As an educationalist, why is it important to believe in something like original sin, would you say?
SPEAKER_02Well, because it's true. While I'm not a Christian, and we're certainly not a Christian school, we are immersed in a Christian Judeo culture. And certain things that seem obvious to me, like our conversation just now about original sin, I've come to realize they're not very obvious to many people. And I suppose that's because we have disconnected ourselves quite a lot from Christianity over the years.
SPEAKER_00Britain's tractor said teacher Catherine Battle Singh is in around having to cope with the Muslim pupils over decision to impose a prayer bag.
SPEAKER_01How do you go about honoring freedom of religion at Mikayla? Would they have been able to pray outside during lunch?
SPEAKER_02All the races and all the religions sacrifice in order to ensure that our multicultural community can succeed.
SPEAKER_01One thing this highlights is that there are different ideas and conceptions of secularism. You get a quite anti-religious secularism. And you're not into that. You're not banning hijabs.
SPEAKER_02We're not banning anything that doesn't jeopardize our school. Originally, we thought Prayer and the Ard would be fine. Then it turns out that it wasn't. So we had to ban it.
SPEAKER_01Hi, I'm Glenn from Speak Life. We like to see all things through the lens of Jesus. It's my great privilege to have back onto the channel Catherine Burble saying she is the headmistress of Michaela Community School in Brent, and she joins me there from London. Hello, Catherine.
SPEAKER_02Hi, Glenn.
SPEAKER_01So nice to have you on the channel again. We spoke back uh really during those crazy years of lockdown back in 2020. And uh at that time you were um in hot water, but you know, when are you when are you never when are you ever not in hot water, Catherine? Um at that time there was a little bit of a swirl around original sin, I seem to remember. Oh and you you came out with a a bit of a defense for this idea that we might we might not be pure pristine angels when we're born, uh, but might uh require some for some assistance from outside ourselves. Uh are you still uh as ever a a believer in original sin?
SPEAKER_02Well, I have to say, I hadn't at the time, you'll remember, I just set it as a as an aside on Twitter. It was no big deal as far as I was concerned. I thought everybody understood original sin. It just seems pretty obvious to me. Anyone who's ever met a child should know that clearly um we have to teach children how to be good. Otherwise, they won't know how. Um, but apparently people don't realize this, which is why it created such a storm. But yes, I'm obviously of the same point of view.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I went and saw Inside Out 2 over the weekend. And to begin with, I was about to groan because uh if people don't know the conceit of Inside Out, it's about the internal emotions that are having a conversation about Riley, uh, who is the protagonist. And to begin with, Joy is in charge of Riley until she goes through puberty, and then all of a sudden, anxiety takes hold of Riley. Oh, and it's very interesting. But to begin with, Joy builds uh a sense of self for Riley that is based on I am a good person. And to begin with, I was watching this Pixar animation, and I just thought, oh, is this gonna be another Disney kind of theology where okay, we just need to awaken the princess within and just just release the the beautiful, pristine, pure human being that you are out onto the world. And actually, it does a real flip. And it turns out that that Joy was actually burying a lot of the dark side of Riley and not able to integrate that into who Riley truly is, and the film ends up actually questioning that initial idea, I am a good person, and it ends up saying that actually I'm a really mixed bag and I need people from outside myself, and we all need help, don't we? Which I thought actually ended up in in quite a in quite a Christian um in quite a Christian position, actually. As an educationalist, why is it important to believe in something like original sin, would you say?
SPEAKER_02Well, because it's true. I mean, like that's the first thing. Um, you know, you put two toddlers together uh and one toy, they're going to hit each other over it. That's what happens. What they don't do is say, Oh, let me share this toy. You have it for ten minutes, and then I'll take it for ten minutes. You have to teach them how to do that. Um and eventually when you do teach to them over and over and over again over years, it then becomes habitual for them. Uh and they become good people. Uh now that doesn't mean that they're not worthy of love or of respect. Um they're naughty. That's what children do. They they try and get away with things. Um, like that's what makes them really cute and lovable, you know? But the thing is, our role as adults is to show them the way and to bring those boundaries in so that they don't hurt themselves and don't hurt other people, and so that they grow up into somebody who is going to become um uh uh as good a person as you can be on a daily basis. So what I mean is no one is perfect, we all have issues that we're dealing with and trying to get better, but that's the point of life. You're developing, you're growing, you're learning, and as a child, all the more so when you're very little, because you don't understand that if you if you don't get your way, you don't just punch somebody. You know, normally adults don't do that. Now, there are a few out there who do, but most of them don't, and that's because their parents brought them up in such a way to teach them not to punch people when they don't get their way. And um, this is necessary because uh I you know, there are other things that we struggle with. I struggle with going to the gym as regularly as I should. I'd far prefer to sit down and eat a brownie than eat broccoli. Um, and frankly, if my parents and you know, if I hadn't read lots about um uh nutrition and what we should and should eat and shouldn't eat, I would eat chocolate all day. I mean, it's really good. So it's only by uh learning um uh uh building up knowledge about stuff, but also developing a moral core and combining that knowledge with the moral core that you develop, that you're able to live as successful a life as you can. Your life is never going to be perfect because we're human and we make mistakes, but we use what we learn as we go along to be as good as we can be. And though that virtuous life is very difficult to try and attain, I have a quote in my office here by Roger Scruton who says, I'll read it to you. Aristotle's view was that there are virtues and that there are vices, and that virtues are indicative of a successful life or living in harmony with oneself, and I think that's really key. What is it? What is human flourishing? What is it to live in harmony with oneself? He says, we need to cultivate those virtues so as not to be at odds with ourselves so as to be able to flourish. But children don't understand this, and you can only acquire virtues if you acquire