On this episode of the Evangelists Podcast, we're in our final episode of four on Atheism. The Evangelists Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you with Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_03Welcome back. This is the fourth show on Atheism Glenn. We've taken a look at the uh an introduction to atheism, then we looked at uh things that atheists get right. Yep. Then we looked at some things that they miss or get wrong. And uh this is the last one. This is sort of hot topics.
SPEAKER_02Tying up some loose ends.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So we again uh we're gonna jump straight in. And we've got a quote here from Douglas Adams, famous writer. He says, Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? And that's at the uh beginning of the God Delusion book.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's right. So Richard Dawkins kicks off the God Delusion with that quote from uh Douglas Adams, and uh and I think it it shows sort of a a certain mindset when it comes to faith and religion and that kind of thing, where people think, okay, Christians and other believers like Christians, we just believe in fairies. We just believe that there are pockets in the world of weird stuff, and we we get really interested in that weird stuff, these you know, fairies and pixies and hobgoblins and that kind of thing. Um and and what we can't realize is that actually, you know, the the world is magnificent enough without having to, you know, believe in all these sort of fairies at the bottom of the garden. Of course, what many people have pointed out to Richard Dawkins is that um uh the Christian claim is not that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden, it's that there's a gardener. And while that's a quite enjoyable point to make to an atheist, I I think it shows where we miss each other in this in this conversation. Because sometimes Christians do come across as though we we kind of are children of the Enlightenment and we believe in a double decker universe. And uh you know, on on the on the ground floor of the universe, just normal things happen, they grind along according to iron laws of physics and that kind of thing. But we believe there's an upstairs, and in the upstairs bit all these weird things happen. And so we we kind of we grant to the atheist, yeah, sure, you know, run f run free on the ground floor, but you're missing out because there's an upstairs bit as well.
SPEAKER_03Um and a downstairs.
SPEAKER_02That's it. You've got the triple decker universe. Yeah. Um whereas I I think the Christian claim is is far more, yeah, that there's a there's a gardener to the garden that who has shot through the whole physical world, the whole natural world, everything about the world is shot through with the glory of Jesus. Um the earth is filled with the glory of the Lord, uh, says Isaiah 6. Um so yeah, we we don't really we don't really think of there are the there are pockets of supernatural events and then other natural events. That whole division between supernatural and natural is such a product of the inv of the enlightenment anyway. We believe not just in uh sort of a a God up there, but we believe in in the triune God who who by his spirit is is present everywhere and and through the glory of the Lord Jesus makes his presence and personality felt in all things. It's it's not that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden.
SPEAKER_03So then uh here's a question that uh my daughter's been asked by her friends and perhaps by her friends' parents. Um Who made God?
SPEAKER_02Who made God? She's seven, is she? Eight. She's eight, yeah, yeah. Yeah, kids ask the best questions, don't they? And you um you can't bluff a kid if you don't if you don't know the answer, they'll see straight through you. Who made God? I guess one one way forwards in in this discussion is just to say, look, everyone believes that something is ultimate. Okay? We all believe that if you wind back the clock as far back as you can wind back clocks, something is there. Or or you might believe that nothing is there, right? You might believe that nothing is there in the beginning. Uh in which case it's not just a a question of who made God, it's a question of who made the universe and how did that happen. And again, as we said last week, the miracle of getting everything out of nothing is so much greater than the miracle of the virgin birth. It's the virgin birth of the cosmos. It's ridiculous. But so you've so you've either you've got something that's infinitely old, you've got something that goes back to ultimate reality. Is it the physical universe or is it God's? And and I guess the the Christian is just saying, we've got good news for the world. We're we're saying that what is ultimately true and and old and ancient and and and throbbing away um behind and beneath all things is a God of love. