Today on the Evangelist Podcast, we're asking the question: what about other faiths?
SPEAKER_00The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you with Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_01Hello again to the Evangelist Podcast. This is a show where we delve into issues regarding the good news of Jesus. I'm Andy Brinkley, and with me is my good friend and colleague, Glenn Scrivener. It's me, hello. How are you, Glenn? Yeah, very well actually. You went to Poland.
SPEAKER_03I went to Poland. That was uh that was an amazing time. Yeah, so the European Leadership Forum, which is about 700 uh leaders uh who are involved in gospel work in Europe. And uh no, it was fantastic people to meet there. Uh I also had the the sobering experience of of uh visiting Auschwitz, which was a couple of uh hours away from the the hotel where we were. But um yeah, that was that was stunning to see. Yeah, no, I was I was I was amazed by my time there, sort of uh walking around the place, and I I don't think I'd put too much thinking into it, but two thoughts just were constantly coming to mind as I went round Auschwitz. We had a very good tour guide and he was just taking us through the the kind of clinical barbarism of the Nazis, um, and you know, exploiting the corpses and and you know, shaving their hair so that they could use them in textiles and all this all this sort of like horrible stuff, and and like two thoughts kept coming to me. One was this is evil, this is evil, this is evil. And then the other thing that kept on just coming up, I I just kept on s almost saying under my breath, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And and I just think that's that's interesting. I I don't think I was particularly reflecting in a Christian way about about Auschwitz, but I think I think the experience of it was leading me to think, A, this is evil, and B, somehow I'm part of it. Um and I actually leaving Auschwitz, you know, you you you might think, you know, how can you believe in a good God after Auschwitz? Well, I guess the real question is, how can anyone believe in humanity after Auschwitz? No. And actually, it's my Christianity that allows me to make sense of those two thoughts. That's evil, yeah, it is evil. You know, there is a standard of good that is above us and that judges us. And you know, it's it's not you know you can't just play the social Darwinism card, and you can't just say, Well, we're creating a master race, and so if some people get hurt, they get hurt. You can't say that. Not not if Jesus is Lord. You say this is evil. Um, but you also say, I'm sorry, because you also see there's evil in your own heart, and you're you're caught up uh as much in the as as part of the problem as you are as part of the solution. And so So that that was that was a sobering uh experience, but I'm very glad I did it.
SPEAKER_01And uh the so the conference was about sort of evangelising Europe and uh and that. So uh and a three-day conference, was it?
SPEAKER_03It was a bit longer than that, but I came back early for to do some other things. But um no, it was a great, great time. And uh and tomorrow I've got to I've got to preach six sermons in two hours tomorrow. It's that'll be fun. So for the sermon.org.uk, which is uh something that Richard Buse sort of runs, yeah, lots of lots of little 15-minute sermons. And so I've got to I don't know which sermons are gonna take with me, but uh it's at some point I've I better figure out what I'm saying and uh and deliver six sermons to camera.
SPEAKER_01So excellent. So uh we've been sort of going through this series of hot topics and you know questions that uh we might get asked about our faith. And the one we're looking at today is about other faiths. If someone says, Well, okay, I understand you're a Christian, what about other faiths? I mean, do you think this is a question that gets asked a lot?
SPEAKER_03It does, and it gets asked by different people in different ways. So I think for non-Westerners it might be one of the biggest questions in evangelism. So if you're talking to someone from a Hindu background, a Muslim background, someone Chinese perhaps, those people will have that question probably as their number one their number one question. Fine, Jesus, great, wonderful, um, but not the only way, surely. I mean that that was really rammed home to me when I um I I I think I said this on the episode when we talk talked about homosexuality when I was at a a Chinese restaurant and we were talking about Jesus and I was about to preach on 1 Corinthians 6 that says, Yep, homosexuality is out, but so is idolatry. And there were the the the owners of the place there was a Western guy and a Chinese um woman, and the Western guy just couldn't stand the fact that homosexuality was out on this list, but he understood why idolatry was out, you know, and that that was fun. But the Chinese woman, yeah, sure, okay, I I can understand if you want to have that rule, okay, homosexuality out. But why is idolatry out? And you know, you look around the restaurant and there are all you know lots of Buddhas around and that kind of thing, and and so the issue of where does Jesus fit among all the gods of of the nations um is a huge one um with non-Western religions and it might be the the number one issue you have to you deal with in in those settings. I think with Westerners people have a slightly different reason for asking the question. I think they're coming at it from a an angle of if tolerance is the great virtue, then it sounds very intolerant, or if if pluralism is the way forward, that you know no no religious view should be have any sort of privilege over any other, they're all equally valid. I think that's that's kind of a sacrosanct idea, that's a sacred cow in in the West. So people in the West ask the question in a different way, but but still it's it's an important question in evangelism.
