Today on the Evangelist Podcast, we're asking the question, is it true?
SPEAKER_00The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you. With Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_02Hello again to the Evangelist Podcast. This is the show where we delve into issues regarding sharing the good news about Jesus. I'm Andy Brinkley, Media Producer, and here is my good friend and colleague, Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_03Hello, everybody. How are you doing, Glenn? Yeah, not too bad. Good. Yeah, getting ready to go to Poland. Yeah. For a few days. Can you speak uh Polish? No, not a not a word. Ginqueer? I don't even know what that means, but I know you you say it. Jinqueer. I don't know. I remember it because of gin. I don't know. I think I'll just stick to English.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, just stick to English. So uh what what's going on there?
SPEAKER_03You got uh there's a conference there called the European Leadership Forum. Okay. And they they speak Polish today? I think it's all English speaking the conference, so yes, but um from lots of different uh European countries and uh and some Americans as well, and uh I'll be a token Australian, so yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Great. So uh Glenn, we've uh we've been looking at hot topics such as homosexuality, love and judgment, hypocrisy, suffering. And this time we're gonna look at is it true?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, is the gospel true.
SPEAKER_02Why do we need to ask this?
SPEAKER_03Well, I guess we we definitely need to ask this question, but the big issue is like when do we ask this question and and when do we attempt to answer it? Uh and and sometimes I think we can we can try to answer the is it true question too early. We can go in all guns blazing with sort of biblical biblical manuscript evidence and archaeological digs and uh you know Aquinas' five arguments for the existence of God when actually the non-Christian is not sure whether they want God to exist or not, not sure whether this is good news or or not. And at that stage it can kind of appear to the non-Christian like you're kind of trying to force them into a corner and you know get their arm up behind their back and until they go, Okay, Jesus is Lord, fine. Um in that really reluctant way. Which I'm not sure is the best model of evangelism. If it's worked for you, then Buddy, keep going. But I I think like Blaise Pascal back in the 17th century, in his own day, interestingly enough, he said in his own day, men despise religion, which you know, you think it's 17th century Europe. Surely like they don't despise religion. They they love it so much they go into war with each other over it. But he he was noticing men despise religion and and um he said they hate it and they are afraid that it may be true. So that's really interesting, isn't it? When you when you think about if we spend all our time trying to say it's true, it's true, it's true, it's true, and yet the whole time the non-Christian is thinking, but it's all it's awful, it's awful, it's awful, it's awful you're not perhaps proclaiming the good news the way that you ought. And um Pascal goes on to say, make the gospel attractive, make good men wish it were true, and then show them that it is. Make good men wish it were true, then show them that it is. And and I think that's a a little more healthy way of of doing things, that you actually say why this is good news, paint a picture of a a reality in which Jesus is Lord and say it's it's quite attractive, isn't it? And then say, and it's reality, this is no, this is actually true rather than force them into acknowledging the truth of something when from the outset they despise religion and they're they're afraid that it might be true.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because if we sort of force people, if you like, to follow God whether they like him or not, yeah, whether whether they like it or not, they're not truly following the Lord because you know they're only forced and it's yeah, you know, th they can't be Christians if they're forced to. Yeah. It has to be a willing thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, and to argue them into the kingdom. Yeah. Because, you know, if you know if you're meant to love God and love your neighbour, and and if the you know the first commandment is love God, then a series of arguments aren't going to make you do that. And it sort of betrays a funny view of humanity that we are we'd like to think of ourselves as these head-driven rationalists. Certainly we'd like to think of ourselves uh in that way ever since the Enlightenment, and I and I think, you know, we think of ourselves as Homo sapiens, which means the wise men. The and that's what distinguishes us from the animals, apparently. Apparently. What makes us different from for most of the animal kingdom is that we have the power of reason, and reason is the is the number one, you know, aspect of our personality that that we in the West tend to prize. But I d I just don't think that's how human beings tick, and that's important to know in evangelism. Uh who was the evangelist who said that, you know, the mind is not a d uh is not a debating chamber, but it's a picture gallery. Um and we get captivated by visions of reality. Um the the imagination of the heart, the Puritans used to be huge into the imagination of the heart, and actually the job of the preacher is to capture the imagination of people, and that's where real change happens. And so one of the great reformers in England, Thomas Cranmer, who sort of wrote the the prayer book for the Anglicans and and um a great gospel man, uh he when when somebody tried to summarise what he believed about human beings, they summarised Thomas Cranmer's view of humanity as what the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_03In that order. In that order. And uh well, certainly the heart first. Whether the will and the mind come through sequentially or together, um what he was really saying is the heart is driving things, and what we want to be true will shape the way in which we seek truth, actually. Uh and what the heart loves, the will chooses and the mind justifies. We often think it's the other way around. We we often think that the mind just goes around rationally, coolly, calmly, assessing all the facts and the details, and coming together with a c you know, a a rationalistic model of the world, and then we make rational choices, and then at the end of things we might, you know, have some feelings or not. It's it's exactly the other way around. And I think Cranmer is just looking at the the scriptures uh that are just so heart-driven, you know. Um, you know, guard your heart, says uh Solomon in in Proverbs, it it is the wellspring of your life. Or Jesus says negatively, he says, you know, out of the heart come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, and and so whether for good or for evil, it's the heart, it's the fountain of all things. And I think in evangelism we need to be capturing hearts and then showing them that it's true.