the habits that are involved in them. So that's the thing when I say over years, you're teaching them, nope, that's a detention. No, that's a detention. Oh, that's a merit. No, that's a demerit. No, that's a merit, merit. And they they learn over time to regulate themselves. And um, you must do this first by imitation. So you also have to model the good behavior so they know what to copy. Um, even if you don't initially know the reason you are doing it, and that's so important because kids don't understand. You can't sit down with a six-year-old and explain to him the philosophical reasons for life. You know, I was talking to a child the other day and he was taking a music exam and he was really annoyed about having to do his piano and so on. And I said, look, one day you're going to be in a bar with your friends, and you're gonna be 22, and they're gonna say, Let's sing a song, and you're gonna get down at the piano and you're gonna be able to play, and everybody's gonna sing, and it's gonna be wonderful. But the thing is, you don't know what a bar looks like and what your friends look like and what it's like to be 22, but I know, because I've been there. So you just have to trust me. What you're doing right now is gonna pay off later, but you just need to believe because if you base everything off what you know now as a 13-year-old, you're not going to be able to do that when you're 22. So um, even if you don't know the reason you're doing it, you build up initiative, he says. You build up purity of heart, you build up a sense of justice by encouraging children to imitate before they know why. Now I gave you an example of piano playing, but that's also the case when it comes to virtuous behavior. Then gradually, as it becomes second nature to them, as it becomes second nature, then they understand that indeed there is a reason for it. But children can't understand those reasons. And I think that adults often uh overestimate the expertise in children, both in terms of knowledge and with regard to morality. And they think that they can reason their way into these things and just explain it to the child. You can't. You need to model it, you need to bring that fence in, you need to create systems around them where you should explain it. Like you say, you should say it's wrong to hit your brother, that's unkind. And then when you know uh the boy looks after his brother, you say, That's kind. Here's an example of kindness, here's an example of unkindness, over and over and over again until eventually it becomes their habit. But you know, I I've been doing this all my life with children. I feel I know them very well. Um I think a lot of us nowadays just want to be friends with our kids as parents and also as teachers. And we don't we think somehow that it's mean to say that they were born bad. Now, to say born bad, I mean, look, obviously they're beautiful, they're wonderful, we love children, but they're also very naughty. And that's where the original sin uh aspect of it all, I think, is so great in explaining what children need from us. Because if they're just if they're born good, well then what do they need us for? You know, I mean they'll be fine.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting that actually actually the Bible begins in, you know, Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 is humanity, you know, made in God's image and incredibly loved and blessed and put in a position of honor. And then in chapter 3, there is a fall, and they fall from that original goodness. And so actually the Bible doesn't begin with, okay, the you know, people are as bad as bad can be, and children are not little monsters. They are absolutely, as you say, to be loved. But what's helpful is if I expect my children to be naughty, I I can receive that with a bit of a wry smile and think to myself, okay, I can expect this. This this is of the nature of all of us. We're all fallen in this way, and and it doesn't take me by surprise. And I don't get outraged when the child lies or is envious or fights.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. So what I always say is, they're kids. That's what kids do. And uh you also understand your role. That's the thing. When you know that they're naughty, you know your role is to help them be less naughty, and you teach them over time, and you're not devastated when they're naughty because you think kids are kids and that's how it is, and you love them for it, and then you help to develop them both morally and in terms of knowledge and skills that they need to have a successful life, and to be happy, you know. The without all of that coming from their parents and their teachers, they'll be very unhappy people. Um, and so yeah, for me it's it's pretty obvious, and it gives us a sense of our duty towards children in teaching them. And I, you know, you say, well, if you expect that, then it'll be okay. Look, uh expect it because it's definitely gonna happen. Like I there is no such thing as a child who isn't naughty, right? I'm not saying they're naughty all the time. Obviously, some children are more naughty than other children, and some children are really good most of the time, but then at other times they they can be naughty. That's fine. The fact is, the more habit formation and moral formation you give that child, the less and less naughty they will be. But even if you do the a great job with them on that level, they'll still be naughty. It is still the case, even at my grand old age, that I skip the gym. It is still the case that I eat too much chocolate. You know, I it stays with us forever, but I'm much better thanks to the upbringing that my parents gave me, that my teachers gave me, and so on. If they'd just left me to my own devices, I would have been a total disaster.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. As with all of us. Um so Comrade Kinch on Twitter has asked a great question. He says, What three things can parents do to help their children succeed? If that's our vision of children and we want to build these habits into them, what are things that parents can do?