SPEAKER_01And other religions such as Islam or whatever would disagree that other faiths are are valid as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01They're exclusive too, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well that's that's what's quite refreshing about speaking to to Muslims is that they're you know they're happy being exclusive, just as Christians are, and there's not a lot of that, you know, hey, it's all paths up a mountain man stuff there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So what do you think is behind the question?
SPEAKER_03I think if it's being asked in the West, I think one model of the question is what I've just mentioned, the whole paths up a mountain thing. And I think probably uh in religious studies classes all over the country right now, people are being taught that different faiths are different paths up a mountaintop. And at the top of the mountain there's some conception of God, salvation, the good stuff, and the different religions are different ways up the mountain. And no path is better than any other path, they all take you to the top. And I I I think that's kind of where people are coming from, and then they ask the question, Well, why are you privileging this Jesus path? Sure, it works for you, but you know, why why why say that it it it has to be the path for everybody? I think that's the thinking that goes on behind the question. Because the the trouble with that thinking is that it's it's nonsense. Um you know, there there isn't a mountain. There there isn't there just isn't an agreed definition of what's at the top of the mountain. As though, you know, it's obvious that we're all working towards the same definition of God, the same definition of salvation.
SPEAKER_01I mean some religions don't even believe there is a god.
SPEAKER_03No, I mean Confucianism doesn't, most schools of Buddhism don't. Mo loads of Chinese um religions don't, you know, don't believe in in God. So hang on, aren't you being really imperialistic, saying there has to be a God at the top of the mountain? Because loads of religions don't don't believe in God. So it's interesting, I mean you go onto somewhere like Wikipedia or or um uh where did I go for these statistics? I forget where I went, but probably Wikipedia, but um to try and figure out what the top five religions are. Um the top five religions in the world, uh Christianity is number one with about two point one billion, uh Islam is number two with one point six billion. Uh then there's unaffiliated, that's sort of atheists, agnostics, secular people, that's one point one billion. Uh Hinduism is about a billion, Buddhism, it's hard to put a number on it, but around about half a half a billion. Uh so between those top five, Christianity, Islam, atheist, Hindu, Buddhist, between those top five, that's six point three billion members of the of the human race, that's ninety percent of the human race. So that's interesting. Like in the top five, you actually account for 90% of the world population. But what I like to do is actually go through those religions just just briefly and and just ask some really basic questions, like how do they see God? How do they see the future? How do you get to that future? Um, and and just see how these different religions answer the question. I think I think we'll see. There is no mountain, actually.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so uh how do they see God then?
SPEAKER_03In these different religions, well I I guess like with Christianity, how do they see God? Okay, Father, Son, Holy Spirit bound together in love. Okay, that's that's you know the Christian position. In Islam, how do they see God? Well, it's the most anti-Trinitarian faith, like in the in the world. You know, written into the Quran is say not three. Allah is alone, he does not beget a son, nor is he begotten. So, in Islam, it's absolutely uh anti-Trinitarian, absolutely anti-the the Christian God. Obviously, with with atheists, how do they see God? Well, they don't believe in God. Uh with Hindus, I mean, how do they see God? Well, it it's difficult to kind of categorize Hindu Hinduism. In some ways, it embraces monotheism because the sort of Brahmin uh is this sort of impersonal deity who transcends all the other gods, but in another sense it's massively polytheistic, um, hundreds of millions of gods. So, again, you know, a very different concept of of who God is within Buddhism. It is a non-theistic religion, and many of the schools are actually atheistic. So, just on this really basic question, like what's at the top of the mountain? Okay, who is this god who these five religions are all talking about? Wildly different.
SPEAKER_01All up different mountains.
SPEAKER_03We've got different mountains. That's exactly it. I don't think it's like we're all on different paths up the same mountain. I think it's it's we're all in a valley, and there are different visions of God and salvation, of what the good life is. And and we're in the middle, and we can look around, and maybe I'd I'd say you know, four of the five are mirages, right? But to the degree that you move towards one of them, you're moving away from the others. And that should be obvious. When you just do a comparative study of these religions, it should be obvious that what they're saying about God is wildly, wildly different. And to the degree that you buy into the Islam thing, you are saying no to the Christian thing, you're saying no to the Hindu thing, you're saying no to the atheist thing, the Buddhist thing. To the degree that you're saying yes to Buddhism, you're saying no to the other things. That should be really obvious when you when you just ask the simple question, how do you see God?
