On the Evangelist Podcast today, we talk to Tim Chester about social media and the gospel.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you. With Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_01Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. And on today's show we talk to Tim Chester. Glenn, who is Tim Chester?
SPEAKER_04Oh, Tim Chester's great. He's the author of uh many books and uh and some really uh quite uh important books. Uh for instance one book about with him and uh Steve Timmers called Total Church. He's also written about uh everyday church and uh Unreach does some great books to kind of give his uh philosophy of church planting. Uh he together with uh Steve Timmys uh planted the crowded house up in uh Sheffield, which is a church that is also kind of a network of other gospel communities reaching out uh in Sheffield. So we'll ask him about some of that. We can also ask him about he's written a a little book that packs a punch uh called Will You Be My Facebook Friend. Uh just about talking about social go social media and the gospel.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so uh slightly uh controversial book perhaps about uh the b the benefits, but also mainly the dangers uh of social media and and how they can trip us up.
SPEAKER_04Well it's a bo it's a book we all need to read if we're involved in social media at any level. And uh and just because at some points he points out the dangers and and points them out in a in a uh a clear way, if we feel uncomfortable about that, then I think maybe that's a sign that we like doubly need to read the book and doubly need to to heed the warnings because you know perhaps uh there are dangers that we've bought into unreflectively and unthinkingly.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well just before we speak to Tim then, uh I want to tell you about our free daily prayer bulletin. It's a small twenty-four-page booklet that tells thirty-one stories of what God is doing around the world. Did you know that Christians are saving children from the sex trade in Nepal? That churches are growing in Sri Lanka, or that churches in Hawaii are uniting for the gospel. You can hear more about it in our prayer bulletin. You can get it free of charge by going to revivalmedia.org/slash bulletin. Okay, Glenn, so we're doing this uh series in online evangelism. Uh let's have a quick recap.
SPEAKER_04Um Graham Miller from uh London City Mission. Um so that was that was really interesting. Uh thinking about well he's he's trying to reach a city and and actually seeing the online community is uh is a way in and a way to draw people into into deeper bonds of of fellowship. So that was great. Two episodes? Uh did two episodes with him.
SPEAKER_01And then uh Gavin Tight, the uh beatboxing pastor.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Um fascinating. Um yeah, he's been involved in online apologetic ministry, but he's never had uh an apologetics website. He's just threw humanbeatbox.com and all the you know the the threads he's just been being a Christian and responding to people on a regular basis. And he was saying, you know, the the bonds of fellowship actually that he felt online with this online community were were were huge, so that when they did meet face to face it was like a you know meeting a long-lost friend. So yeah, a very positive story of of kind of online engagement.
SPEAKER_01And then we had uh Matt Rich from Groundwire.
SPEAKER_04So yeah, chatting to people online, which was again fascinating that uh he gets hundreds of people, uh as many as a thousand in a month, kind of chatting at all hours and uh and revealing the deepest parts of themselves in ways that they wouldn't do if they were, you know, face to face sometimes. And and you know, that that could be a a drawback to our online presence, but actually he's kind of using it as uh as a way in and and people sharing the deepest parts of themselves and him able to share Christ with them. So a very positive use of of uh online witness.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well uh we're looking forward to to hearing from Tim.
SPEAKER_04Brilliant, fantastic to have uh Tim Chester with us um from the Crowded House in Sheffield. Uh thank you for joining us, Tim.
SPEAKER_02And you're welcome.
SPEAKER_04Brilliant. Can you just uh start off by uh telling us a little bit about the the crowded house? What is it? When did it start, and how how have you sort of seen it grow over the years?
SPEAKER_02Uh yes, crowded house, uh we started in 2000, uh meeting in a home and uh very much an intent to uh plant a church with a big emphasis on on the gospel, uh on community and on mission, and to make really um mission a kind of central uh feature of church life, uh, but also to to recognize the importance of community, both as the context for discipleship, but also actually something that's key to to mission, because uh the life that we share together, uh reconciled by the gospel, uh around the cross, uh that's uh a really key way in which we uh communicate something of the the truth and uh the power of the gospel. So we're trying to trying to find ways of doing mission together or inviting uh unbelievers to come and see the life that we have as a as a community of grace.
