On this episode of the Evangelist Podcast, we're continuing to look at some big questions that often crop up when talking about issues of faith. And we're going to look at the question: Can we trust the Bible?
SPEAKER_01The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you. With Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scriver.
SPEAKER_05Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast, and we're looking this week at the Bible. Can we trust the Bible? But uh first, Glenn, you've been away recently. Uh tell us where you went and how how it went.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I've just been up to uh Wensbury, uh in uh near near Birmingham, and uh it's a place where famously Wesley was uh kicked out of uh the pulpit and and uh there were all sorts of riots in Wensbury when when Wesley preached there and tomatoes. Rotten tomatoes and that kind of thing in the eighteenth century. So thankfully I had a much nicer reception than that, and uh yeah, lots of different churches uh coming together on the Saturday, and I was doing some uh teaching on uh who is God and God the world and you the story of three two one. So um did that on the Saturday and then preached on Sunday morning on um suffering. Okay. Uh where is God in suffering? And uh perhaps we could put uh put a link to that on the on the notes. Yeah, good. In other news on on three two one, uh it's been uh translated into Turkish. Really? So yeah. Wow Uch Biki kir or something. Oh, I hadn't seen that.
SPEAKER_05I'll have to uh seek that on I'll put that on the notes as well.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so it's now in Turkish, Spanish, French. They're working on Maltese and German and Chinese and a few others. So yeah, that's good fun.
SPEAKER_05Excellent. Good. Okay then, well we're going to um look at being able to trust the Bible. The Bible is the book, if you like, of uh the Christian faith. How authentic is the Bible? I mean, can we actually say that we have the original documents that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John actually wrote? Yeah, well, no, we don't have.
SPEAKER_04We don't have the very papyrus on which Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John um and the other authors of the New Testament uh wrote uh their books, and we don't have um the ancient scrolls that uh the Old Testament uh authors wrote on either. Um but that's not really a problem un unless you kind of believed that I don't know, th that the actual um ink on the paper had some kind of magical properties or that kind of thing. We we don't really believe that the Bible is the word of God in that sense, in in as though it kind of fell from heaven as as an asteroid and and we just sort of discovered it. We believe in the actual text. We believe that God speaks in his word, and we believe that it's been preserved as it's been passed down through copy after copy after copy. But it is worth realizing that absolutely there have been many, many manuscripts. Let's think let's think about the New Testament in particular. There have been many, many manuscripts, and they've been passed on generation after generation, and we we need to be clear that that's that is how the text has come down to us.
SPEAKER_05I mean, I suppose th there's a temptation to think that the it's a bit like a photocopy of a photocopy of a photo, you know, in our in our mind. It gets more and more deteriorated. Yes. But uh they were very particular, weren't they, and how they sort of copied and you know, if you if you made a mistake you'd have to sort of scrap the whole section of scroll and start again. So Yeah. Well it's sure it was is pretty accurate.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean it it got better. They got better at copying as as they went along in the various, you know, copies of the manuscripts. And obviously, by the time you get to photocopying in the nineteen forties, we're doing quite well. By the time you get to the printing press in the uh fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, then then we're doing quite well. Uh before then, we've got a lot of handwritten manuscripts, and and yeah, there there are absolutely many different manuscripts with many different variant readings of the original text. And it is important to take seriously uh what various scholars say about those sort of variations.
SPEAKER_05So what do they say? What do they say?
SPEAKER_04Well, I th I think one of the one of the best things to do, and uh and the thing that kind of has built my faith about the reliability of uh the New Testament documents is actually uh to go to someone who is quite a sceptic about them. So Bart Ehrman uh wrote a uh a best-selling book was on the New York Times uh bestseller list called Misquoting Jesus. And of course, the way you get these kinds of books published is by being extremely sensational with your claims. And he's got incredibly sensational claims how we can not trust the Bible, but then incredibly meagre evidence as to why we can't trust the Bible. But uh if you want to go online, you can you can uh listen to lots of stuff by Bart Ehrman and uh and one particular um debate which uh we'll make available on the on the notes for the show uh is a debate between James White, a great Christian apologist, and Bart Ehrman. And um well, you know, let's let's hear from Bart's own words the problem as he sees it with trusting the accuracy of the Bible.
