On this episode of the Evangelist Podcast, it's part two of my conversation with Paul Blackham. The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you. With Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so this time we're carrying on from where we left off last week.
SPEAKER_02Cliffhanger last week. Well done for making it. The blogs were all aflutter. What's gonna happen after three? Some predictive four. They were wrong.
SPEAKER_03This is the jam part of the uh sandwich. That's it. The middle section that we're gonna be looking at two.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_03So tell us a little bit about this video that we're gonna be listening to.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, it is a video conversation, so at times we'll sort of uh point out to the blazing sunshine of Brighton Beach. Um and it was, it was incredibly hot. Um and we have the lights on and everything. But um so we're talking about two, that uh the world is shaped by two representatives, and we're gonna talk about why we talk about Adam in evangelism, what benefit it has, how we go about it, and what happens when you don't do it.
SPEAKER_03Okay, just before we do that, uh I'd like to tell you about our free daily prayer bulletin. It's a small 24-page booklet that tells 31 stories of what God is doing around the world. You can get it free of charge by simply going to revivalmedia.org slash bulletin. Okay, Glenn, so uh we're gonna take a listen now to you talking to Paul Blackham about the two of three two one. Alrighty.
SPEAKER_01So we've thought about three. Let's think about two. Now, obviously, when you set the two up and listening carefully and you said I want to talk about Jesus, and I'm like, yeah, I I thought he was gonna want to talk about Jesus, he's made that quite clear. Um but Adam? You can't seriously, if I'd be a little bit of the devil's advocate again, talk about Adam. That's like the one of the most controversial subjects in the world. Like, nobody believes in Adam. Surely that's at least that's one thing that although the Bible probably in some sense mentions Adam, can't we just push that to one side? Because isn't that raising problems? Is it necessary to talk about Adam?
SPEAKER_02It is necessary to talk about Adam because we need to frame the problem with the world, not simply in terms of our behavior, but in terms of our being. And when we start talking about Jesus and Adam, or Adam and Jesus, we start talking about the problem that we face as a race, not simply in terms of, you know, I mess up and I I simply that I fall short of God's glory, uh, but that in in terms of as I come into this world, I'm I'm part of a broken world around me, but also a broken heart within me. So what Adam is trying to do, and I and I try to park issues about the historicity of Adam for a little while. We'll we'll talk about what I say later on, but but what I try to do is try to make emotional sense of it. I I I just basically say, um, you know, we can all understand Adam's story because we've all got a family tree, don't we? Yeah. And at some point in your family tree, somebody broke off from, you know, living in one part of the world and maybe they survived the war or they left the convent or they, you know, they were sent away, and and suddenly your branch of the family tree broke. And for me, in 1788, you know, Anne Forbes was uh my ancestor who stole 20 yards of printed cotton.
SPEAKER_01Is that right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, convict stock. Oh, Glenn, yeah. It's a badge of honor in Australia. It's a badge of honor. But she got she got sent to Australia, and um and and really in her getting sent to Australia, I was sent to Australia. And and it's and in a sense, you know, 6,000 people have actually descended from Anne Forbes over over the years, and and actually that one crime and that one exile has affected us all, and we're all born Australians, yes. Although I think I think crime does pay because she left the set of uh Oliver Twist and round wound up on the set of Home and Away.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, nice.
SPEAKER_02Good exchange. But she she was, you know, she went, you know, exiled from the mother country. And I was born in exile from the mother country, and what we're saying fundamentally is that we're born into a situation in which we're we're far from God. We don't know God. We we've all had the experience, and I say this to non-Christians, we've all had the experience of praying, and it just feels like the prayers just bounce off the ceiling. Yeah. There's been a disconnection. So it's like we're cut, you know, cut flowers that have been sort of wrenched from their natural source, and and we've got a bit of life in us, but we're perishing, and you know we're perishing, don't you, non-Christian? Of course you know that we're perishing. And then I talk a little bit about you know the characteristics of Adam, how he was suspicious of God, and you know, aren't you suspicious of God? And how he was self-justifying. Yes. You know, and aren't you self-justifying, and and how he was selfish, and aren't you selfish?
SPEAKER_01Um he hides too.
