Today on the Evangelist Podcast, we're looking at the dreadful danger of being polished.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you. With Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_01Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. This week we're looking at the dreadful danger of being polished, Glenn.
SPEAKER_03Hmm.
SPEAKER_01Don't whatever you do be a polished evangelist.
SPEAKER_02What do you mean by being polished? I mean uh if you think that being an evangelist means being a slick salesperson, like a door-to-door salesman who's got a little patter, who knows how to sell ice to Eskimos and sand to the Arabs, and you know, whatever. And that's what it means to be an evangelist. Oh my goodness. You're in trouble, your friends are in trouble. No one will want to be with you. Uh you'll find that evangelistic opportunities are well, you will find them more difficult because you'll always be trying to be polished, and they will find it difficult to actually engage with you as a genuine human being.
SPEAKER_01You do see it quite a lot on sort of Christian TV and things of people highly slick things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Wow, this is amazing, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And it can kind of get a little bit like um like the medieval church had, you know, had that division between the laity and the clergy, and you know, and you had the the monks and the nuns who were the super spiritual ones, and then just the hoi poloi, the normal, normal people who just wanted it holy, but they, you know, they earned their wage and they paid for the monks and the nuns to say the prayers and the priests to do all their religious stuff, and and you think, well, we m we must have come so far in so many hundreds of years, and we've had a reformation, haven't we? And yet I I find that actually evangelists can be kind of the new kind of priestly caste that everyone else thinks, ah, they're so, you know, I could never do what they do. It's interesting, I was I was at a um this is a few years ago, there was a uh an evangelist, a great evangelist, who was giving a uh seminar on how to share your faith. And uh I was just sitting in listening, and um uh we were breaking up into various groups and doing some group activities, so I got to know the the woman who was sat next to me quite a bit, and and at the end of uh this seminar, she sort of turned to me and she said, Oh my goodness, wasn't he amazing? I could never do that. And it was interesting because I I got to spend some time with this evangelist after the seminar, and I kind of fed that back to them and and just sort of said it it really was uh a very gripping, um inspiring in some ways seminar about how to share your faith. But um just thought you'd be interested to know that that you know here's this woman sat in sat next to me, and her one impression was I could never do that. And um and he was crestfallen at that, and I I would be if if the tables were turned, and people said that. But sometimes we can give that kind of impression that that yeah, it it takes a lot of polish um to be an evangelist, but that really we just shoot ourselves in the foot, if you think that.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well we'll we'll dip into this uh a a little bit in more detail. But before we go on, do you get our free daily prayer bulletin? It's a small twenty-four page booklet that tells thirty-one stories of what God is doing around the world. Did you know that the gospel is reaching people in Romania, or that Slovakian school pupils are studying the Bibles in their classes? Or that North Korean Christians pray for us in the West? Well you can hear more about it in our prayer bulletin. You can get it free of charge by going to revivalmedia.org slash bulletin. Okay, Glenn, well uh what got you thinking about this uh subject of the danger of being polished?
SPEAKER_02Uh a few different things. Uh one of them was um a mission that I did in Bristol for for Bristol University uh back in November, and uh we we held uh an event in a pub and basically it was a lot of people um playing music and and uh and in between their acoustic sets there were people from the Christian Union giving their testimonies. And uh and it was a it was a really good event, and and the next morning I sort of fed back to everyone in the prayer meeting, um, oh please pray for Gary the Barman um because we got into a conversation about Jesus and uh I I left him with a Luke's gospel and he he's looking forward to reading that. And they were just astonished, like, oh how did you do it? Oh, how did you bridge from the acoustic music into a gospel convers and like just the way they were asking me these questions, you could tell that they they thought I must have had some like really whiz-bang method that I'd gone to Bible college to learn or something, you know. And and and I just told them the truth, and the truth literally was I was getting a drink from him, and I just I just asked him, Have you overheard any of the the talks that are going on in the next room? He said, bits and pieces. Then there's a big silence, and then I said something something very close to um it's just Christians talking about like how they became Christians. Have you ever like would you ha is there um the Christianity, have you ever thought about it much? Like literally, that's kind of as polished as I was, and and he j he just said something like um I really enjoyed doing religious studies at school and then big silence. I'm trying to think, okay, where do we go from here? And then thankfully, you know, the Lord was at work and and and he said, But the thing I've always wondered was, like, if God knows everything, like how can he allow such bad things to happen in the world? And boof, we're off and away in a in a conversation. Not because I had a whiz-bang line that kind of nailed it at all. It was really clunky, it was really embarrassing, it was cringe worthy. Um, but the Lord was at work and you know, and and as soon as he started asking about a God and suffering, well, we were able to talk about well, you know, I believe in Jesus, so you know, He He's the God who comes and suffers, so and then suddenly we we're off and we're talking and and and I happen to have a Luke's gospel on me, so I was able to give that to him. And so like the way I was able to have a conversation with a barman in the pub was not because I'm brilliant at like changing gears from you know one kind of conversational topic to the next. But uh it was just weird, it was awkward. Yeah, but you know, the spirit was in it, and and he carried the conversation at times when I I couldn't.