SPEAKER_02So, one, model the behavior that you want that to them to see. So don't be on your phone, don't watch TV in front of them, don't be on screens. Uh, I'm not saying don't watch TV at all. Put them to bed and then watch TV. Just like think of it as smoking. You know, you wouldn't smoke a cigarette in front of your child, so don't do any of this other stuff either. Don't give them a smartphone or an iPad, uh, like until they're 16. And I'm being very serious about that. That sounds like I'm being an extremist. I promise you I'm not. And I promise you that in 50 years it will be considered normal not to give your child a smartphone or an iPad until the age of 16, because by then it will have become it will have become common knowledge that children should not be on these things below that age because it breaks your brain, all sorts of studies demonstrate this, and it also destroys your mental health. Sorry, those are our pips when they go off at school for a change of lesson time. And um, and so it's just so important that you not give your child a smartphone or an iPad. Uh, you need to read with them daily. So I would say from when they're one year old, I mean you could even start before that, you are reading with them daily. Uh I'd say at least 15 minutes, but you can do it for longer. And certainly as they get older, maybe half an hour. Uh people tend to think one bedtime story is enough. I don't think it is. I mean, obviously, your your child will be okay, but you would be much better off doing at least 15 minutes to half an hour. Um, because it means that they come to love reading. And you talk about the pictures. You don't just read the words. Put your finger underneath the words as you're reading them so that they know that you're reading, you're not just talking. And then you can also talk about, ask them what they think of this character and that character and so on. Have a discussion about the book. And then keep reading the same books over and over. Don't think, oh, I've read that book, it's done. Actually, what you want to do, especially if you have a book that rhymes, Julia Donaldson's books are brilliant for this. Buy her earlier books rather than her more recent books. I understand her more recent books have become quite woke. Um, her older books are just absolutely fantastic, and then like the graffalo and so on, and you read and you read it with all kinds of you know, emotion and and and theatre, uh, you know, and and and what happens is that the child will then start finishing off your sentences, and eventually they will be able to read the book back to you. And again, you don't think, well, they know this book by heart, I don't need to read it. No, that's precisely when you want to read it more and more. Because they love the poetry and the rhyming and the pictures and so on. And it gets them to immerse themselves in books. And then if you kept them away from screens, a book cannot compete with a screen. A book is black and white and flat. A screen, all kinds of pop-ups, colors, you they just can't compete. If they don't have the screens, then the only way in which they can find entertainment is through the that that book. And so they're gonna go to those books over and over again, surround them by books, go to the charity shops, buy up all the books. They cost 50p, you know, like, or 20p. I mean, they really are so cheap. So get all those books, surround them by books, and then allow them to then eventually they will just read on their own. Sometimes they'll pretend that they're reading. Well, that's great. They just sit there with the book and they look at the pictures and they turn them. It's just fantastic. So, though that that anti-screen loads of books, modeling the behavior yourself. Do not be on your phone around them. Look, much later on in life, when they're great readers and you know, they they sit with their books and read on their own, you can go on your phone. By then you've already shown them the way, so it's okay. But for those first five years, I'd say, definitely no screens, definitely no TV. Um just do it when they go to sleep. Uh now, other things, uh do extra stuff with them, like maths and um uh English. So when I say maths, I don't mean you're necessarily sitting down and doing a lesson with them. I mean you're walking along the street and you count the cars. And you say, shall we count the cars together? Look. One, two, three, oh, the fourth one is red, five, six, seven, oh, the eighth one is blue, eight, nine, ten. Shall we do that again? One, two, three, do it to ten, then you do it to twenty, then you do it to thirty, and so on. Now, eventually you'll then start counting by twos and start counting by threes and so on. The P's on the plate, anything that can be counted, you're counting all the time. Now, when they're older, that's when you're going to be doing your times tables. For a while, you've been counting by twos, threes, and fours for like a year. Because then when you do the times tables, it's much easier because you can build on the fact that you've been counting with them by twos and threes and fours. Because it takes years to learn times tables. Now, if you do all of this, now the reading, of course, you're reading loads and loads. When they're young, reading and maths. Those are the two things. You do push the reading and the maths. Now, if you're really into it, you can start an instrument. You can start an instrument when they're four years old, five years old. Suzuki, S-U-Z-U-K-I, Dr. Suzuki, Japanese. He created this whole system for learning music, which is amazing. And you can start them off really young. If that's too much, because Suzuki is very demanding of parents, you may at about five or six years old then want to start them off. You could start them off at their uh primary school. You maybe try and get a lesson through their peripatetic system of uh teaching. If they don't have that, you can do, you know, you can hire somebody and get them doing that. Why do we learn music? Lots of reasons. Obviously, there's the beauty of music and being able to play. And I was saying about when you're 22, you'll be able to play the piano in the pub and all of that. But um, it's also because I tell you what's amazing about music learning is that you look at a a sheet, uh uh, a piece of music, and you look at it and you think, well, I don't know how to play that. It's impossible. And then you start working on it, and then over time you break it down, you break it, you break down that bar 13, break down that bar 20, and you practice and you practice, and then eventually you can play the whole thing. And what it teaches you over time is that nothing is impossible. You at first it looks impossible, but then you work at it and you break it down, and then you build it back up, and you can do it. And that applies, that can is transferable across any subject, that that idea of commitment towards something and breaking it down. So that is why I'd say music. Anyway, go on.
SPEAKER_01I know I love I love that. A common theme in all that advice is the value of repetition, of discipline, of habit formation. Um what what are we like such that that is what really transforms?
SPEAKER_02What do you mean, what are we like?
SPEAKER_01What are human beings like such that that is what really transforms? And I guess and I'd also like you to be in conversation with um there are other uh theories of education that are much more into ex exploration and much more into, you know, children are much more creative than we are. You show them different shapes, and they can they can tell you like a hundred different things that that shape might be. And the older we get, we seem to kind of get in a rut. And so the wonderful thing about kids is they are free-floating and um expansive in their vision. Whereas you can you seem to talk about kind of habit formation. Um tell you know, and and some sometimes people say, you know, education is not filling a bucket, it's lighting a fire. Um so bring those two things into conversation. How how can we be into this discipline and this rigor, but also create creative people?
