Today on the Evangelist Podcast, we're continuing our series looking at things that stop us from sharing the good news.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you. With Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_01Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. This is the show where we encourage you in your witness to your friends, your family, and even complete strangers. I'm Andy Brinkley, and with me is Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_02Hello everyone.
SPEAKER_01How are you, Glenn?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, very good. I'm a bit tired. Been uh been filming some uh some poems for some videos to do. So Okay. Yeah, stay tuned for those. They'll be they'll be at well, one of them at least will be at uh end of the month.
SPEAKER_01Because you've you've done a couple of poems before, haven't you? Um The King's English poem. That was quite popular. We had about 40,000 views for that so far.
SPEAKER_02Yep. So that's lots of phrases from the King James Bible. And then I did the anti-Santy ranty. It was a Christmas thing. That was quite funny.
SPEAKER_01You uh abused Santa Claus. I did.
SPEAKER_02He's had it coming for so long. Finally someone stuck it to Santa. So yeah. And uh yes, this one actually my my wife thought of a great um because this one's about Halloween, and so um uh coming after the anti-santy ranty. Um we were trying to think what the title for the the Halloween poem should be, and my wife, quick as a flash, she said it should be the anti-lanti ranty. She's she's the real writer. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Headline grabber. Yeah. Good. Okay, well, this time on the Evangelist Podcast, we're looking at things that stop us, and we're thinking particularly of problems of the heart. This time we've we've thought probably a good title is Dirty Hands. Uh because sometimes it's difficult um in getting our hands dirty, as it were, in uh reaching out to the lost. Yeah. Um sometimes we're we're quite comfortable in our churches and the community that we know and uh doing the things. So actually to go outside that is quite sort of uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_02Yes, exactly. And and so often we think sort of when you when you imagine the picture of holiness, you know, what do you think of? Um when you think of godliness, what do you think of? Do you do you instantly think of moving out into the world, being the friend of sinners? Um do you think of touching lepers? Do you think of all you know um and actually if Jesus is our definition of holiness, if he really is the holy one of Israel, if he really is the one who in uh Isaiah chapter six, you know, the the cherubim cry out, holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, the whole earth is full of his glory. If he really is the holy one, then what does holiness look like? Well, actually, even in Isaiah six, what you get is uh the the cherubim take the flaming coal to to touch Isaiah's unclean lips and to cleanse him, and then what does the Lord do? Sends him out, you know, and sends him out to the world. And what what you see throughout Isaiah, the the the Lord who is the holy one of Israel, uh he says, you know, all day long I've held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people. It's in Isaiah 65. It's one of my favourite verses, actually. You know, what does the Lord's holiness look like? Um it actually looks like an arms-wide offer to the world. So no wonder Jesus died on the cross the way that he did, with his arms outstretched to the world, praying, Father, forgive. Um if we start to get in our heads, this is what holiness looks like, I think that will help us in our outreach. But so often we think of the the Lord as kind of he keeps himself to himself, he's up in heaven all by himself, and he wants us to go out into the world and to do all the running and to grab sinners, you know, and yank them out of the world and up to up to heaven. And in but in that kind of model, Jesus is the static stationary one, and we are the outgoing ones. And if we if we if we buy into that model, I th I think we start we start to really worry. Well, should I spend any time away from the prayer meeting? Should I spend any time away from my Christian friends? Maybe every now and again I can hold my nose and kind of run out into a horrible world and and maybe grab one or two sinners. But is it really a godly thing to do to reach out? I think I think we've got a lot of work to do, because I think I think even if we wouldn't articulate it, I think quite often we we do think that we're we're getting our hands dirty when we sully ourselves in the world.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean we have to think spirit spirituality, you know, what what are we more spiritual doing? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And uh we you know, we can easily think that uh singing the latest songs or you know being in the all-night prayer meeting and uh committing ourselves totally that not that those are are bad things, but uh you know, that that's perhaps more spiritual than going down the pub and chatting with somebody about the Lord or Yeah, we had a prayer meeting at our church last night and and um and it didn't happen, but you know, if if if my neighbour has had a rough day, he's not a not a believer, and you know, I know that in half an hour I've got the prayer meeting, would it be a godly thing to say, oh well, I won't go to the prayer meeting, I'll I'll go down to the pub with my neighbour and spend some time with him? Like would that be a godly thing to do? Um and yeah, there are all sorts of scenarios like that that would be entirely godly um to do, but we don't generally think like that. And I think one of the one of the ways we know that people aren't thinking in these terms is that as an evangelist, I go either to sort of Christian unions and universities, or go I go to churches and we put on special evangelistic events. And what is probably the number one barrier to evangelism is that the Christians don't have non-Christian friends. The number one barrier is always um, you know, a