SPEAKER_02Um Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people, a delusion that makes people happy. Was he right?
SPEAKER_03Uh I think he's pointing to that view of humanity that that actually we do get captured by things that we want to be true. We just do. But that's not just a truth about religion. Actually, we all become captured by a vision that we very much then hope to be true, and then we'll spend quite a lot of our efforts trying to justify. That's that can be true of religion, it can also be true of atheism, it can also be true of Marxism. Marxism could become the opium of the people if you want it to be true enough. But I think, you know, Marx is is sort of putting his finger on that we all we all wish certain things to be true, whether or not they are. Um Aldous Huxley was an interesting figure, brave New World author, and and um uh he established sort of a philosophy of meaninglessness in his early years. That's how he called it, which you know sounds a lot of fun at parties, isn't it? Let me tell you about the philosophy of meaninglessness. Later in life, he um he had quite a few more spiritual leanings. Uh I wouldn't say he was a Christian at the end, but he certainly abandoned the philosophy of meaninglessness at the end of his life. Um and reflecting on that, on that early part of his life, he he said um in a journal, he said, I had motives for not wanting the world to have a meaning. Consequently, I assumed that it had none, and I was able, without any difficulty, to find satisfying reasons for this assumption. So, to begin with, there are the motives. He doesn't want the world to have meaning, and then he assumes, therefore, that it doesn't have meaning, and then he's able to find justification for that after the fact. And I think it's just that same confirmation, what the heart loves, the will chooses, the mind justifies. So that's that's so that's a problem for everybody. Yeah, religion could be an opium, it could just be a fantasy that you wish were true.
SPEAKER_02And it could also be the opposite, it could be, you know, something which is a a drudgery, and you know, you're doing it not because you think it makes you happy, but because you fear what happens if you don't follow on and uh the rewards to come, so to speak.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but even that that even that is is someone's being captured by a vision of you know, it's a pretty ugly vision, but it's a vision of of religion where we trudge along and we try to earn it and and and please the heavenly taskmaster in the sky.
SPEAKER_02And we're doing it because we want some something in heaven which we're you know. Yeah. Yeah, and that's the Which is the opium rather than you know, the current thing.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yeah, yeah. So there's all sorts of people who want to believe all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons, and it's not just religious people and it's not just Christians. But that then raises the stakes. We we better be sure that what we believe is true, and we're not just buying into a fantasy that suits us. That should be that but that's a challenge for the atheist as well. It's the challenge for the Buddhist, it's the challenge for the Muslim, it's the challenge for the Christian as well. Um is this actually true? And this sort of goes back to to what I was saying last episode when we when we spoke about the four R's when people ask questions. You know, when when somebody asks you a question about Christianity, um, we should reframe the question according to the Bible's own terms, because the quest the terms in which the question asked are not the Bible's terms, so you need to reframe it in terms of the Bible's terms. Um secondly though, you need to reflect the question back to the questioner because the questioner also has to has to answer this question. So if Karl Marx comes to you and says, Ha ha, Christianity is just an opium for the people, you know, well, okay. What makes you think that Marxism is not an opium for the people? Um let's reflect that question back. Um and then you relate how you cope with the question, uh, and then you reveal the gospel um through the question. But but I think that that reflecting thing needs needs to happen. It's not it's not just that Christianity is on the back foot having to justify its truth claims. Everybody should have to justify their truth claims. Actually, I think Christianity has some unique tools to be able to do it.
