On this episode of the Evangelist Podcast, we are continuing to look at some of the big questions that often crop up when we talk about issues of faith. This week we're going to look at the subject of sex and sexuality.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you with Andy Brinkley and Glenn Striverley.
SPEAKER_01Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. We're looking this time at sex and sexuality. Last week we looked at gender, which kind of led on to these issues. So why is the Bible so weird about sex and sexuality? First question, Glenn.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, people often ask, you know, why why shouldn't the Bible just move with the times? Okay. As though the Bible was written in the 1950s, and now we need a new Bible for the 21st century or things like that. I think one thing to understand about the Bible and this issue is that it has always been out of step. It has always been out of step with the surrounding culture. So um in the Old Testament, the Egyptians had a very different understanding of sex and sexuality, the Assyrians had a very different understanding of sex and sexuality. You come into the New Testament, and you know, the Greco-Roman world, my goodness, you you couldn't you couldn't think of a of a less biblical environment in which to produce the New Testament. You know, p the one of the common sayings at the time was uh a woman for necessity, a boy for pleasure, and a goat for ecstasy. And this this is this is kind of the culture in which the Bible is written. So the the Bible's always been out of step. It's it's it's always been this weird thing that these believers, these believers in in the God of Jesus, get up to, that they've got this these strange views about sex and sexuality. And I I think that both Christians and non-Christians need to get our heads around that. So non-Christians need to get their heads around that in order to say, well, look, it's it's not just it's not simply an archaic vision of sex. Um it's always been a distinct vision of sex and always will be. And but Christians also need to need to kind of not hark back to some golden age of of when things were good, because the Greco-Roman world, not to mention uh the ancient Near East of the Old Testament times, uh, was never preaching a kind of a Christian understanding of sex.
SPEAKER_01I mean, some people might say, you know, shouldn't the Bible move with the times? You know, shouldn't we kind of interpret the Bible through our uh particular world view of the culture?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And and yet the Bible is never written in that sense of of trying to accommodate the culture. So to be to be true to the authors of the Bible, I think we ought to be out of step with the culture because they always were.
SPEAKER_01But some people uh might say, don't Christians have a negative view of sex?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and and I think at at that point we we've got to say no, it's it's actually the most beautiful view of sex in the world. I mean, what what is what is the Christian view of sex? The Christian view of sex and marriage and relationships and that kind of thing i is basically if you think about the idea of one flesh, in the Bible the the the phrase one flesh it means sex. It also means marriage. And so kind of the the way the Bible ties these things together is is very much the act of one flesh belongs within the union of one flesh. And that one flesh union is an all of life embracing unconditional covenant contract between man and woman for life. So you might think, oh that's a really negative view because it it limits your sexual options. Um yeah, it does limit your your options massively, but um, you know, my my first car was a was a beat up uh Vauxhall Astra. It cost me absolutely nothing. A a good friend sort of gave it to me, and I let anyone drive it. Absolutely anyone could drive it. Um if if I could get you on the insurance, you get the key, I don't really care. If you if you totaled it, it costs me nothing. That's fine, you know. So with the Vauxhall Astra, anyone could drive my car any time. But you know, if if I was given a Bugatti Varon, you know, the most expensive street legal car in the world, I think they retail at about 850,000 pounds or something. If I had a Bugatti Varon, nobody is driving that car unless your name is Scrivener, you know, and and even then Um So and I and I think Christians very much have the Bugatti Viron view of sex. It's very much it belongs within marriage.
SPEAKER_01We often get it wrong though, don't we? As Christians, we uh although we have a positive view of sex, we are failures.
SPEAKER_02Massively. Massively. And and we need to be admitting to those failures. You know, I I am a sexual sinner. And in the modern characterization or taxonomy of sexuality, I would be classed as heterosexual, but that does not make me immune to sexual sin. You know, I am as big a sexual sinner as the next guy, no no matter no matter what you're into, I am a sinner.
