This week on the Evangelist Podcast, we're asking the question: why bother with God? The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you. With Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_01Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. We've been going through this series on uh hot topics, and we've been looking at uh subject of religion last time. So we come to another question today. I'm not religious, why bother with God? I've had uh people say that to me, you know, oh no, I'm not religious.
SPEAKER_02And that's the end of the conversation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and you they're kind of like, no, I'm not religious. Uh please, you know, move on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's not for me.
SPEAKER_01Uh not for me. I don't want to discuss it.
SPEAKER_02It's for that strange minority of people who actually like going into old Victorian buildings on a Sunday morning and actually enjoy organ music. I'm not one of those people. I I happen to like going to car boot sales on a Sunday morning, so it's not for me. You know, it's it's that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01So it's quite a common response.
SPEAKER_02Oh, oh, it's it's so common it's not even a response. Because people people don't even know that that this is what they're thinking. Um they they don't they they you know the people are so apathetic about the question of God they don't they don't even know that bothering with God is something they're apathetic about. They've never even considered that there might be a God to be bothered about. So absolutely it's it's you know, quite often we might do something evangelistically, you know, what are your big questions for God? And we might we might generate a hundred or two hundred questions that people might have for God, but overwhelmingly people don't have a question for God. They haven't really thought about it. And that's overwhelmingly the position of people today. It's apathy.
SPEAKER_01So what's behind the the question then?
SPEAKER_02I think there's lots of things behind the question. Uh obviously a lot of kind of ignorance about what what um Christianity actually is, and I think certain conceptions of religion and faith, um, and even conceptions of gods uh that exist in people's minds where they they reduce these things to the status of hobbies. So, you know, I'm into jazz music and uh green politics and agnosticism, and you're into punk rock and the Liberal Democrats and Christianity, and that's that's you and and whatever floats your boat, baby, you know.
SPEAKER_01And I think it's I'm not, by the way. Liberal Democrat.
SPEAKER_02Clegg has ruined it for you.
SPEAKER_01It's because of my yellow top, isn't it? That must be it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, canary yellow. Um people think of religion in the way that they think about any other kind of hobby.
SPEAKER_01In a compartment.
SPEAKER_02In a compartment, yeah, it's a compartment that you can live in, and and some people it floats their boat. But that's just a minority in the in the same way, you know, some people like McCrame, and some people like old Civil War reenactments, and some people like Jesus. You know, it's it's that kind of thing. And part of what's going on is this sort of conception of of faith as as just you know something that some people have and some people don't. It's in your genetic makeup, a quality that that some people have and some people don't. Um and if you're born with it, well, good luck to you, and if you're not then never mind.
SPEAKER_01But it's it's more than that though, isn't it? I mean, how how do you sort of communicate to somebody? You know, I mean somebody might say uh maybe they're on a a cruise liner or something, and say, Oh, I I don't believe in boats. I don't believe in ships. Yes. I don't believe in ships. Yeah. Well, you know, this is this is everything.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01This is this is the experience of everything. It's it's difficult to get through, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02How do you tell a fish, you know, about the existence of water? Like, what's water? Like it's it's everything they know. But it doesn't they don't feel wet. Yeah. Of course they don't feel wet. What's wet when you're a fish, you know? But I think but but that's that's a very helpful analogy to use in evangelism, you know. That what we're talking about is not this compartmentalized thing on a Sunday morning that that you could buy into or you could go to the car boot sale. But this is this is the very nature of reality. I mean that's that's that's why, you know, when doing 3-2-1, I want to talk about the story of God, the world, and you. I don't want to just talk about is there a Jesus-shaped hole in your heart? Because some people like