SPEAKER_02Okay, you're gonna share those?
SPEAKER_03Nope. Next week, I'll be a recruit book, huh? Um Yeah, well I well, funnily enough, I I think Jesus himself, revealing three, two, and one, yeah, um, give us give us some really handy tools in order to check out the Christian story and figure out whether it's true.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Okay, well, we've been looking at these hot topics in the light of three, two, one. Yeah. Uh the gospel presentation. Let's look at how Christians answer the is it true question. And uh we start with Jesus and then we go three, two, and one. That's right.
SPEAKER_03So Yeah, so Jesus. How does Jesus help us to check out whether Christianity is true or not? Um have I have I done on this podcast this unhappy hypothetical about we we get uh kidnapped by masked gunmen and No, I don't think you have. Okay, so imagine, imagine you and I we get we get kidnapped. Men in balaclavas and big, you know, machine guns, and they herd us into unmarked white vans, and as they speed away, um there's all sorts of other people with us, all of us are hostages, and they inject us with a drug that makes us forget who we are, what we've done, everything we've said, thought, you know, in just wipes wipes the hard drive, okay? And knocks us out. We all come to and we're in this gigantic sort of room, this this big factory space. And there are no exits, no entrances, no windows, no doors, there's nothing, just us in the room, and we're all starting to come to, and and of course at that stage various people will start to ask questions, you know, who am I? How did I get here? What's the nature of the room? Is there anything beyond the room? And all sorts of people will start to come up with different theories, and you can imagine, you know, one one group of people would say, you know, I I I know what's on the outside of the room. I've I've thought about it, it seems really rational and sensible to me. I think there's there's just some pink penguins swimming through a sea of soft cheese or something. And and that's what's out there. I've thought about it, it makes sense, and so you know, those are the penguinsists, and that they they know what's on the outside, it's penguins all the way. And then the other side of the room says, Don't be ridiculous. No, we've we've uh done a lot of thinking about this ourselves, and we realise that there's just a gigantic flamingo out there with lasers for eyes just scorching the earth with its bird-like fury. And so th those are the flamingans, obviously. And there is obviously arch rivalry uh between the flamingans and the penguinsists and bloodshed and And in that scenario, imagine that somebody gets up at the back of the room and just says, guys, honestly, you know pink penguins through soft cheese, giant flamingos, nonsense, nonsense! Look, the room is all there is, all there was, and all there ever shall be. Okay? Let's just shut up about what's on the outside of the room and let's just get on with making life in the room as good as possible. Now, out of those three, you know, groups, who do you want to side with?
SPEAKER_01Penguins, definitely. You're a penguinist. You make a soft cheese.
SPEAKER_03That's it. I th well well for me I'd I'd probably go with that pragmatic person at the at the end. Yeah? Yeah. Cool. Cool. Andy, we need to chat. We need to chat. So I think I think most people would at that stage just think, actually, maybe the pragmatist at the end had the right idea. Um let's just shut up about what's outside and get on with the ground. But, okay. Into this scenario, imagine imagine bits of ceiling start caving in, and then all of a sudden you hear this sound, and somebody has appeared in the middle of the room. Right. And he dusts himself down and he and he says, I'm from the other side, and I'm here to rescue you. Now, do you think that changes the conversation in the room? Totally. I think it totally changes the conversation. He might be lying. Okay, this might be this might be cabin fever, and he's just imagined that he's the guy from the outside, and it's this elaborate hoax, and they've managed to get the masonry on the floor in just the right way, and and you might want to pepper this guy with all sorts of questions, like what is on the other side? Do you know the nature of the room? Do you know how it ticks and why are you here? And and and you might want to do all sorts of tests on this guy to to figure out whether whether it's true or not. But his entrance into the room and his claims about himself change the nature of the debate in the room. And and of course that's who Jesus is for Christians. Christians say Jesus is the one who's shown up in the middle of history in a unique way that nobody else a ever has. In lots of religions and myths, gods have walked the earth. In lots of religions, you know, so you so you know, you might have Thor and Zeus and and and things like that in Norse religion. And the gods have walked the earth and done stuff. But when you ask a a follower of Norse religion, when when did Zeus do such and such? When did they do it? Well it's a meaningless question. It's like, well, it it's it's a myth. It's a it's in mythological time, it's in dream time, it doesn't happen in in our space-time history. Yes, gods have walked the earth, but just not really our earth, actually, in our time and space. On the other hand, there are there are lots of really impressive figures in world history, but you ask them, Are you God? and they think, No, of course I'm not, you know. You are even you ask Buddha, you know, are you God? And he would, you know, smile at you and say, You need enlightenment, my child. No, of course no, I'm not. And yet in Jesus you get this unique combination of