On this edition of the Evangelist Podcast, part three of my discussion with Paul Blackham.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you. With Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_01Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. And uh if you've been listening for the last couple of weeks, you know that we're uh working our way through an interview that uh Wading our way through.
SPEAKER_04The treacle uh interview with you, Glenn, and um Paul Blackham. The Reverend Dr. Paul Blackham.
SPEAKER_05That's right. I we had a lot of fun in uh in taping taping the interview, and uh yes, everyone else was wilting in the heat, and Paul and I were just sort of shooting our mouths off.
SPEAKER_04We could have gone on for much, much longer. But I think I left during the the last part of the thing. Not not no, you know, it's just just because my train was going, that's all. That's it. Too hot to handle. That's it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there we go. Anyway, before we go on, uh let me tell you about the free prayer bulletin that we offer. It's a small twenty-four page booklet that tells thirty-one stories of what God is doing around the world. You can hear more about it by going to revivalmedia.org slash bulletin. You can get it free in the post or you can get it via email. So, Glenn, this is the final section of your interview. What does it cover, basically?
SPEAKER_05So we're in the one section of 321, so we're talking about union with Jesus and how that should shape our evangelism, and how that then shapes our discipleship and and life in the church and those sorts of things, and and how having union with Christ in your evangelism really helps you to to integrate people who trust in Jesus into the life of the church and the life of discipleship, that it makes much more organic sense if you've been talking about offering Jesus to people. The Christian life then makes sense. It's not an add-on to the gospel, but just enjoying your life of of union with Christ. And then we start talking about um why you do three two one the way that we do it and and why what are the benefits of inviting people into the story and and telling them the story first and then dealing with their objections. Why do we do it that way around? Is there a place for apologetics? If so, what is the place for apologetics? How do we go about our evangelism if uh 321 is our model? All those sorts of things.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well uh let's take a listen then.
SPEAKER_02So, number one then, I am united to Adam. That's my who I am and all about me, and were I my destiny, I'm going to die. Uh all that, all that comes out of that. But will I be united to Jesus? Let me ask right away, what does that mean? United to Jesus. I mean, yeah, Jesus isn't around, where is he? I can't see him. What does it mean to be united to anybody? Yeah. Like what does that mean?
SPEAKER_05Well, I I might use the champion illustration of the footballer. You are you are one with your champion, his victory is your victory, though you have not expended a calorie of effort in the in the victory. Um, you know, uh we we kind of understand when we go to the airport, you know, if if I want if I want to fly back home, if I want to fly back to Australia, you know, and I see the the airplane at at Heathrow, what relationship do I need to have in order to get back to Australia? You know, would it help if I followed the plane? Would it help if I put myself under the supreme authority of the plane? Would it help if I was inspired by the example of the plane? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's it. You can't.
SPEAKER_05Um No, I what I need to do is I need to be in the plane. And then whatever happens to the plane happens to me. Right. Now that doesn't exactly explain what how you get to be in in Christ, but it it does give us the the idea of what being in Christ is. And I and I think one of the analogies I I bring out very, very quickly in evangelism is is marriage.
SPEAKER_02Yes, right.
SPEAKER_05Um right from almost the first page of the Bible, we talk we hear about Adam and Eve, we're united and they became one flesh. And uh of course, uh Paul in Ephesians chapter 5 says, Yeah, I'm saying that's Christ and the church. Yeah. So we are one with Jesus the way that a bride is one with her husband. And at that stage, I I think marriage is such a fruitful illustration. It's got endless applications. Uh but I I often say, you know, when when my wife and I got married, you know, and in fact you preached at our wedding. Yeah, you were you were there. And um there were there was a point where the uh the celebrant uh was Rico Twice, wasn't it? Yeah and and he said, Um, uh, will you say these vows? And we said, you know, all that I am I give to you, and all that I have I share with you. And at that point there were literally sniggers in the congregation because uh people realize we'd just come out of university and we had absolutely nothing to share with one another whatsoever. But I think in this marriage, the marriage between Christ and us, we are full of debts, yeah, and he is full of riches. But what is it, what is the offer of Christ? The offer is Christ is he says, All that I am, I give to you, and all that I have I share with you. All my righteousness, all my peace, all my blessing, all my place in the family, my inheritance, the whole creation, it's all yours. All yours. And we, if we are one and wooed by the love of Jesus, then of course we say, All I am, I I give to you. All that I have I share with you. And what's that? All our sin, all our shame. You know, and that shame thing again, you know, in in marriage, it's so precious, isn't it? When the bride takes the groom's name. You know, and and and that the name of the groom covers over the bride's old name. It used to be known as so-and-so, yeah, and yet now in the Lord Jesus we have a new name, we have a new identity, a new status, and we are one with Christ forever.