have there been invitations that have gone out and and and the fact that so many Christians don't have genuine friendships with non-Christians um is is perhaps the greatest barrier to evangelism today. And I wonder whether lying behind that is a false view of holiness, a false view of godliness. Um and a false view of spirituality, you know, you you use that word. I I think so often we think of spirituality in terms of the arrow up. The arrow up is is everything that we do for God, and and it's you know, we pray and we are obedient and we go to church and we praise and all that kind of stuff. Um but when we see Jesus given to the world, we see that the arrow comes down. And so, you know, one of the the key verses on mission uh that I keep on going back to is always uh John chapter twenty verses uh twenty and twenty-one. And it's really it's the Great Commission from John's gospel. And uh uh Jesus appears to his disciples, he says, uh Peace be with you. And then John 20, verse 20. After he said this, he showed them his hands and his sides. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. Again Jesus said, Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, I am sending you. And with that he breathed on them and said, Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven. So there's a real outgoing movement, you know, from the Father to the Son. The Son's is given to the world. He breathes on the disciples the Holy Spirit, and with the Spirit out they go, with that outgoing mission. And it's an outgoing mission of of forgiveness, you know, they are to preach the gospel, and and anyone who, you know, trusts in Christ uh finds forgiveness in that gospel that's preached. Ever anyone who rejects Christ uh is is rejected. But there is that outgoing mission, and again the arrow is coming down and out. And if we really get into our heads that that is the mission of godliness, that that that is the direction of spirituality according according to the Bible, I think then we start to have a a different view of it. Not so much get we're getting our hands dirty, but we're joining Jesus on his outgoing mission to the world.
SPEAKER_01I guess you kind of you're getting a different mindset. It's more of a heart thing, isn't it? It's kind of a change of mind, change of heart.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um it's a deep it's a deep-seated, you know, kind of thing, and I and I think And what once that's in place, yeah, then you know the these other things will slot in. You'll you'll you'll be able to know whether at that moment it's better to um spend time with your your neighbour, as you say, or whatever. Because you've got that heart, you've got that sort of desire um to share the gospel in the way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So like what is what does keeping in step with the spirit mean? And and one one thing to get clear is, you know, where is the spirit heading? And and maybe the spirit isn't always heading to the prayer meeting. Maybe the spirit is, you know, as Jesus sends the disciples and breathes the Holy Spirit on them, the Spirit is sending them out. What does keeping in step with the Spirit mean? Might not always mean walking to church, it might mean walking out of church.
SPEAKER_01I can I can some I can feel some uh perhaps there's some church leaders here have been trying to get people to go to the prayer meeting. And they're kind of thinking, No, don't say that. Don't say that. But uh it's getting the right sort of, as you say, the the right meaning behind it, isn't it? The right heart behind it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Um so absolutely I'm 100% for prayer meetings, and and I did go to the prayer meeting last night, just just so everyone is clear. Um and I left my non-Christian friend in the gutter. No, I didn't I didn't do that. Um but yeah, just just realizing just that really basic issue of what is the direction of godly travel. And um I'm I I'm always helped by um Hebrews 13. This incredible verse, you know, coming at the very end of uh the letter, and uh Hebrews 13, verse 12, it says, So Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. So that's first of all, it's picking up on okay, so the movement of Jesus was actually to go outside the city gate, outside the place where God is known, outside the clean place, into the unclean place, into the dangerous place, into the place where God is not known. That's where Jesus went in order to cleanse us through his cross. But then verse 13, the next verse says, Let us then go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace that he bore. Which is an amazing call. It's it sort of says, Let's be with Jesus. Oh great. Okay, where is Jesus? Outside the camp, outside the city wall, outside where God is known, in the unclean place, in the dangerous place. And that's actually where where we meet Jesus. So I'm not So I I don't think it's a trade-off between it would be nice to be holy, but I guess we've got to get our hands dirty in mission. It's not a trade-off, according to Hebrews and accord according to the Bible. It's where do we meet with Jesus? Actually, he is already there. If if you can think in your neighborhood, around your church, around where you work, around where you live, where is the unclean place? Where is the dangerous place? Where is the place where God is not known yet? Um actually Hebrews says that's where Jesus is. Because when he died on the cross, that wasn't just a it was a one-off in in lots of ways, and Hebrews tells us it was a one-off in lots of ways. But in in another sense, it was showing us the nature of the Lord Jesus, who is always going out to the unclean place with his arms outstretched, trying to cleanse places that are already unclean.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I understand what you're saying, but I guess there is a danger, isn't there, that we could be so out of church that we're always you know, in uh that place talking to us. We don't get that kind of encouragement or or community or teaching from what you would get in a church service or a church family. Yeah. So you could take it too far, couldn't you?
