On today's show, we're looking at uh a new subject, a four-part series looking at atheism.
SPEAKER_01The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you with Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_03So, Glenn, today we're going to be looking at atheism. That's right. And uh I've met many atheists. In fact, one of my school friends that was a a Christian when I was at school, or he said he was a Christian, I later found out that he had lost his faith and become an atheist. At what sort of time? Um in his twenties, I think. Maybe maybe a little earlier. University time. Okay. After 9-11. Uh before. Before. But uh yeah, it was a bit of a shock. I sort of caught up with him on Facebook and found that um his favourite book was God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens. Right, yeah. And I thought it was I thought it was a joke at first. Yeah. Uh but uh no, he he had uh decided that uh he didn't believe it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well but he's gone through the fully fledged anti-theism then.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um what do you think was going on with that?
SPEAKER_03I don't know. He married someone that is an atheist. Mm-hmm. He he went forward at a Billy Graham rally. Really? Yeah. Wow. Back in eighty seven, was it? Yeah, um Billy Graham thing, and he went forward then. And uh, you know, I was I was overjoyed at the time at school, you know, that met someone at uh become a Christian, but later on uh it seems that it didn't stick.
SPEAKER_02No. And and and I guess he's gone he's gone through to not just agnosticism or not just who knows, but and not just atheism, really. I mean I mean Christopher Hitchens is uh called himself an anti-theist, you know, said that the idea of God would be a bad thing. Yeah. It's so fortunate that there's no evidence for God, he said, because if such a being existed then it would be a terrible universe to live in. So yeah, he's he's that pendulum has swung.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. But you know, I think I believe his parents are Christians and they're praying for him and I'm praying for him, so Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03Who knows?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as as I said on uh an earlier episode, I I was at um Kingston University last year, at the end of last year, and and um uh no, in fact it was the beginning of this year, February, and uh speaking to a girl and she said, Yeah, I'm an atheist. And I said, Oh, okay, what what what brought you to that sort of belief? And she says, Well, it's because I'm a scientist, and and you know, obviously God can't fit with that. And I said, Oh, what are you studying? And she said, English literature. Um but somehow that made her a scientist, and somehow that made her an atheist as well. Within ten minutes, she said to me, You're so different to all the other religious people I've spoken to. I said, Oh, have you spoken to a lot of other religious people? She thought and she said, Actually, no, I haven't spoken to any other religious people in my life. And yet, in her thinking, she was a scientist. Even though she studied English literature, in her thinking she was an atheist and and no one had ever given her a good argument for Christianity, even though she'd never actually spoken to anyone religious in her life at any depth whatsoever. But it was just the default setting of there there was this girl 19 years old at university. What do you believe in? I'm an atheist. And I think these days the label atheist means as little as the label Christian can mean. And, you know, I think we're all I think I think Christians are all quite wary of someone who says, Yeah, I'm a Christian, if they just tick the box in the survey form, we all think, yeah, okay, culturally they're a Christian, but what does that really mean? We're not certain. I think in the same way when someone says they're at they're an atheist, especially given the sort of the high profile nature of people like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, people can kind of tick the atheist box. And yet they haven't done a great deal of thinking about it. It's not an entrenched position. So I think that's important as we talk to people about matters of faith, that actually w we don't get uh put off by by someone calling themselves an atheist.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean the the stereotypical idea of an atheist is is probably someone like Richard Dawkins, you know, out out and out um you know, to destroy Christianity and and that. And uh it's easy to sort of look at atheism as the opposing force of Christianity, you know, as if atheism is the enemy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it's really not the enemy at all. You know, there there is an enemy to to Christians and to the church, and and he's the devil, and Richard Dawkins is not the devil. And and none of the new atheists are the devil, you know, and atheism is not the enemy of of faith and that kind of thing today. Ever since Genesis 3, we've found ways of disbelieving in Jesus. Um and that's taken many different forms, and and uh atheism was not the first and it won't be the last. Um and it comes in so many variegated forms as well. So last month uh the University of Tennessee did uh a study of uh over eleven hundred participants. They filled out a questionnaire. Um they they all identified as atheists, but um, once they filled out this questionnaire, uh people at the University of Tennessee said, Oh, we can we can discern six different kinds of atheism here. Which again is is is quite different to how we generally we just think, okay, Richard Dawkins, that is what atheism is. Um but no, it's it it can take many different forms, and many different atheists are as embarrassed by Richard Dawkins as believers are, um, and want to distance themselves from Richard Dawkins as as much as Christians do.
