling that I just realized actually this is ridiculous. I I'm staking my eternity on God's goodness, but I'm asking for God to apply his goodness to my own plan for my life, which is patently immature. So how how did how does that work? And and I think it was in the midst of that that the the wonder of God's goodness and grace and and love for me kind of got a grip on me, and I realized this is this doesn't make any sense. If I'm gonna trust him, I'm gonna try I need to trust him, trust him. And uh it was amazing, just just uh the little internal processing, no one stood around me, had any idea, but inside I think I was revolutionized.
SPEAKER_03You're a teenager at this point? How old are you? Yeah, 17. 17, okay.
SPEAKER_02Suddenly I found myself not just saying, Oh, okay, I'll I'll do things I didn't want to do, sign me up. It suddenly I was motivated, you know. I was motivated for God, motivated for church, motivated for ministry, motivated to preach, which I never wanted to do. As a real introverted, shy child, and the last thing I'd want to do would be preaching. Suddenly I thought about preaching, I thought about foreign missions, and uh and yeah, I look back on that and and and view that really as God answering probably a whole lot of people's prayers uh for me, and and I just praise him for that.
SPEAKER_03Yes. When did uh Operation Mobilization come into play?
SPEAKER_02Pretty quickly. Um it's one of those things I'd always known about. My parents had been involved, so I'd I I'd always been aware of OM, uh, which is a big um cross-cultural missions organization. Um so 17 so three years later or two years later, I did a short-term mission trip uh where I visited the OM ship and spent uh a week on the ship. And as I was on the uh working on board the ship, just briefly, really, it was just five days, I think. I I looked around and I thought, if I ever came on this, I would grow up a lot. This would really force me to mature. Uh and so a year later I was I was on board for a year. And uh so spent a year on the ship, uh, had a great, great time. And uh yeah, a few years later rejoined OM, which technically we're still with OM now, so rejoined OM 2004.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02And uh working in the UK and with the real freedom to to kind of apply myself to different things, but all under the umbrella of being a full-time OM er.
SPEAKER_03Yes. So you got to know George Vower a a little bit, uh the founder of OM.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Yep. George uh well, George has got this amazing ability. Um don't know that is it gift, is it just incredible diligence, but he keeps track of um not just ex-OMers, but their children and their children's children, you know. And so because my parents or my dad especially were was involved in OM in the 60s, for some reason George took an interest in me. Uh so yeah, we ended up actually living next door to George for almost a year when we first moved back to the UK in 2004. Goodness me.
SPEAKER_03What have you learnt from George Vower when it comes to Christian ministry?
SPEAKER_02George uh is is unique, uh, and and yeah, I think the thing about the uniqueness of George is that it's carried in a in a sort of a big basket of humility. He is not full of his own importance, even though it's hard to think of anyone that's had a bigger impact. And I I tend to think that that's probably why God still trusts him with influence. And so I when I think of George, I don't just think about the the kind of the big uh crazy messages and and and stunts and things that he's done. I think of someone who prays constantly, just just very diligent in terms of having you know, even having pictures of people on his phone so that when he's in the underground uh and his signal dies, he's still got pictures to pray through. You know, just just thinking things through ahead of time. Uh, he's constantly giving books away, which I just think, man, I wish more Christians would do that. That's wonderful ministry. He's constantly linking people together. Uh, just uh, you know, so it's not just his ministry, it's it's hey, person A, let me introduce you to person B, and the two of you can make something happen. Um yeah, so things like that are what stand out to me when I think of George, be probably because of living next door to him, and seeing him in action, just realizing, yeah, he really does go pretty much 24 hours a day, but um that there's a there's a productivity, just the wrong word, but there's a productiveness there that the rest of us are fruit that's a good word. There's a fruitfulness there that that I think maybe the rest of us are only dreaming of at times. But uh yeah, so that I think there's a lot to learn uh from George. I've certainly benefited massively from from a close friendship over over the years.
SPEAKER_03So tell me about preaching, because you you said growing up you're quite introverted. Yeah. And yet anyone looking at you in the pulpit would see uh a very gifted preacher, very gifted communicator, someone who seems very comfortable in front of people. How is there hope for introverts, therefore?