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I mean it it sounds like the conversation could have been a bit smoother.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, it could have been smoother. Um and you know, and and and you know, hopefully next time I'm in that situation, I you know, you you always think of these things later, but you know, this is this is why practice makes perfect. And you know, next time I'll I'll say something like, you know, when's the last time you thought properly about spiritual issues or something something like that. But but again, you know, there's a danger if if that's my line that it turns him off. Um or you know, you know, you can you can ask people, you know, have you ever had an experience of church? What was that like? You know, if a friend of mine always uses the line, I'm a big fan of Jesus, what do you make of him? Um which is great, but that that's his line and it works for him. Yeah, you know, he's he's um he's got this sort of brummy accent from the black country, and it it really it really works for him. It wouldn't work for me. And in a sense, it's good that it doesn't work for me because I don't want to use lines on people. Um I I do I do want to be curious about them um and get into genuine conversations. Um so I mean there is a time and a place for us to step back and think about how we talk about Jesus. And um, you know, like recently a friend of mine um I I said that Radio Head was my favourite band, and they said, Yeah, Radio Head's my favourite band as well. And and he said, What's your favorite album? And like I haven't been asked that question in like ten years or something. And literally it it took me like ten minutes to sort of think about like what is my and I was weighing up in my head, you know, is the Benz better than OK Computer? Is that better than you know and you know, and and and it made for a clunky conversation. Now, if you ask me what's your favourite album, because I've already had that conversation, I've thought about it, I'll say, well, okay computer is the all-time classic, nothing will top it, but In Rainbows is the is the album that I'd listen to, you know, now if if I had to listen to any album. Um and I'll say I I can say that, and that can get the conversation going in a in a more helpful way, because I've thought about it a little bit more. And I think you know that there's a time and a place for thinking about you know how we express ourselves and how we talk about Jesus and and those sorts of things. Not so as to be polished, but just so as to get the conversation moving, really.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean you do a lot of evangelism training. Do you find that sort of people want to have polished lines to use?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think I I really do. I th I think we get into our heads that if if I just learn the right techniques and tactics, then suddenly evangelism will be easy. I I was speaking at a house party for students up in Scotland end of last year, and um I'm I'm going to do some evangelism training for them in the future. So I just asked them, what sort of topics would you like me to cover in my evangelism training? And and straight off the bat, two people said the first person said, Um, how can we mention Jesus without it being awkward? And the second person asked, Um, how can I tell someone I'm praying for you without it sounding weird? Um and and I just told them this is this would be really short training, guys, because um I I don't think I can. I don't think I can stop that from being awkward or from sounding weird, but what I want to do is really commend you, because that's brilliant. Like, like here are here are some people who really want to talk about Jesus, and here are some people who do pray for their friends and they want to be able to say, I'm I'm praying for you. And like what I said to them was was listen, if you are mentioning Jesus in conversations, if you're praying for your friends and every now and again saying, I am praying for you, you are the Billy Graham of personal evangelism. That's you're my hero. I want to be like you. That's amazing, that's really amazing. How do you make that not awkward? I don't know. I d I I don't think there is a way of not making that awkward. I think you know, we we are in Christ in a world that is in Adam, and when we raise the name of Jesus, there is just that kind of change of gears thing that happens. There is that going against the grain thing. And and and there are going to be splinters when you go against the grain. And I just I there is no way around that. But if you love your friends and you're praying for them and you're seeking to talk about Jesus at points, the only thing I'd add to that would would just be, well, why don't you invite them to church as well? Um and and not not just invite them to a polished evangelistic event, but just invite them to a church family in all its sort of mess. You know, that's that's where evangelism happens. It it happens in the everyday, it happens in the mess. And if we try and polish things up all the time, I I I think we'll just have surface-level interactions with people.