SPEAKER_02I think that's so powerful because when you mentioned about the footballer illustration, or sometimes like that, where you'll have uh, I didn't know, the sometimes um I was hearing recently, and someone was saying that the child was I don't know which footballer it was, or I mean, you know, maybe it was Wayne Rooney or something, and they were like, they're absolutely full of Wayne Rooney. Right. It was like they're full of him. What did they mean? That he had they had posters up, they studied him, they listened to everything he said. And there was a way in which they said they were sort of modeling themselves on him. They had like a kit with his name on or something. And I thought that was quite insightful because it's like saying, that's what it is, that a person would say, Here's Jesus, yeah, and here I am, yeah, and I've understood that you know I'm helpless, and I I'm good, I'm I've only got death, I've only got shame, I've only got sin. I keep messing up, and I even when I think I won't do that again, I just do it again, and I know it's because of what I am deep down. But look at him, yeah, and I don't know how to live, and then he says, Look at my way, and then he tells us his way and shows us it, and then he says, Now let's put that old way to death, yes, and here's a new one. And I go, I love that. And then we sort of are so caught up with him. We want people to go, he's just full of Jesus. Full of Jesus in that same sort of way where you've abandoned your own identity and sort of trying to take on his identity.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and and there's a there's an order to it as well in that you know, Martin Luther sort of got the Reformation going in 1520, you know, wrote on the freedom of a Christian, and and really his key kind of illustration of it was the marriage one. And he says, and he said, you know, imagine that a prince marries a prostitute. Okay. Now the the the day that they get married, again, the minute they exchange vows, that prostitute is a princess. Instantly. Oh, yeah. Instantly. Even though in her heart, she's quite, you know. She may not have really changed very much. She might not have to change very much. But over the course of a princess marriage, she is a princess. Instantly, instantly she is in her groom and united to him, right? But then over time, absolutely, she becomes to learn the ways of the court and she learns and she becomes, you know, more and more like her bridegroom. And I think that's that's the the order of things, isn't it? First, we're in Christ. Yes. Straight away. Straight away, in Christ, and then the more we understand his love, receive his love, then we become more and more. He is in us and fills us and we become like him.
SPEAKER_02I found that so powerful as I've never been to church at all, and come with huge issues of shame and guilt and mess ups and things like that. And it's just so wonderful that it's like, well, I sometimes I was speaking to someone just this, just like yesterday, no, day before, at church, and they said, I couldn't come to church for the past few weeks because I was in such a mess. Oh no, yeah. And it was great to be able to say, hang on, like you if you know that's when you do come. Yeah. Because literally, Jesus's whole thing is come to me if you're weary and you're worn out and you're a sinner, and your life's the biggest mess up ever. And that's why the very last thing he does on the cross, there's a guy who's a total mess up and he's being executed for it as a criminal, and the guy cannot do anything to sort his life out. He can't do it, and he all he just says is, Jesus, will you remember me? Yeah, and that's it. He's like, all he's really saying is, my humanity is this. Yeah, it's cursed and finished, and I've got no hope in it. Yeah. When I look over at that guy, that's a different sort of humanity as he looks across to Jesus. Yeah, will you take me? Yeah. And Jesus said, I will I will, I do.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I do. I do. Yeah. And therefore the churches that we have are ones that are full of broken people who understand shame. And and I and I think that's that's another thing that I've enjoyed about doing 3-2-1 is that one is a truth that leads very naturally to church. So of course, because you know, it's the cr it's the church that is one with her with her bridegroom. Because the marriage illustration. Because of the marriage illustration, all of a sudden it's very uh a very organic way of saying, hey, if you want in on Jesus, and I hope you do, then you're in with me and you and all these other sinners, we're all broken people. But in in that way, it's a very organic invite to church. It's a very organic thing that, of course, you can't have Christ without having all the other people who are in him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because he's the head, the body is the church. So if a person says, Well, I'm united to Christ over I'm united to Christ individually. I don't really go to church. No, dude, no, no, that this is his body over here. If you want to be united to the head, get here's his body coming towards the world.