SPEAKER_04I've I've heard you say uh a few times that people have often wanted to come to Sheffield and see the crowded house in action, and you sort of say, well, it's it's quite difficult because it's it's just a very ordinary kind of life together kind of a thing. But but if if I was to spend a week with you, what what would you show me uh in terms of of the crowded house?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean it's a good point. I mean uh you know, we have some we have we meet together much as other churches meet together, and you know, often obviously what people often want to come and see is is our meetings, but our meetings are not really particularly innovative or um uh clever about our meetings. It is much more about doing ordinary life together, but sort of trying to suffuse that with uh gospel intentionality. So, you know, it is going to the shops with people, hanging out together, having meals. Um we put on some events, we've got a a craft night coming up, uh, which uh a number of the women are coming to, but but primarily it's about just doing the ordinary stuff of life as a community and inviting uh unbelievers. So, you know, be going for walks and cinema and m lots of meals, lots of meals, I can guarantee you lots of meals.
SPEAKER_04Okay, you've written the book on it Meal with Jesus, fantastic book.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh Tim, uh, when we say evangelism, uh different ideas occur to different people. Uh what do you think is the essence of evangelism?
SPEAKER_02Oh, I think for me it is about words that communicate the gospel. It is communicating the gospel in words. Now, those words can take myriad different forms. You know, it can be a sermon that's preached uh from the front, as it were, it can be um uh a book that someone writes, and uh uh it could be a conversation over a cup of tea. Uh so it's uh it's all sorts of forms, but at heart it's about communicating the gospel through words. I really think that as we do that, we are speaking the uh the words of God. That's how uh Peter describes it, 1 Peter 4. That that you know, we speak the very words of God, that God's voice is heard as we do that and calling people to faith and repentance. So it's uh communicating the the gospel of Jesus Christ, you know, the Son of God sent by God to rescue us from our sin, dying in our place, rising to give us new life as the promise of a new creation. It's that gospel message that uh we communicate in words, and um implicit and explicit in that is the call then to faith and repentance.
SPEAKER_04Great. So I guess sort of the community stuff and the meals together stuff is sort of the context in which that happens.
SPEAKER_02Yes, actually, I was gonna just gonna say that. I mean, and and that context I think really matters. Uh it matters not only because I mean it matters because it gives you an opportunity to speak, but also it reinforces your message because the community the church community is the great visual aid of the gospel and its power. And so it really our words uh really have a potency when they're in that context. You know, just as Jesus said, every all men will know that you're my disciples by the love that you have for one another when he gave that new command to love as he's loved. That's how people see the love of God, that's how people see something of the Savior as we mirror that, albeit imperfectly, uh, in our life and our life together. And and the imperfect bit is actually in a way quite important because we are not witnesses to good works, we're witnesses to grace. So even when we fail, even when we fall out, the way we respond to that, the way we cope with that, the way we remain committed to one another, all of that actually is a witness to God's grace to us. So, yeah, so I think that community context really matters, but that's not an alternative or a replacement for a verbal communication of the gospel message. People do need to hear words. Otherwise, they will make some assumptions. Otherwise, they'll assume that we live a good life because it's by living a good life that you're saved. Uh, if you don't speak of what Christ has done, then people will assume that what we do is what really matters.
SPEAKER_04That's interesting. So the community actually bolsters the the preaching of the grace of Christ. When actually, yeah, so so often people sort of when they when they talk about matching up proclamation with presence, they they they want to sort of underline the good the good works side of things, and you're actually saying, well, actually, if they really get to know you, um they'll they'll see the way that you're gonna be able to do that.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I mean it's a bit of both, isn't it? Because you know, you you do hope that your life together is distinctive, and that's a testimony to the power of the gospel and the power of the spirit. You know, we are a commute the the community in which God lives by his spirit, but um but you know, Christians are all a work in progress, and and and that work in progress is itself a witness to grace and and the fact that um you know we don't earn our approval, we we we have our approval through Christ, by God's grace, and we live in the light of that, and there's a certain freedom that even in the face of sin, there's a there's a freedom and a joy to be had because we know ourselves forgiven. And so again, as you say, as people get to know us and they see all our faults and failings, uh that that itself becomes an opportunity to point to grace.
SPEAKER_04I think that's that's really helped me actually sort of um re reading some of your books, yours, yours and Steve Timmys's books, have have really helped me as an evangelist. I've I've kind of almost had this sort of lone ranger view of evangelism. You know, you come you come together on a Sunday and you get fed and built up, but then you go away on your sort of lone ranger uh evangelistic kind of venture into the big, bad, nasty world. Um and I I think your writings and the writings of others have have really helped me to see uh it's what does a community on mission actually look like?