SPEAKER_02Oh I yeah. I think if uh if you look around, actually, that there's a massive number of introverts who are preachers. And I think part of that is because as introverts, um we're more able to carve out the time to be alone to do the preparation, which just takes a massive amount of effort. And then actually, as hard as I I know you know, you get these statistics about um people would rather die than public speak, which is a complete twisting of statistics. But um, people do have a fear of public speaking, but actually I think introvert preachers would probably say, Well, I can control that. You know, it doesn't matter if there's a thousand people sat in front of me. I I'm you know, it's not a party. I I'm I'm speaking, I'm I'm communicating, I'm in control. So I think actually for introverts it's not that scary of a thing. Uh I'd I'd much more comfortable comfortable preaching than I am standing at a social gathering with, you know, people walking around with trays of food. Yeah, I think uh i there's just just we're all made differently, aren't we? And I I I think about that in terms of preaching that s there isn't a spiritual gift of preaching. Uh pretty much any spiritual gift mix can lead to uh some obviously people think of the obvious one, a gift of teaching. Um but then there's people who don't have the gift of teaching who can still preach, and so somehow we've got to distinguish uh that. But then also temperaments, you know, an extrovert will communicate in ways that an introvert won't, and will connect with people that introverts don't, and you know, so I think there's uh different cultures, different backgrounds, different temperaments, even maybe even our appearance. I mean, just the whole blend, we're all unique. And so I yeah, I I think that God kind of creates God's just as God says, okay, let's I'm gonna make fruit and you know, look at the variety of fruit, or I'm gonna make fish, and he doesn't do a sort of eight-inch functional grey fish, he does incredible diversity. I think the same thing's true with preachers.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02God says, Okay, let's have some preachers in the church, and then you just get this incredible diversity of preachers as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. A friend of mine was um being taught preaching by Mark Dever, who's very much an A-type personality kinda. And my friend was quite introverted, said, Um, you know, do you think do you think God could use an introvert as a preacher? And Mark Dever said, Do you mean do I think God could use John Piper as a preacher? You know, John Piper, you know, famous famously introverted and and extremely shy and grew up with a stutter and all those sorts of things.
SPEAKER_02So Yeah, he probably he didn't follow through and say probably not, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he saw the point and just yeah. Yeah, but um that's interesting, yeah, and I often say that with evangelism as well, people sort of thought think of evangelists as the the person with the gift of the gab and the A-type personality, but that's sort of you know the tigers of this world scare the Eeyores and the Pooh's massively, you know. And and you know, maybe maybe an Eeyore is the best person to reach an Eeyore, to be honest.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I often think about that in terms of evangelism committees as well, you know, in churches where you say, Oh, we need to have some a group of people uh putting effort into organizing stuff, which yeah, I totally get that. So let's put all the evangelists on the committee. Yeah, right. No, no, no, don't do that, because then the rest of the church can't relate to that. You know, you want to have some people in there who will freely admit I'm not an evangelist at all by gifting, but I'm passionately committed to making it happen, you know. And so, yeah, I think you're right that sometimes these caricatures or little stereotypes really aren't helpful. There's there's so much diversity, and God works through all sorts of different people in different ways.
SPEAKER_03So, what got you as a as a more introverted teenager, what got you into A, preaching, and then B wanting to go deeper studying preaching and and and to because you I mean you you went to the States, is that right? In order to Yeah, yeah, I did.