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, absolutely. And and what I'm saying is not to be a lone ranger, to leave you know your brothers and sisters behind and you boldly go out into the into the unclean place. That's a recipe for disaster. Um it's important in this verse, it says, let us go to him. Um Together. Uh church is on mission together to reach the church.
SPEAKER_01So you're sort of taking taking the whole church with you.
SPEAKER_02Taking brothers and sisters with you, absolutely. I th and I think that's another thing we need to sort of get clear in our thinking that sort of mission is not the Lone Ranger going out on his solo clapping.
SPEAKER_01Well done.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and then you come back on a Sunday and you kind of refuel and okay, I'm off out again by myself. Um that yeah, yeah, that it actually Jesus sends his church together. Hebrews 13 says, Let us go out. So it's about the mentality of the church as a whole, that that actually our mission is an outgoing mission. And I and I wouldn't, you know, suggest that you engage people all by yourself. Um so so quite often in evangelism training I'll I'll sort of say, Can you get together? Are there a few of you who have always been meaning to join the gym? You know? Um not just not just one of you who goes and you you know you pay the first month and you use it once and that's it. You know, because that's another thing that would actually, you know, galvanize you to keep going to the gym. But, you know, I mean one person in the gym, that becomes a difficult place for you to make a witness, and it becomes impossible for you to model what Christian community looks like in that gym because it's just you. But if three or four of you go to the gym, actually people start to see John thirteen in play, John thirteen thirty-five, by this all people will know that you're my disciples if you have love for one another. So suddenly if you're going together into the unclean place, if we want to call it that. Um I don't really like gyms, so I'll call it that. Um if you want to go together. Or if you you you want to join uh a charity together. You wanna you wanna um get involved in local politics together. You want to join a book club together. Not just a Christian book club, but you know, three or four of you might be Christians and others might not be. So I'm not saying be a lone ranger out there in the big bad world. This is more a call for church together to be doing this. Uh and I I guess the other danger that there might be in in this outgoing mission is feeling like you've just got to be like the world. That this is a call to to kind of identify completely with the world and its values. And I'm not saying that at all.
SPEAKER_01Glenn, John seventeen says that uh you know, we're to be in the world but not of the world. Yeah. How how does that tally with this? What what what does that look like in this context?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's that's exactly right. Um as Jesus in this outgoing mission, and in John 17, again, there's there's this outgoing thing that the church has sent into the world. But again, Jesus doesn't say be like the world, because you're not of the world, you've been born from above. You've been born of God. And so being distinctive and different in this mission is absolutely vital. You know, I was preaching on uh Philippians 2 on Sunday, and there's that lovely uh line that says um uh you shine like stars in the in in the in the night sky as you hold out the word of life. And and p part of shining like a star in the world is being very different from the world. Um and stars are really very different from the you know inky blackness around them. And at at points, our difference from the world it will feel like we're sticking out like a sore thumb. Um but thankfully Paul doesn't say we stick out like a sore thumb, he says we stick out like stars that shine, which is a much more attractive kind of vision. But it will it will feel awkward and it will feel odd within Philippians 2, uh in verse 14 and 15, it says the way in which we shine is that we will never complain or argue. And I think that's a that's a really down-to-earth example of the way in which we are to be very different as we move out into the world. So you know, so in the workplace, we don't complain or argue. Do you know how countercultural that is? And you know, when you just think of how many conversations are just complaining, yeah. And then you argue about the complaint, and you know and yet, you know, if we're gonna shine, we're gonna have to be different. Or the way Jesus put it, you know, if we're gonna if we're gonna be salty in the world, then we're gonna have a savour to us, a bite to us, a difference to us. Um So th the call to be in the world is not the call to be of the world and like the world, it's the call to have have something from Jesus. You know, we've been given the Holy Spirit, this new life in him, and we have a gift for the world. So the impetus is not the world sucking us towards itself. The impetus is Jesus sort of pushing us and and his flow of the spirit pushing us into the world. And I think that's very it's very different thinking we're not being sucked into the world and into its into its mould, but we are being pushed out by Jesus into the into the world to be different. And and there are all sorts of you know uh questions that that arise in different contexts, and perhaps sort of one Corinthians uh chapters eight, nine, and ten, uh an interesting worked example where Paul is uh in various missionary contexts and and and he and he does adapt, you know.