SPEAKER_03Maybe they ought to have denominations.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they do. I I don't think they could splinter as much as we can, but no, I'm sure they could. But um yeah, I mean the the the six that they came up with um were there's the academic atheist, um and in their study, and and remember that we're talking about the southern United States, and we're talking about people who are responding to um advertisements on atheistic websites. So that's gonna skew the percentages, but but uh the academic atheists were 37%. And these are the educated folk, uh perhaps they belong to various sceptic societies or free thinking groups. They read books on non-belief, they read old philosophers, they read new philosophers, they might be somewhat versed in theology. Um those are the sort of 37%, and and and those kinds of people might be might well be embarrassed by Richard Dawkins um and might express that at on on some level. Uh then sort of there's the activist uh atheist, and uh these are kind of the really evangelistic atheists. So these guys do subscribe to sort of Richard Dawkins' Twitter feed and and they they seek promotion of secularism and humanism and and and certain uh rights issues. Um these these guys are the evangelists uh for atheism, that's the activists. And then there's this sort of the the agnostic atheists. Um only 7.6% they they reckoned were agnostic seeker atheists.
SPEAKER_03Um they they would be sort of people that don't believe but aren't really sure.
SPEAKER_02Or they they would say they're fairly sure that they're an atheist, but they would also say that they don't really mind that there are religious folk around the place. They're not trying to convert anybody, they're very happy, sort of um yeah, they're just very happy with a whole smoger's board of beliefs out there, and they're not yeah, they they ar they embrace uncertainty, um, really. Uh and then there's the anti-theist, and I guess Christopher Hitchens would be the the arch anti-theist. Uh about fifteen percent of of this survey uh turned out to be anti-theist. And that's that's very much religion is bad, and um I saw Richard Dawkins wearing a t-shirt the other day. It says um it said, religion, together we can find the cure. Right. Which is which is appallingly offensive, really. I mean if if you wanted to get offended offended, um you could I mean can you imag can you imagine him putting any other group on that t-shirt and saying, you know. I mean honestly, on I mean, I I I dread to even name a subsection of of society and then to follow that with Together we can find the cure. But, you know, he's he's able to say that about uh religious people. That th those are the anti-theists. And then there's the non-theists, that was the smallest group in this study, four percent. They are just not bothered. Uh and I think if you did this study in England, um the non-theist would might might actually dominate, even though here it's sort of the least amount. Because in in the southern United States, you're bombarded with religion. You can't not have an opinion. Here, um, it's not that uh not that at all. I think you meet loads more non-theists, and I I would put that girl who studied English literature into the sort of the the non-theist uh into the non-theist category, they're just not bothered. Um and then finally, sixthly, uh, there's a ritual atheist. And this is the one that really surprised uh the researchers here. Uh these are guys who they don't believe, but they they love what religion offers by way of community and ritual. Um and so, you know, in in this country they've set up, you know, the atheist church um or Alan de Pot uh Alan de Button. Um he um he's written Religion for Atheists. And um in fact we've got it we've got a little clip of of him explaining how he's absolutely certain he doesn't believe in God, but um he recognizes that kind of the communities of faith and the rituals of faith provide a helpful framework for life.
SPEAKER_03Okay, well we'll play that and uh we'll put a link to it on the show notes.