SPEAKER_02I I I think I started preaching uh late teens because of the kind of church I was in that you kind of get pushed into the pulpit quite quite young and before you're ready. Um and then I went to the OM ship, and on the ship I had just ridiculous opportunities in terms of uh on board conferences, but also local churches in different parts of the world, uh, all sizes, all denominations. So I had all sorts of experience and exposure, and I really enjoyed it. I absolutely loved doing it, uh, didn't really know what I was doing. And so then after that, I I went to um Multnomah Biblical Seminary in Portland and and was able to study there for a few years. And uh in the course of a full um essentially a pastor's training course for uh three years, plus I did an extra year, so a total of four years in in Multnomah, the class where everything seemed to come together was preaching. Yes, so it was you know, my theology was was coming into that, my understanding of history, my understanding of languages, my understanding of Bible and you know, everything, even counseling, it was all kind of coming into that that course on preaching, and I thought, you know what, I this this is a real passion. I really enjoying this. And so then I was able to go on and and study beyond that again, and and went to Gordon Comwell uh seminary and studied preaching there with Haddon Robinson, who is kind of the dean of something or other, dean, dean of preaching instructors or something. But Haddon was was fantastic, and and I just really enjoyed taking those those years of of that study and just thinking, well, I want to I want to be the best I can be, and I'm not gonna master it, I'm not gonna be finished with this, this is gonna be a lifelong quest, if you like. But but this is uh taking that time to study in that way was a real privilege, and it's it's opened up doors and given me opportunities, which I'm thankful for. But really, it's this long term. I want to I want to keep studying, preaching, I want to keep improving. Because every time I preach, I look back or listen back to to the message and go, oh, that could have been clearer, that could have been better, that could have been more engaging. Yeah. So there's always more to learn.
SPEAKER_03I'll ask you about Haddon Robinson in a second, but let's let's go more foundational and ask, like, what is preaching actually? Like, why why on earth, you know, if if in the service somebody's read the scriptures for a few minutes, why don't they just keep reading for the next 30 minutes? Like, why why does the person with the Bible shut down? Yeah, I'm shooting up for that. But um, yeah, but why why have somebody get up and uh and speak? You know, what's what's preaching for?
SPEAKER_02Well, I I think in in terms of that specific question, there we've we've got the biblical the whole of biblical uh example to us, if you like, of of how did God work? Think about the prophets, think about the apostles. Right the way through the Bible you've got people who um are not just reading an uh a text, even if that text is inspired, but they're actually explaining and applying and engaging and speaking into the specific situation. And so I suppose it's uh sort of an incarnational thing where uh simply having it read is very powerful, and I think uh something to think about. I you know, we uh I I would encourage people uh for one example, random example, but why not get a group of people together and say let's read through the New Testament straight and it takes about 18 hours. I've I've got friends that have done that and absolutely loved it, and so you know that's that's a fantastic idea. But in terms of the life of the church, in terms of the kind of ongoing health of God's people, I think there is a place that's distinct in terms of preaching as opposed to simply reading of scripture. And that is again, like when we talked uh on a previous uh chat about Cordea, we talked about having in this training program that I ran, having so much Bible because we want God to have a voice. We're doing in the same way we want God to have a voice in the church, and and actually that's gonna come through the preaching, bizarrely, when you think about the fact that humans are involved, but then it's bizarre that the scriptures are perfect when humans were involved too. So you know, we can't claim perfection in our preaching, but we we we really should be viewing it as this is a God thing. Yes, that this person uh is the Spirit of God is at work, and somehow through the understanding, the study of the meaning uh of that specific text communicated effectively and engagingly and targeted to the listeners who are there on that day. It's a unique moment in time. I think the combination of those things adds up to what I would call biblical preaching. So God's involved, the meaning of the text is involved, effective communication's involved, and relevance. Uh, not that you're adding relevance, but you're targeting it, you're making clear, you're emphasizing the relevance that the scripture has for those people. So I think that's that's really the combination that makes preaching so exciting.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02Uh and then of course we can always kill it by adding other requirements that sermons have to be done a certain way or you know, a certain length, or whatever. The reality is there's a lot of flexibility in how we actually preach, but but we should feel really constrained to want the message of that text to be the message of our message. Yes.
SPEAKER_03I I mean I've Find all the conversations about preaching tend to be about the techniques that surround preaching. You know, do you preach from full script or do you preach from notes? Do you use PowerPoint? Do you not use PowerPoint? And and and sort of quite peripheral things when when actually I I see a real dearth of of understanding of what preaching is, even among sort of evangelicals who have a high view of the pulpit, they tend to be quite reluctant to say what the reformers used to say, that the preaching of the word of God is the word of God. And to have that kind of high view. How do we get a high view of the pulpit and a high view of what preaching actually is in our churches?