SPEAKER_05You know, I'm the vine, you're the branches, and I'm I'm just this little thing.
SPEAKER_02I'm a sitting over here in my own private plant pot. No, no, no, no, no, you can't be.
SPEAKER_05How could that be? Yeah. And therefore, I I've enjoyed that because sometimes in evangelism it can be almost like the fine print.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_05Someone becomes a Christian by themselves, they kneel beside their bed and or they individually read a tract and something, oh, now I'm a Christian. Well, what's the connection with church then?
SPEAKER_02There isn't one. There isn't one.
SPEAKER_05And then all of a sudden you have to say, Oh, by the way, I've I've got to introduce you to this thing called church. Oh, what you never told me anything about? What's what's the organic connection of you must go to church with so many gospel presentations?
SPEAKER_03Nothing.
SPEAKER_05Well, in so many cases, there's there's not that much. So I've enjoyed the organic unity of saying being invited to Christ is being invited to church. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I love that. That you want to just say, How can I be united to Christ? He's the head of the church, come to church. Yeah. Head and body. Beautiful. I love that. It's so much more a theme all the way through the scriptures. If you were, I don't know, if you lived in a thousand BC and you were like, How can I be saved? Well, let's come and join the church. Come and join Jerusalem. There's rules for how you could join and become a member of the church then.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I love that. That's so helpful. Yeah. So it's been great talking about three to one. We've taught so much theology, so many big truths on the Bible. But if we were to go out now, could we really just start talking about Adam, Jesus, church, shame, all these sorts of Christ, the cross, resurrection? I've been told, I hear it all the time. No, what we need to do is start with like um common sense, reasonable things that any reasonable person would believe in. Start with those, and then let's try and build up towards these kinds of things. What's all that about, Glenn?
SPEAKER_05What is all that about? I mean, that can't be the way of doing evangelism, especially because, you know, in the Bible, um, knowing God is very much twinned with the way that we're saved by God. So throughout the Bible, it's always saying that the only people who know God are those who are saved by God. And to not be saved by God is not to know God. And it's almost like the same thing. In fact, John 17, 3, Jesus says, salvation is knowing God through him. So if salvation and and knowing God are kind of the same things, then surely, since we are saved entirely by grace, it's all God descending to us to offer us salvation. Are we really going to say that knowing God goes the other way? What are we saying?
SPEAKER_06Yes.
SPEAKER_05You know, if we don't earn our salvation, if it if it's not me sort of, I, you know, I'm, you know, I give blood and I'm nice to my sister and I help old granny as across my road, and I just need a little top-up by Jesus, and then I'll be saved. Well, that that's kind of what people are saying when they're saying, well, we know this to be true, and therefore there's that, and therefore from this to that, and there's a hop, skip, and a jump to that, and then I just need a little top-up, and then I'll know God. And it's it's exactly the same kind of works righteousness that's applied in the area of knowing God. Right. It can't be that.