SPEAKER_02Yes, and it's not just that it's a convenient it's a sort of helpful tool for evangelism, it is actually central to the gospel. The gospel is the story of Christ winning his bride, of God saving his people. Uh you know, we we are saved. Being saved, being united with Christ means being united with his people. And so, um, because one of the problems sometimes that we can have is we say, you know, what does it mean? How do you become a Christian? Well, it's not by doing good works, it's not by going to church, uh, and so on and so on. And then we say, Oh, by the way, now that you've become a Christian, now you need to come to church. And you know, it's it's it's a it's a fair comment to then say, Well, hang on a minute, you just told me I didn't need to come to church, and we get ourselves in a pickle. Uh, whereas in fact, if we if if the gospel that we proclaim is Christ saving his bride, God saving his people, and we live that out, and people see that in as they encounter the Christian, you know, even in the evangelistic process, they're encountering a community of people, then for them, becoming a Christian become means becoming part of the church.
SPEAKER_01Wonderful. Yeah. Um, Tim, uh, we're do currently doing a series on online evangelism, and uh you wrote an interestingly titled book, Will You Be My Facebook Friend? And uh we're just wondering uh why you wrote the book.
SPEAKER_02Um I wrote it because it's I think it's a big issue that a lot of people are spending a lot of time on social media and um you know I have a strong conviction that the gospel speaks to every every area of life and social media is no exception. And um and so I wanted to explore how the gospel uh shapes how we interact with social media.
SPEAKER_01Because you in the book you're uh I mean you you talk about the benefits briefly of social media, and then you've got uh quite a lot of the the book is uh about the dangers.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and uh yeah, I mean a lot of people have sort of um come up to me as if I'm anti-Facebo or anti-social media. I'm not at all. And um I do talk about the benefits, uh, but but I think one of the things I say in the book is the benefits are obvious. The dangers are less apparent.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02And so that if if there's an imbalance in the book, that's the reason for it. Uh and and there's not actually much you can say about the benefits because most people are aware of them and there are they are real and significant, and I I don't in any way wish to downplay that. I don't please don't read the book as if you know it's a sort of nodding, grudging uh acceptance that there might be one or two benefits, but really the you know it's not it's a bad thing. Uh it's not that at all. I think there are many, many benefits, but the dangers are there too, and the dangers are less obvious.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I think uh I I was saying to Glenn just before that uh we do have a lack of understanding of of the dangers. I mean w w I think people are picking up more on the dangers, uh, but uh as you say, I think many people have have just gone blindly into it in in a sense without really thinking uh objectively about about the dangers that you list in them.
SPEAKER_04Before we have a look at the dangers, uh do like what do you see as the sort of the gospel good that that can happen through social media?
SPEAKER_02Oh I think uh in terms of gospel good, I think uh I think I would put it like this that one of the things I want to say in the book is social media is great if you use it to enhance real-world relationships. Um it's danger is when you use it to replace those. But but just think about the enhancement for a moment and just the opportunities, both you know, as Christians to um to pass on prayer news, to encourage people, to arrange things, you know, to arrange to meet up, to arrange a trip to the cinema, Christians and non-Christians, so that the non-Christians see us in relationship and and and get to encounter the Christian community. All of that is great opportunity. Uh, the other the other great opportunity I think is where, if you like, real-world relationships are not possible. So I'm thinking particularly of uh areas of the world where uh missionaries can't operate openly. And uh I mean there are a number of uh stories that I've heard of uh just people being able to connect with, to contact with people in countries that are close to the gospel, to connect with people who would have no other opportunity to hear the gospel. And I think that's a great um and very exciting uh way in which social media are being is being used.
SPEAKER_04I've found that actually ev even in this country, sort of um if I do a mission somewhere or I'm trying to do some perhaps door-to-door work or or that kind of thing, um especially in London, sort of all all sorts of kind of gated communities and and tower blocks that are difficult to get into, and you think, well how how do you well in the workplace I guess there's there's there's opportunities to to meet with people, but but Facebook in particular is becoming kind of the third space that people inhabit. Um not work, not in a sense shut off from the world, but this this is where people are socializing.