SPEAKER_02I think it's got to come that any question like that is always gonna be something that cannot be imposed, but needs to be sort of an infection that people get. So that obviously, as the leaders of a church, define your view of scripture and and state it and be clear, and and a lot of churches just don't really know where they stand because no one's ever taken the time to define who they are. But that that's almost beside the point. The real issue is the person or people preaching need to have an infectious, contagious passion for scripture and for the God of Scripture. And if they don't, then it doesn't matter what you say about the Bible, it's not gonna it's not gonna infect people with a a real appreciation of it.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02So I think that's really uh a critical element of it. And instead of seeing the Bible and preaching as a means to an end, or or sort of a tool in our armory as we try to beat the sheep into conformity to whatever our particular passions are, instead say, no, no, uh, as a co-sheep, there's a new term, as a co-sheep, I uh I and we need to hear from the shepherd. We need we need his uh his heart to be revealed to us, we need to hear his voice, uh, and so on. And so that's where I think the the preaching is gonna get healthier, is when we have a real desire to hear from God, and therefore a passionate determination to make sure that what we communicate isn't abusing the scripture and just kind of reading a verse to support our point, but actually the message of the text is being communicated, and and what the text says is coming across and what the text does is happening. Um so yeah, I think that's where it's gonna come from, is it's much more of a personal high view of scripture that then will it spill out to others.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I I I don't think I ever heard preaching until I I remember I went to All Souls Langham Place, and uh Paul Blackham got up into the pulpit and and just began in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen, and just kind of preached as though he believed that. Yeah. And then finished it off with, therefore to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit be ascribed all the glory, all the praise, all the wonder, and all our worship now and forever, Amen. And I just remember sort of being riveted to the the pew. I have just been heralded at, you know. So Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um and that and that kind of heralding is is a if it's if it's done, you know, well, which obviously Paul Blackham would would be an example of someone who'd do that, is that they're it's it's not that that he's trying to force you to do something.
SPEAKER_03No, no.
SPEAKER_02It's that he's he's got something to say and he's gonna say it, and and that will have its own force in your life, but all the tirades and you know kind of uh verbal attacks that he could manufacture would never achieve anywhere near as much as what he was doing. No. The heralding and the presenting of God and the gospel.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Hence saying, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You know, not in my name, not in Paul Blackham's name, but you know, here is God's voice to be heard.
SPEAKER_02Uh, it's not sales and it's not you know, the preacher is not your personal trainer, it's not your morality trainer. The preacher is presenting and representing God and God's voice to the people, and God is more than capable of transforming lives.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think that's where uh that's the the benefit of being in a church where you get preaching that that you can say, yeah, that's that's really that's that's what I want it to be, in the sense of being enriching and feeding and and and deeply biblical, rather than you know, you can get preaching that's very applicational or very relevant, but it can be completely lacking in that kind of authority where it's it's the the work of the gospel and the work of God's spirit to bring about transformation. Yes.
SPEAKER_03Now you s you studied under Haddon Robinson, who's probably um much more familiar um to uh American listeners, but um I I know a little bit about Haddon Robinson. What would you say are sort of his distinctives in in preaching?
SPEAKER_02Well, Haddon, I I think, in some ways, was a bit of a pioneer because he was coming from a very solidly biblical, passionately biblical kind of background, but at the same time he was looking at communication theory, if you like, and learning from people that weren't just in that narrow uh track that he came from. And so Haddon's distinctive, he's known really for his big idea uh concept, big idea preaching, which uh everyone else seems to uh sort of copy and half teach. Um but um I remember in in class at different times, and other people have said the same thing. You you open up a Bible passage, he starts talking his way through it, and you feel like you've never looked at it before because he's so biblically rich. It's not it's not a sort of communications light model of preaching, it's it's a very biblically alert, biblically sophisticated that's the wrong word, but you know what I mean? Really Bible rich, yeah, Bible interesting, yeah. Um so he's he's massively biblical, but at the same time, he's he doesn't people get the impression that you know he's giving all these instructions. He's not. What he's saying is basically do anything you want, do whatever you think is gonna work. It's sort of an almost pragmatic approach, given a very, very committed view of scripture, that this text is saying something, and having studied it properly and the spirit's been at work in me, now my job is to communicate it to you, and I've got all the freedom in the world as to how I do that. And so if if preaching first person uh in character is gonna be more effective, I'll do it. But you know, if if singing it is more effective, which in my case it never would be, but if it were, I'd do it again, like we talked about with uh George Vrower. That was earlier in this conversation, wasn't it? That there's incredible humility there. Everyone who has ever studied with Haddon ends up seeing him as a friend, and that's that's impressive with someone as significant as him.
