Today on the Evangelist Podcast, we're looking at the Gospel presentation 321.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you. With Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_01Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. This is the show where we encourage you in your witness to your friends, family, and even complete strangers. If you like listening each week, we would really appreciate a rating and review on iTunes. It helps us get seen by more people. Just go to revivalmedia.org slash iTunes. That will take you directly to the podcast page on iTunes where you can leave us a review. We'd be really grateful if you could do that. So, Glenn, we looked last time at the introduction to the three to one gospel presentation. Yeah. And this time we're going to start looking at three. That's right. And I think it would be wise if we just uh listen to the three part of the presentation.
SPEAKER_02Three, two, one. The story of God, the world, and you. Three. God is three persons united in love. In the beginning there were three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Not three different gods, one God who is an unbreakable unity of three. A tri-unity, or trinity. The Trinity is not a maths problem or an ancient riddle. It's the good news that God is love. Forever the Father has loved his son in the unity of the Spirit. How do we picture this? Well, the Son of God is the image of God. He gives us our window onto God's life. So, for instance, picture his baptism. There we see the Holy Spirit descending on him, while the Father declares, You are my Son who I love, with you I am well pleased. That's a snapshot of God's eternal life. The Father has always been loving his son with the joy of the Holy Spirit. But this love was too good to keep to themselves. The God of love wants to share. And so the Father made a world through his son and by his spirit, because he wants billions more children to join the family. You and I were made to hear his verdict. You are my child who I love. With you I am well pleased. The meaning of life is to find our place in the three.
SPEAKER_01So that was three from the three two one gospel presentation, and next time we're going to be looking at two. Not many people would start with the Trinity and explaining the gospel. I mean, isn't it a bit too deep?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like third year of theology degree or something.
SPEAKER_02Or at least your third degree. Your third theology degree is talking about three. Um so three is God is three persons united in love. So that's that's where the presentation three two one begins. God is three persons united in love, and of course, yeah, we're talking about Trinity. And uh yeah, you might think all of a sudden we're behind the eight ball before we've even begun our evangelism. And you might object that, well, you know, the Bible doesn't use the word Trinity, so why should we? And uh and at that point I always say, Well, yeah, no, I d I don't really mind about using the word Trinity. Obviously the Bible doesn't, and the Bible gets along just fine without it, and I think evangelists can get on just fine without that word, but the concept of Trinity is there from the very beginning, and it's on every page of the Bible, and we neglect it at our peril. So I mean you you go back to sort of Genesis chapter one, and and what what do you have in the first three verses of the Bible? In the beginning, God creates the heavens and the earth, and then the Spirit of the Lord is hovering over the waters, and then the word of the Lord is revealed, bringing order out of chaos. And then, of course, you get to the end of Genesis chapter one, and and you know, the pinnacle of creation, humanity, how does God come to humanity? He says, you know, let us make humanity in our own image. And so you've got this plural God making a plural people. And and you know, right through from the Old Testament onwards, um, the Trinity is just a a truth about who our God is. You come into the New Testament, and obviously all all three of the synoptic gospels, that's Matthew, Mark, and Luke, um, they all begin with sort of the baptism of Jesus, that's his launch onto the world stage. And again, that's a very Trinitarian introduction of Jesus into the world. You go to John's Gospel, in the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God, obviously Trinity front and center. You go to Acts, and you see how Jesus is called, you know, the Christ, the Son of God. Um, that means he's the one full of the Spirit, and he's the Son of the Father, and you just you have to articulate who Jesus is in in Trinitarian terms. There's no way around it.
SPEAKER_01So, I mean, haven't you got to do quite a lot of complicated explaining first? Hmm. If you want to start at that point.
SPEAKER_02I often find that actually it's the Christians who find Trinity more complicated than non-Christians. And I think the reason for that is that non-Christians don't have a whole heap of baggage that they bring to the table when you when you tell them God is three persons united in love. Non-Christians go, well, I'd never thought of it that way, but okay, fine, you know, for for for the sake of argument, I'm with you. You know, they they kind of they they get where you're beginning when you when you begin that way. Christians, on the other hand, they they have a whole heap of baggage that they bring to the table, and and I I just think within the church we haven't been so used to thinking of three and so that's that's where the confusion lies. So what really needs to happen is that Christians need to get clear on Trinity, because what I find is that the the people who object to three are Christians. The people who love three are are you know Christians who are open to these things and and non-Christians for whom you know all this stuff is new, all this stuff is weird.
SPEAKER_01Well, what happens then if you don't talk about Trinity in evangelism? What what sort of goes wrong?