SPEAKER_01It sounds sort of a little clumsy, you know. Uh isn't there a sort of a any way of being a bit more effective?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh, it is clumsy. It is clumsy. And well, here's the thing. There's two ways of being clumsy in evangelism. One one way of being clumsy in evangelism is to have like 15 tracts in your you know shirt pockets and to be constantly like trying out lines on people. Like, you know, if you're in a pub discussion about the offside rule, turning that into a proclamation of Christ our last defender, or something like that. Like that's that's a way of being really weird, actually. And and trying to use lines on people and trying to use people as you know, as as though they've got an evangelistic target on their chest, and that's the only reason I'm loving this person. The only reason I'm engaging with this person is because I want a notch on my belt, because I want them to be a you know I want them to be a convert that I gain. Like, that's a way of being really weird with people, but that's th that actually trying to be polished is what will make you weird. There's another way of just being yourself and loving another person and mentioning Jesus, and there's a weirdness that comes with that, but that's the authentic weirdness, and that's the weirdness that we can't avoid, really, and uh and I and I think it'll be mortifying. Evangelism is mortifying in that old Puritan sense, in that old Romans chapter eight kind of sense. That we put to death the misdeeds of the flesh, and and there's there's something very uh mortifying, killing off of the flesh, about you know, standing up for Jesus and and talking about him every now and again. There's no way around it really. If if you find if you find a way of avoiding feeling mortified, then you might just be finding a way of avoiding Christian discipleship. Because discipleship involves that kind of that kind of thing. So be it'll be clumsy, but hopefully, if if we're concerned to naturally engage with per people and love people for who they are, then it'll be clumsy in the right way, not in the wrong way.
SPEAKER_01So, what advice would you give about personal evangelism?
SPEAKER_02I think uh embrace the weirdness, um make peace with being odd, again, odd in the right way. I think be alive to the relationship that you're in, not always seeking to um say this line and lead them to this point of a gospel presentation, and then to that point, and then to that point. I was I was talking to a friend just on Sunday and and she's just started uh a new job, and they they know that she's a Christian, and they they find that hilarious, and it's it's a it's an office all of girls, of women, and she was just saying that just uh last Monday they were going round the office saying, What did you do on the weekend? And she was like, Well, I know that the right thing to say is on Sunday morning I went to church and it was brilliant. And that was that was what she was gonna say. But as as they went round the room, all the other ones said, I got drunk on Saturday night, I vomited everywhere, and then the next person said, Oh, yeah, you would have should have seen me, and you know, Sunday I was just so hung over, and it was just drunken tail after drunken tail after drunken tail. And she just realized that when it came round to her turn, it was just it would just be received by them as completely puritanical. Um Well, I actually went to church on Sunday morning, you know. Um, me and my 2.2 children, and and and she just she just knew that that would come across in quite a puritanical way. So she just said, actually, I I I saw the film Gravity on Saturday night. It's really good, really made me think though. Have you have you seen the film? And so like she just went in a different direction, just started talking about gravity and and yeah, was was hopeful that you know certain issues about you know our mortality and that kind of thing might come up, which were in the film. But I thought that was a good example of not just using a line because that's what you do, but just engaging in the situation.
SPEAKER_01And sort of picking up, I suppose, something out of what they say, just seeing where it goes. Yeah. Yeah, I suppose it in some ways, you know, having an open hand and an open heart to a conversation. Yes. You know, and just just allowing the Lord to sort of guide you to reach people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And just and like and if you're talking about the film Gravity, then then actually you're not far from a gospel conversation if you talk about that. Or if you talk about a relationship problem, you're not far from talking about the gospel when you talk about that. Or if you you know, you don't have to, you know, almost have a script that you work your conversations off.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, if you're talking about something that matters, you're a hop, skip, and a jump from talking about Jesus. Because, you know, our our gospel really is the thing that undergirds all all that matters.
