Today on the Evangelist Podcast, we're looking at the pitiful practice of gaining converts.
SPEAKER_01The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you. With Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_02Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. We're looking at uh the pitiful practice of gaining converts. But before we go on, uh do you get our free daily prayer bulletin? It's a small twenty-four page booklet that tells thirty-one stories of what God is doing around the world. Did you know that Slovakian school pupils are studying the Bibles in their schools, or that North Koreans pray for us in the West? Well you can hear more about it in our prayer bulletin and get it free of charge by going to revivalmedia.org/slash bulletin. So Glenn, the pitiful practice of gaining converts.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02Uh is that not if not the whole of evangelism? Aren't we aren't we aiming to uh to get converts?
SPEAKER_00Uh no, not at all. No, we are not in the business of gaining converts, we are in the business of offering Christ. And I think that's uh quite a a big distinction, actually.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00So what's what's the difference then? Well, I think gaining converts happens from a position of emptiness and need. So I I I I need for people to become Christians because then there'll be sort of notches on my belt, and I can kind of I can very humbly kind of say, well, the Lord has blessed us, and in my prayer letter I can say to people, Well, you know, we've gained this number of converts and gain and and all the praise goes to me and and what I'm looking for is for things to reflect well on me. I I'm seeking to gain converts in that sort of in that sort of sense. So in that sense, I'm I'm in a position of emptiness and need. But if I'm offering Christ, then actually that comes from a position of fullness and generosity. Um so if we if we try to gain converts, essentially we'll try to use people. Um because the they are not kind of interesting to us for their own sake, but only for you know what we want out of them. We want we want the notch on our belt. Um so we're we're gonna use people, we're gonna try and bait the hook in evangelism. We'll we'll give them a little sweetener, you know, a little little sugar around the pill, and then you know, the the nasty gospel as as we kind of stupidly think of it. We so we bait the hook or uh evangelism becomes sort of like leaving a trail of breadcrumbs so that people are sort of, you know, come along the way and then, ah, gotcha, you know, now now we've gained you. You know, i it's essentially trying to trap people. Or maybe trying to argue them into a corner so that, you know, at the end of the day, after our you know, five arguments for the existence of God, they're kind of backed into the corner and they say, Oh, damn it. I guess I'm gonna have to become a Christian then. Um, in that kind of sense, and we go, haha, we've gained a convert. Um on the other hand, if we try and offer Christ, um, we'll try to actually love people, and and our friendly offers to people won't be the bait, um, but they'll be part uh it'll be part of the same generous spirits that we have as we offer Christ, we offer ourselves. We loved you so much, says Paul in 1 Thessalonians 2, we loved you so much that we are delighted to share not only the gospel of God with you, but also our lives because you become so dear to us. So as Paul is sharing his life with others, that's not the bait for the hook of ah, and we try to, you know, gain you as a convert. It's just part of from a position of fullness, from a position of generosity, we share our lives, we you know, we we don't so much leave a trail of breadcrumbs as as we offer the bread of life himself. And and and we won't so much try to argue people into a corner, we'll we'll be saying, Well, why wouldn't you want to trust Jesus? He's great. I I think there's I think you can you can sense you can almost s smell the difference between an evangelist who's trying to gain a convert and an evangelist that's trying to offer something.
SPEAKER_02But where do you get the distinction from then? Where does it come from?
SPEAKER_00Well, if you trace it all the way back, I guess it's to the to the very nature of God Himself. Um you know, we believe in a triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who is full of life, the Father always pouring life and blessing by his Spirit onto and into His Son. And and then we, who are who are we? Well, God doesn't need us. Um we are completely unnecessary to God. We are a total add-on, we're a bonus, we're we're a superfluous addendum, we're we're a glorious flourish, we're utterly unnecessary, but we're completely loved. And I think that's that's the position where where we are, where we're always empty, and God is always this sort of source of fullness and blessing. And so if that's who God is, and if his gospel is really about him offering himself, the Father offering the Son to us by the Spirit, and then we receive because we're needy beggars, we're sinful, and we need the Lamb of God to to take away our sins, then we are always the ones who are just simply receiving, but then as we receive Christ, we are kind of swept up into his gospel mission. And his gospel mission keeps on flowing out into the world, and we're kind of carried along. The church is carried along with God in God's mission, out to the world. And so the whole the whole uh the whole direction of evangelism is is not so much us trying to pluck people out of the world, but it's actually flowing with the missionary God out into the world, because we've got because kind of coming from behind us is this fountain of blessing, and we flow with this God into or into the world. And so in that sense, I I would say that offering Christ as opposed to gaining converts really traces right back to the very nature of God, the very nature of his gospel, the very nature of mission itself is to be caught up in a generous God. So not to be in a position of need where we need to gain converts, but from a position of fullness filled with Christ, out we go to offer him to the world.