someone who shows up in history and makes these stunning claims about himself. And and as C. S. Lewis famously said, you know, when he makes those claims about himself, he's either a liar, or he's a lunatic, or he's the Lord. Which is it to be? Interestingly, uh Richard Dawkins said um in The God Delusion that Jesus was just honestly mistaken. Just honestly mistaken about being God. Um and I well, I d I just think that's that that just is the lunatic option, actually. Sorry, Richard, that's that is the lunatic option. If someone is honestly mistaken about their divine identity, they're a lunatic. What do we do with such a person? Who is honestly mistaken about being the Son of God? We dial 999, you know. So I think C.S. Lewis is is a great help here, and just focusing us on the person of Jesus and who is this guy, because if he is who he says he is, then it changes everything.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and who and what Jesus says is vitally important, then. You know, he's come from the outside, yeah. What he says about the outside, and you know, you've got to at least analyse and and examine, you know, as you say, you you've got to take notice of of what he said.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. The Flamingans have got to do it, the Panglassist have got to do it, and the pragmatist has got to do it. The pragmatist can't just say, I don't care about what's on the outside of the room. Well, he's come into the room now and he's making it your business. You might you might have thought it's none of my business what happens on the outside. Jesus comes in and he makes it our business, he makes it all of our business, so we've got to deal with him.
SPEAKER_02Good. Okay, so Jesus and uh let's look at three then and and the nature of the Trinity and how that relates to to this uh being true.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so is the gospel true? How does three help? Well, uh we've just mentioned C. S. Lewis, and and um there's a there's a commemorative stone for C. S. Lewis in uh Westminster Abbey, with uh one of his most famous quotes, and the quote says, I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen. Not only because I can see it, but because by it I can see everything else. So he's sort of picking up on, you know, Jesus says I'm I'm the light of the world, so he's kind of like the sun. And there are two ways you can sort of affirm the reality of the sun. You can carefully stare at the sun, you know, you might want some special glasses and all you can look at the sun and study it in that way. But you can also study the things that are illuminated by the sun, and that establishes the reality of the sun as well. So translate that into Christianity. To look at the sun, I guess, is to kind of pick up a gospel and and read, encounter Jesus. Here is the light of the world, have a look. But you can also look at the world in the light of Jesus and see how actually the existence of Jesus and the fact that Jesus is Lord makes sense of this world in a way that no other presupposition, no other assumption makes sense. You look at the world and you see a world that is full of goodness, truth, beauty, love, redemption, stories of forgiveness, courage, all these all these sorts of things. Now, uh what is the light that actually accounts for being able to see all that? Well because everybody, whether you believe in Jesus or not, everybody believes that love's the greatest thing, and goodness, truth, and beauty are real, and you know, pretty much everyone. If if you don't, you you're pretty much out there. But everyone kind of agrees to these things. But it would be strange if those things were ultimate, when let's say there is no God, there is no light of the world, that actually we've all come from, you know, slime and selfishness. You know, if if if that's really where we've come from, slime and selfishness, and and g give it enough time and here we all are. You know, you me Beethoven's ninth. How what's the explanation? Oh, slime and selfishness. I don't know. Um I don't think that would account for why when we look at the world, goodness, truth, beauty, love, redemption, all these things are most important. So I d I I don't think no god can explain it. But I I also don't think many gods, uh the gods of polytheism, can kind of explain it. Because okay, there there might be an ultimate reality that's personal, but it's not particularly loving, and actually the gods of Greek mythology, Norse mythology, the god the gods are always warring and and so I don't I don't I don't see how that gets you to love, goodness, truth, and beauty. I don't I don't see how that gets you there. And a single god, all by himself, or rather all by itself, seems to be a quite impersonal kind of reality. And I again I I I think it becomes difficult to see how that god births a world in which love, truth, goodness, beauty is is ultimate. I think you look at the world, and I I think the light that is cast by Jesus is cast by the God of Jesus, who is three persons united in love, and and I think that makes most sense of the world that we look around at. Actually, just personally, when I was sort of coming back to faith in in when I was sort of twenty one, I s I s I still remember just being obsessed by the um the Blues Brothers song, Everybody Needs Somebody to Love which is a very catchy song, but I was And I was I was listening to that and I was reading through the Gospels and I was thinking actually I do believe that love is ultimate. Actually I do believe that it is the greatest thing. And here in Jesus I've got an explanation for that. And there was there was a sort of a a matching up of sort of existential thirst and just objective reality. Here is Jesus and he's he is love come to earth just to show us what he's like. And I think that that matched up with what I kind of saw to be most useful, most beautiful, most true in the world. And so the God of the God of three, who is a god of love, I I think makes sense of why we view the world the way we do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And why would we be made like we are, you know, with the racial relationships we have with each other and everything, if we weren't a pattern of something that has gone before?