SPEAKER_00The debates between believers and non-believers have a sterility to them. Um the non-believers look at the believers and think they're idiots, and uh the believers look at the non-believers and think they're damned. And um there's an unfortunate standoff between the two camps. And the s the issue with which they struggle eternally is does God uh uh exist or not? This is the one around which they center fruitlessly, endlessly. So I'm gonna begin tonight with uh a really bold, speedy assertion. We're gonna get that question out of the way. If anyone disagrees with the way I answer it, the doors will still be open, you can walk out, and I won't be offended. So let me just assert very categorically that I don't think God exists. Now, let's move on. Um that's not really the important thing at all. Um, the important thing is where we go from here. Um I'm writing and addressing a constituency that feels something like this. The doctrines of religion are implausible, the supernatural doctrines are implausible. But, but, a huge but I like singing Christmas carols. I like the atmosphere of old churches, I like Yom Kippur, I like reading bits of the Old and New Testaments, I like the Mass in B minor, dot, dot, dot. Um, it's that sort of person, someone who is interested in what you might call the secondary uh aspects of religion, whereas the primary doctrines are less appealing. And until now that choice has seemed rather stark, that either you have you accept all the doctrines and then you could have the secondary bits, or you reject the doctrines and then you're really on your own. Um and I want to argue for uh uh another way, um, and I want to put that forward to you now, new way of approaching uh these questions. And I suppose what I'm advocating is that non-believers can very much involve themselves with religions in order to steal from them in a respectful way, but basically steal all sorts of concepts because they are a repository of the most incredible amount of uh wisdom, complex ideas, beauty, etc. And there's no need for that to be limited just to those who actually happen to uh subscribe to to a religion.
SPEAKER_03Alan seems to be a really nice bloke, doesn't he?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, oh they're all nice. They're all nice blokes if you get to know. Oh, and and women. Of course they are. But very different to Richard Dawkins. Yeah. Extremely different to Richard Dawkins, and self-consciously so. And I wonder whether the approach with I guess what what the researchers are calling the ritual atheist is is quite different in terms of um they enjoy the community, they enjoy the rituals. You know, I wonder whether the life of the local church might be an amazing an an amazing thing for for such a person to s almost find themselves believing. You know, I've I've got a friend who's uh got a church up in um in Lancashire, and he says that you know at any one time they've always got loads of atheists who who come into the church and uh they say, I don't believe in God, and you're not gonna convert me, but but I'm I'll come along and and and he says just give it some time as they see the life of faith lived out, as they see these you know, in a sense, rituals and the community life of the church, um, they almost find themselves believing. Um and he he said it's it's just this wonderful thing when you see a an atheist kind of at the end of a prayer say Amen. You know. And he says he almost wants to say, Ah, I gotcha, I gotcha. You know, but he doesn't. He doesn't. He's he's he's good like that. But um yeah, so uh a a very different way in it's a very different way into a conversation with a ritual atheist than it is with an anti theist or an academic thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you know. Yeah. And so I suppose, you know, looking at de the definition of atheism, you know, we've got to understand or perhaps quickly ascertain where people are are coming from when they say, Oh I'm a I'm an atheist and that. Because I mean even even Christians were called atheists originally. Yes. Uh Emperor Emperor Julian in the late fourth century said it is the Christians' philanthropy towards strangers, the care they take over the graves of the dead, and the affected sanctity with which they conduct their lives that have done most to spread their atheism.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And he he would regularly describe Christians as atheists and call them godless, the godless Galileans. Yeah. Um because, you know, here's here's a guy in in a culture where you've got the the Greco-Roman world, you've got this pantheon of gods, and these Christians are just meeting in houses and breaking bread with each other and talking about the scriptures, and where's their God? Where on earth is their God? And and and yet he just couldn't couldn't deny that the impact that these communities of faith were having. But he he considered them to be atheists. And in one sense, I'm I'm happy to take that kind of um that kind of label onto myself. I'm an atheist with regards to the vast majority of gods out there in the world. Richard Dawkins makes that point. He says, you know, I most of us are well, in fact, we're all atheists with regards to the vast majority of gods that are out there. I just go one god further. Well, we'll think about that in future episodes, but I I think what he's putting his finger on is that we're all sceptics and we're all believers.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um and I think I think that's a help helpful way forward. Alain de Botan is a sceptic about lots of things, he's also a believer in some things. And it's just nobody is just this pure empirical rationalist who, you know, who just has a a a steel trap for a brain, and you know. No nobody's like that, actually. We're all believers in some things and sceptics in other things. Um and that that can help to to frame a conversation more helpfully, I hope.