SPEAKER_02Do you really think sort of evangelists manipulate people to mould them and and push them in?
SPEAKER_00Yes. Um, all evangelists? Um I know I do. Uh um I think it's a very great danger. I think it's a very great danger. Um especially, you know, I say I mean I've I found myself reading a another evangelist's prayer letter the other day and and like very interested to see how successful this other evangelist was. And you think, well, why? Why am why am I that interested? It wasn't simply so that I could praise God and and say, Hallelujah, the Lord is at work um in in this brother. Um it was, hmm, how's how's he going? Is he being successful at the whole evangelist game? Um and as soon as you th you you're into that territory, then of course the temptation very much is to do what it takes to get results. And and therefore I you know, I I do think that there there can be manipulation that happens in evangelism. We know we know there's not meant to be. Um it's interesting, uh I was uh been reading um a number of different evangelistic books, uh books on how to evangelize, and uh a number of them make the point of saying, um, listen, you you should befriend someone in order to convert them, but even if they don't become a Christian, it's very important um that you still remain friends with them because you don't want it to look like you've been manipulating them. Which which is just interesting that that even needs to be said, you know, you know, keep being friends with your friend. Um like, well hang on, they're not much of a friend. If if I need to be told by a religious authority, keep being friends with your friend. What? Um they clearly weren't my friends. Um and and then it almost sort of adds to the layer of manipulation. It's it's almost as if it's saying, you know, have a calculated relationship with someone, but if they don't come to Christ, remain their friends so it doesn't look like you were calculating. Um, I I think these things can happen on all sorts of levels. So that that's at the sort of the personal evangelism level. I think um I I'm about to go to Edinburgh and a university and an another university is gonna join us in a two two different Christian unions and uh are putting on some events for their friends. So I mean one of the events is like an acoustic night, so you know, someone's gonna come at a very good singer, is gonna sing, give their testimony, and then I'm gonna speak at some point, you know, in the evening. And that could either be a gaining converts method or it could be an offering Christ method. Um it is an offering Christ method, and I'm really looking forward to it. But but it could be if if if we thought, okay, the hook is, you know, Glenn's gonna give up and get up and give a talk about Jesus. Oh, yuck. Oh, we need some bait. I know what the bait will be. Let's get let the acoustic guitarist. Let's yeah, let's get some sweet music and that kind of thing. Um and so it it could be, it could be that the bait is the fun event and the hook is the nasty gospel. But you gotta sweeten the pill somehow. It could be like that. Or and this is what I think these events are, w what it really is, is um we love life, um, we love Jesus, we want to share with you who we are, and we want to share Jesus with you. Um in in this total spirit of of of generosity. So it's not like I want to earn from you a couple of minutes of of your attention so that I can take that time in order to tell you about Jesus. It's more we've got this gift to give you, and we've got this other gift called Jesus to give you. You see, it's it's it's that kind of generous thing, that that offering Christ, rather than kind of just wanting to take. And and therefore I think in evangelistic events that the greatest evangelistic event is always church. Just church b because church is what you're doing already. It's it's not as though you're baiting the hook to get people to come along. And you know, at the at the end of the day, if you do bait the hook and and people come to Christ, and well, hallelujah, you know, who who am I to sort of reign on your parade? But wouldn't it be better if what we were actually doing is inviting people into the life that we already have and saying, This is great, we want to share it with you. And and therefore, I think church is you know God's evangelistic strategy for the world, and that's that's the great evangelistic event. And I think I think inviting people to church and not just to a seeker-sensitive service, but just to you know, just to church. Um and you know, translate your language out of Christian ease, but but be church, uh, because church is missional.