SPEAKER_01So when we come to the issue of homosexuality, are homosexuals any worse sinners than heterosexuals?
SPEAKER_02I th I think we're all disordered in our use of sex and sexuality. There are heterosexual disorders, there are homosexual disorders, but they they are disorders. In that what, according to the Bible, is the proper place for sex is one man, one woman for life. But it's not as though in the Bible Jesus is is pro-heterosexual in that sense. You know, you could never imagine Jesus in the middle of the Sermon on the Mount turning to his disciples and saying, you know, let your sexual desire be unto the multitude of women. You know, that kind of modern notion of of sexuality and heterosexuality, Jesus is against that as well. If we if we want to get an idea of what Jesus' view of sexuality is, I think I think Matthew nineteen um gives us kind of all all the raw materials that we need for a Christian view of sex. So he says, uh haven't you read that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female? So he's quoting there uh from Genesis chapter one, and then he quotes from Genesis chapter two for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh, so they are no longer two but one. And so what Jesus is is doing there is is here is gender. God makes us male and female in the beginning, and he's got this picture of marriage, which is one man, one woman kind of united together. And outside of that context, Jesus says, Don't even think about it. And that's Matthew five, you know, don't even think about it outside that context. So when when Jesus' disciples kind of hear about this, they say, if this is a situation between a husband and a wife, it's better not to marry. You know, they they're suddenly, oh my goodness, this is serious. You've you've just turned up the temperature to nuclear on this thing called sex and marriage. We all fall short of this of of this ideal. So we should not at all be pointing our fingers outside the church at certain groups out there who are getting it wrong. First of all, we should be looking at our own marriages, our own churches. Um, because we all we we all fail to live up to this this standard, but it is a beautiful standard, and I think I think Christians need to need to be better at at saying this is a beautiful vision for sex.
SPEAKER_01Okay, Glenn. So imagine that uh you're speaking to a homosexual who wants to come to Christ. Mm-hmm. What would you say to them?
SPEAKER_02I would say to them what I'd say to anybody. Because there's no sense in which that that person is a greater sinner than anyone else. Um and there's no sense in which they're excluded from Christ more than anyone else, or or in any sense of that. So I would simply say, Well, yeah, Jesus is for you and he has a wonderful way of life, and he has a wonderful vision for for life, including our sex and relationships, and and here's what it is, do you do you understand that? And you'll fall short of it, and I'll fall short of it, but welcome to Christ, welcome to his body, where we're all struggling with this and we're all falling in in different ways, do you want in on this? And what repentance will look like for them will be different from what it will look like from the corporate fat cat, or it will look different to someone who's absolutely enslaved to to vanity or more or or anything. Or really, really wicked sins like pride and hypocrisy and religious hypocrisy. So, I mean, if a religious hypocrite wanted to come to Christ, oh my goodness, there's all all sorts of repentance issues that will need to be worked out. But Christ is for them and welcome. Um, but they need to go in eyes wide open, knowing what what Christ's vision is. Um and I and I think there's good news that I am not defined as a heterosexual, and my friend is not defined as a homosexual. Thank God there is another identity for us to to belong to, to have. Christ gives us a new name uh to own and and to to live out of. So part part of what repentance will look like will be if somebody really strongly identifies as homosexual. I think that's that's an unhealthy uh attachment in the same way that you know if someone identifies as a certain ethnic identity or or whatever other other identity that's that's not Christ's identity. Um that will be one issue that will need to be spoken through. But come to Christ as you are, and and and there's there's there's a great acronym, uh priest. Um now that I've said it, I've forgotten what it is. Um what is it? Um practice radical inclusion. And the EST is the expect supernatural change, transformation, rather. That would be preak. Um those those would be the sort of the things that I'd be thinking as as I was preaching the gospel to homosexuals, w whether they're outside the church wanting to come in or inside the church, because there's plenty.
SPEAKER_01Uh often people say that the the Bible and Christians are homophobic.