SPEAKER_02And he hides, yeah, yeah, that's yeah, all a part of it, and the shame of it, and and just the stuff-ups, you know. Don't just things just they they just sometimes I I I'll say such loving words to my wife, and then the next minute I'll say something really, really harsh. I think, I think what's that about what came over me? Yeah and actually nothing came over me, it came out of me. Came out of something really deep, and I think at this point I'm really trying to put my finger on the problem with the human race is not just my deeds, my behavior, it's my being. Yeah. There's something really broken about it. I think that connects. It connects.
SPEAKER_01And I found that when I because where I live, there's I live in an area where most of my neighbors are either Hindu or Muslim, and the concept of shame is very, very powerful. Yeah. And when that story with Adam, and the the first thing it hits them is the concept that the shameful. Yeah. And that's a very that's an important thing that is often neglected when we talk about the the uh the Jesus and how he's held what he does to clothe us, yes, and he covers our shame. Yes. Now that is it, so people often in Europe get the idea maybe of guilt more, yes, but shame, no, but where I am, and the Adam story is like immediately more accessible because of shame.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and so yeah, so in a more Western context, maybe the price is paid speaks to us in a certain way, but where shame is the issue, you know, Christ covers you. Covers is so important. Um I think as we and that really is to do with that that that being issue. There's a stain, there's an uncleanness to me, rather than just that there's a record of offences that stands against me.
SPEAKER_01I think that uncleanness thing, because again, I'm reading through scripture, there's so much to do with uncleanness and washing away uncleanness, which isn't always picked up on adequately in our preaching. But this is a good way into doing that, isn't it? So going, so there's there's guilt and that, but there's also cleansing, and you get all that by starting that point.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01But let me just ask you though, because it does sound like if we go that my problem is Adam, doesn't that kind of I'm I'm responsible for myself, Amni? I've got a look, it's me. That's the problem with me, isn't it? Yeah. Like, it sounds like a bit like I'm helpless if the problem's Adam.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And in one sense, absolutely, we are helpless when it comes to closing the gap between ourselves and the most high. Um now, absolutely, I'm I'm responsible in this world and and and must be held responsible in this world. And and yet to to imagine that that I can take responsibility for my path to heaven, now that's that's the real blasphemy that we need to fight against. And that's why the the being problem needs to be needs to be front and center. But I'd also say, you know, there's an organic thing to the way that Jesus speaks about trees and fruits. You know, a bad tree produces bad fruit, a good tree produces good fruit. And and and you know, when I say those terrible things to my wife, it does come from me. Yeah. You know, in a in a sense, I'm helpless to do otherwise in in in one very limited sense, but in in another sense, it's truly me. That's me with the handbrake off. And I know it. Yeah, I know that's me. The trouble is if if we want to take everything into our own hands and say, I am, yeah, all the problem is to do with me and my choices. What do we communicate about the solution? You know, if the problem is me and my bad decisions, immediately you're communicating that, oh surely, surely the correct response to all that is I need to just clean up my act and start making some good choices.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02And and quite often gospel presentations almost go into that. Yes. Um so that that's why I think it's so important to deal with the the issue of being, and that's where Adam comes in.
SPEAKER_01Like the what I am thing, and that there's that sense in which we look at the world, and in one sense, people think we're all individuals, you know, and that we're in today's society, lots of people, I'm my own person, I totally am different than everybody else. But in a way, the God looks when we look back a bit, we're like, we're not really very different from each other, and we're all kind of driven by the same passions and we're determined so much by our families.
SPEAKER_02And the older you get, the more you realize you sound exactly like your parents, and the more that freaks you out. And and yet, you know, oh I was born in the 20th century in Canberra, in Australia, and how different I would have been with a different family, different. And so many aspects of my life have nothing to do with my choices. You know, we always think we're we are you know the result of all our choices. Yes. And you know, we introduce ourselves to people and we say, well, you know, I I chose to take this job and I chose this wife and I choose to like this music, and yet, some in some ways, those are quite superficial things about who I am. You know, I never chose my family, I never chose my genetic makeup, I never chose my upbringing, I never chose the century in which I live, the culture in which I was brought up, and these things just shape us massively. And the Bible says, yeah, there's a massive century in which we're shaped by our family, and at the top of that family tree, Adam Adam has taken us in a bad direction. Yeah. Good news, Jesus invites you into his family.