SPEAKER_02Um yes, and also I think what people are doing a lot now is and you we probably all do this in in our different ways, is we check things out online before we um you know, if I wanted to join a local um I don't know, walking club, I would I would look them up on the web and I'd have a look at what they're doing and see some photos and and uh or if I want to visit somewhere, if I want to go to a museum, I'll check it out online and I'll I'll I'll find out when it opens and what it costs. And and I think people are gonna be doing the same with with church or with Christianity even in general. You know, to to r to sort of if if you know if you're an unbeliever and you decide that maybe something's missing in your life or something happens and you want to contact a Christian, the chances are you're not gonna rock up to the the uh vicarage or the manse or whatever, knock on the door and say, Tell me about Jesus, because that's a pretty scary thing to do. You're probably gonna make your first your first step may well be made online these days. And so to have a presence on the web, whether that's within your local church and embedded in in your church website, or whether it's sort of independent sites, or whether it's on a more ad hoc uh basis through social media, I think for many people they'll make their first kind of inquiry about the Christian faith uh online, uh, because that's that's what we're all doing these days.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. In fact, I I've met a couple of people in the last couple of months, and in two occasions with two different churches, they said that they actually listened to the sermons for six months at least. Oh, yes, okay. Checking out the church, feeling you know, feeling them out, and then came and and came to Christ.
SPEAKER_02Um one of the well and I think one of the the lessons for that is that as for churches is on your website put some photos up and or even a sort of time-lapse recording of a meeting or just something so that because walking into a church building for many people is a strange thing to do. I did an e somebody was reminding me of this this weekend. I did an exercise once where I asked a church to go and place a bet on a horse in a betting shop. And um uh it was I mean, it was a very I I and I I did it myself, it was a fascinating exercise. Half the people refused to do it point blank. And those that did, like me, were just found the whole experience just I mean, I'd never done anything like that before, completely confusing, and we didn't know I mean I still don't know quite what I did and whether I did it right, or and the woman you know was looking at me as if I was weird because no doubt I wasn't doing the right thing. Well, that's that that's most experience m many people's experience of coming to churches like that. I mean, they're just either they're just not gonna do it because that church is just such a weird and alien place to them. Uh but if they do, then they're you know they're they they're gonna feel out of water like a fish out of water. They're not gonna know what to do. And so even just showing what the inside of your building is like, um, I think will help people make that first step, cross the cross the threshold.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So then what what do you see as the dangers, therefore, of of social media? What should what should we be a aware of as Christians?
SPEAKER_02Uh well, in the book I I highlight a couple, and uh one of them is that I think that what's going on a lot is that people are using social media, let's let's focus on Facebook for a moment, but but I think it's true of all of them, to kind of using their words to create or recreate their world or uh or their image. And so um on Facebook, your Facebook profile, you populate that with a presentation of yourself for the approval of others, and uh so there are a number of think elements there that that are that are potentially dangerous. One is that you kind of create this image that doesn't match reality, uh, but also you're doing it for the approval of other people. And so um it's a kind of what you're getting then is to sort of uh is is a kind of self-justification through your words. Um that is you know, you are seeking to win approval, um, and the mechanism that you use is is your words, your creating words. Now, even to use to describe it in those terms is to sh is is is to point to how that is a kind of alternative gospel. It is self-justification through our words rather than justification through faith in God's words or God's promise. Uh, you can see the contrast already there. And and there's a lot of evidence, not not particularly from Christian people, but just that that uh people who use Facebooks a lot are often lonely, often depressed, and Facebook doesn't help. It makes things worse. And it's not hard to see how the dynamic of that works. See, if I have um if I go online, I've had a miserable day. I go online and I see my um friends' uh profiles and they're all very positive. You know, it's lots of pictures of them having fun, lots of little descriptions of them having a good time, and I think, well, my life is is so miserable compared to that to them. And so people feel people feel depressed or down, they they suffer by comparison without ever realizing, without ever thinking that in fact their profile, their Facebook profile is presenting an equally positive version of their life. Um, and so you get into this sort of weird competition that nobody wins. Um and and and you know, at its root is this desire to to have the approval, to win approval from other people uh through our words rather than you know receiving the approval of God by grace through faith in His. Words and and his promise of salvation in Christ. So I mean, so so that means it's a great opportunity, of course, too. So that you know, in a sense, there's a diagnosis of the problem, but also there's a there's a great way of using a discussion around Facebook to talk about justification by faith. You know, justification by faith is not simply this rather esoteric theological doctrine that has something to do with the final day of judgment, it it it has direct relevance to the way people use social media, and that means it's a great social media then is a great opportunity to talk about to make this doctrine something that really lives for people and connects with the reality of their lives.
SPEAKER_01I suppose what you were saying about uh the the positive side of of media, um the opposite would be to sort of post everything negative about your life uh to try and balance it. I mean, how open and honest should we be online? Can we overshare stuff because uh we lack good offline friendships?