they don't they don't feel that. And it's true, you know, there are stages of hunger where you don't feel hungry. There's stages stages of absolute starvation where you're not hungry anymore. You know, all those sort of receptors kind of shut down and your body stops telling you that you're hungry, you're absolutely famished, but you don't feel hungry. There are stages of thirst where you don't feel like you're thirsty, even though you're actually actually parched. In the same way, you know, if we if we just count on the whole world feeling like it's spiritually hungry and spiritually thirsty. It's not it is, I mean they are, they are completely famished, but they're not gonna feel that way. And if we just appeal to whether someone in their heart feels like they've got a Jesus-shaped hole or not, I think that that will be less effective. What we what Christianity is and what the scriptures are is inviting you into a an entire world God, the world, and you. Yeah. I think I think a lot of it kind of goes back to um last week's episode in terms of religious being religious. Yeah, you know, and isn't religion a bad thing. Um and I think part of the groundwork that you can do on this question is just sort of say, yeah, I'm not particularly religious either, because the the thing about religion is that it can be reduced to a time and a space and and yeah, so it's it's Sunday morning between nine and eleven. That's that's when the religious side of my life happens as opposed to um I'm a follower of Jesus, I love Jesus, um, and and he makes me see everything in a new light. You know, he makes me play cricket differently, you know, he he makes me do DIY differently, he makes a difference to my marriage, he makes a difference to this and that. Um it's about getting a bigger vision for the whole of of the Christian life and and and hopefully helping the non-Christian to see that that it's a bigger vision that you're uh asking them to expand their vision rather than narrow it down to this religious thing. Yeah. That's what you're seeking to do anyway.
SPEAKER_01So uh looking at uh Jesus then, how Jesus relates to this attitude of uh not bothering with faith, issues of faith.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, so just as you talk about Jesus, you're talking about a guy who, when he recruits for his kingdom, like the f first stop he goes to the docks and he asks some fishermen to join him. And and like you read through Luke's gospel and and like in Luke chapter four, he gives this um this wonderful kind of uh manifesto of the kingdom, uh, Luke chapter four. Let's have a look at it. Where he's uh he's quoting from Isaiah chapter 61. Um and he says, The Spirit of the Lord is on me because he's anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners, recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free to proclaim the year of the Lord's favour. So who is Jesus after? He's after the poor, the prisoners, the blind, the oppressed. And then he starts recruiting for his kingdom, and you see in Luke chapter 5 he calls his first disciples from fishing boats, and he gets Simon and the other two, and and all of a sudden here's this kingdom that's building for the oppressed and the blind and the poor. And who is it? It's it's this ex-carpenter, followed by three ex-fishermen. Next person he meets in Luke 5 is a leper. Okay, so he heals this guy, so this guy's now in the kingdom, so we've got an ex-leper, three ex-fisherman, an ex-carpenter. Then you've got him healing a paralyzed man. So you've got a formerly paralyzed man, ex-leper, three ex-fisherman, an ex-carpenter. Then you've got a a tax collector, very different kind of guy again. Tax collector was a white collar criminal, really, white collar, you know, nasty bloke. And you and you just see, well, Jesus is just like pulling people in from left, right, and centre. Are any of these people particularly religious people? Alright. Any of these people who would any of these people kind of say that they they bother with God in any, you know. Obviously they're first century Jews and they, you know, they do the thing that first century Jews do. But, you know, are they particularly bothered with you know the s the sovereign lord of Israel? Well, I'm not I'm not so sure, but Jesus Jesus just comes in and he he is able to satisfy the desires of some fishermen, the paralyzed man, the leper, the tax collector, and he goes on, and yes, even even some religious people start following Jesus at some stages. Sometimes even religious people, um, they're a minority. As you read through Luke's gospel, what you see is he eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners. And they they flock to him. So, as with all evangelism, the absolute centre of it is Jesus and his attractiveness. And if Jesus cannot woo a person out of apathy, then you know