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Because you know, if if you just go with the slime and selfishness story, then all that personality and relationship and love is just the froth on the surface. And it's it doesn't go all the way down at all. It's just a froth on the surface. Is that is that really what you want to say about the world? That love and truth and beauty and goodness and and relationships are froth on the top of slime that is meaningless and no, no. Good news is no. And and again, I'm I'm not just I'm not just trying to say, ooh, that would be horrible. Ooh, you don't want that to be. But I'm just saying I I don't think that articulates reality authentically. I don't think that is a true pattern. To to say that love is just the froth on the top doesn't really get at my experience of the world or your experience of the world or any atheist, Buddhist Jews experience of the world. I think the the experience of the world that is most satisfying, or rather the explanation of our experience of the world that is most satisfying is a god of love, the one that Jesus reveals.
SPEAKER_02Okay, well let's we've looked at three, let's look at two. So two of three two one being there are two representatives, Adam of the old nature and Christ of the new nature. So how do we relate that to uh to this?
SPEAKER_03It's interesting, isn't it, that with with the story of Adam and Christ, what you've got is Christ diving down into Adam's world to rescue it. And what you've got there is something unique in all worldviews. In all other religions, kind of the the key events happened off in a corner somewhere. And I use that language from Acts. Um, because you know Paul says, Paul says is it uh in front of Felix or Agrippa? He's he says, you know, these things were not done in a corner. When Jesus, you know, died and rose again and he was proclaimed, it did not happen in a corner. And yet what do you what do you see with you know Muhammad's visions? They happened in a corner, Joseph Smith's visions, they happen in a corner, the prophecies for for uh for the JWs, you know, even Christ's return according to the JWs, off in a corner somewhere, not in the middle of space-time history in in the public. And and so actually, with the story of Adam and Christ, with Jesus coming into the into the world, what you've got is a is a way God has left footprints, put it that way. God has left footprints on the on in the world, and and we can study those and and we believe the Bible is the record of those footprints. And we can study and and you know, and in particular with the Adam and Christ story, Adam fell, Christ rose. Well, let's have a look. Did Christ really rise? Did Christ really rise? Without without saying Jesus rose from the dead, vindicating him as the Lord of the earth, without that as the explanation, it's very hard to account for the facts. There are the there are footprints that Christ has left on planet Earth. He lived, he had a following, he, you know, was born in Bethlehem, he grew up in in the north, in in Galilee, he had twelve disciples. All these things historians just agree, just commonly, absolutely. He got into trouble, was crucified on under Pontius Pilate. All these things, you know, historians just agree about. Three days later, the tomb that he was laid in was empty. Again, historians, atheist historians, uh agree to this, and his disciples had experiences of of seeing the risen Lord, of of meeting with the risen Lord, of eating with the risen Lord, and they are changed from no-hopers, I mean absolute no-hopers who just a couple of days ago were fleeing, denying, deserting Jesus, are turned into men and women of of such courage, they're turning the world upside down. And, you know, within a few weeks, Peter is proclaiming a mile away from the empty tomb, that tomb is empty, and that is proof that Jesus is Lord, you need to turn to him, and three thousand people do. And a few days later, five thousand people do, within a mile of the tomb that anyone could check and anyone could figure out whether it's empty or not. The Christian story has left footprints that can be investigated. Will you investigate those footprints? And and I think unless you unless you assume that Jesus is Lord and he rose from the dead, you have great difficulty figuring out why we're even talking about him today. Why why this this peasant um grows up in in some backwater of a long dead empire, never goes to the schools, never never graduates, you know, through the ranks of of the religious establishment, never enters religious orders, never has an army, never writes a book, never has an ounce of of earthly power, and yet two billion people call him Lord today. Like like without without the assumption that Jesus is who he says he is, and he rose from the dead, that's really hard to account for. It's really hard to account for how Christianity ever got off the ground. You know, thousands of people were crucified under the Romans. Why why do why is the only name we know Jesus Christ? So investigate, investigate, and and in particular investigate the scriptures, have a read for yourself. Um and in particular, Adam fell, Christ rose. Have a look at the resurrection, see see if that's true.