SPEAKER_02Well, I th I think this is kind of why we had things like uh the Nicene Creed and and these sort of early punch-ups in the church, because people were were starting to do their evangelism without a robust doctrine of the Trinity. And so people like Arius, um, sort of the arch heretic, um, they were sort of beginning their presentations of the gospel with, well, God is the uncreated creator. And then they, you know, talk about creation, they talk about sin, and they talk about Israel, and they talk about these sorts of things. And and then Jesus, you know, comes into the story later on. And actually the reason why we've got a Nicene Creed, the reason why we've got a word called Trinity, is because of those battles back in the in the sort of third and fourth century, very uh very fiercely those those battles, for saying uh you must begin um explaining God with Jesus, because you can't insert Jesus later on. And Athanasius um said to to Arius, this is in sort of the fourth century punch-ups uh over the Trinity, um, he said, Any system of thought that doesn't begin with Jesus cannot force Jesus in later. So when you begin your evangelism without Jesus and you just talk about God, then halfway through your evangelistic presentation, you're gonna have to insert Jesus later on, and instantly the non-Christian's gonna say, Well, who's that guy? And what relationship does he have to all this sort of stuff? And all of a sudden, you won't be able to understand Jesus properly. He he will either just be, you will either say at that point, okay, Jesus, he's just God in the flesh. And and for an instant the non-Christian goes, Okay, but then the non-Christian reads in the Gospels, and Jesus prayed to God. And they go, hang on, wait a minute. This is God praying to God, like how does that work? And it doesn't really work, and it and uh God punished Jesus on the cross. And then, you know, instantly the non-Christians, well, hang on, come on, God punishes God on the cross, is he schizophrenic, what's going on? Is he self-harming? Punishing himself. What's going on? So you either you either go that way and you just say God came in the flesh and that's who Jesus is, or you say this other being called Jesus comes into the world who's lesser than God. And then all of a sudden you're you are what's called a Unitarian and your gospel goes off in a completely different direction. And suddenly Jesus is lesser than God. But if he's lesser than God, then you know, if we trust in Jesus and become one with Jesus, as 321 kind of, you know, heads towards, then he's bringing you into something that is less than true, you know, participation in God's life. He's just bringing you into his own relationship with the Creator and He's not bringing you into adoption into the life of God. So you d you get Jesus wrong. If you don't start with Jesus, and that's what Trinity is all about. Trinity is actually all about just starting with Jesus. If you don't start with Jesus, you can't crow by him in later. And if you don't start with Trinity, you won't understand the cross either. Because on on the cross, uh again the non-Christian hears us saying God is unhappy with humanity, so he punishes this third party called Jesus over there, and now he can be happy with you. And the non-Christian thinks that sounds a bit nasty, actually. That sounds that sounds like scapegoating in the worst sense of the word. Um that sounds like just bullying, you know. God kind of zaps Jesus instead of me. Well, who's this poor Jesus, you know, fellow over here? He's kind of this third party. But actually when you understand Trinity, you understand that the Son of the Father has always, you know, shared in God's will and God's life and and his purposes, and it's the Son voluntarily offering to to God, you know, what's due for our sins.
SPEAKER_01So he's taking on the punishment himself. It's God's own self-substitution. Not just using someone else to pay for our sins.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. I mean, John Stutt um he wrote, you know, one of the classics on the cross called the cross of Christ. And uh in his uh he's got a chapter on the the self-substitution of God. And he said, if you're gonna understand the cross, you cannot make Christ into a third party who is thrust between God and us. Um that that just becomes a caricature, and we and we hear it in evangelism all the time. There's you know, there's illustrations of the father is driving a bus and you know everyone on the bus is about to go over the clifftop unless he, you know, turns the wheel. But if he turns the wheel, he's gonna wipe out his poor son, who's, you know, playing in a sandpit just happily minding his own business. And the love of God is that he swerves in, runs over his son in order to save the rest of the bus. And I mean, if you have a venture such a uh an illustration, instantly the non-Christian is thinking, actually, I'm not sure I like that God. Everyone's sort of thinking, Well, I don't think I'd do that to my son playing in a sandpit and then, you know, running over him. But the the root of that problem is that you you're thinking of Jesus as this sort of innocent third party rather than the Son of the Father who voluntarily, you know, substitutes himself for us. So without Trinity, you don't just misunderstand Jesus, you misunderstand the cross. Um and I th I think sort of thirdly, if if you just begin with God in the beginning, then all of a sudden, um God is a taker. And all of a sudden it looks like um you know, in in so many gospel presentations, God makes the world, and then the very next line in the gospel presentation says, Therefore we owe God. And I think it starts in that way because we've got this individual God, um, who doesn't have a lively relationship in himself, but almost you know, creates in order to fulfill that need for relationship. And then everything gets spun in terms of what we owe to God. I think when you start with Trinity, when you start with three, you have this lively family relationship, this love that's going on, and God says this is too good to keep to you know to ourselves, let's let's spread, let's share, and then creation comes as the overflow of that love. And then all of a sudden, once you get creation, the implication of creation is God's giver. You know, he he loves to be gracious, he loves to share. When you start with a one person God, creation means God wants to take from you. We owe him. When you begin with three, God creates means, oh my goodness, what a sharing, generous God this is. And it sets your whole gospel presentation off in a in a in a very different direction. If you start with a single power who is over you, your gospel will take a certain direction. If you start with a loving family who invites you in, you start you start your gospel in a very different place.