SPEAKER_01So if we then is that maybe taking us towards the the one? Yeah, well, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, I I I I guess keeping going on the two. Yeah, let's carry on too for a little bit. Just for one little bit, is because when Jesus comes, uh again that that being problem. The being problem is is really dealt with by Jesus. That the in his baptism, he he comes and and he is numbered among the transgressors, jumps into the Jordan River with us, to be in solidarity with us, to be one with us, to um to be our champion, if you like.
SPEAKER_01And and just as Adam was our sort of champion who took us down into death, and you know, so so that in that story that with us the baptism and the whole way in that little bit where because of course after the baptism as well, when Jesus heads off into the wilderness and the devil comes and all that, it's very good. What's going on? Because that does sound suspiciously like the Adam story.
SPEAKER_02Very like the Adam's story. You know, when is the devil ever audible in giving temptations to people and and and you know, actually, well, in the Garden of Eden, and again uh with with the temptations? And so what we have there is is is Jesus being the second Adam. And and where where Satan tempted Adam to serve himself and to you know to to go to the tree for himself, to serve himself, feed himself. So Satan comes to Jesus and gives him the temptation, you know, will you feed yourself? Will you live for yourself? Will you do that? And and Jesus, the one man who resists Satan in all those sorts of ways and undoes Adam's kind of work and as our champion. And again, I I think people get championed as well. I remember you you you gave me a great illustration of uh of footballs, yeah. You know, so so the in the transfer window you want the the one man. I'll give you a give you a one-man illustration.
SPEAKER_01Well, no, no, I can't remember, but it's just that sense in which you you all want this one man, and then when he comes around, you've invested all your hopes in this one guy. You say, Oh, if we have him, and then when you get him and he comes out, and then the whole stadium erupts because he's out there doing the stuff for you. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02He's your champion, he's our champion, and he lifts the trophy for you. You haven't expended a calorie less than anything. We just watched. You jump up and down and you sing and you rejoice. We've won. We've won. We've won. And then I say to the non-Christian, that's how Christians feel about Jesus. We've won! You know, he's the one man who came into our team to turn things around. We were we were headed for relegation. And then Jesus, you know, scores the winning goal against Satan and sin and death and hell and and rises up again and he says, My victory is your victory. And a Christian is just someone who says, Ah, you're my champion. You're my champion, and your victory is my victory. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So that's what's so good, that the sense of like with Adam, everybody dies in Adam. The Bible says that. So when a person maybe goes, you know, there's that sense of no, no, I'm just with myself. And sometimes people sort of think, if I eat healthily enough and do enough exercise, I'll never die. Like, there's almost the assumption that goes, no, no, literally, everybody in Adam will die. Yeah. And that's happened with a hundred percent correct like that. Nobody's ever evaded it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. And we're all perishing. And we need to recover all that language that the Bible uses of death and perishing. And sometimes we use language of fall, even though the Bible doesn't really use the language of fall, far more seriously, we're dead.
SPEAKER_01Dead.
SPEAKER_02Cut off, estranged, alienated, uh perishing. All and and I think when we start using categories of being rather than simply behavior, all that language comes back into play and it's so fruitful in evangelism.
SPEAKER_01Brilliant. And the cleanness, and I like the cleanness one that we mentioned earlier because I'm finding a lot of people who've never been to church know what it's like to be unclean. Yeah. And that sometimes have obsessions about cleansing because they've done things or things have been done to them that make them feel unclean, and they cannot clean themselves because it's at that deeper level of who they are.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, completely. And and we need an answer to that, which Jesus doesn't just take away the misdeeds that you've done, but he offers you new birth. And quite often in evangelism, I'll I'll talk to people and they might know anything about the Bible, but they know the phrase born again.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they do, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I'll start saying to them, have you ever heard the phrase born again? Well, this is what I'm talking about, with two. You know, you're born in Adam, and you share in his selfishness and his stuff-ups and his shame and his self-protection and his self-justification. You share, you share in that, don't you? You know that you're estranged from God. You know that. Well, here's the new birth of suffering. Wouldn't you like a new life? Wouldn't you like a new life? Yeah. Free from all that shame and that's the dream every new year.
SPEAKER_01When people are like, I want a new life, and I'm gonna make it happen by losing half a stone or something.