SPEAKER_02If somebody said that they think Christianity is wrong and harmful, I would respect that. I would not instantly call them Christianophobic. I I think you can still disagree with something without being a phobic of of that thing, in the same way that, you know, I might think that Islam is wrong and harmful. But does that instantly make me Islamophobic? I d I I don't know. Uh if if a Buddhist says, and and you know, m many strands of Buddhism do, that uh eating meat is a sin and and to be condemned, does that make them a carnophobic? I I think bandying around terms like homophobia just just set a shoot-down conversation.
SPEAKER_01So Glenn, just uh just summarize for us uh you know that what we've been talking about uh this time about sex and sexuality. I mean what what is the main theme here?
SPEAKER_02I think that um well first of all to say that this is nowhere near the center of Christian faith. It really isn't. Um the only reason why it's such a prominent issue in the culture today is because sex is such a prominent issue in the culture today. And so as Christianity meets a world that is sex mad, then it's the sex issue that's that's gonna be sort of the the the front line. Um but but to make clear, look, it's not it's not at all the centre of Christian faith. Jesus Christ and Him crucified is the center of Christian faith. Um and what he says about sex and sexuality, according to 1 Corinthians 5, is for his people, and and the first duty of his people is to to look at themselves, not to point the finger at the world. So that's an another important thing to say. If you do want to step into the realm in which Jesus is Lord, if you want to be a member of a church, then I think Jesus has good news for sex and sexuality, and he says, Listen, my body matters. My gender matters. Um these are not infinitely plastic things that I can just kind of mold and shape the way I want to. I'm not self-created. I've been given an identity, a bodily identity, a gendered identity, and then therefore the way that I interact with others who have bodies and genders is in a certain way. And and we we we rail against that in this world because we we love to think that I'm self-created, I can make myself, I can change myself, I can do whatever I like with myself. Actually, the good news is that Jesus gives us an identity that's not for us to manipulate, that's not for us to kind of self-create or earn or or adapt in any way, it's just to be received. We receive an identity in creation, we receive an identity in new creation, and that that identity is not I'm homosexual, I'm heterosexual, I'm bisexual, I'm transgender, I'm queer, bi wh whatever. It's not it's not any of those things. It's I am Christ's and I belong to him. Um and and that's that's the good news. And and then how I live out that discipleship. Well, Jesus, like I say, he's got the Bugatti Varon view of sex and sexuality, and it's it's for Christians to live out among each other. And if we want the world to understand sex and sexuality, then what we need to do is to be content and happy with Jesus and his identity and his way. And when when the world starts to see Christians who have a flourishing life and a and a vision for for how marriage works and how relationships work and how sex works, that's what's going to change the culture. So my take-home message is if you're not a Christian, look to Jesus, because the sex thing is not it's it's peripheral, it's not central. For Christians, uh again, get your eyes off the non-Christian world, let's put our own house in order, and and let's live out this this wonderful vision for sex that Jesus has given us.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well, thanks, Glenn. There's a lot of deep issues there that uh we need to think over, so uh we'll leave it there for now. Thanks for listening to the Evangelist Podcast. I hope you like listening each week. If so, we would really appreciate a rating and review on iTunes. It's very easy. We've got a link that forwards to the podcast page on iTunes. Just go to revivalmedia.org slash iTunes. That should take you directly to the podcast page where you can leave us a review and we'd be very happy if you do that for us. I'm also going to offer you a booklet, yes, a glossy booklet you can hold in your hand. It's written by John Blanchard. It's called Is Anyone Out There? It's all about answering questions such as why am I here? Would it matter if I'd never been born? Does life need to have any meaning? And often that leads to deeper ones such as Is there a greater intelligence? So this book uh seeks to explore these issues and points to the answers. You can have it for yourself or you can have one to give to a friend, perhaps you know someone who's asking these questions. So simply go to the web address for this episode, which is revivalmedia.org slash TEP eleven, and you can be in touch with us there. You can also comment on this specific show if you've got any comments. It'd be great to hear from you there. And we'll see you next time.