SPEAKER_03Very yeah and then what's shaped you as a preacher?
SPEAKER_02What shaped me? I suppose it's a combination of obviously the formal study, which was massively valuable, uh Multnomah and with with Haddon at Gordon Conwell. Um sorry, I I don't want to dismiss that in any way. That that's really made a huge, huge difference. But also I suppose a real excitement and an enjoyment of uh the Bible, of um biblical studies, of uh studying and thinking theology and theologically in recent years. My understanding of really it's not this it's not the kind of ultra you know high, clever, long words kind of stuff. It's really the basics, thinking through the basics of okay, which God is God and what does it mean to be made in his image and what what is sin really and what is God's solution to it? Those basic foundational questions that nobody seems to talk about, wrestling with those has really helped me in my preaching a lot. Yeah, so so I think that plus life plus marriage plus being a parent with you know children, plus being involved in different ministries and being exposed to different cultures, everything feeds in. Um but I would say yeah, I'd say that thinking about those foundational questions and thinking about them biblically has been a massive, massive thing for me.
SPEAKER_03Yes, therefore, preachers need to be theologians as much as uh anything else.
SPEAKER_02But don't preach like a theologian in the sense of don't sound like you've no gained a vocab.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yes, don't add ologies to the end of all your words and ications. But yeah, having having that depth of understanding of who is God and what is sin, and yes. Yeah, brilliant. Evangelistic preaching, is that something different to normal preaching? If so, how would you distinguish it? And what's what's an evangelistic preacher trying to do?
SPEAKER_02In a way, uh there are obviously that there are kind of caricature examples of evangelistic preaching that that seem incredibly different. You know, if you're standing outside a sports stadium shouting at a or you know, shouting in the right sense, you're trying to communicate with a group of people that are passing you by and you've got a 15-second window, then obviously that there are some differences compared to churches, although in churches after 15 seconds people will tune you out. But I think in a sense, evangelistic preaching is kind of the same thing with a couple of the dimensions being extended. And so you still want to be communicating scriptural truth, you still want to be communicating with relevance to the listeners, but there's both of those dimensions are a greater reach. Uh so if you're communicating biblical truth by reference to the Bible, it's going to take more example, more explanation, more it's going to take more work to make sense of that, or or just a real diligent concern to not say things that people can't grasp if they've never heard it before. Having said that, you think of Acts 17, Paul in Athens, everything he said was incredibly biblical. He just didn't quote the Bible. We always hear he quoted poets, but actually he quoted poets and even changed their meaning to fill it with biblical content. So you know, so there's that dimension, but then the relevance uh aspect I think becomes even more important, and maybe you have to reach slightly further. It's easy to preach to the subculture of a church. It's harder to preach in a way that people from outside the church who happen to be hearing you will say, Yeah, that makes sense, and I'm with you. You know, so I think it's the same thing, but it's the same thing with a greater sensitivity.
SPEAKER_03Who does a good job of of preaching, either evangelistically or or in a in a church setting? You mean name names or Yeah, who we we've been talking about it it's something that gets caught. Uh it's a contagious thing. Who can we who can we catch good preaching off?