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together, um, they are the ones who have always been there. And then, you know, the atheist says, Yeah, yeah, but who made that god? And you say, Well, no, come on, we've all got this issue. We've all got this issue. Something is infinitely old. Even if you say it's nothing, and then you you just create bigger problems for yourself. Something is infinitely old. We've got the good news of saying that something is a community of love and you're invited. That's the good news. Now, Richard Dawkins um says uh he he's got kind of a take on the who made God question in the God Delusion, where where he says, um, uh if you if you posit God, that's not an explanation, because if God is posited as the explanation for the universe, then he is more complex than what you're trying to to explain. You're trying to explain the universe. You've posited God as an explanation for the universe, but God is more complicated than universe, so he's no kind of explanation at all, is he? Which is uh a quite silly argument, really. Uh I I love Terry Terry Eagleton gave a a review of the God Delusion um in the uh the London Review of Books, I think is it is. Um you can edit that out if it's not. Um Terry Eagleton said um uh his opening line in this review of the God Delusion. He said, Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology. Um Dawkins is basically, you know, he's a scientist and he's into physical processes causing other physical processes, and he wants to discover, you know, more ultimate physical processes that explain the the the less ultimate physical processes, and and and he's sort of saying, well, God would be a very, very complicated physical process, so um that's no kind of explanation. But uh of course he's thinking about God as uh kind of like a process within the natural world. And if that's true, then yeah, I I suppose he is more complicated than what we're trying to explain him uh about him. But but if God is a personal agent who is beyond the universe, then Richard Dawkins' claim makes no sense at all. If you point to the you know a combustion engine and say, gosh, that's that's a very, you know, complicated thing, what explains that? And I point to the inventor of the combustion engine, you say, That's no explanation. He's much more complicated than the combustion engine. You think, what's going on there? If if you've got a personal agent who is responsible for these things, then of course, in in one sense they're gonna be more complex. But of course, throughout the history of of theology, actually God's simplicity has been a very common theme in all theology. And what what theologians have always meant by God's simplicity rather than complexity is that He's not made up of parts. There aren't a whole heap of moving parts that go to make up you know the living gods. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are bound together eternally in love and united as one eternally in love. They're not sort of made up of parts uh that need explaining. So on on the whole who made God thing, I I think the the first thing to do is just to say to people listen, everyone thinks something is infinitely old and ancient and ultimate. The good news is we're saying that that is a community of love, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that's the best that's the best ultimate reality that the world has ever known.
SPEAKER_03Okay then, uh miracles break laws of nature, they can't possibly happen.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It's it's got a long history to it. Maybe David Hume is most most famous for for saying how you know miracles are by their very nature impossible. Um they're vi they're by their very nature impossible if you are committed to a non-miraculous account of the world. But that doesn't tell you very much. You you've you've already excluded miracles from your definition from the outset. It's very important to ask the question, which laws are you talking about when you're talking about breaking the laws of nature? I think John Lennox, we've got a quote from um uh a clip from him where he uh he very helpfully differentiates what kind of laws we're talking about when we're talking about miracles.
SPEAKER_00Now the second objection is that now that we know the laws of nature, miracles are impossible. But that involves a further fallacy. Suppose I put $1,000 tonight in my hotel room in Cambridge, and I put $1,000 in tomorrow night. One plus one equals two, that's two thousand dollars. And on the third day I open the drawer and I find five hundred dollars. Now what do I say? Do I say the laws of arithmetic have been broken or the laws of the United States have been broken? Well, you obviously got the point, but see how important it is. First of all, it's telling you that lull means a different thing in both cases, in each case. Secondly, how do you know the laws of the United States have been broken? It's because you know the law of arithmetic. If you didn't know that, you wouldn't know the other. Now, you see, it's not the laws of arithmetic have been broken, but what they tell you is that somebody has put their hand into the drawer. That is, something has come in from outside the system because it wasn't a closed system. This is crucial. You see, I believe in the laws of nature. Indeed, God, who's responsible for them, created an orderly universe. Otherwise, as I said before, we'd never recognize an exception. But God is not a prisoner of the laws, they're not like the laws of the United States. God, who set the regularities there, can himself cause an event. Of course he can. What's to stop him doing that? You see, what Christians are claiming about the resurrection of Jesus is not that he rose by some natural processes. No, they say that he rose because God injected enormous power and energy from outside the system. Now, unless you have evidence that the system is totally causally closed, you cannot argue against the possibility of miracles.