SPEAKER_02Yes. So I think uh people misunderstand what makes somebody into it but what makes somebody creative uh uh or an out-of-the-box thinker. You need lots of knowledge in order to be an out-of-the-box thinker. So take me as an example. If you gave me a car and said, Okay, can you um create a new type of car that will save money on petrol or a different type of electric car or whatever, I wouldn't have a clue how to do it because I don't know anything about cars. I have, however, turned education on its head. Um we get we've had over the last 10 years over 7,000 visitors to the school. Um people uh we have influenced the narrative of education in this country in a huge way because we do things differently. The only reason why that's the case is because I know education inside out. So you have to have knowledge of the thing and lots of knowledge. And I think uh teachers and uh parents often overestimate how much knowledge a child has. It's simply not true if you put three shapes in front of a child and say which one's the triangle, that they're going to be able to tell you unless they've heard it before from someone else. Like that there's no way. Like how it's not inside them. Rousseau gave us this idea that we're trying to draw this out of the child. We're not trying to draw it out of the child unless it's already been put there. So it's true if you've already told them which one's the triangle, then you can try and remind them. Well, not remind them, but you're prompting them to remember what that is. And that is retrieval practice. That's all that is. So they already know circle, square, triangle. You say to them, what shape is this? And they retrieve it from their memory and they say, That's a triangle. Brilliant. You are practicing retrieval practice there, and the more you say triangle, square, triangle. Circle, triangle, square, etc. The more you're doing that, the more you're retrieving it from your memory, the more likely you are to remember it. Because you are training your memory to keep that information. That again is habit formation. Now, what happens, I can I can tell you, is that you what happens to people, to teachers, is that they say, which one's the triangle? And little Amy at the front says, It's that one. And the teacher thinks, My goodness, I've inspired them. They're so creative. This is amazing. When actually, it's just that little Amy has parents at home who taught her the difference between those shapes. So she comes to school and she shows off the knowledge that her parents gave her. If children know something and you haven't taught it to them, someone else did. It's as simple as that, right? So the spark that you're saying that we need to inspire them, we need to ignite a spark. The spark is ignited by giving them the knowledge. That's how it's ignited. The more knowledge you have about something, the more interested you're going to get at it. Because, well, you know more about it, right? And then you go, well, I'd like to know a bit more, and then I'd like to know a bit more. And then you go down a rabbit hole and you you you you start talking about it all the time because you know a lot about it. If you don't know anything about it, then well, you're never going to ask about it. You're never going to be interested about it. So the creatives uh who want children to think for themselves, who want um independent learning and creativity, they don't understand that what they're doing is preventing children from being creative. And it's our traditional ways of habit formation, giving them lots of knowledge, getting them to retrieve it in many different ways, getting them to apply it in many different ways, that is how you spark creativity. Um so uh it's not that the progressive and the traditionalist both want the same thing. It's just that the traditionalist gets it. And you can find that anywhere, like from Shakespeare to Newton to Mandela. It doesn't matter. They all had traditional educations, you know. Uh Newton is inventing calculus. Uh uh Shakespeare, obviously, super creative, but interestingly, was modeled all his plays on previous uh ideas. Stole names, stole characters, stole all kinds of things from other people. Now, that's not because he was bad. That's what it is to be creative, to take stuff that's already there and make it different and better, right? Um I didn't create the classroom, I didn't create desks and chairs and the concept of the teacher standing in the front of the room. All of that it was already there for me. But what I did was I took um a model of something which I've copied from elsewhere, and then I've put a bit of spark on it this way, changed a little bit in that way, and done something different. That's what creativity is. So um, but if I didn't know all that other stuff, then I wouldn't be able to do it. Just like I have no idea what the bait what a basic car looks like, what an expensive car looks like. I I and so I wouldn't know where to start. So that is what I would say to people, that it there's just a fundamental misunderstanding. And I think that's based in a fundamental misunderstanding of what we call expert-induced blindness. So the expert, the adult, looks to the child and thinks that he just knows a lot more than he does. And they've forgotten what it's like to be five years old. And so they assume that the child has some understanding of what they're talking about. The child has no idea. Um, and that's why many times the child has to take what you're doing with them on trust, like the example I just gave you about the piano playing. They just need to trust that you know better than they do, and that's our duty as adults. And I do feel partly as well that we adults, um well, we don't the thing about um having this sense of duty and the the the honor that it is that you have, it's so such an honorable thing to look after a child and develop him and know that his well-being is in your hands. Now, it's it's a huge responsibility, and I think many of us are scared of that responsibility, and we'd rather just be friends with the children because that's easier for us, and we shy away from the sense of duty because it's scary, because we might get it wrong. Um but I would say, yes, we might get it wrong. In fact, we'll definitely get it wrong. We'll get it wrong a million times, but then you'll fix it and you'll do a bit a better job next time, and you yourself are developing in terms of your own, your your your own moral core, your own set of knowledge, and so on, just like your child is developing in that kind of way. And that's what makes life life. That's what it is to live, and to live a life that's worth living by growing and developing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. No, I love that. Um, you mentioned in there that uh you've had 7,000 visitors uh to Michaela Community School, and uh I was going to be one of them uh back in February. Um you were gonna get me back uh you you were gonna get me into the school in February to speak uh uh to a degree about my book, The Air We Breathe, which I think somebody lent to you and you and you read my book, The Air We Breathe. Yes. About how certain values that we take as natural and obvious and universal have Christian roots. It's kind of uh very much the Tom Holland thesis and that kind of thing. Um we'll we'll talk about why that didn't happen in a second, but um because I'm gonna go back in in November, so it'd be great to know um w what was it that made you want me to come and speak to your stuff and and what is it that you want me to say in November?
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, I'm well aware of the fact that the values that we have here at the school come from a Christ Christian, you know, Judeo tradition. And that while I'm not a Christian, um and that that we're certainly not a Christian school, uh we are immersed in a Christian Judeo culture in this country because that's our history. And certain things that seem obvious to me, like our conversation just now about original sin, I've come to realize are not very obvious to many people. And I suppose that's because we have disconnected ourselves quite a lot from Christianity over the years. And that when I was growing up, I mean, look, I grew up in a Christian family. I went to church and so on, and then when I was about 12, I said, I'm not doing this anymore. Um, and um, I stopped going to church. I think lots of 12-year-olds probably do that. And um and and that's because I was 12. I mean, what I mean is uh children don't understand the point of these things, and it's you know, it's very difficult to explain it to them. Just like I was saying about the piano, you know, they don't know what life is going to bring and they don't know how important things are. Now, um I am not a Christian, uh, and partly now I sort of think, oh, when I retire and I have time to read about all the different religions, I can then make that decision. Um, but I I certainly do recognize that I owe my value system to that uh Judeo-Christian um historical legacy that exists in our country. And I am aware of Tom Holland and of you uh who argue, and you're not the only ones, um I have one of my deputies here who very strongly argues that um that look, you you can't do all these values that you have, Catherine, without the Christian bit. You need to have the Christian bit. Otherwise, how do you know what's good? Where is that judgment coming from? Um and it's true that I can't really answer that. So I thought I I read that your book and I agreed with everything you were saying, and I thought, well, you know what? I think it'd be really good for everyone to hear that from you. Um because uh uh I I think a lot of I think some of my staff recognize that our values are good, recognize that they work with children, that children are happier as a result, they're more successful as a result, both morally and uh academically, that they very much believe only all schools could be like Michaela, the country would be so much better off. But I I know that a number of them think that these values can be reached uh rationally, that they we can reason them through, and that we will come to these values uh through reason. And I I I don't think I think that they're they're wrong. I don't think you can. And I I'm not gonna be very good at arguing that though, because I'm not a Christian. So um I thought it'd be good for you to come in and you could talk about that. And um uh you would just you would make I want you, I suppose, to make us all, including me, a little bit more humble um and less likely to uh assume that we're just really clever. We're just clever and we know how to do these things because we're clever and we've reasoned that out. That actually, had I not had the upbringing that I had, that I might not think the way that I do, and that I'm taking it for granted. Um and that um perhaps some of my staff are taking for granted the historical legacy in the country, and they're presuming that reason has got us here, and that there have been many societies where reason has got them somewhere very different, um, both historically and nowadays as well, uh, where they don't necessarily love their their neighbor, where they don't um sacrifice uh for themselves for the betterment of the whole, um, where they don't understand the value of um of how we treat other people, that that very much is now, and I say that there will be other bits, no doubt, that are part of our values that I don't even I don't necessarily think about. They're just natural for me. And it's it I say they're natural. They're natural because I was brought up in that way. Uh and so I find it difficult to even think forgiveness, for instance, is something that um, you know, I naturally think one should forgive uh not just because it's right for the other person, but because it's right for you, that holding resentment is so uh it it weighs you down and makes life much more difficult. I naturally think that gratitude is a good thing because no matter how much the other person has, you'll always have more than somebody else. It will also make you a happier person. Now, where have I got all that stuff from? I mean, it seems natural to me. I I think about it, I think, well, this is just obvious, is what many of my staff would say, and no doubt I would have said once upon a time. But it it I've come to realize it's not obvious. I've come to realize by you know uh listening to Tom Holland or reading your book, for instance. I did try and read Dominion by Tom Holland, but it was so hard. I I gave up. Yours is like the easier version.