SPEAKER_02So that's that's kind of my So is that with the Adam idea that when we were thinking about the problem that we're in Adam, that is in our minds. That there's a fundamental problem where people go, no, look, I'm a reasonable person, and the Bible, if the Bible's really gonna say, Whoa, whoa, whoa, you're in Adam, there's something that's fundamentally wrong with the way you know and think. Yeah, isn't that right?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, 2 Corinthians 4, 4, you know, the God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers. Or, you know, 1 Corinthians oh sorry, um uh Colossians 1.21, isn't it? Colossians 1.21, that's enemies in our minds because of our evil behavior.
SPEAKER_02You know, Ephesians 4, the futility of the thinking of unbelievers.
SPEAKER_05So some we can sometimes think that our minds are our least fallen faculty. According to Paul, it's probably the most fallen faculty. The most fallen.
SPEAKER_02So the Bible doesn't really go, look, you're a reasonable-minded person. This is how it is. The Bible was really saying, you probably are gonna deny everything that we're gonna tell you, but we're gonna tell it you anyway, because it's true. Yeah. And we're gonna pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes, open your ears. Yeah. I suppose Jesus does say that, doesn't he? Quite often when he starts preaching, he'll say, those who have ears to what's that about? Why does what does he say?
SPEAKER_05He says, let him hear, and and fulfillment of Isaiah 6, which is like, you know, to those on the outside, it's all a mystery. To those on the inside, the meaning is given. And and and and he even says you've got to become like a little child to be one of these insiders who receives that personal knowledge from him. If you try to remain outside of Christ and piece it together yourself, you'll never get it.
SPEAKER_02Would it be fair to say that the perhaps one of the reasons that in perhaps in modern age there's so much reliance then on evidence and human reason, these things, is this too much to say it's a lack of the doctrine of the Holy Spirit? Oh, interesting. In in that Well, in that because uh like when I think about I always think about some of the I read the early church guys a lot, and they went into in incredible situations. Irenaeus of people would say, okay, here's a whole country full of complete pagans who've never read the Bible at all. And you're like, dude, you can't do that. You need massive training, and I'm gonna teach you how to present evidence. I'm gonna give you a massive training in the culture of the of the Gauls or the Celts or something. And he's like, no, no, don't worry about that. I know about Jesus, I'm just gonna go and tell them about Jesus. And he does, and there are churches everywhere. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_05It's able to do that. Well, it's that whole Spurgeon thing, isn't it? You know, you know, defend a lion, says Spurgeon. I, you know, I know defend the gospel, he says. I would rather defend a lion. Let the lion out of its cage, the lion will defend itself.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_05And really what I'm trying to do is kind of let the lion out of its cage, out of his cage, and let him do his work by the Spirit, because that we we believe that the Spirit works through his words.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05As the gospel word is proclaimed, that is God's power for salvation. So I mean the the other the other reason why why I'm not so good at or not so interested in the whole stepping stone approach and building it up is because I'm not good at it. And I'm I don't think I'm that clever. I can't clever enough. I can't bridge from from, you know, they're talking about the European Union. I I need to be able to bridge from that to a discussion of the atonement or you know, we're we're discussing the offside rule in the pub, and I can turn that into a proclamation of Jesus, your last defender. You know, and I think you've you've got to be really cheesy to evangelism like that. And you've got to be a lot cleverer than I am to be to be able to bridge in in that sort of way. So evangelism for me is it's not so much build stepping stones from the Christian, you know, from the non-Christian world over to the Christian house. And it's not so much throwing stones at the non-Christian house. I'm not really interested in that. Really, it's hospitality. It's come on over to the Christian house.
SPEAKER_03Come and see.
SPEAKER_05Do you have five minutes?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Can I give you the grand tour of the house? You might think this is nuts. From the outside, this looks like complete nuts. I understand that. I understand that. I used to think it was nuts too. But let me give you the grand tour.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And then afterwards, if you've still got some questions, we'll talk through those questions according to the grand tour, according to 3, 2, 1. But have you got five minutes? Can can I indulge you? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like the woman of Samaria. She's just like, hey, I just met this guy, Jesus. He told me everything I ever done. Can I just tell you about it? And then everyone's like, really?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And she doesn't, I don't know what her theology is like, but she's just really excited about Jesus and talks about him. Yeah, exactly. Or the guy in John 9.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I don't know. They ask him really complicated questions. He hasn't got a clue. He goes, I don't know. This is what I can tell you. I don't know. It's just about Jesus. Isn't that great, isn't it? And that way in which, as you say, let me just tell you what I do know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I'm not that clever and I haven't got all the answers, but I do know this. Yeah. And it's incredible what an impact it has if we just do that.