SPEAKER_02So, Glenn, how would you convince someone that the you know the whole Adam and Christ thing how would you convince someone that that was true?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, not by not by first saying, I want to convince you that Adam is true, and now I want to convince you that Christ is true. In fact, I do it the other way around. If if Jesus is, you know, the man who s comes into the middle of the room, first we figure out who this Jesus is, and then we figure out what his story is. So I think first we figure out about Jesus first, and and I mean the logic of the Bible, according to sort of Romans 5 or 1 Quintin' 15, is Adam fell, Christ rose. Now, a non-Christian won't believe that Adam existed, was the first father of the human race, probably won't think that. But neither do they think that Christ rose either. And they think both truths are pretty nuts. Um in fact, you know, what's what's more nuts that there is a first father of the human race or that Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead? Which which sounds more nuts. Um yeah, okay, so probably the resurrection sounds more nuts, but still I think that's the way into the story. And you just sort of say, well, the Christian story is Adam fell, Christ rose. Did Adam did did Christ rise? Because if Christ rose, then maybe the story is true, and then convince them that that that Adam fell. So I'd I'd I'd point them always to the person of Jesus. Um he's the way into the rest of the Bible, he's the way into Genesis and all that stuff. So convince them, seek to convince them about the resurrection of Jesus, and then sort of say, well, on the logic of the scriptures, Christ is the one man acting on behalf of the human race, and he answers another man who acts on behalf of the human race. So at that point I'm just trying to address the the issue kind of theologically. Yeah. And I wouldn't try and, you know, bring in human genome projects and all that sort of stuff.
SPEAKER_02Um it's best it sounds to do that sort of a in a like a Bible study or something, uh sort of coffee shop and discussion and Yeah, or you could do the three to one course and and um when when you study two, have a look at uh one Corinthians fifteen.
SPEAKER_03And let I mean it's it's there in verse twenty-one, you know, as in Adam all die, so in Christ will all be made alive. For since death came through a man, so the resurrection of the dead also came through a man. And just well there's the logic of it. Yeah. And let's look to the rest of One Corinthians fifteen to figure out what the evidence for it is. And again, with one Corinthians fifteen, it's open, it's it's brilliant to see, you know, Christ appeared. And he appeared to Peter, he appeared to James, he appeared to the twelve, he appeared to the five hundred. As I heard one preacher um say very uh very cleverly, he said, Well, what would it take to convince your best friends and your brother that you were God? And uh and Jesus managed it, you know, Jesus appearing to his brother James. It's pretty be pretty difficult to convince your brother that you are God, I reckon. And your best mate, Peter, who's seen you, you know, up close and personal. Um but yeah, go go through 1 Corinthians 15, have a look at at the evidence there. And if if Christ rose, then Adam fell.
SPEAKER_02Okay, well let's look at one then. Three, two, one. Uh who are we one with?