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So uh does that mean then that we have to sort of dive deep into to theology and and doctrine, bring out the Nicene Creed and everything uh in into our encounters.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Hopefully not. Although you know, although, like, I think it's important to see things like the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed, these were put together by evangelists. Let's be clear on that. Um, these were put together by people who wanted to see the spread of the gospel and just wanted to make clear who it is we're talking about in evangelism. In the early church, Trinity was front and centre in your evangelism. You know, what do what did St. Patrick do when he went to Ireland? You know, apart from you know getting rid of all the snakes and like what did he do? He he taught them the Trinity. You know, he used a rubbish analogy with the with the three leaves of the of a clover. It's a terrible Trinitarian analogy. But that's just that's an interesting insight into evangelism in another age. That as people went out and spread the gospel to lands that hadn't heard of this Christian God before, what they spent their time doing was talking about who that God is. And I think that's just a word for us today. So often we go out into sort of frontier situations and we try and re-evangelize a nation that has very little understanding of who the Christian God is. And we almost try to assume who that God is. Yeah, everyone who knows who God is, you know. Let's just let's just dive in and talk about sin now. I think we're gonna have to go back to what the early church had to do. Because I mean we're we're having to re-evangelize Europe today, and we might have to be a lot more like St. Patrick, j just with some better analogies. Perhaps get rid of the analogies. But um so so let's not sort of poo-poo the old creeds and that kind of thing, because what they're trying to do, they're trying to be good evangelists. And what they realise, which is what we need to realise, is that actually we are bringing who God is to the world. We're not we're not telling a world who already knows who God is how to get saved by this god. Um we're gonna have to come and and and tell them about a god they'd never guessed, uh a god they'd never imagined before. So but that doesn't mean you have to come and and use, you know, the Nicene Creed and Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So how would you sort of approach it then? How would you like on first contact or whatever what would you say?
SPEAKER_02Well, I th I think I kind of try and do what the Gospels do. So, you know, the Gospels introduce Jesus at the baptism and they they show this Jesus coming up out of the water, the Spirit descends on him, the Father says, You're my son who I love, with you I'm well pleased. If I'm ever speaking to anybody uh uh about what happens in the gospels, I usually start with that kind of understanding and say, Okay, here's Jesus, he is the son of the Father, he belongs to the family that you and I were made for. This is where we belong, this is home. To be filled by this spirit, to be loved by this father, that's home. And Jesus comes into our situation so he can invite invite us into his situation. You know, he becomes our brothers so that we can become children of that same God. And and so when I'm talking about Jesus, I'll I'll I'll just talk about, yeah, he's he's the Son who wants to link arms with us and bring us into his family. And and again, so I haven't used the word Trinity there, I haven't used, you know, the word pericures or you know circumencissio or or like all these all these other you know terms from the early church. But I have tried to introduce Jesus as the Christ that's full of the Spirit, the Son of God, and I've tried to uh introduce the Christian life as belonging to this family, being filled by this same spirit, having the same father, having Jesus' brothers and sisters as my brothers and sisters. So don't get hung up over being Trinitarian. Um I don't really mind if you use the words sometimes but but you can use the word, and I I I find it's it's very easy to explain the word. You just say you smoosh together two other words, try and unity. That's all that's all Trinity is. You know, you can explain the word. If you use the word, do explain it. But it's easy to explain. It's the unity of the three. Boom, there it is, you know. Um so it's n it's not that difficult. We don't need to be afraid of it. Um but the main the main issue is it's not so much about being Trinitarian, it's about confessing Christ faithfully. And the only way you really can confess Christ faithfully is to call him what the Bible always calls him, which is the Christ, the Son of God, full of the Spirit, Son of the Father. And then you avoid the confusion. Trinity is not a way of adding confusion. Trinity is uh it was always, historically and it is today, the way of clarifying confusion. If you just say God came to earth and then died on the cross to satisfy God's justice, that adds to the confusion. If you just say, Yes, there's this problem between God and man, and this other guy called Jesus comes and sorts it out, that just adds to the confusion. If you say there's a family of love and the Son comes into our terrible situation in order to bring us into his wonderful situation, that's the way that the gospel has always been articulated down through history, and I think we need to get back to it.
SPEAKER_01Okay, Glenn, well, there it is uh in a nutshell. Uh if you have any comments about this, or if you'd like to share it, you can just go to revivalmedia.org slash TEP27 and you can post at the bottom of the episode page there. So thanks for listening to the Evangelist Podcast. Just before we finish, I want to tell you about our free daily prayer bulletin. It's a small twenty-four page booklet that tells thirty-one stories of what God is doing around the world. Did you know that the Church in Egypt is uniting in prayer despite the recent unrest? Or that the Weyu tribe in Colombia are enrolled in Bible training? Well, you can hear more about it in our prayer bulletin. You can get it free of charge by going to revivalmedia.org slash bulletin. So again, the web address for this episode where you can comment on this specific show along with any relevant links is simply revivalmedia.org slash tep27.