On today's show, we're still looking at some of the big questions that get asked when people talk to us about Jesus. This week we're looking at uh the Bible and the Old Testament and the issue of genocide.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you. With Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_01Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. This is the show where we try to unravel difficulties in sharing the gospel and give a reason for the hope we have. I'm Andy Brinkley, Revival's Media Producer, and with me is Revival's Evangelist Glenn Scrivener. Hello. Right. Just before we go on, I want to tell you about a valuable resource we've got. It's called the International Daily Prayer Bulletin. It's a small twenty four page booklet that tells thirty-one stories of what God is doing around the world. Did you know of God's work among Russians young people or the training of young people to stand up for Christ in the UK Parliament, or that God is working in North Korea? Well you can hear more about it in our prayer bulletin. You can get it free of charge by going to revivalmedia.org slash bulletin. So Glenn, we're looking at genocide this time, and I'm going to read from Deuteronomy seven. It says When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess, and drives out before you many nations, the Hittites, the Gergeshites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, Perizites, Hivites, and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you, and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you, and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally, make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them, do not give your daughters to their sons, or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your children away from following me to serve other gods, and the Lord's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. Doesn't really sound very much like the teaching of Jesus Christ in the New Testament. What do we do with Old Testament passages like this?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I mean, 'cause Jesus says, Love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you, bless those who curse you, bless and don't curse them. You know, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, if your adversary sues you for your c your cloak, give him the shirt off your back. Don't pick up the sword, those who live by the sword will die by the sword. My kingdom is not from this world. Otherwise my followers would fight for me, but my kingdom is not from this world, says Jesus. The kingdom of heaven is within all these sorts of things that uh are famous and have in in some senses built our civilization. And yet, here we've got this book that Jesus says is his book. You know, Jesus Jesus tells us, put down the sword and take up my book. Okay, but but his book says that this happens. Um these uh incredibly serious wars that the Lord Himself commanded in the Old Testament. And and how do we how do we deal with that those two things jarring together? I think the first thing to say is that it's not the atheist that makes us think, oh, hang on a minute, these two things jar. You know, so it's not as though the atheist says, hang on, Deuteronomy 7 doesn't sound very much like the world I live in. The Christians been saying that for two thousand years because it's not the atheist who's pointed out that the shedding of blood is a serious thing. It's Jesus who has has taught us that. Um Jesus has taught the West that. You know, we we look back at these three and a half thousand-year-old, you know, war stories from the Old Testament, and and we find it almost impossible to think our way into their warlike worlds. But a massive reason that we find it difficult to do that is the advent of Christianity. So that's not really answering your question, but it is it is saying that it's not it's not that that the atheist has pointed this out. The Christian, because they're a Christian, finds this difficult.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Do you think I mean it's can we call what God does genocide anyway? No.
SPEAKER_02I yeah, and and and I would I would object to that. If it's if it's phrased to us in that in those terms, you know, this is this is genocide. I would just point out it's there's nothing racial about this. There's there's nothing about ethnicity about this. Uh because if if you keep reading on in the Old Testament, you'll you'll see that when Israel itself doesn't live up to the Lord's standards, it is obliterated by, you know, well, the north is obliterated by the Assyrians, the south by the Babylonians. Um it's it's not an ethnic thing. Um these are wars, divinely mandated, uh, but it is not genocide, and I think we should we should make that clear to people.
SPEAKER_01And when the Israelites came into the land, they didn't wipe out everybody anyway.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean that's what's fascinating about it. Um and and a a number of people have have pointed that out, and and uh I think in the show notes we'll um we'll have a link to uh Paul Copan, whose book Um what's it called? Is God a Moral Monster? That's it, Is God a Moral Monster, is uh really, really helpful um not only on the uh this issue of the Old Testament wars, but on other issues like slavery and and treatment of women and that sort of thing. Um fantastic book to get hold of. But he points out that that all this language of uh completely destroy and that that kind of thing was kind of ancient sabre rattling and was understood in in Old Testament context to be Old Testament sort of sabre rattling, you know, we're gonna destroy them root and branch sort of thing. And yet when you when you get through to places like um oh Joshua 9 and 10, you see that the Gibeonites come and and ask for terms of peace, and there are treaties made with them. And when you when you see what Joshua ends up doing in fulfilment of these verses, it's not a root and branch extermination of every man, woman, and child at all. What you see in Joshua is only the killing of kings and combatants. You only see s you know soldiers and kings dying.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um But should it have been? God is s telling them to to completely wipe them out, but they don't, perhaps because they feel that they can get value out of what's left. Well that's almost like disobedience.