SPEAKER_01And it depends a lot on sort of your relationship with them. You know, I wouldn't I wouldn't start the same conversation with my neighbour that I would with uh, you know, my cousin or Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It depends on on the relationship as well as the situation.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I and I think a a real conversation killer is when people try to be interesting. Like like if you enter into a conversation and your goal in this conversation is to try to be interesting, then you'll try and spin some story. You'll you know, here's the people I've met in my life, here are my achievements, here's where I've been, let me tell you a story, let me and let me entertain you. You're gonna have a bad conversation there, or you're gonna have a very one-sided conversation. It'll all be about you. And and I I think that can happen in evangelism where we go into it trying to be interesting, or we go into it trying to have a certain kind of conversation, and this is the way that it's gonna gonna be. But I I think actually conversations work a lot better when you're not trying to be interesting, when you're trying to be interested. When you're trying to be curious and just ask them questions and questions and questions. And I remember you you you gave me some statistic about the number of questions that Jesus Oh yeah, it was something like 169 or something. Well over a hundred like questions Jesus asks in in the gospels. This is Yeah, we need to we need to stop trying to be interesting and and try to be interested. Um and then, you know, like along the way, when I do evangelism training, I I take people through 321 and and and along the way I try and sort of get them to workshop how they would finish the following sentences. Sentences like that's what I love about Jesus. Dot dot dot. And one of the reasons I do that is because it's just good for Christians to talk to one another about that's what I love about Jesus. That's you know, n none of the conversations we should have in a sense should be evangelistic conversations so much as they're just gospel conversations because we believe in the gospel. And if we end up like trying desperately to talk about Jesus on Monday morning, but we haven't actually talked about Jesus on Sunday morning, what's going on there? And the the way to be naturally talking about Jesus Monday to Friday is to be talking to other Christians naturally about Jesus on Sunday or on you know home group night or w whenever. So I would I would get Christians thinking in these categories, that's what I love about Jesus, or that's what I love about being a Christian. Or that's what I hate about life. I don't think we can solve it. Um just talking about, you know, our helplessness as as as humans and the problem of evil out there. Or that's what I love about our church. Just just and again, these aren't sentences that you just sort of crowbar into a conversation, uh, but they are just categories to be thinking of and and and they can crop up in conversation. If you're having a conversation about the film Gravity and you start talking about, oh my goodness, you know, what a stark portrayal of our mortality, and just you know, your oxygen's at 9%, and then 8%, 7%, 6%, 5%, 4%. Gosh, that makes you think, doesn't it? And you know, you can talk about man, that's what I hate about life, the problem of death. Like we can't solve it, can we? Like that's what I love about being a Christian, though. Like there's something beyond and stuff like that. But I but I think all also, you know, you can turn those sentences up your sleeve into into questions. You know, so that's what I love about Jesus. Well, what do you make of Jesus? You can talk not just about that's what I love about being a Christian, but you can talk about here's how I became a Christian. Here's why I became a Christian. You can s talk about that's what I love about my church, but you can also say, Well, do you want to come with me to church on a Sunday? I'll cook you lunch afterwards. Why don't you come along? Or you or you can ask people, have you have you ever read one of the Bible's biographies of Jesus? Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John? Do you want do you want to join me? Why don't we why don't we do that?
SPEAKER_01And what what do you think about sort of having tracts on you or gospels and that?
SPEAKER_02Oh, I th I think having having a gospel in your pocket is um just brilliant. I mean, I I'm giving them away all the time. Maybe, maybe partly because the way I became a Christian was really reading Luke's gospel and just kind of meeting with Christ through that. So I'm a I'm a big believer in that and and essentially, you know, you you give them the gospel and and then you just pray that God's word would do it do its work in in people's lives. So um yeah, I'd be I'd be big into having Gospels attracts I I haven't come across millions that I like love. And I I often think that if it's off the back of a conversation, you've already like talked to people about it. And I think I think the natural next step is from a conversation is to dip dip into the Bible and and read it for themselves. So that's yeah, that's what I tend to carry.
SPEAKER_01I suppose in a way there's no such thing as a perfect tract. Yeah you know, yeah. You can't sort of summarise the gospel properly enough in two sides of a a six or whatever.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean you can try and you'll you'll be clumsy just like in our conversations. You can try and you'll be clumsy. But I guess so yeah, I'm not at all against tracts in any way, shape, or form. I'm I'm sort of working on one for three through one and and you know, and and hope it could be used by God. But I wouldn't want to put my trust in a tract. That seems a little bit like putting a trust in a kind of a conversational technique. Yeah. But I do have great confidence in God's word, so let's get into people's hands.
