Welcome back to the Evangelist Codpast.
SPEAKER_01If fish could fly, this would be a compass. The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you. With Andy Brinkley and Glenn Striver.
SPEAKER_02For this episode of the Evangelist Podcast, we're looking at some big questions that often crop up when talking about issues of faith. And we looked uh a couple of uh episodes ago we started looking at other religions. We took two weeks to do that. But this time we're going to be looking at the subject of suffering.
SPEAKER_00Big one.
SPEAKER_02And uh yeah, it's a question that often pops up in uh conversations. Uh have you ever had that, Glenn?
SPEAKER_00Have I ever had yeah, questions about suffering. It's interesting. Last no, yeah, it was last year, we did um Ask ESpawn, where we asked as many people as we could their big question for God, and then uh we polled uh about a thousand responses and tried to answer the the the top few answers that people gave. Questions that they would like to ask God if they had the the chance, and uh far and away the winner was about suffering. Um it polled, I think, three times more than uh the next most popular question. And and I know other people who've done similar surveys, and it's always suffering is absolutely the number one uh question that people ask, and I and I think in some sense absolutely rightly and understandably so.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean people sort of say why the bad things happen to good people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, why bad things happen to good people, which of course, you know, it's kind of the reverse of the way the Bible usually frames it, is you you read through the Psalms and it's always why do good things always happen to bad people? Yeah. Um but you know, we are in a suffering world and it's very, very natural to ask the question.
SPEAKER_02I guess some people ask the question from a personal point of view. Yeah. You know, I've been suffering um this issue, or you know, I had this trouble in my past, why did God let this happen to me?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um very very difficult to answer, really.
SPEAKER_00Especially if they're looking for the specifics of why did I get cancer right when this happened in my life, you know, you know, and those sort of specifics and details. It's um it's impossible to answer that specific question. It's interesting, in the in the book of Job, you know, the most extended sort of uh uh dealing with the issue of suffering in the Bible, Job asks twenty times the the Lord, you know, why, why, why, why. And actually the the reader, the reader has a much more of an idea of why than much more of an idea than Job does. Um and what Job doesn't get is Um here is the reason why suffering happened in this way and in and and you know at this time. And um what he does get um towards the end of the book is he is he gets uh an experience of the Lord in the in the midst of it and he is promised and he does get a happily ever after. What he doesn't get is an answer to the you know the why this particular suffering. But in in so many ways, you know, it's it's it's not exactly like the this question, but you know, people often say, you know, if you could know you know the date of your death, would you want to know? And you know, the there's so much knowledge that would be bad for us in life actually. It's very natural to ask why is this happening and why now. But um there are good reasons for the Lord not to tell us those sorts of things. But to fix our eyes on the true comfort, the comfort that Job had and the comfort that's that's promised to all Christians is the presence of the Lord in suffering and a happily ever after at the end of it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was thinking taking part in suffering. I don't know why this is happening to you, but let me help you anything that you need, and being a comforter in some ways.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely, which is the way the Lord enters into suffering and helps us. You know, the a a massive verse for me has always been sort of Philippians three, verse ten, where Paul says, I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection, and you think, yes, more of that, please, power of his resurrection, fantastic. And then Paul continues, and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death. And it's that that path that all Christians must take. Um we are promised trouble in this world, um, but we're also promised fellowship in suffering. You know, and there's that wonderful quote from a Spurgeon commenting on Daniel chapter three, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego are there in the fiery furnace, and Nebuchadnezzar looks down, he sees a fourth figure walking around you know with them, and he says, Oh, he looks like the Son of God. Well, well it's because he is. But um but but Spurgeon commenting on that says, you know, the Son of God never has us in the f in the furnace without joining us in there. And I think there's there's the proclamation of that truth to someone in suffering, as well as uh modelling it and being there for somebody in suffering. Um so that's that's you know, that's one way in which the suffering question is asked, you know, and it's very it's very differently asked by someone who's going through suffering. And you answer that in in that kind of way, but uh it's asked in a very different kind of way in the pub discussion or in the philosophy department. And then it it tends to be asked in terms of, well, how can the omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient gods, you know, allow suffering in the world? Um that's a different one to to answer.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes. I heard Sora a debate once and the lady was asking the Christian, what about cancer? And I don't think the Christian understood what she meant, but she was basically saying, Why have we got uh imperfect bodies where the body goes wrong? Um why did God create us with bodies that went wrong and give us things like cancer, which is basically proper cells gone gone rogue, if you like.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02So why why have we got imperfect bodies?