SPEAKER_05And do it in the context of the local church. Because that's that's really what it is to say, come on over to our house. Come on over to our house. Let me give you the grand tour. I know you think it's nuts right now. Of course you think it's nuts. You know, any any anyone out there would think it's nuts. Of course they would. But let me give you the grand tour, and then maybe you'll start to see things differently. Maybe the questions that you ask will start changing. Maybe you'll start changing.
SPEAKER_02And I like that that because church is the place where people aren't judged. So, and so the one place really where people won't be judged. And so we always say to people, oh no, they'll say, I can't come to church because I'm an atheist, or there's this thing I've done, or I'm in this sort of relationship. I'm like, don't worry about that. This is a place we literally, the Jesus commanded us not to judge people. Come along, you will be obviously no one will have to you. And people come along, and they'll maybe initially really strongly atheist, and usually they can be a bit defensive. They're like, Well, you know, I I don't believe in any of this. That's all right, don't worry. Have a cup of tea, sit down, see what it's like. Everyone loves you. Yeah. And then over the weeks, they do start to change without having a big and without someone going, here, let me sort you out on that issue or this issue or this issue. Yeah. In a way, they're in, they come in and they're welcome, and then they hear about Jesus and things change. They ask different sorts of questions. And isn't that exactly what one Peter means when he talks about apologetics? Because the word apologetics, that's what loads of people say. Oh, you can't go out on the streets talking people until you've had loads of training and cross-cultural this and bridge building that. And I sort of think, I don't know whether any of the apostles had any of that, but Peter wrote about it. What's a biblical understanding of apologetics?
SPEAKER_05Apologetics. Well, the whole thing hangs on one word, apologia, which means giving an answer. And in 1 Peter 3, verse 15, it says, uh, uh, always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have, but do this with gentleness and respect.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_05That verse, I mean, it comes in a context. You know, the whole paragraph begins in verse 8. Finally, all of you live in harmony with one another, be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. And do you see that that church context? And then, you know, the reason for the hope that you have, what hope's he talking about? Well, he begins the letter by saying, Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. In his great mercy, he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. So the hope that he's given is Jesus is alive and I've met him. And as people see how I'm bearing up under suffering, they see the quality of church relationships, they ask, What's it all about? You say, Well, Jesus is alive. He is alive. Let me let me proclaim that to you. Um So I I think that's kind of biblical apologetics, if you like.
SPEAKER_02To literally be able to say, Aha, you see, you know, we I see what church person comes to church, I see what it's about. Can you explain how it is that you live like this and think like this? Yeah. Yeah, I can. And then you don't have to go, let me come up with some philosophy or archaeology or this other thing. Just say, to be honest, this is what we believe about Jesus and lay it all out.
SPEAKER_053-2-1. 3-2-1! Well, you could do three. I mean, and and three-two one is just designed to be that kind of tool that at that point you can say that. And and I think what what I like about it is it's it's not really about trying to crowbar a spiritual connection into a conversation, but are you able with uh a non-Christian work colleague or or family member to say, hey, you know I'm a Christian. Can I take five minutes at some point? It doesn't have to be now, but can we get a coffee at some point? Can I take five minutes and explain that to you?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And it doesn't have to be a cringy kind of a thing. But it's it's not really trying to crowbar Jesus in or build uh uh uh stepping stones to it, but it's it's just to say, will you take five minutes and can I just give you the story and see how you react to it? I think that's what evangelism is telling the story.