SPEAKER_00Let me give you some statistics. How many copies do we have? Well, uh it's a little bit hard to say exactly how many copies we have of the New Testament, but we have something like 5,500 copies in Greek, the language uh in which they're originally written. Plus, we have thousands of copies in Latin, and we have copies in other ancient languages, and people who are textual scholars uh learn when they're sort of learning good languages, they learn series, and they learn topic, and they learn topic, and they learn all types of. From complete manuscripts to fragmentary companies, five thousand five. That's a lot, that's a lot, that's a lot of how many other books in the world. The good news is we have how many of these things. The bad news is that some of them goes back to the original, and how often stays in them. How many changes made in the text of the New Testament? We don't know because nobody has been able to have all the numbers yet. Even with the development of computer technology, we don't know how many differences there are. There are scholars who will tell you that there are 300,000 differences, scholars who will tell you there are 400,000 differences, people will come up with all sorts of numbers, but the reality is we don't know. We can't put it in relative terms. There are more differences in our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament.
SPEAKER_04Wow. Okay. Which sounds yeah, very daunting, doesn't it? So between, you know, five and a half thousand Greek manuscripts and and tens of thousands of manuscripts in other languages like Latin and Syriac. So maybe three hundred thousand, maybe four hundred thousand differences. Now that sounds extremely daunting. But what he does go on to say is that the vast majority of those are spelling differences that make absolutely no no difference.
SPEAKER_05In the English.
SPEAKER_04There would be no no way of actually translating those differences into anything that made any odds in the English.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And I suppose you'd be daunted if someone said, well, you know, explain all these differences, because you where do you start, you know?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Arguments over dots and words.
SPEAKER_04And very much it i it the vast majority of are things like that. But in the case of maybe a thousand, maybe fifteen hundred cases of variants, they are variant readings between the between the different manuscripts that uh have some possibility of being original and change the meaning in some way, shape, or form. Maybe a thousand, maybe fifteen hundred. No matter of creedal faith rests on any of these. But there are such differences. And and Bart Ehrman, his book hangs on, can he make enough out of these differences to say uh we can't trust the early uh we can't trust that what we've got in our hands is what was written, and if we can't trust that what we've got is what's written, then why even believe in the inspiration of the Bible? If God can inspire a Bible, why can't he preserve his Bible? That's the question that Ba Ehrman tries to make. And in his book, it's it's uh it's fascinating after after all the kind of the rhetoric, it boils down to a number of different cases that Ba Ehrman wants to take us to. So he takes he takes people to Mark chapter one, verse forty-one. And uh in your Bible, if your Bible's anything like my Bible, your Bible has the man with leprosy comes to Jesus in Mark one verse forty-one. And in my new NIV version, the today's NIV, it's got Jesus was indignant and he reached out his hand and touched the man. Now that might um sound a bit unfamiliar to you, because perhaps you are used to reading it in the old NIV. I've got an old NIV translation here, and it says, filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. So there there are two kinds of traditions in the various manuscripts. In one line of manuscripts it says Jesus has uh indignation or anger as he reaches out. In another it says he has compassion as he reaches out, and which is original, and and lots of different people disagree on which one is the original one. But what's interesting is that Bart Ehrman thinks he knows what the original one is. He he thinks it's Jesus full of anger, reaches out. Now, of course, you know, that doesn't have to mean that Jesus is angry at the leper at all. It's it's very much like uh in John chapter 11, Jesus comes to the tomb of Lazarus and he's angry, he snorts with indignation, he's he's deeply moved in spirit, says the NIV translation. That doesn't mean he's you know mad at Lazarus for dying on him or anything like that, but he is angry at death, angry at the final enemy, and I think we can say the same sorts of things if uh Mark 141 says um Jesus with anger reaches out. But but you know, so Bart Ehrman makes a massive play of this verse and says, Ah, this completely revolutionizes our view of Jesus. He also points to things like in in John chapter 8, uh there's the the woman caught in adultery. Now, if your Bible's anything like my Bible, and I'm I'm pretty sure it would be, uh when you look up John chapter 8, uh in my little NIV Bible here, it says the earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have these verses. So, you know, the Bible that you've got in your hands is absolutely up front with what uh the various traditions say. Uh similarly, at the end of Mark chapter sixteen. Mark chapter sixteen, again, my my Bible says, after verse eight, it says the earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have Mark sixteen, verses nine to twenty. But but Ehrman makes a big deal out of that and says, Ah, well, uh, we can't trust it because in some of the manuscripts these verses aren't there. But the thing is, our modern Bibles don't claim that they were there. Another another another verse is um 1 John chapter 5, where some very late manuscripts talk about how there are three witnesses that testify in heaven the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, um, which very clearly sort of been later emendations. Um But Bart Ehrman goes so far as to say this is the only sort of d um place where we could we could have the doctrine of the Trinity, and it's been inserted late and and you know, therefore we can't trust the New Testament documents. Yet, you know, my Bible and I'm sure your Bible at home makes it clear that that these are later a additions into the into the um textual tradition. And to say that this is the only verse on Trinity is absolute absolute rubbish. So I mean this is why I say it really kind of increased my faith to to say, oh okay, well, here's this guy, Bart Ehrman used to be a Bible-believing Christian. He went to Wheaton College, you know, where Billy Graham used to go, and you know, all these sorts of things. And then he, you know, what he says is he made these dis discoveries that that sh shook his face to the core, and now he can't believe the Bible, can't believe in in in God, in it's certainly not in the same way anymore. And yet you you turn up his book and and it's really it's really stuff that that m you know, your own copy of the Bible on your bedside table lets you know about this stuff and is not embarrassed about this stuff. There's no evangelical scholars that are embarrassed about this stuff. Um it's all it's all there.