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean there's there's a lot of good people out there, and with any one of them, I remember um we had this video at uh in the library when I was at Bible school of Haddon Robinson preaching, and uh he he kind of got he got caught, his glasses were in his pocket, and he he didn't have a stand to put his Bible down, and it ended up being this quite awkward few minutes at the start of his message as he was trying to put his glasses on, and uh so sometimes we would go and watch that and and say, you know what, even the greats have their moments where they're really struggling, and uh and so you know you you name names and then someone goes and listens to one that's a complete bear of a message, yeah, yeah. But you know, I I tend to think of different there's so many different types. I mean, you mentioned Mike Reeves earlier. Mike's a very effective communicator, and I love listening to Mike. Um I've never heard him preaching in a purely gen kind of focused evangelistic way. I'm sure he'd do that very well. A normal kind of Mike message that I would listen to he would be intriguing, but he wouldn't come, you know, his content wouldn't, it would feel distant from people who are outside the church if he's talking history, for example, which that's why I say he wouldn't do that in the same way. Um but then I look at someone like an Andy Stanley, um popular preacher or Francis Chan, people like that, and and I think putting aside content, and I'm not saying that I do put aside their content, there's there's some of it that I deeply appreciate, but but putting that to one side, I every time I watch Andy Stanley uh or listen to him, I think that is very, very good communication. It's very it feels very genuine, it doesn't feel like a uh a kind of a preachy voice. Uh he's able to communicate to a church group, but in a way that refers to people who might not be Christian at all without making them feel like outsiders. And so some of those little um sort of small details in what he does, I I find personally my preaching benefits when I listen to him and evaluate what he's doing and try to make sense of it. You know, so I I think there's you know, you there's great preachers, and there may be some great preachers that actually really feed my soul, but I wouldn't want to preach like them, evangelistically speaking.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You see what I mean?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in terms of that that sort of tone and uh yeah, as communicators, that's those are some good tips. Um brilliant. Well let's let's just wrap up by thinking and and uh people can follow up by um going to biblicalpreaching.net and uh and follow you there. You've been sort of blogging there for about seven years, have you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Amazing. Plenty on there, yeah.
SPEAKER_03There is plenty on there, and it's uh yeah, it's a rich feast. So do do uh head on to biblicalpreaching.net and and um and find more there. But uh so you're you're now embarking on a church plant in Chippetham. Um you know, I I work for an evangelistic association, a a charity, and and uh it's very easy for for for us to forget that actually church is is sort of God's mission strategy for the world. Um it's you know, Jesus is building his church. So as as you're sort of planting this church, how do you how do you see church as being kind of God's mission strategy? How do you how do you how do you see the mission of Christ to disciple all nations and just the regular everyday life of um of of your church in Chippetam kind of coming together?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh for us I think we're we're still in the early stages. Um it wasn't something that we've planned for years or anything like that. It's it's come about fairly quickly, and uh we just started meeting at the start of this year, 2014. Um and right now we're just on the cusp of of starting to be more proactive in terms of inviting people in and running evangelistic studies using 321 uh materials that you've got. You know, that kind of thing is it's all very new to us in in the context of this church plant. And so yeah, I I think the the reality, the the excitement for me is this that in a in the church plant context, we've got a a lovely group of people, and they uh normal life is happening, people are having struggles, you know, it's not a it's not a short-term missions team where everyone's there and fully charged. You know, it's normal life, and people are going through their own complexities and struggles and difficulties, but in the midst of that, uh it feels to me like there's a real sense of anticipation. You know, as we pray and anticipate, as we plan and anticipate, a real sense of anticipation because actually it's not about the church functioning, and then once a year we kind of bring in a big name to do something evangelistic. Instead, it's something that's much more owned within the church, that within the church, we want to be growing uh individually, as family units, whatever. We want to be growing in our uh in our own discipleship, if you like, in our own walk with Christ. And as a spillover, we want to be reaching out to our friends and our neighbors, the people we care about, the people we work with. And then as a spillover again, we want to be reaching out to people we don't know, but God's put us here. How can we reach the community? You know, and so we don't even know how that's gonna look yet. Uh we're we're trying not to rush headlong into 15 things where we can only sustain three, you know. So we're we're taking our time praying about uh okay, what's the profile, what what's the evangelistic profile, if you like, of of this church? What how can we be a blessing to this town? We want to process that without rushing, and yet at the same time, um like I said, we're gonna use the 321 materials and and we're gonna uh we've already got people saying they want to come to that. So that's really exciting, and and I I I think it's it's that um it's that sense of spilling over from something that's exciting to us. If we can be infected, you know, if it's it's an awkward term, but you know what I mean. If we can be infected with a love for Christ, go viral, how wonderful he is, then yeah, let that go viral.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And if we're not infected with that, yeah, we don't want the alternative going viral. It is sort of a contagious spread of of sort of legalistic emptiness, yeah, busyness, and come join us and be busy. Yeah, yeah. That's not that's not what church is about. So I think church is a is just a genius plan on God's part that does make us scratch our heads a lot. Are you sure this is the best way? Because it seems that there could be some better ways, but but God knows what he's doing, and uh so yeah, I'm very I'm just privileged to be a part of a church that uh it isn't just the evangelists that are excited evangelistically. Yes, you know, it's others within the church too who are excited about Christ and therefore are excited evangelistically.