SPEAKER_00Well you've answered your own question, haven't you? There are proper cells that have gone wrong. And and even just a meditation on what cancer is almost tells you the Christian story, doesn't it? Because what what is malignant? A malignant tumor um is from the Latin that means badly born. We expect things that are born to be healthy and and, you know, well formed, and yet something that's malignant um has we expect it to be good, it's c it's turned out bad, and there's all sorts of corruption that's gone on of something that's originally good. And as soon as you say, okay, the problem with cancer is there is an original and ultimate good that has been corrupted somehow and turned to evil you've kind of got the Christian story of creation and fall. And it was so interesting. I was I was doing a debate last year, and uh the president of the British Humanist Association was on the other side, and he spent the entire time of his speech it was on the existence of God or that was it was whether we should worship God. And he uh he said, Of course we shouldn't worship God because of parasites. And he just read out all these different parasites that exist in the world and that cause all this corruption and death and how ugly they are and how, you know, disgusting it all was. A couple of interesting things about that. One was he played the whole thing for laughs. So there was a whole room full of mainly atheists who were laughing as he was describing, and there's this, you know, parasite that does this, and there's this parasite because he was saying, you know, good God, I don't think so. Um So that was very, very interesting because you you just ask you want to ask yourself at the question, well, is that evil then? As a Christian, I can say that's really evil, that's really that's horrible, that's suffering, it's wrong, that should not be. The atheist, on the other hand, was looking at this stuff and saying, Oh, it's unpleasant, it's disgusting, it's horrible. Um but not finding it evil. Not being able to point to something that's malignant and saying that's wrong. Because for the atheist it's not wrong, it's just stuff that happens, you know. So that was interesting. He was playing it for laughs. But then the the other interesting thing was, again, with parasites, what are we talking about? A parasite is a secondary thing that comes along and attaches itself to something that is life-giving. And so again, you've got this original and ultimate good that is corrupted by something that comes along later and causes death and pain. That is the Christian vision of creation and fall. So ac actually, I think Christians are really on home territory, we're really on home turf when we're talking about suffering, because actually the Christian story makes sense of not only why there is suffering, you know, there is a there is a fall, there's been a turn from the light into darkness. Not only why there's suffering, uh, but also why do we find it so unnatural? Why do we find it so horrendous that there should be suffering? Um Why does the atheist rant and rail against suffering? Who are they ranting and railing against? Uh C. S. Lewis said, You would never know what a crooked line was unless you knew what a straight line was. Why do we rant and rail against crooked lines unless we've got something in our minds, some kind of standard against which to judge it? Why do we rant and rave against evil unless we have some ultimate good that we're judging it against? Christians can get really upset about evil because it is a defection from the good. But if suffering is just one of those things and it's just stuff that happens, well fine, use it as an argument against God, but don't get upset about suffering. It's it's painful, it's ugly, it's grotesque, but it's not wrong, according to the atheist. Only the Christian can actually have a problem with evil.
SPEAKER_02So, Glenn, what would you do if you're in a conversation and the issue of evil comes up? How would you respond?
SPEAKER_00I th I think in one sense, you would inwardly say a little hallelujah quietly, because with the opportunity to discuss what suffering is, you've got the opportunity to discuss the gospel. Because every aspect of the gospel is actually about suffering or an answer to suffering, or you know, uh it gives us the context for why we find suffering so wrong. Um so quietly, thank God for it. And then I'd suggest this in all sorts of uh areas of evangelism, whenever a question's asked, beg the indulgence of the other person, say, Can I just tell you the the story of the Bible in a in three minutes? And then show you how, you know, suffering fits into that. So I'd I'd kind of say, Well, actually, you know, the Bible tells a story of God, the world, and you, and maybe I'd take them through 321, why not? Um But you know, the the story of okay, in the beginning there were three who are bound together in love and and ultimate reality is actually goodness, truth, beauty, love, self-sacrifice, right? You know, and that's the origin of all things, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And then, you know, they they make a world that is good, and you know, the Lord looks on things at at the end of all things and says, uh, it is very good. Um, and then do too, you know, Adam as the head of creation, he falls, and as the head of creation, it's i when he falls, all creation is sort of knocked off its axis. He's he stands at the head of humanity, the head, the head of the natural world, and the Lord even says, Cursed is the ground because of you. So even sort of natural evil is is caught up in the rebellion of humanity. But then Christ, the second Adam, he comes to enter into our suffering at its deepest point. And on the cross he takes onto himself all the curses, all the judgment, all the sin, all the suffering of the world. There's a wonderful verse in in Isaiah sixty-three. Isaiah says, Of the Lord, in all his people's afflictions, the Lord too was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them. Um the angel of his presence is the one who is in the burning bush, the one who was in the in the fiery furnace, Christ Himself. And and so in all our afflictions, God too is afflicted, and he sends Christ into the furnace to be with us, to be for us, to to suffer that judgment on himself, but then burst through into glory. And on that resurrection morning we see the new creation. We see we see what lies ahead in in God's future. And it's a it's a world beyond suffering, beyond death, a world in which Jesus sort of goes for country walks with friends and has meals and breakfast on the beach and fishing with mates and and explains reality and explains the Bible in wonderful ways, and there's face to face and there's feasting and that's where he's leading us to. And then, you know, perhaps I'd I'd I'd sort of say, you know, and if if we want a world without suffering, then then come to him. He knows all about your suffering now and he can get you through it. So that's that's why I say thank God for the for the opportunity to talk about suffering, because when you're talking about suffering, you're talking about everything.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And sometimes I think it's helpful to share your own experience of suffering and how God helped you through it and uh show that I am in a similar situation or I was or something, bring that sort of personal aspect to it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And that models to them as well that you you don't have an answer within yourself. The answer comes from Christ. You know. And the same with sort of struggling with sin and temptation and all sorts of th you know, depression or whatever, it it really helps in evangelism to sort of say, I don't have an answer to this stuff. This stuff's way bigger than me. Suffering's way bigger than me. I d I don't have an answer. Um but but I have found comfort in Christ who has the answer.
SPEAKER_02Great. Okay, well next time we're gonna take another hot topic.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02And uh we'll leave it there for now. I hope you like listening to the Evangelist Podcast each week. If so, why not leave us a review on iTunes? We've set up a simple forwarding link for you to go straight to iTunes. Just go to revivalmedia.org slash iTunes, and that will take you directly to the podcast page where you can leave us a review. Uh, we'd be very grateful if you did, and tell us what you think. Hopefully it will be a reasonable review. Or even if it's not. Thanks for listening to the Evangelist Podcast. The web address for this episode, where you can comment on this specific show, along with a link to a relevant talk that Glenn did on this issue, is simply revivalmedia.org slash TEP eight.