SPEAKER_02Um many people speak about the need to be intentional in our relationships. Would you go along with that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean uh it's it's a it's one of those buzz phrases. They they kind of come in and out of fashion, these buzz phrases like be intentional in all that you do. And and if what that means is think about your Christian discipleship in every area of your life and and make sure that every area of your life is reflecting the good news of Jesus, um, then yeah, be intentional and and in my uh in my leisure time, be intentional in how I use that. I s I suppose so. Um, you know, think think about um how my use of leisure time uh glorifies Jesus and and displays the liberty that I have in the gospel. I think that yeah. Um I I think sometimes though it can be a code for um have an intentional relationship with a person. And it's that's that whole, you know, befriend someone uh in order to convert them. Um whereas you know, I I I I do love the the thing that um UCCF, the the student uh evangelistic group, use which is uh do what you love and take Jesus with you. Um I think I think that's very much uh that's very much coming from the fullness, offering Christ kind of a trajectory. Um do what you love, take Christ with you. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_02So how does it relate then to sort of proclamation evangelism? Um, you know, mission big missions, altar calls, and that kind of thing?
SPEAKER_00Hmm. I mean the the church got got along for eighteen centuries before altar calls. Um and it's and it's interesting, you know, I'm I'm reading a biography of George Whitfield at the moment and and kind of how he did evangelism. Interestingly, the offering Christ line that I that I'm using in this episode is taken straight from George Whitfield. Both he and John Wes Wesley would, you know, after a hard day's evangelism, they'd just write in their journal at the end of the day, I offered them Christ. And that was how they summarized their evangelism. And they they didn't actually have an altar call. They didn't ask anyone to walk the aisle or tick a box or that kind of thing on a on a feedback form. They they preached and um and and people would actually pass notes up to George Whitfield and then he would sort of stuff them away in his pockets, um, people asking him to pray for them, and and people would uh make appointments to see him during the week and in in in follow-up. And he would you know, there would there was stuff that happened after his preaching, but it wasn't kind of the it wasn't the altar core kind of thing. And and that that really became uh popular under Charles Finney um in the nineteenth century. Uh and and he had, you know, he had some very uh unorthodox theological views, to be honest. He didn't believe in original sin. Uh we're gonna uh talk about that in a future episode, but he did he didn't believe in in original sin. He said that human depravity was a voluntary attitude of the mind. So therefore, you know, conversion depends on converting a human will, getting them to make a decision for Jesus, being persuaded to uh to make this this sort of choice. And so the way he was preaching was it was always trying to uh get this response out of people. Whereas I I think, you know, what Whitfield was was trying to do was was very much offering Christ to a sinner who was absolutely helpless and on their own. Um so I I I think in proclamation evangelism, this this shapes what you're seeking to do uh with those who are listening. What you're seeking to do uh is not to address them as kind of you know neutral religious consumers and you want to get out of them the decision that will help your prayer letter. Um what you you you're you're addressing people who are disconnected from Christ, who are lost in sins, who can't save themselves, and yet you're saying, here's Jesus, here's Jesus. Do you want him? He's yours, have him. Do you want Jesus? Here's Jesus. And I I think that just kind of that has a very different flavour to it, that kind of evangelism. And it's not about gaining converts, it's about offering Christ.
SPEAKER_02Okay, Glenn, we'll uh leave it there for this time, and uh next time we're gonna look at the wonderful news that we're condemned already. Hooray! So uh something to look forward to next time. Thanks, Glenn. If you have any comments about today's show or would like to share it, you can just go to revivalmedia.org slash TEP40. And also we'd really appreciate a rating and review on iTunes. Um, it helps us get seen by more people. Uh, we've had three people review so far, a number of five-star reviews, which is good. But if you'd like to give us a rating and review, we'd be most grateful. Just go to revivalmedia.org slash iTunes, and that will take you directly to the podcast page there. Again, thanks for listening to the Evangelist Podcast. This episode's web address again is revivalmedia.org slash tep forty.