SPEAKER_03Yes, and it's the whole life of church together uh doing that. Yeah, that sort of brings to mind one Corinthians as as we sort of close. Here is here's Paul, you know, the message of the cross that he proclaims. Um but what power there is in in preaching is that actually, you know, God calls people through this foolish uh preaching that he that he preaches. We preach Christ crucified. It's those who God is called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God. Um and then he goes on and says, brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards, not many were influential, not many were of noble birth, but God chose you guys. Um as this sort of uh the yeah, the for the spread of this same good news.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and what he goes on to say in the start of chapter two is is really it's not about me and my clever techniques as a preacher. You know, it's not it's not that I'm gonna twist arms and force decisions. It it's actually it's the the power of God at work that changes lives. I'm just a herald, I proclaim, I I declare. And I I think that that takes a massive pressure off. I don't I don't need sales techniques as a preacher, I don't need uh I I want to be persuasive, but it's not my job to ultimately persuade. You know, and that's the exciting thing is that actually we can preach poorly, but as as Jesus is presented, as you know, despite us and around us, the the gospel transforms lives, and that's just an exciting thing to be a part of, isn't it? And not just once a year, like I said, in a big event, but week on week, you know, connection after connection in the normal life, uh normal stuff of life. That's what local church is about, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03Amen. Amen to that. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for spending some time uh with us, Peter. It's really helped us uh not only with your writing, thank you so much for that, but uh but your ministry as as a preacher and in training people to spread this this good news. Um you're a real blessing to the church, and uh, and thank you for sharing with us on the Evangelist Podcast.
SPEAKER_02Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it, Glenn. God bless. Yep, bye-bye.
SPEAKER_01That was uh Peter Mead speaking to him for the for the second time on the Evangelist Podcast. Um it's very refreshing to hear uh Pete talk about that. I mean, he he's obviously you know had a real love and and desire, you know, right from that time when when uh he he was in the middle of that song and heard Here I Am Holy Available, and it kind of challenged him and uh he he's really got that desire to to study the word and and to get closer to Jesus.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, understand that he is possessed, purchased by Jesus, he belongs entirely to Christ. And so his his whole life one of his blogs, one of his many blogs, is called uh pouredout.org, I think it is. And poured out is kind of a yeah, a good a good motto for all of life, taking that from uh Philippians chapter two, verse uh is it seventeen or eighteen, where the Apostle Paul says that his life is poured out like a drink offering. And uh yeah, Peter really models that to people and I was really struck by his stuff on the Bible. I just uh I think it's so true. We we think of the Bible as a chore, I've got to advance the the bookmark a further chapter, and then I've ticked it off my list, and then I can get on with the fun stuff of life, and him just saying, No, we get to meet Jesus in this Bible. Let's let's love it, let's spend time in it. Um so yeah, that was that was challenging and inspirational and and just the right word about that topic, because I think you know, as evangelists we need to be filled up by the word of Christ if we're gonna speak it. And uh and so those words about the Bible were just uh really, really helpful.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, excellent. Good. Well it's uh really good to have a chat to to Peter Mead. I mean he's he's obviously a very busy guy, and doing a church plant is is enough without uh ministry training and writing the books. Yeah. So we'll we'll leave it there for now. But uh if you'd like to comment on this show, you can do so at the web address for this episode, which is revivalmedia.org slash tep71. You can sign up to the notifications for the podcast, and you can share it there revivalmedia.org slash tep seventy one. Thanks for listening.
SPEAKER_03Bye.