SPEAKER_01So, sort of comparing how they see the future, then, what how do they compare?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so what's the good future that these religions are sort of looking towards? Um, within Christianity, um, the future we want is this world put right. Jesus returning to to raise us up on the pattern of his own resurrection, to bring in a new heavens and a new earth, a restoration of this world. Okay, that's that's the good future we're looking for. Uh within Islam, it's an unearthly paradise. So if you're a good Muslim, then you're looking forward to a paradise that is unearthly, that is away from here. It's full of quite carnal pleasures, you know, you've got your virgins and your virgins and your rivers of wine and all that sort of stuff. Um, but it's not planet earth. There's no future for planet Earth in Islam. Uh within uh atheism, uh obviously what's what's the future? It is, you know, the sun's gonna explode and the universe is gonna fling out into heat death, and that's that. You know, so you know death, but there's no future for for planet Earth. Uh within Hinduism, uh there's what you're looking forward to is the release from samsara. Samsara is the cycle of birth and rebirth. So you've been reincarnated a thousand times and you you just say, Stop the reincarnation, I want to get off. Um just escape from this. But it uh again, escape into uh a very non-material kind of future. No no future for planet Earth. Buddhism, very, very similar. Nirvana is um it's it's the word for being blown out. So like a candle blown out, snuffed out. Or one of the images that that Buddhists sort of use for the good future that you're looking forward to is that you want to dissolve into the cosmos like a drop of water into the ocean. And that's you dissolve into the ocean of being. You know, no future for planet Earth, you know? So just just ask these five religions, like what's the good future? Christianity says, okay, this world re-renewed. Islam says an unearthly paradise, atheism says death. Buddhism, Hinduism both say not planet earth, but kind of almost almost non-being is is is the future.
SPEAKER_01And and how do you make your way to that future?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, that's the big thing with these different religions. And and actually, under Christianity, how do you get to this future? Actually, a mountain is a lousy way of describing salvation for a Christian. Because we don't believe we climb up to the mountain. We believe that the Son of God came down and met us in the valley, and like he did all the saving stuff down here in the valley of the shadow of death, and and it's not about us ascending up to God, but it's it's about God in Jesus descending to us. So, how do you get this future? Jesus comes down, does everything, and offers it to you for free. That's how you get this future. Within Islam, well, uh actually the mountain is a good illustration for for the Muslim. You climb the mountain, you climb the ladder through the five pillars of Islam, and you you be a good a good Muslim. And and if you're a good Muslim, then you can hope for the best uh in all of that. So, with uh atheism, how do you get the future? How do you get this future of heat death for the whole universe? What's wonderful about atheism is it's very equal opportunities, it's it enfranchises the world. Yeah, everyone gets it. Everyone gets death.
SPEAKER_01For free.
SPEAKER_03For free! So that so it's similar to Christianity in that the offer is for free and for everyone, uh, you can die. So that's how you get the future. Within Hinduism and Buddhism, it's karma, isn't it? Karma, what you do, comes back to you. So, in all these different, you know, conceptions of how you get to the future, very, very different. Very, very different. It's not paths up the same mountain at all.
SPEAKER_01Uh is there a gracious judge at the end?
SPEAKER_03Well, this is interesting, isn't it? Like, I w when I compiled this list of the five religions, and I I decided to ask these questions, you know, how do you see God, how do you see the future, how do you get this future? Um, it just occurred to me that with all these five religions, there just is no gracious judge at the end of it all. So if you if you're worried, you know, how can Jesus Christ judge the world? That's a horrible idea to think Jesus Christ will judge the world. No, not at all. This is the best news in the world. This is the one gracious judge there's ever been. And we're saying, yeah, he is this he is this judge who gives you so much better than you deserve. With Islam, Allah does not give you better than what you deserve. He he only he's just just and he will, you know, he will give you what you know what is fair. With with atheism, you do not get better than than you deserve. You know, you you get death, and everybody gets death. And what a merciless judge death is. Like you cannot plead with it, you cannot bargain with it, there's no getting out of it. Merciless judge. Um with Hinduism, Buddhism, you've got karma. It's not a gracious judge that's judging you. So actually, it's uh you know, if you could vote for a judge at the end of all things, you can't. But if you could, I think if you've got your head screwed on, you want to you want to vote Jesus. Yeah. He is the gracious judge at the end of all things.
