Today on the Adventures Podcast, we're talking to Graham Mr. 15 minutes. We've got to do this. We've got 10 stars last time. So we got last time about online witnesses and particularly how it relates to London City Mission. Graham, uh London City Mission exists with all London. Now how does the internet fit into that? Because it's you know obviously worldwide, not geographically located as such.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, in the in the past it didn't fit in at all. Uh it's really only um maybe three or four years ago that uh people became aware of the the power of the internet, and uh even today we don't have uh specific people who full-time are um are dedicated to making the most of the internet opportunities. Um but it's very much something that uh I I have on my heart, and uh I I think it's it's the way people communicate today, and so we need to be able to speak the language that people are communicating in. If people are speaking internet, then we need to uh we need to get them there.
SPEAKER_03How have you seen the internet used effectively for evangelism?
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, yes, I have I have done. Um so actually some of our missionaries are doing it uh just off their own bat. Um I I've seen people having open discussions over the internet. It can that can be more difficult because um y uh you end up with one or two trolls who just want to hammer uh hammer the internet evangelist uh for the fun of it and it's it's futile. Uh what I've seen more effective is having kind of walled gardens where people are uh uh invited to a particular group uh for discussion. And you can have still pretty heated debates, but it ev everyone's there on the understanding that we're trying to be constructive and not um not being foolish. So I've I've seen Facebook used for that, I've seen uh Twitter discussions. Uh in the past we would we would often set up cafes uh and community centres to get people meeting together and then we'd go and meet them there and share the gospel there. I guess a forum on the internet is the new is the new cafe where people meet, so yeah, we we still need to be meeting people there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. What would you like to see in the future as regard to uh online evangelism?
SPEAKER_02Well, just as I've uh as I said uh last last week thinking about uh London, a one size fits all doesn't always work with uh with the whole of London. Polish people are different to Caribbean people who are different from Bangladeshi people who are different from white middle class people, and so actually finding uh having the resources there in different different languages and also in different um kind of cultural worldviews to be able to really reach out to people would be would be ideal. Um I've been one of our missionaries, intiaz Khan, has has really done a lot of thinking uh to relate to angry young Muslim men who've been trained up in um kind of anti-Christian apologetics, who w want to be able to go verse for verse, to be able to challenge uh Christians to uh think more deeply about Islam. And he he's able to refute those things. I would like to see the kind of resources that he's put together, he at the moment he'll share them with about 30 people in a training session uh down the east end. The internet gives him the opportunity to share that much, much more widely. So both the the basic resources being there, so you should be able to go online and think, oh, I'm meeting with a Somali friend tomorrow. Let me get some useful resources to share with them. Um I'd like there to be more resources, but also more specialists who can actually hit the different target groups.
SPEAKER_03I mean, obviously one of the drawbacks of of the internet is it's not face-to-face, and so you know, obviously the ideal is you know an embodied kind of face-to-face relationship where you can physically serve somebody else and that kind of thing. Um but um Does does that mean that sort of internet evangelism is a dead loss, or do should we should we just concentrate on having people over for meals and that kind of thing?
SPEAKER_02Or well I I think it can only ever be part of the answer because at the end I I really believe that churches need to be the best the best apologetic and the best gospel witness. That the the love of a community together is uh is just an amazing an amazing thing. Um I I was talking to an African brother today from Zambia who was saying, oh the problem with the problem with Christianity in the UK is that people are so private uh that their lives are hidden away, and actually the gospel witness is hidden away because people are being loving, but it's all behind closed doors because no one can actually see their life because we're a bit reserved and we don't share life with one another. Um I actually think uh the internet then um is an opportunity for us to knock down some of the walls.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02Um people can see my thoughts, my opinions, what I'm up to, uh pretty much 24 hours a day on Twitter or Facebook, and they can see the real Graham and they can see whether I'm being loving or whether I'm losing my temper and getting angry with with people. Um I think I think it does give us an opportunity to uh to to be a powerful witness to to friends and family in a real way and to uh and to strangers who we've never even met. But I I still think it's it's just part of the picture. So whereas in the past London City Mission would be getting along, meeting someone at a cafe, for example, but encouraging them to get stuck into church, um, you know, it's still just a step on the way. We still need people to be followed up on.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. Actually, I hadn't I hadn't really thought of that before in in in terms of actually social media uh makes us more sharing, gets over our reserve. I think that's yeah, that's absolutely true, isn't it? I guess people can see your status on your Facebook instantly and and then judge you against your status. If you call yourself a Christian, they can kind of hold you to that, I suppose.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, if if I'm the head of London City Mission and I put I put photos up there that I think are quite funny of me getting drunk on a on a Friday night, because uh you know that people think, oh right, so that's the kind of person that's the kind of person you are, then Graham. Oh well that's interesting to know. Uh uh it it's uh I I when I was in China, I was completely under the spotlight 24 hours a day. I pretty much had to assume that my phone was being tapped and I was being watched by the security guards outside my flat, and uh people were talking about me. There was a babysitter helping out around the house, who I know was friends with, a secretary who was working in my office, who was friends with someone else who went to church with me on a Sunday, and my my whole life was under scrutiny, and so I it made me think, wow, I have to uh live a I really have to live a joined up life. Um people are gonna see me get a bit cross and they'll have to see how I cope with that as a Christian, and uh to a certain extent uh that happens today for the average person who's on social media all day, that people are seeing how their uh their friends can see what they're like.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And these are things that Christians should bear in mind as they use social media. Um do you think that Christians give much thought to their online witness?