SPEAKER_02Except that, you know, so if if you go to sort of Joshua eleven, Joshua 11 23, uh it says, Joshua took the entire land just as the Lord had directed Moses, and he gave it as an inheritance to Israel. Um Joshua 21, um, you know, the Lord gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their ancestors. Not one of all the Lord's good promises to Israel failed, every one was fulfilled. So it's interesting when you go to Joshua, you see that the fulfilment of this language from Deuteronomy 7 is not the extermination of every man, woman, and child. In fact, what you see, um, I was just looking at Judges uh earlier today, in Judges chapter one, uh Judges chapter one, verse eight, it says, The men of Judah attacked Jerusalem also and took it. They put the city to the sword and set it on fire. And you think, well, that's that's that for Jerusalem. And then just a few verses later, verse 21, it says, The Benjaminites, however, did not drive out the Jebusites who were living in Jerusalem. To this day, the Jebusites live there with the Benjaminites. Um putting the city to the sword, setting it on fire, devoting it to destruction. Um actually you you leave the Jebusites there. And so what Paul Copin argues, and I and I think very persuasively, is that this this language of totally destroy i is a language of sort of all-out warfare, no compromise. But those who fled the cities escaped. Those who stayed to fight didn't. And I think what's interesting is that um the language of drive them out both precedes and predominates over language of wipe them out. Right. It's it's drive them out, drive them out, drive them out. And and what we see in practice is a is a driving out and and a war and and you know, soldiers die and it's and it's uh a fearful thing. But I I think that's the way to understand language like destroy them totally.
SPEAKER_01But I can hear someone saying, but hang on, isn't even drive them out quite sort of ethically problematic?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, it I mean it it completely jars with our sensibilities in 21st century Britain, of course it does. Um but that probably says more about us in our in our culture, in our little cultural moment that we inhabit right now. Um certainly it wasn't in any way, shape, or form um abnormal for those in in people living in in in those time at all. But something deeper than that, I mean, so often people say, you know, why doesn't God stop an atrocity? Why doesn't God just step in and do something about it? And what we've got with these with these nations is four hundred years of a level of evil that's just sickening. We we're talking about child burning levels of evil, uh you know, passing their children through the fire as sacrifices to their detestable gods. Um w we're we're talking about four hundred years uh where the Lord has patience on these nations. Um and in fact he holds his own people, Israel, in slavery in Egypt for those four hundred years, gives them four hundred years of of clemency, and then after four hundred years, um steps into history and provides a kind of a a one-off, unrepeatable uh example of what divine justice looks like. Um So if if if we if we're always saying, why doesn't God step in and stop stuff? And then after 400 years of patience He does step in and stop stuff, I don't think we can then say, hang on, God, that's unfair, that's unjust.
SPEAKER_01Because the Israelites for four hundred years were enslaved and then they're coming into this new land where all these people were performing terrible things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And you know, and there's clemency shown. So so Rahab, you know, is shown mercy, Joshua two, and uh the Gibeonites, Joshua nine and ten. Those who sought terms of peace always got terms of peace, as as you read through the story. Those who didn't were destroyed totally, and you know, that's that's a hugely jarring thing to come to terms with, and yet this this is not not just the God of the Old Testament, this is the God of the New Testament as well. This is this is this is our God, a God who will judge the world, and a God who provides refuge, provides refuge in his son, and just as as Rahab found you know mercy by putting the red cord, you know, out the out out the window uh as a sort of a foreshadowing of the Passover with the red you know over the door frames that saved those households, which was itself a foreshadowing of Christ who provides us with you know his own blood as a shelter. He always provides that shelter, but there is a judgment coming, and and we shouldn't we shouldn't be surprised uh that there are stories of of of shocking justice.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So this is really what you were saying there is how Jesus is fitting into this picture of destruction and judgment.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, I mean this this is the kind of Jesus th that we see in the in the in the scriptures. Luke chapter twelve, verse forty-nine, Jesus says, I've come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled, but I have a baptism to undergo. Um, which is again this this sense of yeah, Jesus has come to to judge the world, but he's got a baptism to undergo, a baptism of fire. He's gonna take the fire himself, he's gonna be the place of refuge. Um so you know what we what we say to the world is yeah, there is judgment, it is just judgment, but there is also a place of of refuge, and and his name is is Jesus, and he sheds his own blood for his enemies. So that on the cross he prays, Father, forgive them. So the kingdom that he brings is is is one of you know cheek turning, enemy forgiving love. You know, there it there is blood shed in Christ's kingdom, um, but it's actually it's his blood shed for us, and then it's our blood shed for our enemies. Which means, you know, it there can be for a Christian, there can be no genocide for a Christian, there can be no killing of enemies for a Christian. We we'd rather be killed by our enemies than than kill. So anyone who's you know worried that, oh, you know, because there's Deuteronomy 7 in the Bible, surely Christians are gonna go out and you know go to war in the name of Jesus. Well, some have, and that's horrendous because Jesus told us not to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so this what you're saying is is a perfect cross-country run to the cross, isn't it? You uh someone asks you about genocide, and the thing to do would be to talk about the judgment and mercy through Jesus to point to how he's taken the judgment for us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And and I think and point out that look, that there can be no such thing as a Christian genocide. There can be no such thing as as killing your enemies in the name in the name of Jesus for us who uh have you know taken refuge in Jesus now? Um I think that that needs to be said to allay certain fears.