SPEAKER_01And uh Joseph and Potiphar's wife, he's and then uh Daniel, you know, he's got this very high-up position, but he he knows you know w what is compromise and and what is you know service.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And in all those cases, actually the the spirit is mentioned there, so so sort of Joseph, this spirit-filled man who uh yeah, who very much, if you like, plays along with the with the system of you know Potiphar and the and then the system within Egypt and is able to to be in that, but also makes some very distinctive stands. And uh and Daniel and his friends, again, you know, the spirit-filledness of Daniel um is is often highlighted in Daniel and and and he's able to make the you know, he makes the stand on the diet that they eat. Um but at the same time he goes to the schools and he and he learns all the wisdom of Persia and the East and and Babylon and um so uh yeah, it takes that discernment of the spirit to to know how to be in the world but not of the world. And I think what Paul does brilliantly in in 1 Corinthians 8 to 10 is is show us how you know to the Jews I became like a Jew to the win to win the Jews, to the Gentiles I became like a Gentile to win Gentiles. And he crowns that whole discussion by saying, I do all things to the glory of God. Which gives us a really beautiful picture of what the glory of God looks like. What does the glory of God look like? Does the glory of God look like this pristine, self-centered thing up in heaven? No, it doesn't, because because what Paul is doing is being outgoing and and trying in every single way to bring salvation to the ends of the earth. In that way, God is glorified. And again, I think that ties in with you know, w in which direction is the arrow going.
SPEAKER_01Okay, Glenn. Well, could you just sort of summarise basically what we're saying here about w what we've uh sort of entitled dirty hands. Yeah. Um getting involved in the in the world.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think yeah, so it it begins with seeing God as the original outgoing one. That He is sending us out. He is the sending God, the Father sending the Son, the Son sending us by the Spirit, and us being sent out into the world. I think it begins with that mindset and and and it continues with us seeing a corporate mission together. We're not Lone Rangers heading out into the world, but we have been sent together on mission into the world. And do we have relationships with non-Christians? Are are we moving out into the world? Do we know unbelievers? Do we have those kinds of relationships where at points we can share Jesus and invite them to church and that kind of thing? If not, have we fallen for this dirty hands kind of thinking? And can we perhaps, you know, get alongside other Christians and say, right, you know, let's start that book club, let's join that gym, let's join that sports club, let's join the local politics group, whatever. And let's on mission together, you know, reach out with the love of Christ. Um there's you know, there's a couple of guys down my street, John and Meredith, who I pray for every day. And and you know, what is what does mission look like with with those guys? They're um seventeen and eighteen now, but I've lived on the same street as them for the last four years. You know, they come knocking on the door and s and say, Are you allowed to come out and kick the football? And I always think for a second say, Yes, yes I am, actually, allowed. I give myself permission. And, you know, what does mission look like? It's looked like kicking a ball around the round the street for for a long time, um and inviting them to various things and and at at times, you know, sharing the gospel and at times sitting down with the Bible open with them. Um but do we have those relationships? And if not, can we start praying for those relationships? Um because it's a not it's not a big, bad, dirty world out there and we've got to s you know huddle together. It's a mission field. Jesus is outside the city wall, he's there in the unclean place with his arms outstretched, and he says, Come join me.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well that's uh a good summary there. And we'll go on next time to talk a little bit more about uh interactions with the world. That's right. If you have any comments about today's show or would like to share it, just go to revivalmedia.org slash TEP23 and that will take you directly to the page for this episode. If you like listening each week, we'd really appreciate a rating and review on iTunes. It helps us get seen by more people. It's very easy just to go to revivalmedia.org slash iTunes. Also, we are now on Stitcher Radio. If you listen on Stitcher Radio, you can find us on there. Just do a search for the Evangelist Podcast, and uh we should pop up there. So again, the web address for this episode where you can comment on this specific show along with any relevant links is simply revivalmedia.org slash tep23.