SPEAKER_02From my experience, just I think I look at some of my friends, I think often very, very little. Um, so I'm I'm seeing it flash up on the screen telling me that in work hours they're playing Candy Crush or something like that. But you know, it's a you know, it's all all very well. But I actually you know they're meant to be they're meant to be Christians and so they're sealing off their boss because that's work time, and you think, well, that's not it's not really a good a good witness, but because it's seen as a bit of a game, oh I'm just playing on the internet for a while, um it it it's all right to put put out dirty jokes or or or put up a photo which is slightly racist, or in fact, uh with as Christians we need to be Christian twenty-four hours a day. That's that's really what we're what we're called to. We're and uh kids my kids see me. If if I'm you know preaching Christianity on a Sunday, but then I'm screaming at my wife through the week, they'll see that I'm being a hypocrite and they'll think, yeah, that Christianity is a load of rubbish. And it it's just the same with our our friends and family who are watching us on social media. Um we really need to have an integrity. And I I would encourage uh it's the kind of thing that should be said from the front of a church, just not not all the time, but once a year. Are you are you being a good witness in every aspect of your life? In the workplace with your attitude to your boss, on social media with your attitudes that you're sharing there, are you are you being a good witness twenty-four hours a day in front of your kids? And it it's just another part of that. So uh social media has become part of the world we live in.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh and we need to stop treating it as a game where it's alright to mess around and behave badly.
SPEAKER_03I I often find sort of bitterness and unforgiveness and and just sort of harsh words are kind of the the thing that you see on sort of Facebook walls all over the place. Just people, you know, my boss did this to me and what an idiot, and and just out it comes. And I was reading uh Philippians 2.
SPEAKER_02I go I guess I guess people feel that there's a secrecy to it. So you you you end up with um with the road rage effect where it's all right to scream at someone when you where you're in the safety of your own car, whereas if you banged into them on the street face to face, you'd apologize. Um and it ha happens all the time. Uh uh if Mark Driscoll or uh Tim Keller, John MacArthur, they they say something, you'll you'll see a a a load of vitriol poured out upon them by by fellow Christians. And you just think, why why are you doing that? We all know as as Christians, if someone offends you, you're meant to go to them privately, first of all. So have you have you sent them an individual email? Have you have you done any of those things, or are you just spouting um straight off because that's uh you know giving bent to your spleen? I I would uh I would very much encourage people just to see this as another aspect of their of their life that everyone is looking in at.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I I I was reading uh Philippians 2 14. Do we do all things without grumbling or arguing, and I just thought, well, that's that's kind of social media, isn't it? We we sort of grumble about one thing and then we argue about what about the grumbling. But uh but what what a different witness it would be to to s model something different of of Christian contentment and joy and building others up. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I mean I think I think it's alright to uh there's certain things it's alright to work through in in public. So uh if you're thinking of quitting your job, I I don't think you should discuss it publicly because your boss is gonna find out and it will be uh embarrassing. But uh recently I've been deciding uh which school to m send my son to, and I've I've shared some of my worries with with friends, and non-christ both non-Christian and Christian friends have been able to look at it and think, wow, I'm really trying to think what is gonna be helpful in in moulding a godly young person. And of course the parents are gonna be the main person, but there's still a attitude of the school. And so should I be sending my kids to the place that's gonna train them for Oxbridge, or should should I send them to the place that is got a really wonderful Christian headmaster and is going to be teaching them the right way to live? What are my decision points? And I I I've had a go at just talking that through and worrying about it and letting people think about it. I i it's a helpful thing, but w we should be a bit careful when we start saying, Oh, well, I I'm really hate my boss and uh because it it's not a Christian sentiment. If you've got a bad issue with your boss, you should really go and talk to him.