SPEAKER_02Yes, I I think the issue is is the lack of offline friendships or or real real friendships as I like to call them, or real-world friendships, let's call that let's use that rather than virtual world friendships. You see, Facebook is public space, and I think um what we're doing is you know, we live in this celebrity culture where we chew over the minuti of the lives of celebrity. Well, what Facebook is really saying is that we can all be celebrities, we can all have this public life that is out there for the consumption of everyone, and um I think that actually what what we miss in that is the importance of of real-world uh intimate relationships. And um, and so my my sort of broad advice, as it were, would be to use Facebook to enhance those real world relationships. So it's not a question of how much do you share, but so much as what do you use it for, and rather than sort of do this deep emotional sharing of good things or bad things, it's more about use it as a mechanism for keeping in touch, sharing some news, and organizing your social world, you know, arranging to meet up and and spend time with people and so on. So it's so it's an enhancement of real world relationships.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_04What what other dangers do you see in in terms of social media? At at a point you you sort of talk about the time that people spend online.
SPEAKER_02Would that be something else that uh Yes, I mean I think that that is significant, and when you look at the statistics, I can't recall now. I mean, I think it's something like on average, people are using it.
SPEAKER_04Twenty hours a month in your in your book you say twenty hours a month, that's sort of a lot of people. Twenty hours a month is average.
SPEAKER_02That's Facebook's own figures. Yeah, yeah. Um I conscious that people are multitasking, though that too, as a rather grumpy middle-aged man, slightly alarms me because it suggests to me that they're not actually quite doing the other thing that they're doing at the same time. Um but but but for me the time issue, I think the time issue is a problem, but but really it's a symptom. And it's a symptom of of because what it suggests is that people really get something out of Facebook. Facebook really does something for them that is quite significant. The time use is a symptom of of the fact that Facebook has this um uh it is just it's just become too important for people. And you know, the test of that is to is to challenge someone to do without it for a month. And some people, you know, that won't be an issue. But but but if someone recoils at the very thought of it, that would suggest to me that they are getting something from Facebook that is um that is actually in some way a God's substitute, and so it might be the approval. You know, how will how will I get approval, a sense of approval, if I'm not getting my Facebook likes kind of thing, or my Facebook followers. Um or another thing I think that's going on is Facebook allows you to kind of it allows you to be sovereign. Um, you can be kind of uh omnipresent, you can kind of be everywhere, you can be omniscient, you can kind of know everything that's going on, but but even more significant, I think this is the genius of Facebook, is that it allows you to create a world where you are surrounded by your friends and family, whilst simultaneously allowing each of them to create a world where they are surrounded by their friends and family. Can you see how that works? I mean, it's it's genius, really, it is. But the problem with it is that each of us then inhabits a world where I am at the centre. Yeah, and so I become this kind of sovereign person, knowing everything, being everywhere, certainly everywhere that matters to me, and I am at the centre, and everybody else is there for me. And I mean the genius is that simultaneously they're all doing that at the same time. But but the reality is, of course, that it's not my world. And now we talk, you know, just it it's uh MySpace. I mean, I know MySpace is somewhat passe now, but but there's a you know it's a clue, it's about a space that's all about me. Uh but it's not my space, it's not my world, it's God's world. And um but but you know, how lovely to be God and to be in control and to be at the center, you know, that that that that that's what Facebook provides, but it's it's idolatrous in the end. Okay.
SPEAKER_04Uh how would you respond to uh um uh read a article by uh Adam Jesky, I don't know how you pronounce that word, Jesk. Um he's the he describes himself as the social media czar for intervarsity in the US. And um and he wrote this very interesting article that says um social media is bad for our souls, that is precisely why we need to use social media, because social media is also bad for our friends' souls, and we need to love our friends. Um Do you see that as an argument for moving into that space and saying yes, there are all those drawbacks and there will always be drawbacks drawbacks with new technologies, but precisely for that reason, let's inhabit it in a Christian way. Do you do you see that as a as a kind of a a comeback?
SPEAKER_02Um I'm just trying to I mean, yes and no. I mean no in the sense that I'm not sure if the logic of that works. I mean, you could say strip joints are bad for your soul, therefore we should inhabit them because they're bad for the other people's souls. There, I you know, I mean I'm not quite sure if that that logic really goes. I do think though it is helpful. I mean, I I'm all for people inhabiting that the social uh social media as it were. Um but my I still I go back to my rule of thumb, use it to enhance real-world relationships rather than replace them. And um in terms of reaching people, um if it's a question of reaching people in your locality, you know, the people you're bumping into, the uh connecting with them on Facebook, keeping in touch, and then arranging to meet up, inviting them to um, you know, it's Christmas is coming, inviting them to a carol service, all of that's great. If it's about connecting with people who have no other opportunity to hear the gospel, again, that's great. I mean, ideally sooner or later you want to be connecting, you know, if you meet a stranger online and it start showing the gospel, at some point you're gonna be wanting to connect them with the real world, you know, you a real church with real people, um, where they have to be real, you know, they can't they can't pretend, they can't create this uh uh um superficial image of themselves, so they will they'll be really known, and uh that's the opportunity then when they can really grow. So so the point is just you know, you're by all means get involved in social media, but but as a sort of rule of thumb in the back of your head kind of thing, be thinking about how can I use this to enhance real-world relationships or to enhance real-world opportunities for mission and discipleship.