SPEAKER_01So it's Dominion for Dummies, and I'm the dummy, Catherine. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So, well, I think Dominion is for people like you who really understand this stuff, you know. So then the issue, what's so great about your book, uh is that it speaks to normal people who who don't really have a clue about this sort of thing, and they can read it and go, oh, I see, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So I just think you'd be great to have here. And I'm looking forward to your visit.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I'm very much looking forward to it as well. I think on that reason thing, it's it's important to say that I think every every system is reasonable within its own system. And that every but but every system also has these kind of foundational intuitions. And you take something like human rights and you say to yourself, you know, every single member of the human family, no matter how weak, no matter how economically unprofitable they are, no matter how infirm or aged they are, they are, you know, in in biblical terms, they're made in God's image, but in secular terms, they have this inviolable worth and dignity, this these human rights. And in a sense, I can't really reason you into that position. I can't, you know, the there's there's no scientific experiment that I can do. And in fact, if I did a scientific experiment, it would probably be um struck off by by the ethics uh committee because I would have to have one society that honors human rights and another society that doesn't honor human rights. And then we we would have to measure them by some kind of metric. And and actually, so so human rights in a sense is not reasonable. It's it's more an intuition, it's more a faith position. But from that faith position, you can build up some very, you know, reasonable beliefs about how a society should be run and and what the nature of of humanity truly is. But I would say, yeah, at the end of the day, it's about looking into the face of some somebody who is not who society might think is um unprofitable and saying, no, you you have a worth that comes from outside yourself that is and and at that stage, I guess you call that faith. And and Tom Holland would say, you know, I'm I'm happy to take that leap of faith. Interestingly, some other kind of nihilists would would say, okay, I'm happy not to take the leap of faith, and I'm happy just to say a person is only worth what they can contribute to society. And at that stage, I would say that's quite a dystopian vision. Hence you know, come come to church. Hence, you know, open up the Bible, hence consider Christian faith as a way of grounding um the intuitions that I think most people actually actually have. That's that's kind of the argument anyway.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, and that's where when you come, you see, because people like me instinctively think, but we're I'm not a nihilist, but I just don't necessarily believe in God. I mean, I feel like if you're an atheist, then you are definitely rejecting God. But I feel like there's this middle ground of, well, I'm an agnostic, he might exist. Um, I've nothing against him, um, I have lots of respect for Christians. I'm just not I I find it hard to believe in all the supernatural stuff of raising from the rising from the dead and all of that sort of thing. That's just all a bit weird. Um But that, you know, uh life on earth is more than what you just said the nihilists would think, what you you know, but but that there's so much to be had for your time on earth.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And why, you know, we want to be all the things I just spoke about, about trying to be as good as you can, contributing in some kind of way. Um now what happens after you die, I don't know. I'm not saying we're definitely finished. Maybe we do go on to something else. Um I don't know. I mean, uh I sort of kind of go, I don't know. Yeah. Which is why you say it's a leap of faith. And you're right, it does take a leap of faith.
SPEAKER_01And but what I would say is that you've already taken a leap of faith if you believe in something like human rights. And so what I'm trying to do with very secular people is just try to say you might think that it's Christians and people of other faiths who are exercising this muscle that that you don't have, or or you know, they they've they've got the force like from Star Wars and you don't have the force, or um but actually that everybody is exercising that kind of a muscle. Everybody is is constantly looking at things that are natural and giving them supernatural value, such as, you know, persons. You know, human human persons are these things that you know you could boil down my body and you could probably get as much for it as it would cost to get a big Mac meal, right? Is that what my worth is? But as soon as you look at me and say, No, you're worth something far beyond what you can contribute to society or what your organs are worth on the black markets, you are worth so much you're you're putting a a value that is supernatural. And I guess I'm just wanting to pull at that thread and and to say, you know, you might not think you believe in the supernatural, but if you believe in compassion and equality and human rights, you're already in that realm. Um that, you know, from a secular point of view, you mentioned about sort of rising from the dead. You know, I guess the the entirely secular story about where humans have come from is that all life has emerged from non-life. Which I think is an extraordinary thing to have happened if there is not uh, you know, someone to work that miracle, someone to bring life from the dead. And in a sense, the the Christian sort of says, Yeah, I think on Easter Sunday, um I have no idea how it happened, but I think on Easter Sunday God brought Jesus back from the dead, because I think he's that kind of a per I think I think he's the sort of person who's bigger than death. And we can go into why Christians think that. But a Christian thinks, okay, that life definitely emerged from the dead. But a Christian is here to say, you know, but the secular the secular story says all life emerged from non-life. Um and if that's if that's happened without a God of resurrection to work the miracle, that that becomes an even more miraculous view of the world. And so it's not that we're trying to invite people into um a more miraculous or more weird kind of view of the world. It's actually sort of let's pay attention to just how strange this world really is and how the Christian spectacles actually make sense of it. That sort of thing.