SPEAKER_03And so uh we need to ask which atheism.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we definitely need to ask which atheism um we're dealing with. And and we also need to ask which God are we talking about as we talk about all these things. I think I've said before on the podcast that uh uh when Tom Wright was a was a chaplain uh in Oxford, uh, he would get all sorts of students coming before him into his chaplain's office, and and uh eventually they'd sheepishly, you know, confess that I don't actually believe in God, and he had the great line back. He said, Well, which God don't you believe in? Um and they'd think that was an odd question. They'd say, Well, it's God, you know God, you know, the big guy in the sky, high on power, low on personality, you know that guy, and and Tom Wright would say, Well, you're right not to believe in that guy. I I don't believe in that God either. Let me tell you about Jesus. I think that's such a fruitful way forward. Um when someone says they believe in God, ask, okay, but which God are you talking about? There are millions to choose from, which God, when they say, I don't believe in God, again, that doesn't shut down the conversation on God. You can say, Well, which God don't you believe in? Describe him to me. And no doubt there will be things in their portrayal of God that you can say a hearty Amen to. And then you bring in Jesus, because that's I mean, that's the point uh of all our conversations. You know, we're not we are not just theists in the abstract. Um and and so often in in sort of discussions with atheists you can think that we then take on the theistic position rather than the atheistic position. I don't think that's right at all. We're Christians. We believe in Jesus, not just God in the abstract. You know, like if there was a debate going on between a Muslim and an atheist on the existence of God, you know, which side would we be on? Um in a sense we're not on either side, I don't think. Because we we don't believe in Allah. And and and many of the great points that the atheist will make against Allah, we can say Amen to. You know, it's it's not that we're just theists in the abstract. We believe in Jesus. We need to constantly put Jesus before the atheist. And say to whether they're an academic or an activist or an agnostic or an anti-theist or a non-theist or a ritual atheist uh put before them Jesus because I think he will surprise them and get under their radar and and and that's when fruitful evangelism happens.
SPEAKER_03Excellent. Good. We're gonna bring that to a close, Glenn. Plenty more to say. Yeah, uh, next time we're gonna look at uh the still looking at the subject of atheism, but looking at uh what things atheists get right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it'd be good to sort of just explore that a little bit. Yeah. And if you're listening today and you have any comments about today's show, just go to revivalmedia.org slash TEP17. Thanks for listening to the Evangelist Podcast. I hope you like listening each week. If so, we'd really appreciate a rating and review on iTunes. And I was very pleased to see that we had five ratings, five five star ratings.
SPEAKER_02Twenty-five stars.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, twenty-five stars. Took you a while.
SPEAKER_02Germany show my working.
SPEAKER_03So those five people gave us five stars. Five stars. Yes, thank you. And uh we had a review from Mikey W. So thanks very much for that. If you'd like to do that, go to revivalmedia.org slash iTunes. That will take you directly to the podcast page where you can leave us a rating and review. Thank you very much. So just to reiterate the web address for this episode where you can comment on this specific show along with the relevant links, the video from Alan Baton, etcetera, just go to revivalmedia.org slash TEP seventeen.