SPEAKER_04So Tim Talys uh has a great line, sort of digital disincarnation, he calls it, in in terms of our disembodied sort of status online. Um do you have any tips for how we get from that digital disincarnation to having meals with each other and and and into community? I mean, how how can Facebook be kind of used and and Twitter and and the rest of it used positively in in in terms of of hooking people into community?
SPEAKER_02Yes, I mean the digital disincarnation line comes from in the context of talking about how you know we are embodied people, uh, which is just the fancy way of saying we all have a body, and and the body limits us. You know, you can't be in two places at once. Um and you know, and even just being in a room with people, you realize that you're not the center of the world, there are other people in the room, and um you know, every now and then you bump into them, you know, you're you're not free even just to move across the room uh uh at will, as it were. And and whereas online, you know, you're you're kind of disembodied and you can recreate yourself. You know, I can go online and pretend to be a 20-year-old woman, or you know, uh at the more extreme end, or I can I can portray this version of Tim Chester that's that's unreal, and uh I can escape the limitations of my body, but but but the gospel, you know, or well not even the gospel, you know, life is you know, we we were created as embodied people, and the gospel is the great affirmation of that because Christ was resurrected bodily and uh ascended bodily, and we believe in the resurrection of the body, you know. So so so the limitations of that are are important, uh, but actually that is the life that we were created for. So again, it's about using social media to enhance those real-world interactions, those real-world friendships. And uh, again, there's the not not again, not particularly Christian uh research, but but um but certainly fitting a Christian world view. What people have found is that people who've used social media as that mechanism for enhancing real-world relationships uh are um are are happier, and uh um uh and and that's a very positive experience compared to those who use it as a kind of alternative who tend to find that um uh you know who just tend to be more depressed in in terms of the uh findings of the sociological research.
SPEAKER_04Did you did you see there's a study out today, the BBC were talking about we're recording this on the twenty sixth of November, and a study out today polled 15,000 Britons and said we're having less sex than we were ten years ago. And uh one one of the people involved in the study said uh I think that uh modern technologies are behind the trend too. He said uh people have tablets and smartphones and they're taking them into the bedroom and using Twitter and Facebook, answering emails. And uh and and he was he was saying this is this is part of the reason. So perhaps it goes goes towards your thesis.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, you know, I I mean, you know, so one of my little uh uh tips at the end of the book is don't allow mobile phones in the bedroom or at the meal table. I mean just have a just ban them. I mean, why would you do that? I anyway, but here we are maybe giving myself away. But um you know, I that has no appeal to me at all. You know, because you're sat with a group of people around the table. Enjoy the people you're with. Yeah. And uh don't be distracted by the people that you're not with. And you know, those texts can all wait. And those those Twitter updates, you know, finding out what some celebrity had for breakfast, that can wait until you've had your breakfast, you know.
SPEAKER_04They are very helpful, your your twelve guidelines at the end of the book. Um so I I th I think I'd agree with sort of ten and a half of them. Uh um I got I got questions about um number seven. We we'll we'll post up your twelve guidelines to the um the program page so people can check them out. But um uh you you do at one point in number seven say um don't accept as online friends people that you don't know offline.
SPEAKER_02Uh no, it's no, you read the whole thing, it's don't let children have unsupervised interesting. Or accept as online friends people you don't know offline.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02So don't let your seven and a half friends. Don't don't let your children have friends on Facebook that you don't know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, I I actually to totally agree with you.
SPEAKER_04Okay, yes, me, me too. Yeah, so you converted me.
SPEAKER_01We're we're we're having this uh with our kids at the moment. My my my two oldest kids are ten and eight, and uh they they love this particular website and they come on and get friended by uh people. It's like a uh dressing up game and stuff like that. And uh please can I accept this person's friend, you know? And I said, No, you can't, you know, you don't know them. You know, they're saying that they're a ten-year-old boy or something or other, but they might not be. And it's it's kind of passing on the revelation to the child that the person that they perceive to be you know, is is not actually themselves.