SPEAKER_02Well, you see, that's why I wanted you to come and speak of myself. Because I knew you'd be able to say stuff like that. I can say that. And it'll be interesting because I'll be able to have a conversation with you about this sort of stuff. Yeah. And I would be representing the views of many of my staff, I think. Yes, I think. And you will be representing the views of Christians.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And you know, we can have a bit of a not a debate, but me just sort of asking, explain this, explain that. And you will say things like what you just said, and I think you'll give us lots of food for thought. So it'll be really interesting to have you.
SPEAKER_01I'm looking forward to it. So that was gonna happen in February, but February was very busy for you, Catherine. You were you were in in court and uh the the school itself, I guess, was was taken to court. Um can you explain um a little bit from your perspective what what happened?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, uh gosh, I mean I'm so pleased it's over now. But um we were taken to court by uh people and her mother um for not having a prayer room. And they wanted a prayer room. They say a prayer room, but the fact is more than 50% of our children are Muslim. Uh, so it would mean having several prayer rooms in order to uh enable them to have prayer rituals, you know, because prayer for a Christian, that's in your head, it's quite easy. People can pray whenever they want. Uh, prayer for a Muslim require requires five, six, seven minutes of an actual ritual, which requires being on the ground, it requires a mat, it requires washing your hands and feet beforehand. It's a whole big thing. Anyway, uh and people sort of say, well, what's what's the difference? She just wants five minutes at lunch to pray. And you know what? If it was just her, it wouldn't matter because she could go off somewhere in a room and pray and come back. That would be fine. But it is actually more than half the children. And that would mean completely changing our ethos as a school. We have a family lunch where all the children eat together and then move in silence in the corridors to go outside, and the kids who haven't eaten because the building is such that uh we have very restricted corridor space and restricted eating space. The children who are outside then come in. Um we we we have a very intricate um system of organized system to make sure that the children move around both in silence and and why do you say, well, why we're in silence? We're the strictest school in Britain, that's what we do. Uh it's one of the reasons why we get such great results, and one of the reasons why uh so many teachers come to visit us, uh, because we do an excellent job at holding our behavior just where we want it. Uh if we had done what she'd asked, we'd have to open up several classrooms. Uh, children would be able to wander in and out of them, the children would no longer be able to leave their bags and coats in the classrooms, they would have to carry them around with them. Frankly, we would have been turned into a normal school. And all of the systems and structures that we've got in place would have to have been torn down. So when people say, oh, it's only five minutes, it's not only five minutes, it's a complete destruction of what the school is, and the it would be a complete destruction of the success of the school. People often think, well, oh, well, it's only uh five minutes of prayer. It would it would be the same. No, it wouldn't. Michaela is Michaela thanks to the fact that we have our behavior systems. If prayer forces us to abandon our behavior systems, that means Michaela with prayer is no longer a Michaela school that gets uh the best progress eight results in the country, that um has 7,000 visitors, that does the great job with the kids that we've got. So that's just on a physical level for the building. But there's also um a moral level where we very much believe in all of the children uh participating in self-sacrifice so that uh the whole of the school can benefit. So the Muslims in this case, for instance, give up having lunchtime prayers if they would like it. You know, there's obviously lots of Muslims who don't want lunchtime prayers. Um but if you do, you sacrifice that for the betterment of the whole. Because you know the school is better off without prayer, and so you don't just say, these are my rights, this is what I want, give me what I want. Similarly, we've had Hindu families who have complained about uh the plates that we all use in the dining hall. The eggs have touched the plates, therefore they're not happy with using the same plates, and the Hindus should eat separately. Well, we don't divide the children according to race and religion. Similarly, with the Muslim kids, we're not going to put them all in a room so that they can pray and leave them there. I mean, because that would be one possible option in trying to have a Prayer room, but I'm not going to divide children according to race and religion. And so the Hindus sacrifice the point about the plates and they put up with it. The Jehovah's Witnesses, we um do a GCSE set text of Christmas Carol and of Macbeth. Obviously, there's Christmas in one, there's witches and magic in the other. The Jehovah's Witnesses just put up with it and sacrifice their desire for what they want and their rights for the betterment of the whole. So all children here and all the races and all the religions sacrifice in order to ensure that our multicultural community can succeed. And so that is so important for the socialization of children in a multicultural society, country. I think that there is a lot of truth with those who are more conservative who will suggest that multiculturalism has failed, because in many areas it has failed, where you go to schools and you can see children totally divided according to racial and religious divides. The Hindus are there, the Muslims are there, the blacks are over here, the whites are over there, and so on. At our school, the children are friends across racial and religious divides, precisely because of the culture that we have insisted upon. So that would have been something else that would have changed had she won her case. And frankly, I would have resigned. I mean, there's no way that I'm going to run a school which divides children according to race and religion. There is no way that I'm going to run a school which di engenders division, uh, encourages children to dislike each other. That I will never do that. So it was extremely important, obviously, that we win because uh well, not only would Michaela not have been Michaela anymore, but I and possibly other staff would have resigned, and that would have been the end of our school. And um the she didn't understand that she's a child, but I do feel like she was being used by people who are older than her. And uh in order to get what their rights are, you know, and in order to get their rights, they then accuse you of Islamophobia. Um and other uh, you know, I'd say relatively naive people who are not Muslim, jump on that bandwagon and insist on uh attacking you. But it's not just um uh non-Muslims who would that do that, Christians would do that. I found a number of Christians would attack us and say, you're banning prayer, how dare you? They're like, well, you know what? In order to have those Christian values that we talk about and we we we support, like self-sacrifice, uh that's something that someone who's Christian should understand. Uh someone who's Christian should understand uh a multicultural community wanting to succeed and should not support division and should not support children in just demanding their rights. That they should understand the idea of responsibility over rights, you know? So uh it was particularly disappointing when I would hear from Christians who would behave like that, because um, well, I don't think it's a very Christian way of being.