SPEAKER_01I saw something interesting in in the church I went to. Um a number of people in the congregation had written out their testimony, and then they was printed as a like a church leaflet. Yeah. I thought that's really good because you you know somebody um meets you or whatever, and you can say, Well, look, here's my story, and it's sort of advertises the church, but it's it's actually sort of personal stories. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I've been to churches like that, and the people who have done it have really uh yeah, have really enjoyed having that as a resource. Yeah, to be able to give to people and say, Yeah, this is my story and yeah, it's a really good idea.
SPEAKER_01Okay, Glenn, so are you sort of advising against people going out, say, on the streets and just having some kind of strategy to to evangelize?
SPEAKER_02No, not at all. Not at all. And and I love doing that myself. Love doing that myself. Um This is this is far more thoughts about conversations in the office, conversations with with friends. You know, when I go out on the streets and and talk to people, I I do have a few questions up my sleeve, things like, what do you make of Jesus? Why do you think he came? And and so so I've got I've got, you know. But even even there, those questions are just kind of safety nets. And and I want to yeah, I want to engage people with where they're at and and the questions that they have. And sort of uh I know you and I have have gone out with the question, if you could ask God one question, what would it be? Yeah and again, in a sense that's a gimmick, in another sense it's it's allowing the questioner to kind of set the agenda and and doing things like that. So I absolutely believe in first contact evangelism. I think it's it's interesting that when we think of evangelism, we think well, I can often think of first contact evangelism, sort of in the streets with tracts and doing that kind of thing. But if that's the epitome of evangelism, then what I'll try to do with my friends in the cafe, in the pub, in wherever, will start to sound very forced. And you know, you have to force a conversation in the street, yeah, like in a in a sense. Yeah. Um but it's different with friends.
SPEAKER_01It's a very different thing, and and all you know, with these things, the Lord can use anything, and you know, as you say, sort of the muddleness and trying to get your words out and everything, the Lord can use that just as much. Uh Keith Green, the um singer songwriter who's who's dead now, but uh read his book, and he said he used to be amazed because he'd have a concert and there'd be nights when it would ever everything would go flawlessly, you know. And he thought at the end of it that it was um you know, it was a brilliant thing, you know, all the songs went well, and you know, the words he spoke were just right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But uh at the end there wasn't very much response at all. He said, and and some nights things would go wrong, PA would go wrong, and yeah, someone would strike up the wrong chord and you know he'd mudd his words, and like loads more people would respond.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And uh it's just those those times when the Lord takes hold of it and honours just our feeble efforts.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, it's it's amazing what can happen.
SPEAKER_02It's uh it's in our weakness that he shows up in his strength. And I guess that's that's the whole point of of this episode, really, that that sort of it's it's not about polishness. You know, Jesus kept talking about you know evangelism like being sowing a seed, and the seed just looks weak and pathetic and foolish, and you go back the next day after you've sowed the seed and nothing seems to have happened, and you go back next month and nothing seems to have happened. And I think the worst thing to do would be to hold on to the seed and polish it up, you know. That's that's not the idea. In in all our weakness and our in our frailty, that's where we testify to the crucified Christ. You know, we we have a word of a crucified Christ that's gonna appear foolish, it's gonna appear weak in the world's eyes. And and that's kind of that's the kind of street evangelism that I love to do. Stuff that looks weak and you know um it does look weak and stupid. It's it's not about it's not not about being polished at that point. But at that point you're sort of you're not trusting in whiz bang techniques. You're you're you're just trusting in a Lord who has a powerful word, word who wants to save, whose spirit is alive, um, and and that you do have good news, even if you, as the giver of that good news, are a cracked an earthen vessel. Um but but through those earthen vessels I think the Lord shines all the more. So So yeah, don't polish yourself up. Um enter in, be curious, love your neighbor, don't just see them as an evangelistic target. Love them, be curious, enter into their world and take Jesus with you and uh and just see, see what the Lord is up to.
SPEAKER_01We'll leave it there for this week. That uh if you have any comments about today's show or you'd like to simply share it, go to revivalmedia.org slash tep thirty eight.