SPEAKER_03Through the yeah, so we're one with Adam, be one with Jesus. And and I think what we're doing with one is showing that the endpoint of an argument is not mere assent to the fact that Jesus might be God. It is union with Jesus. It is saying, All I am, I give to you, all I have I share with you. So, with one, we're in the realm of relationship. And I I think in in terms of authenticating whether the Christian story is true, surely at the heart of that has got to be calling on the name of Jesus and saying, Jesus, if you're there, I want to know you. And and so, if people want to know whether Christianity is true, I mean my my top adv advice is well, open up a Bible and shoot up a prayer and say, Jesus, if you're real, show me. And I always say it on Christians, you know, shoot up that prayer, it's a no-lose deal. You know, if he's not there, he's not going to answer, right? But if he is there, then there's nothing more important than praying that prayer, nothing more important than meeting him. So with one, we're kinda we're getting to the point where we're saying, look, okay, if Jesus really is Lord, then he is like he's the light of the world. And he's like the sun. And if he's the sun, like I don't need to convince you that the sun's bright. I just need to say look, you know. I don't need to convince you that honey is sweet, I just need to say taste it. Yeah. And s just as you know that honey is sweet and you know that the sun is bright, hopefully, as you're reading the scriptures, you just know that Jesus is Lord. You just know it. And that and that's that's that's the sort of the deep oneness that Jesus brings us. Not so much stepping stones of theological arguments that get you to assent to the correct truths, but a relationship with Christ. That just as you know that honey is sweet, just as you know that the sun is bright, you know Jesus is Lord, you just you just do. And and actually, you know, that might sound esoteric and mystical and and that kind of thing. But it's true. Yeah. Well exactly.
SPEAKER_02And it's a song that says, uh you ask me how I know he lives, he lives within my heart. You know, and it's Yeah. There was that chap that went round uh he was street preaching, I think, and uh he used to peel an orange and he used to point to somebody and say, Now tell you tell me what that tasted like. And uh he said, Well, I don't know, you know, you tasted it. And he said, Well, there you go. He says Yeah, yeah, you know, you've got to taste and see.
SPEAKER_03Taste and see, the Lord is good. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's absolutely right. And and we're not saying this we're not saying this as the only thing that we say. You know, I've spoken to many Mormons who sort of say, you know, there's a there's a verse in the Book of Mormon that says, you know, if you ask for authentication, you'll you'll have a special feeling that will authenticate for you. And you know, you you ask cer certain, you know, Mormons, what was that? What was that like? And they sort of say, Yes, I was it's always I was about 16 or 17, and I was sitting on the end of my bed with my Bible open, and I was praying for that kind of feeling, and lo and behold, I had that kind of funny feeling. And and at that point you sort of think, Well, I'm I'm sure you did, because like you c you can't be a Mormon without that. And it's kind of the bedrock of their faith is to have that one-off sensation. Christianity is not so much saying that, it's not it's not so much saying, Well, I ha I've had a funny feeling in my heart, therefore I know that you know Jesus is Lord. It comes together with a whole bunch of other stuff, like three and two, and you know, the objective reality of Christ, who really did come in history and die in history and rise again in history, and and there are facts that we can you know point to, and the and the scriptures give us this the story and they give us the understanding of the whole world that is illuminated by Christ as Lord. So there's a whole heap of other stuff, but yeah, absolutely. It's gotta be personal knowledge because Christ is a person.
SPEAKER_02Okay, well, we better leave it there. We'll continuing the series next time. We're gonna be looking at uh is Christianity anti-science? So thanks for listening to the Evangelist Podcast. If you like listening each week, we'd really appreciate a rating and review on iTunes. A very special thanks to Dom White, who says, superb, I absolutely love these podcasts. They are so useful and good fun too. So thanks very much, Dom. Thank you, Doug. Uh if you would like to leave us a review, uh, we'd be grateful it helps us to get seen by more people. Just go to revivalmedia.org slash iTunes. That'll take you directly to the podcast page. We'd be happy if you could do that for us. Also to uh sign up for the podcast via email if you want an email notification, or to receive our free daily prayer bulletin. You can go to our website and this show's specific web page, which is revivalmedia.org slash tepfifty six. I got the web address wrong last time. And uh so I've corrected that now if you wanted to go to last week's. But uh for this week it's revivalmedia.org slash tepfifty six, and see you next time.
SPEAKER_03Bye.