SPEAKER_02And so as we come to the end of This. I know quite a few other people who will be watching this are people who are trying to learn a lot more theology and they may be just starting out and they're like, I want to learn a lot of theology. Is this 321 really is a is helpful because instead of it being something over here, it's right at the center, isn't it, of learning theology and studying the Bible. So that in a way, the more theology you study, the more Bible you learn, you fill out your ability to ex-Go on, I'm saying what you should say.
SPEAKER_05No, I I I hope it is that. And and you know, I think my evangelism was transformed about sort of 12 years ago when I met you, actually. I was I was doing um open-air evangelism on a Thursday night. Yeah, I remember those times. And uh and looking back on it, I was very keen, I was full of beans, but what I was offering to people wasn't always the bread of life. I think it was quite often it was kind of uh sawdust seasoned with chili sauce, you know, not really, not really life-giving, but given a bit of pep, you know, sort of thing. And and you got wind of this and and you you suggested that there's this other thing on a Thursday night you said that you were doing, and you were doing a theology course that talks about Trinity and it talks about Adam and Christ, that talks about union with Christ, it talks about all these things. Will you for a season lay off the evangelism and come and come and actually learn what the gospel is? Because we uh we always multiply the faith that we have, and if we don't have, you know, if we've got dodgy understanding of the gospel, we're only going to create dodgy Christians if they come to Christ. And so that was so helpful to me to see that actually going deep with Trinity, going deep with all these issues, um, was not escaping from evangelism, but it was aiding the evangelism that I had. Um that that's really been transforming the way I think, not only about the gospel and evangelism, but also about theology and growing in the Christian life. If you can't think about these things simply, then perhaps you don't really understand them. So that the attempt of 321 is not really an attempt to have this gospel presentation over here and theology is over here, but it's this just this attempt to be as simple as I can about the theology that we ought to believe.
SPEAKER_02And what I find so helpful with you, Glenn, is as well, uh, on your blog and all the things and with your books, the King's English and things, it's where you can say the whole Bible, really, anything you get in the Bible, you can sit down with your work colleague or family memory, really, and be able to go, can I have we just got a minute? Because let me just show you this. And any part of the Bible, it's not as if, oh, the only bits you can show to the non-Christian are the four bits. It's like, no, anything is full of Christ and full of hope and insight and truth. And if we understand it, we can share any of it with anybody, and they and they will enjoy that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, completely. Because we're not sharing a system, is it? We're sharing Christ Himself. And I perish the thought that three to one becomes a system that we share instead of Christ. It's just an attempt to say actually, Jesus shapes what we think about God. He's three. Jesus shapes how the world goes. It's two. Jesus shaped how I think about myself, union with him. It's just an attempt really to clear away systems and just focus us on Jesus.
SPEAKER_02Do you know, Glenn? That's so helpful. Thanks so much for your time. And I hope if you're watching, you'll be inspired to share that. Even right now, can I challenge you? If you're watching this and you're a Christian, you love Jesus, why not, before the day is finished, see if you can actually take five minutes with someone to explain. Three, two, one.
SPEAKER_05Did you hear that, Glenn Strivener? Somebody give that guy a podcast.
SPEAKER_01I quite like Paul Blackham, actually.
SPEAKER_04Well, everyone prefers Paul Blackham.
SPEAKER_01Totally. Totally. So if you'd like to do as uh as Dr. Paul Blackham says and share it, we'll uh put a link the show notes to three two one. Why not? Why not? It'd be a good thing just to go on and share it with.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, put it on your Facebook wall and see what happens. Just a couple of weeks ago I met up in the pub with somebody who, because somebody had put 321 on their Facebook wall, got into a conversation, I joined the conversation, said, Hey, do you want to meet up for a drink? And um and it went somewhere really cool. So, you know, that could happen with you. Why don't you give it a go?
SPEAKER_01Just uh put it on and say what do you think of this or a new way of looking at life? Jesus or yeah. Okay. Well, thanks very much for listening. Uh if you'd like to go to this episode's web address, you can go to revivalmedia.org slash tep66. You'll find all the links to do that. Also uh the one to give us a rating and review. Pretty please. Okay, thanks very much, and see you next time. See ya.