SPEAKER_05But uh, how can we be sure that uh you know things haven't degraded, sort of like Chinese whispers?
SPEAKER_04Well, I mean, because there's so much agreement on the manuscripts, uh actually, you know, there there are these sort of thousand, fifteen hundred meaningful, possibly meaningful variants, and and they're only as meaningful as the ones that I've just been mentioning. Um there there are these maybe thousand or fifteen hundred in amongst a sea of you know one point three million pages worth of manuscript material. Okay, so so we're talking about massive actu actual agreement on all these things, but yeah, how do how do we know that there's not a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy like Chinese Whispers? And maybe it's completely, you know, corrupted, so that there might be agreement, but it's only agreement about you know what the state of of the of the copyists were in the fourth century. Um how do we know that it goes all the way back to the first century? Well, I I think it's it's not so much a linear Chinese Whispers game, it's more like a family tree. If you imagine a sort of a family tree that's got lots of different lines coming out from it. And that's why it's so valuable that we've got five and a half thousand Greek manuscripts and and tens of thousands of of manuscripts in other languages. And that they they sort of trace back to different scribal traditions.
SPEAKER_05So, like if a if a great grandfather document, if you like, is exactly the same as uh uh a grandchild. Yes. Then you know that there's been good sort of authenticity between the the generations, if you like, of copies.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, absolutely. And then you can look at the different bows, if you like, the different lines coming out. And and yes, you you do see that ah, this branch of the family tree, they they tend to continually translate it as Jesus got angry, and this branch of the family tree continually translated as Jesus um had confession. And you and you think to yourself, well, at some point there was some scribe who either thought, oh, it doesn't sound nice that Jesus is getting angry, let's let's you know switch it to um filled with compassion, or there's a a reason why it might have gone the other way. But what's interesting is in all that you don't lose readings. You only gain readings. So Ba Ehrman's wanting to say, We don't know what the the New Testament once said because there's all these different readings. Well, we know that it said at least one of those. And Ba Ehrman says he either got angry or he was filled with compassion. That one of those readings is correct, according to Ba Ehrman. So it's it's not that we it's not that there's an answer, you know, C, none of the above. It's either A or B. And Ba Ehrman says it's it's the it's the angry one, but I I heard somebody describe it as like it, you know, it's it's not as though you've got a thousand piece puzzle and there's only nine hundred pieces. Actually you've got a thousand piece puzzle and there's eleven hundred pieces in the box. And so, you know, there's a there are a hundred things that don't fit and in the vast majority of cases we can pretty quickly see how it was a copying mistake. In some very small cases there are some debatable things, but on none of these issues does any sort of creedal, you know, article of faith hang.
SPEAKER_05So I mean if you look, say, through the New Testament, you can see sometimes they quote back to the Old Testament. Yeah. And it's different how they quote it from how it is today. Yes. So what would you say?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I think that's really important to to point out because sometimes the New Testament author is quoting clearly from a Greek translation of the Old Testament, and sometimes they're most most often they're quite actually quoting from a Greek translation. Um sometimes they're quoting from a Hebrew manuscript. But what's interesting is that they are aware of different manuscript sort of schools and and different branches of family trees about the Old Testament. And they they seem quite happy to quote from this family tree and from this branch of the family tree and from that branch of the family tree. So what Bar Ehrman wants to do is to hold New Testament apostles to a standard that's higher than what the Bible itself has for quoting manuscripts. We believe that the Lord has preserved his word for us not so much by having identical manuscripts passing down through the ages, but through a living proclamation of the gospel that in New Testament and then beyond New Testament people have looked back to and given us faithfully uh the word of Christ as it's been passed on. But Ba Ehrman I guess, you know, you you could almost say if Ba Ehrman had his way, th God could not give us his word until nineteen forty one when the photocopy was invented. You know. But in his grace he's given it to us over thousands of years.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Uh often amused when that says uh you know, and it says somewhere in Isaiah or obviously you didn't have chapter and verses in those days, but you get the sense of he's trying to get the message over.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05You know, picks up the heart or communicates what the heart of the Old Testament message was about that thing, and communicates that and that's important, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05But also when we look at the Old Testament, would it be more authentic, if you like, to look to the Hebrew or or to the to the Greek?