SPEAKER_01So you you you mentioned rights. I I guess that that would have taken up uh the a large part of the the court case in terms of the European Convention of Human Rights, that you know, Article 9 is about freedom of thought and religion and practice or f freedom of thought, belief, and religion. Um how how do you go about honoring freedom of religion at Michaela? Like would they have been able to pray outside during lunch?
SPEAKER_02No, so there's no there the the reason why that we allowed that to begin with, and then there was demand from people outside, they need to have a prayer room. This is outrageous. So we got death threats. We got I mean, we now have a full-time security guard to protect us because precisely because we allowed prayer in the art, right? Um because that's not enough. We then want more, and we want more. Give us give us our rights. That whole um s mentality of demanding rights is wrong. And why did we win the case? We won the case because she could have chosen another school. Literally any other secondary school in Brent, you could choose, and they have a prayer room. There are also Islamic schools that she could have chosen. So the judge rightly saw that our human rights were not being breached because that's the whole point about our society. We have different types of schools, and you can choose whichever school you want to go to. Similarly, there are families, for instance, who do not want silent corridors, then don't choose Michaela. There are families that want a really great sports offer. Sadly, because we don't have any grass or trees and we don't have a sports hole, our sports offer is rather limited. So if you want a great sports offer, you have to go to another school. Similarly, if prayer is that important to you, or if not reading Macbeth is that important to you, then you should go to another school. What I often find shocking is that look, I don't mind if you're arguing for prayer, but then you had better also argue for us to ban Macbeth across the country and to br ban a Christmas carol, because that offends uh Jehovah's Witnesses as much as it offends Muslims for not having a prayer room. So, uh, you know, I'm fine, just be consistent. Demand that a Christmas carol be banned across the school, not just our school, across the country. Macbeth, similarly, should not be a GCSE text. So if that's the case at lunchtime, we need to divide all the children according to race and religion, because the Hindus will not use the same plates. Well, fine. If that's what we want, if that's what we want as a society, we can divide everybody according to race and religion. And frankly, that is what many schools are currently doing, right? And that I'm happy with that, as long as the people who are arguing for it understand what they are arguing for. But don't pretend that we're all going to live in harmony and demand the rights of uh this is my right, that's my right, and I'm never going to sacrifice in order for the success of the school or the success of the country. We need to be honest, and I think far too many people are very dishonest when it comes to this, and they're not willing to get the to get informed. So I've heard Christian commentators, you know, famous ones talking about us and saying that what happened, well, they don't even know. And they just make stuff up. They just say all sorts of nonsense. And it does upset me a lot, the dishonesty, because um it's that dishonesty that means that our country at the moment is so divided, is so disrupted. Um, and that's because people are not thinking of the country as a whole. People are thinking only about themselves. And for your podcast, I think that's very unchristian.
SPEAKER_01So if if a Christian revival broke out at Michaela School, or at least like three three kids in the playground decide to pray with one another at lunchtime, and they even finish it off with singing a rousing version of Amazing Grace. Um, have have they done anything wrong? Would you would you would you be against that?
SPEAKER_02Well, yes, because it would only be fair to the Muslims for that to be the case. If it were the case that people saw those Christians doing that from outside the gate and they threatened our lives, um, I mean, surely people understand that it's my duty to protect uh the lives of the children and the staff here. The the racial abuse that one of my staff received um because of what I mean, calling her all kinds, the N-word monkey. I mean, you cannot imagine the things that she was called. Uh, is that what we should do? If if that behavior of the children inspired that kind of behavior from outsiders, would we say, no, they should be allowed to sing Amazing Grace no matter what? And we don't care what kind of abuse your your teachers are ha have to undergo. I mean, that is selfishness on a level that I just don't understand. She she she nearly had a breakdown, you know. Um it's only because we stood up to this bullying that we have been able to survive. So uh if it's the case that Christians or Muslims or anyone is demanding that we should live in total fear for our lives, no, I'm not uh we're not paid enough, right? That's ridiculous. I mean, and it's just and it's it's horrifying, frankly, that that is where we've come to as a society, where we think that my teachers should have to tolerate that kind of those kinds of threats and that kind of that kind of fear. It's it's not right. And and I I'm surprised that there are Christians who would be arguing for that.
SPEAKER_01I think one thing this highlights is that there are different ideas and conceptions of secularism. I think the secular is kind of a thing that Augustine kind of gifted to the world and through the church, and theologically he thought about that in in a very Christian sense. And then there's a kind of a a more secular secularism, there's a a more kind of agnostic secularism. And then you get a quite anti-religious secularism, which perhaps some sometimes in France uh they can be guilty of that kind of laicete that says let's blam ban all the hijabs and that kind of thing. And you're not into that. You're not you're not banning hijabs, you're not you're not banning any kind of outward adornments of your religion.
SPEAKER_02Well, we're not banning anything that doesn't jeopardize our school. So originally we thought prayer in the art would be fine. Then it turns out that it wasn't. So we had to ban it. You know, uh anything that we do, so uh our our our lunchtime is a great example. When we first started, we we gave children meat to eat. And then we realized some children eat meat but no pork, some children eat meat but no beef. And when we had to divide the the because it's a family lunch, so they all serve the same food to each other. So we had to divide them all up. And it meant the Hindus were over there, the Muslims were over there. Everybody was divided according to race and religion. And then I thought, well, we can't possibly divide the children according to race and religion. We want there to be friends across racial and religious divides. So we went vegetarian. So we've banned meat, right? Now, we didn't ban meat to begin with, we didn't ban prayer to begin with, but those two things, amongst many other things that we don't allow, have demonstrated those two things uh undermine what we are as a school, undermine our ethos of us breaking bread across religious and racial divides. So given that that is uh our ethos, we and we believe that it's good for our children to embrace that ethos, uh, we have banned those things. And running the school has taught us that's the case. Um so yeah, it's there's not we have no issues with religion. I have huge respect for religion. Um I've said to you, you know, when I'm retired and have more time, I will look at all of the world's religions and I will decide, oh, that makes sense, that doesn't make sense, etc. I would feel bad choosing one religion over another religion.