SPEAKER_01So just perhaps a bit more pressing, difficult question. What about if someone says, Well, if you're a Christian and you go into the army, if you were conscripted, you went to the army and you know, you had to fight against people and you had to shoot a load of people. Would that not be crossing God's boundaries?
SPEAKER_02Well, that I mean there it there is a a pacifist um strain to to Christianity coming out of, you know, Jesus teaching them to turn the other cheek. That's not been the majority view that the church has taken over church history, but it's a very honourable thing to think that, you know, Jesus says turn the other cheek, so why do why don't we turn the other cheek? However, Romans thirteen, um the state is there to punish the evildoer. Um the state therefore has the apparatus of force and the state is a good thing, and and you know, from the earliest times the church has always um had people who mm have happily been in Caesar's army or um worked for the state and and and been involved in that kind of way. So if God is able to call in Romans thirteen, even sort of emperors who are, you know, ris presiding over armies, you know, they are God's ministers who bear the sword for good and for your good and for the upholding of earthly justice in that sort of earthly temporal kingdom way. You know, we we have in the Bible that that that kind of thing is a good thing, and upholding law and order in that way, and wielding the sword for that cause, there seems to be a place for it if you go to Romans thirteen. And and that's where you get just war theory coming in, with with people saying, Well, uh therefore under what circumstances? Because you you can't just say, Well, I just wield the sword because Romans thirteen says I can under what circumstances can there be just wars. Um and I think some somebody like John Stott in Issues F Facing Christians today um goes through you know the arguments for what would make for a just war. Perhaps we could put a link to that book. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01And when Doug Wilson debated Christopher Hitchens before his death, Hitchens spoke of the horrors of the Old Testament genocide. And then Doug Wilson said, Horrible by what standard? Hmm, yeah. Uh what is that a valid point to make?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's a great point to make. Um so you know, I mean it works it works with uh an atheist. But if if an atheist says, you know, that was that's dreadful what they did in the Old Testament, um, so yeah, saying by what standard is that dreadful is is a perfectly valid comeback because Christopher Hitchens had no comeback to that. Um he just said, Oh, that's a good question. Um and it and it is a good question because if if we're here stuck in you know 21st century Britain in our own cultural moment, w how dare we pass judgment on, you know, three and a half thousand years ago and three and a half thousand miles away? What's what's that got to do with today? How how can we judge? Actually, what's interesting is that it's only only with God can you can you kind of have a a standard by which you can be outraged by those sorts of things. And then as we come under the God of the Bible's authority and as we as we see what this this God is like, uh we come to see that there is wrath and there is mercy, and they come together in the person of Jesus. But yeah, if if anyone's outraged by Old Testament wars, um you do have to ask, well, by what standard? What's what are they judging that by? And actually what you'll find them start to judge it by is is probably like a an ethic that's pretty fairly standing on on the Sermon on the Mount, actually. And again, that that brings us back to the point that it's it's not the atheist that points out that these genocides are difficult to reconcile. Well they're not genocides, but that these wars are difficult to ru to to reconcile. It's not the atheist that points that out. It's anyone who's read the Bible all the way through. Yeah. But we've got we've got this Jesus who tells us today to put down our swords and pick up pick up our Bibles. And that's that's why we've got this tension. But I think the tension is resolved in Jesus.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well we'll leave it there for another week. Thanks very much, Glenn. If you have any comments about today's show or would like to share it, you can simply go to revivalmedia.org slash TEP6D. Thanks for listening to the Evangelist Podcast. I hope you like listening each week. If so, we'd appreciate a rating and review on iTunes. It's very easy, just go to revivalmedia.org slash iTunes. That will take you directly to the podcast page. We'd be very happy if you could do that for us. So the web address for this episode where you can comment on this specific show, along with the uh Is God a Moral Monster book by Paul Copen? And the other book, Issues Facing Christians Today by John Stott. Just go to revivalmedia.org slash TEP sixteen.
SPEAKER_02And the other book Issues Facing Christians Today.
SPEAKER_01And the other book we mentioned Issues Facing Issues Facing