SPEAKER_03Yes. And what about beyond kind of um modelling something positive about the Christian life per se? Um how how do we go about sort of positively engaging um gospel conversations online, do you think?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well again, um I think that one of the best witnesses is of um churches working working together. Uh so the way people love each other, the way you know I move house and people offer to help me out and uh I I've got some issue and somewhat uh allowing allowing my non-Christian family to see all of that is a w is a wonderful thing. So um just um just the sharing life with people and allowing them to see, yeah, we need to get on and be loving and kind and helpful. And uh if I found a verse in the Bible this morning which is a real inspiration to me, uh explaining why it was an inspiration to me, it doesn't I'm not um I'm not having to kind of uh uh stand and spout hell fire to all my friends and family every morning, but I can share something about my walk in a in a personal way. Because it's social media, it's not the same as sending out an email to everybody. It can have a look or they can ignore it however much they want. Um it's actually quite a safe it's a safe way to share something uh about my faith with with friends and family where they can just block me if they if they're no longer interested.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I often have that same kind of um questioning in mind. I've I've got I've got a number of non-Christian followers on on Twitter and just always trying to think, well, okay, two-thirds Bible verses going out there and then and then maybe one third, you know, playing silly uh hashtag pun games and that kind of thing to try and bait the hook a little bit. But uh they're awful. Don't look right at all. Every hashtag from me just muted.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the the uh the other thing is I think we need to be careful when we get into argue when we get into discussions with with people about our face, we need to be careful just the same as uh as when we're face to face with someone that we're we're dealing with the issues and not the man. So it can quite quickly be degenerate into uh you said this, you're you're a horrible person, and it becomes personal.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02And trying to keep um rather like interview practice for someone who's going to appear on TV, you need to s remember what you're trying to get across. Yeah, but Jesus loved the lost and he reached out to all kinds of people. Oh yeah, but you Christians are all rubbish. You like you never do anything for the lost, yeah. But uh we do make mistakes, but the good news is Jesus came for all kinds of people. When he came, he came for tax flexors and prostitutes and stuff. Yeah, but so and so is a Christian, they did that. Yeah, well, they'll have to stand up in front of God themselves about about those issues, as we all will. But the good thing is as a Christian, we've got hope that we can be forgiven because we put our faith in Jesus and we keep, you know, we keep coming back to the the issue of Jesus. So I I think there's uh I've seen a few times when it's gone wrong where people have got quite personal and horrible, and of course it's it's not just then between two people when it's embarrassing, but it's in front of uh several thousand followers and uh and it brings the good news of Jesus into disrespute. So it I think I think people do have to be careful, just as you do when you're going down in black and white, uh I give more thought to writing a letter to someone uh than I would about what I say to them. If when I go onto the internet it's going down in history, so yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um Graham, we're we're nearly at the end. Do you think there's a a place for if you like blocking out a morning or something and and specifically to go out and do uh online evangelism?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think there's a role for online evangelists just as a so not everyone's called to be an evangelist, but everyone should be ready to share the good news. Not everyone's meant to be an online evangelist, but everyone should be sharing their life in a Christian way. And uh and yeah, for for the few who are particularly good at it, good at their apologetics, and then looking looking for those opportunities, it's very easy on Facebook. You can set up a group, you invite a whole bunch of people to it, and you put all kinds of interesting news stories and just discuss the news, just put put things in there. That's what that's what I've seen done at London City Mission. Uh people said, have you have you seen uh electricity bills? What do you what do you think about that? They're all going up by 30%. Uh you'd be surprised. It's a short walk from a serious conversation to a gospel conversation. And so we need to be uh we need to be looking up for those opportunities. And yes, a few people should dedicate half a day a week to it.
SPEAKER_03Brilliant. Well, thank you so much, Graeme. That's been very helpful, not only last week, thinking about uh the work of London City Mission, but also thinking about our online uh witness. Uh people can catch up with your ministry, lcm.org.uk, is that right?
SPEAKER_02That's right, or they can follow me at windy underscore London.
SPEAKER_03Fantastic. And I do. And uh and you're you're always linking to very, very interesting things. So thank you.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for thanks.
SPEAKER_03Blessings on you both. Bye now, bye bye.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for listening to the podcast today. If you have any comments about today's code, we'd like to share.
SPEAKER_03Um, I I still remember I shared it lots on Facebook a couple of years ago. And uh and I've now gone onto his website and he's uh he's basically um kind of wrapped his way through uh all of Luke's gospel. So yeah, no, it's fantastic. We'll we'll listen to some of that and uh and uh see how he has sought to kind of engage with folks online. He's uh he's a minister in the Church of England and uh also sees himself as a as a very much an evangelist. And yeah, it'd be great to uh think about online witness with him.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well we'll we'll look forward to that next time. Just before we finish, I want to tell you about our daily prayer bulletin. It's a small 24-page book that tells 31 stories of what God is doing around the world. Did you know that the Church of Egypt is united in prayer despite the recent unrest or that the Way You tribe in Colombia are involved in Bible training? Or you can hear more about it in our prayer bulletin. You can get it free of charge by going to revivalmedia.org slash bulletin. Again, the web address for this episode where you can comment and share, etc., is revivalmedia.org slash PEP thirty-two.