SPEAKER_01Well, we've been sort of going through 3-2-1 as the the the gospel presentation to to address these topics. So if we look at Jesus first, and then we'll go 3-2-1, the different points of that. So uh regarding uh what about other faiths, what does Jesus bring in?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And just just to say, by the way, if you don't know what 321 is, uh we'll put a link on the on the show notes and and uh go to 321.org and you can you can check out um this sort of gospel presentation. But um, so yeah, how do how does Jesus interact with with other faiths? I I think the claim of Christianity is that Jesus is this unique figure who comes into the middle of the world and says, check me out. There are many religions in the world in which God is distant and never comes down, um, and then you you're just left to speculate about what this god is like. In other religions, the gods come down, but you don't particularly want to get close to them because they they they seem fairly nasty to be honest. Um But with Jesus you've got this unique figure, the you know, the one who got everything going in the beginning, the one who's gonna wrap everything up at the end, he comes into the middle of history and says, check me out. And I think that's unique um within world religions, that you can actually you can actually get in touch with ultimate reality um in a very direct and hands-on way. One John chapter one says, you know, that which was from the beginning we have seen and touched. Um so with with Jesus you have the chance to get to know ultimate reality in a way that other religions just don't offer it to you. So so that's the first point that that Jesus gives us uh a unique kind of vision of what the good life is, unique as distinguished from all other religions.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well uh obviously 321 starts with three, and uh talking about the Trinity. Uh wha how does this relate to to other faiths?
SPEAKER_03Well, we've already seen, you know, that the nature of God in all these other religions, within Islam, nature of God is utterly anti-Trinitarian. Um and you know, within within the other faiths, uh Trinity is absolutely unique. No n no one else has dreamt up you know, this this idea of Trinity. Th there are there are some interesting kind of distortions of Trinitarian thinking. Like for instance, within Islam, sort of Allah has um the Quran sort of almost pre-existence with him, um, eternally, you know, with him, uh, on tablets of stone from before the world began, and he also has a a spirit as well. So he's you've kind of got Allah and His Word and His Spirit, which is which is interesting. Um I think there's something there's something basic about reality that is being made by the triune God, and I think there are reflections of of of Trinitarian patterns all throughout creation. But as for as for the actual doctrine of God that Christians believe in, we we have a unique God. Um and and that God is either the real and living God or he's not. Um He can't be both Trinity and Allah, for instance. Uh it's gotta be one or the other. So so have a look and and see whether you know the Christian can uniquely say that God is love because God is three persons united in love.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well, two is the two representatives between Adam and Jesus. So w how does this relate to the question?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So you've got Jesus coming in as the second Adam to take responsibility for us in all our mess, and and to take responsibility for this world. I think that's what's interesting about two is that Adam takes the world down, Jesus comes as the second Adam into our situation to grab us by the scruff of the neck and to take responsibility for us and to take us through the death we deserve and out into resurrection. But it's it's this humanity, this world that has a future because Jesus grabs hold of us um in all our mess and and and wants to deal with us. And so it the salvation that Jesus offers is is utterly unique. Um I love uh Johnny Erickson Tata. She was the um the woman who age 17 dived into was it a river or a pool or Yeah, and broke her spinal cord. Yeah, became a quadriplegic from the age of seventeen and and so spent the last sort of forty plus years um in a wheelchair. Um but when she speaks of of of different religions, she says, only Jesus will give me a new spinal cord. Only Jesus will give me a new spinal cord.
SPEAKER_01What does she what does she mean by that?
SPEAKER_03So within within Islam, you know, if she became a good Muslim and it turned out that Allah was right, um she would have an unearthly paradise in a disembodied kind of kind of a way. It would it wouldn't be her body set to rights. And certainly with the other religions, it certainly wouldn't be her body set to rights. Only Jesus gives us this hope in resurrection, that he takes hold of all that we are in our brokenness in Adam and puts that nonsense to death but right raises it up again so that we have a a physical bodily future. Umly Jesus will give you a new spinal cord. And I th and I think you know that that again is something that's really attractive that sets Christianity apart from all the other religions.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Okay then, uh we're nearly there. Uh one. Who are you one with? One with Adam or one with Christ?