SPEAKER_04And you also say uh number nine, set aside a day a week as a technology sabbath or fast. Um does that mean are you saying that um social media is inherently something that needs distance from and and sort of can't be engaged, you know, in a uh seven days a week kind of thing by saying that?
SPEAKER_02No, no. And and and I mean I say at the top that that I'm not trying to be prescriptive and I'm not trying to and they're not supposed to be a Ten Commandments kind of uh uh level of um moral certitude. Um No, I think for some people that'll be helpful. I mean I don't particularly do that, so I have to say I'm notorious for ignoring my I I never put my phone on. My phone's always on silent and so I it never interrupts anything. And so every now and then, you know, two or three times a day I'll see if I've got text or I mean that's just how I do it. So so so it doesn't it doesn't often intrude. Um I can't work with and I don't think I don't actually think anyone can, but I can't work I can't write a book or read a book or work on a sermon if every two or three minutes this thing beside me is buzzing and and and and pulling my mind away. I can't you can't sustain a level of train of thought there. And um so so I mean I I'm not trying to be prescriptive, I don't I I'm not um saying that but but but this is the point I want to make. I do think there are some activities that you can't do, you certainly can't do well if you're being interrupted, and that that includes making love, being a lover, it includes being a worshiper, it includes praying, it includes reading God's word. You know, that there are these there are these activities that that you you just ought to do, done best. That's my cautious end in saying they're best done without constant interruption, but I don't know that you really do them well if you're being interrupted all the time. And you know, quite how you organise that I don't really mind. But but I think I mean I'm not a sabbatarian in in the sense that I don't think the fourth commandment, uh, you know, I think we are we we are free, you know, we find our rest in Christ. But that kind of old tradition of of a day when you um that was given over to the enjoyment of of God, uh spending time in his word and prayer. We need to recover something of that, I think. Of slowing down and of um focusing, meditating. And I don't I don't want to be prescriptive about what form that should take, how you organize that, but we're always in a hurry and we always want the latest thing. And you know, it comes back to um Isaiah 40, is it and that's quoted by Peter in One Peter uh end of 1 Peter 1, you know, that human beings are like grass the grass of the field, they're here today, gone tomorrow. And you know, the words of human beings uh here today, gone tomorrow. And so much of Facebook and Twitter is here today, gone tomorrow, but the word of God endures forever. And so we need to we need to feel that and feel the weight of that, I think. That that that that the thing that endures forever is the word of God, and the thing that creates, therefore, that creates character, a character an enduring character, a a character of substance and of us that will that will endure through the hard times, the thing that creates that in a person is the word of God. And uh let's not let's not get distracted from that by the latest Twitter update.
SPEAKER_04Is there a sense in which I mean y you're a a great blogger as well as an author, is there is there a sense in which perhaps with blogging your your gifting is is very much with with sort of words and you you can sort of sustain a a six hundred word, one thousand word kind of arguments on a blog and and you enjoy doing that. Other other people they might say, well, you know, I've I I'm not so much a blogger. I can microblog on my on my Twitter feed or I can I can do my Facebook thing. But could pe could people say to you, well, well Tim, you you just enjoy blogging and and you haven't particularly come out swinging for for blogging, but you have for Facebook, and that's just that's just your bag and my bag's different. Could could someone make that argument to you?
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, I mean my response would be a couple of things. One is well no, I mean it's probably the same response really. I if you know if you go on my blog, there's not very much about me on it. And in fact, I uh I hesitate to I this this is good this is not gonna end well because because I'm talking to an Australian. The only times I've ever um ever um um broken that rule is when England have won the ashes. Yeah but since that's looking a bit shaky at this moment in time, I probably should keep quiet on that. But but you know, anyway, that's but that you know so I'm it's not it's because I I have I've told somebody to stop blogging uh in a pastoral situation, and I think I mentioned it in the book. It was a it was a young woman who who wrote a blog and it was all about her, and um but the issue was you know the problem was her life was as humdrum as anybody else's, but so in that so therefore she had to but but in order to make the blog interesting, she had to constantly kind of create these problems that she uh angst that she had to overcome, and so you know she became the hero of this story, and it was just it wasn't doing her soul good because it was very kind of oriented around her and her struggle, which and you know, and and all the small things of life had to be had to become a big struggle in order that she could somehow overcome them and tell the story on her blog, and you know, it so so so so blogs are not not blogs are not necessarily any better. And if somebody is um uh using Twitter to sort of send out some Bible verses or to uh you know to uh uh you know, all that's fine. I'm not I'm not anti-Twitter at all. Um it's it's using Twitter or Facebook or a blog. I mean a blog can blog can be just as bad to to kind of recreate this world where you win other people's approval through your words and and you're at the centre and it's all about you. That that's the issue.