nothing will. But I I guess it's a it's a case of of saying, you know, that's what I love about Jesus, and then being able to finish that sentence with something real and live and living and and to grab people's attention with Jesus. I think the other thing that Jesus does as we focus on him is he defines what faith is. Faith is not a thing that courses around our bloodstream. Um faith is simply looking at outside of ourselves to Jesus and saying, Ah, he's trustworthy, and we find ourselves trusting him. And so when when somebody says to us, I don't think I could ever be a person of faith, in in the same way. Have we have we done on this episode have we done on on the podcast before um like the analogy with with maybe like an IT consultant? Um So if I if I had a great IT consultant and every well Andy, Andy is my own IT consultant. So let me tell you, dear dear listener, if you have any troubles whatsoever with your computers, uh email Andy.brinkley and uh email Andy and he will he will take care of you know any problem and I and I've seen it, I've seen him deal with problems in the past, um no problem at all. Now if I tell you that and you s and you say, Oh, but I've got a really, really thorny issue. I don't I don't think Andy could could solve this. And if I said, no, I really believe that Andy could solve your problem. What if that what what if this person then said, I wish I had your faith? Wouldn't that be a strange thing for that? I I wish I had your faith in Andy. And like at that stage, what am I going to say to them? You don't need my faith, you just need Andy, right? You need like and this is so when people say to us, like, I wish I had your faith in Jesus, like you don't need my faith in Jesus. You really don't. You just need Jesus. Um and if you saw Jesus the way I see Jesus, and if you'd seen the way he solves problems, then you would also trust him. But you don't you don't need my faith in Jesus. Um you just need Jesus Himself. And so I I think yeah, focusing things in evangelism on who is Jesus can can help with that issue as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So looking at uh three to one and three as the nature of the Trinity, um so how does the nature of the Trinity r uh uh relate to this this uh this attitude, if you like, this question?
SPEAKER_02When I'm thinking about three, I'm thinking about, yeah, the nature of reality. What is ultimate reality? Um and and maybe maybe that's where to go with someone who has never really thought about God or where God might f fit in. But but just start talking in terms of, well, what what do you think is most important? What do you think is ultimate in life? And it'd be very a very surprising conversation if at some point it didn't boil down to I I think that personal connection, love, face to face, heart to heart, mind to mind, that kind of that kind of stuff is is family. It'd be very surprising if somebody didn't say that that that's what's most important in life. Um and and I guess at that point being able to paint a picture for them and and saying, Well, I don't think you're going to have a view of the world that fits your deepest intuitions, anything like as well as this God does, and this this God is three persons united in love. This God is hearts and minds bound together in love, in personal connection. Here is the ultimate family. So as you're doing that, you're you're saying, Well, look, I I think there is a God who makes sense of what you already think of as the highest, the ultimate, and and that's this God. I think also the non-Christian also needs to be shown that they are believing things themselves right now. They they already have these kinds of if you want to call them spiritual views or religious views. They they already have a belief system about the world, and just just talking to them about that and saying, Okay, so you you have these beliefs about, yeah, I think you should, you know, treat people the way you want to be treated or whatever. Where do you think that comes from? Huh, where do you think that comes from? Where do you think that comes from? Um and these kinds of things. So you so you so with three issues you're wanting to take them higher than the than they're usually wanting to go, uh, but then showing them that there's a there's something really attractive up high. Because what they think is up high is um a God who is only interested in you behaving and conforming into a narrow kind of uh cylinder of what a Christian is. A Christian is somebody who goes to church on a Sunday and doesn't swear, and uh the reason they think Christians are like that is because they think God's like that. And we need to explode that with our our view of God.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Okay, so that relates to to three. Then two, uh the two representatives of of Adam and Christ.