SPEAKER_02So it's a great analogy, isn't it? If the money is missing from the top drawer, then it's not because the laws of arithmetic have been broken, it's because the laws of of the country have been broken. Um in what sense do miracles happen in the world, um not s not that, you know, uh fundamental laws of of reality have been broken, but that there has been an intervention. Someone who is able to has stepped in and done something with his world. And and if God exists, then to say that he can't step in in that way is absolutely ridiculous. The the the whole miracles can't happen thing assumes what it sets out to prove. It assumes a non-miraculous account of the world in which that stuff doesn't happen. But if you if if you believe that there is a personal God who is hands-on and and can interact with his world, then of course miracles aren't an impossibility at all. And at that stage you you just then need to ask the question, well, have miracles happened? Um not could they happen or could they not happen. You're you're involved in worldviews when you're talking about that, that can't really be tested, you know, at that moment. What you should really ask the question is is has a miracle actually occurred? And at that point I'd ask people to have a look at the resurrection. You know, see, do do you think someone walked back from from the grave? Have a look at this with an open mind, thinking that, okay, within the Bible it it seems like this is a fulfillment of a whole story that's being told about a God who interacts with the world, who enters into our death and transforms it and moves things beyond. Within that story, doesn't that miracle make sense? Do you think it happened? If it did, then that uh validates the the whole story being told. But don't don't just ask could miracles ever happen. Ask the ask the specific question has this miracle actually happened?
SPEAKER_03Okay, well, the next one, um, science doesn't it rule out God because all the mysteries have been explained.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that's sort of around the idea of the God of the Gaps. We've all probably heard of the God of the Gaps now, that uh because science is, you know, progressing on and uh vanquishing all ignorance in its onward march towards progress and daylight, and you know. And in the in the darkness has been superstition and religion who have thought, Oh, we don't know what things are, we're we're gonna call that thing God. And evermore, as science has progressed, there's been ever less space for God to exist in. Uh it's this God of the gaps who is ever shrinking. Now, whatever God science rules out in that sense, is is not my God and not worth following in in any way, shape, or form. A god a God of the gaps is uh a ridiculous God, and certainly not the God of the Bible. Certainly not the God of Jesus. We believe in a God of the whole show, not a God of the gaps, a god of the whole show, a god beyond the whole show. And and when you when you think about understanding more about the universe, what you're understanding is more of the mechanism by which this world operates. But if I understand a mechanism, that doesn't make me that that doesn't reduce my wonder at the maker. You know, if I see the combustion engine and it's working and it's ticking along and it's going brilliantly, and I understand how the bits of the engine work together, does that does that make me think, ah yes, well we don't we don't need an engineer. You know, we don't need an architect of all this. Um to explain the mechanism does not reduce our wonder at at the maker. And you know, when when Johannes Kepler, you know, understood the the great truths of astronomy and you know saw about the the planets in their orbits and and circling around the sun, um did that make him think, Oh right, well we don't need God now 'cause I've I've figured out their orbits. No, what he what he said is I'm thinking God's thoughts after him. It it increased his wonder. It it made him, you know, ever ever more praising uh of the gods who is the god not the god of the gaps who's just become smaller, but the god of the whole show, whose mind he has just sort of accessed in in some way. Stephen Hawking at the in end of his uh brief history of time says, you know, if we know everything we'll know the mind of God. You know, he's since said some different things about about God recently. But but that's certainly one way that you can look at science, and I I think that's that's the way a believer looks at science. We've we've understood more of the mechanism. Let that make us praise the Maker. So no, science does not does not rule out God at all.