SPEAKER_04Uh I guess that points to the what the redemption of it looks like. The redemption of it looks like pointing to Christ, you know in heaven.
SPEAKER_02And actually, in the end, I don't care whether you do that in in 400 words on a blog or 140 characters on Twitter.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. And if I if I came to your church and I started live tweeting your sermon, what would you do?
SPEAKER_02Uh one or two people do that.
SPEAKER_04And I mean Does Steve Timmons do it just to annoy you?
SPEAKER_02Uh maybe he does it just to annoy me, yes. I I mean I don't mind it because that I I recognise that some people kind of that's a way that they find helpful of engaging with the sermon. So I'm not I'm not anti that. Uh I just as as long as as long as they're not checking up the um latest cricket score or something else, which I think is because that it's it's about giving your mind to the moment that you're in.
SPEAKER_04Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02And and and and that's I think true of all sorts of areas of life, whether that's a meal with your wife or uh time with your children, but even more so with with this encounter as a community with God's word, give yourself to that in that moment. So but if you want to make some notes on your on your uh tablet or you want to tweet a thought, then you know that's fine. But but but but there you are in that moment uh and not somewhere else at the same time, which is which is what the technology allows us to be. It allows us to be in two places at once, in a way. But no, give yourself to that moment and that moment of time.
SPEAKER_04Well, Tim, thank you so much. You've given us uh a lot of your time. And I'm sure you haven't been uh checking your Facebook updates while you've done that. So we're very, very uh grateful for that because it it it it is a a a huge area and and um and we need to know how how to be Christian uh in this area of life. So so thanks so much for giving us your time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thank you. You're welcome. There's a lot of food for thought there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh particularly those those twelve guidelines. Well what kind of struck you most about what he was saying?
SPEAKER_04I think uh I I I saw online, interestingly, I I saw uh a little video that Tim Keller, uh pastor in um uh New York City, made uh recently and he w he was just uh commenting on um the greatest thing about you know the generation of the millennials and the and the sort of the dark side um of of that generation coming up and and he said, you know, the greatest thing is that these millennials love community and community this, community that. If you talk about community they are there and they are on board. But then he said the dark side is that um so many don't want to make the sacrifices that you need in order to have a community. Um and as Tim Chester was speaking just now, I was sort of putting two and two together and and and sort of if if our experiences of community have been almost exclusively online community, then it doesn't call forth certainly as much as it does in a church community, for instance. In a church community you are giving yourself for the other. Online, I don't really have to give you myself at all. I can appear offline to you know, even if I'm on Facebook and you know, change the settings and that kind of thing. So that was interesting.
SPEAKER_01It's depth, isn't it? There's kind of a a you know, a shallower uh depth that you can have with a thousand people. Whereas in real life, you know, you probably don't uh associate with with more than two hundred, I don't know, but uh yeah, I would want to say that real life is Facebook.
SPEAKER_04I mean, you know, if I'm I'm a real person engaging in Facebook and and you know the person on the other end of Facebook is a real person and then I can have real relationships and and I can be a real Christian in that environment. Um so I w I would want to say all that and I would want to say that I've I've met people through uh Twitter and through blogging um that I would never have met otherwise and have very deep friendships and and the and sacrificial friendships and and all that sort of stuff. So I don't think it's uh yeah, I don't think it's an unreal uh world. And I think it is a world that we can inhabit Christianly but I think so raises all the right questions that we should be asking. I think there are answers to the questions but these are the questions to be asking, and I think it's an important book to grapple with and and uh I guess we can put uh put a link uh to it on the show notes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and we'll we'll list uh these twelve guidelines which are good common sense, I think.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I've I've come round now. And you know, maybe maybe even a day off a week, but um I'm I'm at least with uh eleven out of twelve, I think uh uh spot on. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Excellent. Well if you've got any comments about uh today's show or would like to ask any questions uh or if you'd simply like to share it, you can go to this uh show's uh web address which is simply revivalmedia.org slash TEP35. And why not, while you're on the page there, uh why not just simply share it with someone else? It helps to uh get us seen more widely. If you've got a friend that would find this interesting or or maybe post it on your Facebook page or tweet it then uh it would just uh No matter how shallow the friendship, we'd love you. That would be great. Okay, thanks very much.