SPEAKER_02Well, I I think with two, you've got you've got actually God breaking into the world and saying, Here I am, deal with me. You you must deal with me. And you know, and and two is about telling the story of well here is Jesus coming as the second Adam, and uh you know, he's he's lived our life, died our death, and risen again. What are you gonna do with this man? And you know, Jesus bursting into the world makes God our business. Even if you you're just twiddling your thumbs, you're off in a corner, you don't care. Well God has shown up and he says, Follow me, what are you gonna do with that? And there'll be many and various ways of confronting people with that, but but that needs to be said, and and I think especially as you know, they're they're thinking that faith is just this vague trust that you might have in some higher power or not. Actually what we're saying with two is Jesus has risen from the dead, will you trust him on or or or won't you? Um you're moving it out of the realm of speculation into the realm of investigation, into the realm of evidence, and and saying, Well, have you have you actually considered that there's somebody who who rose again from the dead? That's something that you need, isn't it? You you might be so content in your life, but you don't have an answer for death, do you? Here's somebody who does. You have to check this guy out, because you're gonna go down to the grave. You know, we're all in the queue for the crematorium, and I'm telling you, there's a guy who's come out the other side okay, and and he wants to pull you through. There's one guy you know who can be credibly believed to have survived this whole thing and come out the other side. You need to know this guy, don't you? So at some at some stage people need to be confronted by that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And then uh one, then you are one with Adam. Yeah. You need to move to be one with Christ.
SPEAKER_02And and again, I think like dunderlining that they are one with Adam right now, that's and they they are perishing. They are disconnected from God, and that's a terrible state to be in. Um, yes, in the West you can, you know, have a life that would seem almost like paradise to to the people in three billion people who earn less than two dollars a day in the world. And y and yet you are disconnected, and you know you know something of that disconnection. Now that is just a snapshot of the disconnected life that that exists beyond death. You know, the Bible says we all live forever, and we're all gonna take our lives before God. You really want to take your own life before God and and and own that and own the consequences of your own life. Do you really you know? And I and I think, you know, if if ever there's a time for for talking about our perishing state, of talking about hell, talking about the wrath of God, I th I think it's it's when apathy is is um overwhelming a person. Uh and and I think there is a there's a time and a place for just saying, listen, you can't be apathetic about this because you know, you're gonna die and you're gonna face God.
SPEAKER_01Because th I mean that's the big shift, isn't it? The uh people who uh start off saying, Well, I'm not religious, you know, don't don't believe any of that. And then come as a full circle and come back to realise that you know they're in a very perilous situation.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And again, it's not it's not even that they they are teetering on the brink of the pit and and you're sort of dangling their their toes over the flames. It's it's it is that you are disconnected from God right now. But you get you're gonna have to you're gonna have to face up to your whole life and you're gonna have to take responsibility for your whole life before a holy God. You don't you don't want to do that, do you? You don't have to do that. You can be one with Jesus. Here is here is this Jesus who wants to take responsibility for your life and has done so on the cross, wants to give you his life, and then you know, and then the the the wonder of being one with Jesus is that you don't have to be religious to be converted to Christ. In the same way, you don't have to believe in marriage in order in order to get married, you just need to meet the right person. Like many, many is the sworn bachelor who has said, I don't believe in marriage. What's converted them to marriage? Have they have they woken up one morning and said, actually I've I've done some study and uh I've read some books on the on the fine institution that marriage is and I've finally been convinced that actually it's a it's a proper institution. I should throw my whole weight behind it. Is that is that what converts them? No, where to find the life now I must find somebody to inflict my new love of marriage on. Poor woman. Um but no, that's not how they get converted out of their, you know, apathy for marriage. How are they converted from their apathy for marriage? They find a person the right person. They find the right one. And uh and that's that's the thing. We we're not just sort of pro-marriage in general, and we're not just pro, you know, becoming well pro-Christianity in general. We're saying, well, here's a person, and he will convert you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02He will convert you to Christianity and being one of those weird people who, you know, on a Sunday morning might go to church and all that sort of all that sort of stuff. Which again brings it around full circle to to the question of who is Jesus and letting him do the converting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Excellent. Right, well, we're gonna leave it there. Thanks very much for listening this week. If you have any questions or comments about today's show, just go to the episode webpage, which is revivalmedia.org slash TEP60. There'll also be a link there to rate. Give us a rating on iTunes, that'd be great if you could do that. Uh, it helps us to get seen by more people. And also, you can get our free daily prayer bulletin. It's a publication that we do uh every other month. Thanks for listening and uh see you next time.
SPEAKER_02See you next time.