SPEAKER_03And of course we did the uh episode on the big questions and what about science? That was episode nine. So Glenn, what about evolution? Because many atheists would believe in evolution. Um I mean it would be right to say even some Christians believe in evolution. So w what about uh what about the origin of life?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh what what to say when that question comes up? And and and it's interesting you say w what to say on the origin of life. It's interesting that I mean evolution actually only answers the question about the origin of species, which is very interesting. So Charles Darwin didn't didn't attempt to tell you about the origin of life, his theory d assumes life and then talks about how speciation happens and and uh and all that. So um it doesn't tell you the origin of life, it doesn't tell you the origin of the cosmos, it doesn't at the other end tell you about the origin of consciousness and mind and that kind of thing. It tells you a very limited thing, the origin of the species, and and even if even if you think that Charles Darwin has absolutely nailed it and absolutely given you um the origin of the species, that origin question is the least of our worries when it comes to origins questions. The origin of the cosmos, the origin of life, the origin of consciousness, all all those issues are are far bigger in terms of of their importance for our for our lives and for our understanding of the world, um and none of those origins questions can be answered by Darwinian evolution, by survival of the fittest. They they can't be. So even if you think you've got you know the origin of the species nailed, uh you've still you've still got those three other origins questions origin of the cosmos, origin of life, origin of consciousness. Do Christians believe in evolution or not? I I I quite often speak in in environments in which there'll be Christians in the audience on on both sides of that debate, and and usually what I say is is look, no no Christian creationist denies that survival of the fittest happens. No, you know, no Christian creationist denies that that that happens at all. You know, humankind, we believe, came from Adam.
SPEAKER_03Certain adaptation and things like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, all sorts of adaptation happens, and and you know, in answers and answers the answers in Genesis Guy will will say, Look, all the species of cats have come from, you know, one pair of cats on on the ark, and we've got lions and we've got tabbies. And all sorts of adaptations happen. So no Christian, I've never met a creationist that denies that adaptation and change happens according to natural selection. Uh on the on the other end of things, no Christian evolutionist believes that natural selection is the whole show. As those, you know, simple, mindless, undirected mutations and you know, happening and then natural selecting acting on that. No Christian evolutionist believes that that is the whole show. So, yeah, on the one hand, all Christians all Christians say that adaptations happen according to natural selection. All Christians say that that's not enough to explain the universe. From that footing, I I then I then say, well, is natural selection the greatest explanation for not just the origin of the species, what are you gonna do about the origin of cosmos, origin of life, origin of consciousness? And I I do tend to think that if all you've got is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. If all you've got is natural selection, then every ever every answer you try to give to why the world is as it is um will will start to be very limited. Hammers are good. Hammers are great, hammers work well on nails. But in turn if that's the only tool in your box, it's not really going to do the whole job. The the last thing I'd say on the on the question of evolution is um the best way to convert someone, if you know, if you believe in creationism, you believe in six-day creation, the best way to convert someone to that is to convert them to Christ. If someone sees that Jesus Christ rose, then they understand the logic of 1 Corinthians 15, which is that if Jesus Christ rose, Adam fell. And everything else falls out from that. You know, uh Adam, who was once perfect or once very good, falls into death and sin and the universe is cursed and all that sort of thing. If you if you convert them to Christ, they'll start to believe in creation. I wouldn't see creation as a stepping stone to believing in Christ, but I'd see Christ as the stepping stone believing believing in creation.