SPEAKER_04Oh, that's a big question. That's a really big question.
SPEAKER_05Um and and it was written in Hebrew, right?
SPEAKER_04Yes. Yes, it was, and and yet the Greek translations we have of the Old Testament date back earlier than the earliest Hebrew translation of the Old Testament we have. So we can we can get Hebrew translations of the Old Testament, well just Hebrew manuscripts of the Old Testament that date back to about a thousand AD. But we can get Greek translations of the Old Testament that date back to BC. Okay. Um and so actually looking back to the Greek translation um can actually get you closer to the thought world of the authors of the Old Testament, because I guess the person trying to translate in 200 BC into Greek is having to think about what these Hebrew phrases mean and translating it into Greek. And so, in some ways, you can get a closer understanding of the meaning by going back to the Greek version. And actually the majority of New Testament quotations of the Old Testament uh rely on the Greek translation of the Old Testament.
SPEAKER_05Mm-hmm. And of course, Greek's a very sort of full, there's lots of uh vocabulary, you know, there's lots to to to choose from if you're translating into Greek.
SPEAKER_04Yes. And the and the ways that they translate things and the different things they have to add in order to f you know round out the Hebrew translation gives you a bit of an insight into what they were thinking.
SPEAKER_05So if I speak to someone and uh I want to share something of the gospel and I I bring out the Bible, can I be absolutely sure that what I've got in my hand is is authentically the real word of God?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I and I think in in the Bible, you know, there's there's lots of uh places where the Bible calls, you know, the written word, the word of God, but also obviously Jesus is the word of God with a capital W, the eternal word of God. And I think as the written words, which is it which is God's word, as it testifies to Christ the eternal words, you are hearing God speaking. And and so I I I really recommend in evangelism just just getting God's word into people's hands. It's it's the most effective thing I know how to do. Uh it's kind of how I came to faith, really, with with Luke's gospel in my hand, just pouring over it and letting God speak to me. At the end of the day, you could convince someone that the textual tradition was really, very, very good, and you could, you know, convince somebody that our textual criticism tools are excellent and that all the copyists were brilliant, but at the end of the day, that doesn't prove it's God's word. What proves it's God's word is God speaking to them through it. So I'd really recommend getting it into people's hands and getting it into their hands and not being ashamed that there are footnotes that say, you know, and some manuscripts say Jesus was filled with compassion, and some manuscripts say Jesus was was angry as he as he healed. And and not to be a ashamed of that at all, but in that and through that the person can really meet Jesus for themselves. There's a great line that Christianity explored uses as as they get Mark's gospel into people's hands. They say, you know, our prayer is that Jesus would walk off the pages of Scripture and into your life. And I think that's really the proof that this is God's word we're dealing with. So get it into people's hands and tell them to look, shoot up a prayer and say, God, if you're there, show me Jesus. If he's not there, he's not going to show you. If he is there, there's nothing more important than meeting Christ. And you can meet Christ, and people are today in their thousands meeting Christ through this book. What a proof that this is a living, active word of God.
SPEAKER_05Well, thanks, Glenn. We'll uh leave it there for this week, and uh we'll pick it up again next time because it's a full topic we can discuss. Thanks for listening to the Evangelist Podcast. I hope you're enjoying it each week. If so, why not leave us a rating and review on iTunes? It's very easy, you just go to revivalmedia.org slash iTunes. That should take you directly to the podcast page on iTunes. And we're making a special offer to you at this time. It's not a download or link, but yes, a real glossy booklet you can hold in your hand. Is anyone out there? It's written by John Blanchard, and it's all about answering questions, such as why am I here? Would it matter if I'd never been born? Does life need to have any meaning? This book explores these issues and points to the answers. It's a nice A5 booklet and a great one that you can give to a friend, perhaps, who's asking these questions or for yourself. So to receive a copy, you go to this episode's web address. It's just revivalmedia.org slash TEP12, and see you next week.