SPEAKER_01Or in November. In November, Catherine. That that'll be the time when you can when you can properly receive Christianity.
SPEAKER_02Maybe in November. But, you know, I have to say, my experience with uh Christians um over this issue has made me question Christianity. It does. You know, because I'm just like, how can you possibly be thinking this? Just like it has me Christian questioning Islam, you know, because obviously I look at these people who are accusing us and I just think, where is your decency? You know? Um and uh, you know, that's where now maybe these are just misguided Christians, maybe these are just misinformed Christians. Um I don't know. I mean, and it'd be great to have when you come, you can tell us more about your position on all of this prayer stuff. Um, but it does make me question Christianity because I just don't understand why some Christians, I have to say, other Christians have written to us and have been very kind and supportive and so on, but um some of them have not been. And I just don't think that's very Christian. But who am I to know? I mean, you know, your your viewers might be quite right in saying, but yeah, but Catherine, you're not a Christian, you don't know what's Christian, and fuck, it's true, I don't know. So uh I I I will take that slap and say, look, you guys know better than I do, but um it does seem very unchristian to me.
SPEAKER_01That self-slap was very Christian, so um I must I must let you go, um Catherine, but can I just ask you one one more question? Um I've got a lot of people on Twitter saying, how do we see the Michaela thing scale and go across, you know, for further schools across the country? Is there is there a chance for that? And if there's not what's standing in the way?
SPEAKER_02Everybody's standing in the way, I'm afraid. Um unfortunately, our values and our behavior systems and our teaching methods, uh, I'd say most people reject them. Um as you can see, you know, there have been a number of people who have fought us on the prayer issue, for instance, but it's also the case that um simply standing at the front, being an authority in the classroom, the adults leading the learning, all the stuff we spoke about before, uh people tend to reject because they think that we should be on a par with children. People love equality, and they think it's wrong to think of ourselves as being uh in charge of children, we should all be equal. Um they there's a lot of people loving freedom. They think children should just be free to do whatever they want. I think we need to restrict their freedom massively so that later on in life they can be truly free. Um these ideas are really quite radical and almost offensive to some people nowadays. Uh the behavior systems where I'm the strictest headmistress and all of that. Um people don't like, uh they don't even like detentions nowadays. Um it's become, it's got, I feel it's got to the point of absurdity. You know, ten years ago when we started the school, things were nowhere near as hard to fight for as they are now. Um so it's hard enough finding staff to get into this school. I then have to teach uh the teachers how to think differently and how to perhaps develop different values in order to hold the children to account, in order to teach with an air of authority and so on. Um so there's that, but then there's just the um practical things. We tried to open a primary school, we were blocked. We tried to open a secondary school because of COVID and various issues, but certainly, you know, not a lot of help from government. Um, that did not happen. Uh, we tried to set up a leadership group for uh other leaders in education to learn from what we do, that was blocked. I mean, the idea of expanding, that's never gonna happen, right? I I've come to terms with that. I tried many times over and over again. It we will never expand. The worry now is whether or not we as a school will even survive going into the future now.
SPEAKER_01So, what gives you hope? Let's let's finish on that. What gives you hope?
SPEAKER_02Well, there isn't very much at the moment. Um I've got to hope that things can be better. You know, I I my belief that um the school uh is obviously amazing. I'm preparing for war. That's what I'm preparing for, and I know it's going to be very hard. Um and I'm hoping that we'll s we'll survive. I don't know. I mean, honestly, I'm um one should always have a little hope, and you've got to keep fighting for what's right. But I do worry that um for the country, these are these are worrying times.
SPEAKER_01Well, you have invested in thousands of children, and uh yeah, we can we can see as the generations move out, um, that yeah, you you have invested in these precious lives uh that will go on and and have an impact in the world. And so uh we honor you for that, Catherine. You've just mentioned three values there freedom, equality, and compassion. I talk about obviously in the book, freedom, equality, compassion, and four other values as well. But there are Christian versions of those values and there are post-Christian versions of those values where freedom actually becomes all about my rights and not my responsibilities, where compassion becomes about a kind of a victim victimhood mentality where it's it's all about the oppression Olympics rather than identifying the genuine victims to to show compassion to, and then equality again in a post-Christian sense, that becomes a real individualism and a real allergic reaction to hierarchy, which is what you're sort of mentioning there in terms of teachers being above the pupils to some degree. But Jesus did not abolish authority, he just uh introduced servant leadership, which is still leadership, and there is still such a thing as hierarchy. So within a Christian understanding, there's freedom, compassion, and equality. I think at points people are judging you by some quite post-Christian understandings of freedom, equality, and compassion. But we will get into all of that in uh November. Uh Catherine, if if people want to catch up with you online, what can they do?
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm on Twitter, Miss Snuffy. I mean, this is Mr. Snufflepochus from Sesame Street from years ago when I wrote my blog. I need to explain that. So Miss underscore Snuffy, uh, and that's because he was the elephant in the room. So that's why I named the blog that I had at the time. Uh uh, and I named myself uh Miss Snuffaluppagus, and it was shortened to Miss Snuffy. So you can find me on Twitter. Um if you want a visit to the school, you just um sign up on uh the website. Anyone can come and visit. Uh, you'll have lunch with the kids, you'll have a tour with the kids, um, and you'll see what makes Michaela so special.
SPEAKER_01Brilliant. I can't wait. Catherine Burblesing, thank you so much for joining me.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for having me.