SPEAKER_03Excellent. Okay. Uh last one then, we've got uh circular reasoning.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, this this often comes up this often comes up, have you ever been asked why do you believe that the Bible is the word of God? And then you say, Well, because the Bible says the Bible is the word of God. And and you know, naturally enough, someone says, That's a circle. You can't argue in a circle, you can't reason in a circle, can you? And uh and at that point I think we want to say that listen, this is just a truth about ultimate authority. Whatever you claim is your ultimate authority, there can be no reason higher than that ultimate authority, or else it's not your ultimate authority. Ultimate authority is ultimate. So if you say, I'm going to get my hair cut today, and then somebody says, why, and you say, Because I felt like it, maybe that's the ultimate authority. If someone says, because my mother says to do it. And they and if you say, you know, do you always do what your mother says? And they say, Yes, I always do what your mother says, well guess what? You know, your mother's your mother's word is ultimate. Okay? Um, why is your mother's word ultimate? If at that point you say, Well, because my mother's never failed me in the past and I want to make a good decision, well that actually pragmatism is your ultimate authority. And and at some point, at some point you'll discover what your ultimate authority is. And that ultimate authority has to be self-authenticating. It just has to be. Or else it's not ultimate. So I believe the Bible is the word of God because in it God speaks. Which is not quite as crude as the atheists would have you say it. They think that I believe the Bible's the word of God because because the Bible says the Bible's the word of God. And then the atheist says, Ah, but the Quran says it's the word of God as well. Well, yeah, sure. But it's a deeper thing. It's not just that the Bible says that it's the word of God, it's that God has spoken to me in the Bible, which has authenticated it as the Word of God. So Christians are just involved in this circularity. Sure. But everyone is. Everyone who has an ultimate authority is caught up in this exact thing. So if a materialist says the scientific method is the arbiter of what's true, and then you ask, Well, how do you know that? Um, judged by what criteria? And they might point to the way that the scientific method has triumphed over ignorance and brought us so many great tr technologies and that kind of thing. And and and essentially it boils down to when judged by science, the scientific method is king.
SPEAKER_03So it goes in a circle.
SPEAKER_02It is, it's absolutely it's absolutely in a circle. You know, you believe the scientific method method is the arbiter of what's true because it's proved itself effective when judged by science. You know, everyone has these ultimate authorities, which, by the nature of the case, they can't be authenticated by it by outside sources. You know, the scientific method cannot be tested by the scientific method. Now everyone says, okay, so you Christians, you're arguing in a circle, and what I want to say is, yeah, it's a virtuous circle. Do you want to get in on it? You can get in on it. Let me give you a Bible. Open it up, shoot up a prayer, and ask, God, will you speak to me? Will you authenticate this word as your own? I don't think there is that that same kind of openness in in the scientific kind of circular reasoning as there is actually in the Bible circular reasoning. The Bible is the word of God because in it Jesus speaks powerfully and personally. Will you take the Bible, will you read it, and will you will you encounter Christ in it? And and that's kind of my my final word on on all this, really, is that uh we we can get so cowed by atheism and especially the new atheism, and we can be so fearful of it. Yet actually the word of God is so much stronger. And if we actually get the Jesus of Scripture into people's hands and get them uh to to interact with him, he is so much more powerful than these world worldviews, and so much be more beautiful than these worldviews. So let's let's get Scripture into people's hands and and let Jesus prove himself.
SPEAKER_03Great. Well we've uh had a good look at some hot topics this week, and uh you have to wait and uh see what we're gonna do next week. Just before we go on, I want to make an offer to you, something that's related perhaps to these series of four shows on atheism, and it's a a booklet called Is Anyone Out There? It's written by John Blanchard and it's about answering questions such as Why am I here? Would it matter if I'd never been born? Does life need to have any meaning? These questions often lead to deeper ones such as Is there anything beyond our universe? Is there a greater intelligence? And this booklet explores these issues and points to some of the answers. It's a nice A5 size booklet, and it's a great one that you can give to a friend, perhaps who's asking these questions, or you can get it for yourself. Just contact us at the show's web address, which is revivalmedia.org slash TEP20. And if you go to the show notes on this episode, you can put any comments there about today's show, or if you'd like to share it, you can do so there. If you like listening each week, we would also appreciate a rating and review on iTunes. Just go to revivalmedia.org slash iTunes. That will take you directly to the place where you can leave us a review and rating. Thanks very much for listening, and we'll catch up with you next time.
SPEAKER_02See you next time.