SPEAKER_03And I th again I think there's a a beauty to the uniqueness of this. Within Islam uh the word Islam just means submission. So the closest you can ever get to Allah is to be a good slave. Interestingly, within Hinduism and especially within Buddhism, you've got this idea of oneness. It's it's like that terri you know the terrible joke, what do you say to the uh the the Buddhist pizzeria? Make me one with everything. Right? Yeah? Okay. That works, it works as a pun. Um although there's this hilarious YouTube footage of a guy trying to tell the Dalai Lama that joke, if he was Australian actually. And the Dalai Lama was visiting Sydney or somewhere, and uh and he said and he and he tried to tell a joke through an interpreter and it just it takes forever, and it is absolutely cringe wording. But anyway. Um But within within Buddhism, you've got this idea of oneness, uh oneness with the cosmos. You kind of dissolve into reality the way that a drop of water d dissolves into the into the ocean, but that's not a very personal oneness. So with with something like Islam, you've got no oneness at all. With something like Buddhism, you've got a oneness that actually destroys your individuality, destroys your particularity as the person that you are, and you just kind of you mush into the smoosh of of the cosmos. With the oneness Jesus offers, you can be you can be one with God, but you can still be you. And in this sort of married kind of relationship, all that we are, we give to Christ. All that he is, he gives to us. And we we remain ourselves and he remains him. But we have this free relationship of grace that no other religion knows about. This free relationship in which we are one with our Maker. And and again, you know, nowhere else offers this. So it just it just seems to me that on this question, what about other faiths? Sometimes we don't do enough comparative religion. Sometimes we just we don't actually look into all these other faiths. And when you do, you you just come to the the just the basic factual analysis that only Jesus saves. Like literally, only Jesus saves. Allah does not save you, He rewards good Muslims. You know, in Buddhism and Hinduism, you don't get saved ever. Your karma determines whether you go up or down. It's just literally true, it's just a true fact of comparative religion that only Jesus saves. And when you just look into these things, when you when you see the beauty and the goodness of Jesus, sometimes it can be really helpful to actually compare and contrast all these other faiths and to say, listen, in the Pepsi challenge, these guys they just they they don't cut the mustard, they really don't.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So uh in summary then, if someone just came up to you or you know you were talking talking to them, where would you start with all this? Where where what would your first kind of angle be?
SPEAKER_03It's always got to be the person of Jesus, isn't it? It's always got to be the person of Jesus. And and like because a lot of people are worried that you know the religious people are gonna cause World War III somehow, that the the big punch-ups between the great faiths is is the great danger. I I think you need to sort of say, well, listen, when when Jesus interacted with other religions, let me show you him interacting with the Samaritan woman in in John chapter 4. Do you see how loving he is, how gracious he is, how clear he is. Salvation is from the Jews, he says to this Samaritan. It's absolutely clear on the truth. But his first move to this woman is, Do you want the living waters of my spirit? Do you want forgiveness? Do you want fullness of life? Or the way Jesus, you know, handles the Roman centurion and and people like this, he deals with these people with with great grace but great clarity, that what he is about is very different to what they're about. But nonetheless, even though they're different, he's going to die for his enemies. And I guess if people are worried that religious devotion is gonna cause all sorts of war and that kind of thing, you you just say, Well, look at Jesus. The more extremely you are like Christ, the more likely you are to die for your enemies. Not to kill your enemies at all. He says, put away the sword. Those who live by the sword will die by the sword. So the answer to all these different religious truth claims is not pluralism. Pluralism doesn't work. It doesn't. Like there is no mountain, that idea is a mirage. Okay, so that doesn't work. What might work, your only I think your only hope of of of getting along with with all the religions in the world is actually we'll come to Christ. Because here's here is one who doesn't merely tolerate other faiths, but actually loves people from other faiths, dies for people from other faiths, but doesn't do it in the sense of of just smooshing all the differences. He stands for who he is, and as who he is, he loves the world. I think he's our greatest hope for interfaith dialogue, actually.
SPEAKER_01Well, uh next time we're going to be looking at a related subject and asking the question, isn't religion one of the world's greatest problems? So uh we'll go a bit deeper into that next time. But uh, we better leave it there uh for the moment. Uh thanks very much for listening to the Evangelist Podcast. If you like listening each week, we'd really appreciate a rating and review on iTunes. It helps us to get seen by more people. Just go to revivalmedia.org slash iTunes and it will forward to the podcast page there. Also, don't forget to get a copy of our free daily prayer bulletin. It's a small 24-page booklet that tells 31 stories of what God is doing around the world. Hear more by going to revivalmedia.org slash bulletin. And finally the web address for this episode, where you've got those other links, and uh you can comment on the show, you can share it, just simply go to revivalmedia.org slash tepfifty eight.