SPEAKER_02I I often get that in evangelism. People say no one wants to hear about repentance in evangelism. Oh no. Everyone wants to hear about repentance. Yeah. You know, you go to a news agency and you you scan the magazines, and it's all saying repent, repent, repent, because it's all saying be new. Yeah and new you, you know, six steps to new abs and you know, declutter your life and it's not.
SPEAKER_01I find at service stations you go uh on motorways, you go to the service station, they that's when you're vulnerable because you've just wasted huge amounts of money on terrible food, and then you stumble to look at the bookshelf, and it's like, be a better you, isn't it? Like use your time more efficiently and do it's all about actually preaching repentance is good news.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's good news. Here is a new life to be. You can't summon it up yourself. Yes, but it's a gift given to you. Don't you want to be new? Of course you do.
SPEAKER_01Wow. We've had three, that's the living God. We've got to start with the three who actually are God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And any other starting point will take us to a different God. Yeah. We want to go to this God, so we start with Jesus, who is describes himself and is presented as the one sent from the Father in the power of the Spirit. We cannot talk about Jesus without talking about the three who are the one true living God. Right. The two is Adam and Jesus, and that makes sense of myself and my helplessness and everything about me. And it's the good news because there's an alternative, which kind of leads us to the one, that's the final point about this, which you said is who we are united to Adam. That's whether we we don't get a choice. Who are you going to be united to? You already are united to Adam. We're that's how we're born. We're all biologically descended from Adam. Oh, what before we do that, let me just deal with that, the biologically descended from Adam.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What if someone goes, Yeah, that isn't true?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. What do you say? I think at that point I'd go to 1 Corinthians 15 and just sort of say, well, okay, step into this world for a minute. I'm not I'm not trying to build stepping stones towards a Christian understanding and say, this is reasonable, therefore that's reasonable, therefore that's reasonable. But I am saying, come on in and hear this story. And within this story, according to 1 Corinthians 15, according to the Apostle Paul, um uh 1 Corinthians 15, verse uh 21, since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man, for as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. And I just say, do you see that within this story, you might not agree with this story, but within this story, um, if Christ rose, Adam fell. That's that's kind of what Paul's doing. He's saying, Adam fell, Christ rose. So what I'm saying to you, if Christ rose, Adam fell. That's what I And so let's let's talk about, you know, do we do we think Christ rose from the dead? And I and I'd I'd you know present things from 1 Corinthians about whether Christ rose from the dead. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think that's the way in. The way to do it. Your Romans 5 would be a similar way of just saying the Bible's saying this is how things work. And there's and that the story about Jesus versus Adam, it comes up in Hosea, all the way through the Bible, is that sense in which this is what happened with Adam, this is what happens with Jesus, and the Bible invites you to see things this way. Yeah. And yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So step inside that story and see if it makes sense rather than stay out. Go to the human genome project and figure out whether there's an ancestor like that.
SPEAKER_01That's not what I'm interested in. That's not gonna tell you anything important about what's wrong with us. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But if you meet the risen Jesus, then you know that the story is true of the Devon Phil.
SPEAKER_01I know. The reason I know about Adam is because I know about Jesus. That's like he's the starting point again. Yeah. Beautiful.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so that's two out of three two one. Mm-hmm. And your discussions with uh with Paul Blackham. So uh next time we're gonna be looking at one sort of yeah, it's my favorite bit of the interview.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, my favorite bit of the interview, thinking about um how oneness with Jesus should shape our evangelism, but also why we do 3-2-1 the way that we do it, and what benefits there are to kind of inviting people into the story uh in order to answer their questions. So we'll we'll speak a bit about 3-2-1, and we'll also speak speak a little bit about apologetics and what is the place of apologetics in evangelism, what is the place of the mind in answering questions, what should be our approach in evangelism? What approach should we take? What techniques should we use? All those sorts of questions. So, yeah, stay tuned for one.
SPEAKER_03Okay, well, if you'd like to comment on this show, or you can actually see the video you've just listened to, just go to this episode's web address, which is revivalmedia.org slash tep65. Well, thanks for listening to the Evangelist Podcast. See you next week. Bye.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Andy. I I can I just say on behalf of everyone, we don't say this enough, but thank you.