I think it's stunning and striking the way that Jesus includes women in his mission and in his purpose in life. And for me it's absolutely restorative. There is a place for me. Jesus wants me as Nay. I'm not a threat to him, I'm a gear. It completely changes the way I think about myself in front of him.
SPEAKER_01Hi, I'm Glenn from Speak Life. We like to see all things through the lens of Jesus, including the subject of men and women together in the life of the church, where things go right and where things go wrong. I'm joined today by Nay Dawson. She is the author of this book, She Needs Women Flourishing in the Church. And she joins me on the line from Southampton. Hello, Nay.
SPEAKER_02Hi, Glenn. Great to be with me today.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Thank you for being here. You are the founder of something called Passion for Evangelism. Tell me what Passion for Evangelism is.
SPEAKER_02PFE, as it's known, is a network of women in advancism, and we love to inspire, equip, and encourage women in creative advantages in their context. So in their lives, their work, with their friends. We we love creativity. So coming up soon, um, we've got a mentoring project. So we we train and mentor women and uh we run book clubs to equip them. And our next greenhouse mentoring project is all about spoken word poetry. So we're gonna spend an afternoon together in London. We've got a woman called Naomi Hutch who's gonna train for us, and each woman will bring along some spoken word poetry that they've written, they'll perform it in front of each other, get some peer feedback and encouragement and support. So, yeah, that's what we love doing.
SPEAKER_01You are a woman and an evangelist in the church, and you are wanting to raise up uh other women and evangelists in the church. Uh, a lot of this book is a is a kind of a a cry to the broader church to be the sort of place where such gifted women can flourish and and thrive. Um, tell me your your journey on obviously you felt the need to write to write this book. Um what obstacles do you think there have been in your experience as a gifted woman who wants to proclaim the name of Jesus in the church? Uh what are the side what are the sorts of obstacles that have gotten in your way um such that you you feel like we need this book, and I feel like we need this book. Um, but how has it been personal for you?
SPEAKER_02Thanks, Glenn. Well thanks for saying that we need the book. That means a lot to me and others as well. Um I guess for a long time I thrived and flourished, and I I grew up in a family that didn't know Jesus. I went to church as a teenager and really warmly welcomed in, and in that church, I think I flourished in my gifts and talents, so much so that I enjoyed um you know running assemblies at school and telling people about Jesus and running a Christian union. But later on, maybe in my early 30s, I was more in a culture where um I think men and women weren't seen equally, and so for me my lack of confidence became more apparent. There were less and less opportunities compared to my male peers, and that did something quite profound in me, which made me shrink a bit as a person, and so I I just remember quite clearly thinking, I'm not the person I was, um, I need to be um a bit more reserved, um, hold back a bit in some of the things I love, and it then again um when I have my second daughter, again, a shift happened in me, thinking actually, men and women are incredible, they're different, they're incredibly talented and gifted. And actually, I decided that I wanted to help women um flourish in their God-given talents in a fresh way. So, yeah, it's funny, really, how I track my journey myself from super confident as a teenager through to unconfident, and then finally again a desire to mentor equip other women to help them, I guess from my own personal journey, really.
SPEAKER_01How did you come up with um so that the the main body of the book um talks about uh six different needs um that you've identified that perhaps aren't being addressed in the church? Um they are she doesn't feel good enough to serve in your church, she needs help failing, she needs help speaking, she needs brothers, she needs you to stop fudging the issue, and she needs you to fix the leaky pipe. How did you come up with the six?
SPEAKER_02Um, good question. Well, really, so my husband's a professor, he grows bones, and um, so if you need a hip or knee replacement, he's grown bones to um, you know, replace a metal hip or knee replacement. Whereas my bones just grown.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Sorry, that's terrible. It's for middle ages.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. In his workplace, um, they're very conscious that that that there are a lot of women at the PhD level in science, but beyond that, the women seem to disappear. And so he was put on the Athena Swan committee to look at um bringing more women, keeping more women in science. And you know, that's obviously good for the university, it's good for women, they get more funding. But I was listening to John coming home talking about this research, really, a lot of um research into women in science, and I began to ask the question, is that true for the church? Because a lot of the questions they were asking in science and how to keep women evolved made sense of my own experience. Um, and so it grew from there, really. I started blogging. First of all, I just started blogging the stats that I was finding and seeing how my friends responded. And a lot of friends responded, nay, this is exactly how I feel. So I realized it's a wider cultural problem, not just the church, but women, some women in general. Um, but yeah, really, it grew from there. And I I guess some of the reading that I did made me see the key problems for women, so confidence, failure. And so I tried to address each of those, and it felt like I got to number six and I'd had enough. There was nothing else to say. So yeah, that's how it ended up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, those first two, confidence and failure, um, are very interesting about some temperamental differences that you you might observe at a more population level about men and women. So you you talk about um she doesn't feel good enough, um, that women uh on the whole, more than men on the whole, um, believe certain myths, myths of perfectionism, uh, myths that they're second best. There'll always be somebody better at something, so you may as well go and ask that person. And the myth of headhunting, the myth that, well, if I was good enough, then somebody would come and and just headhunt me and and and get me to do the role, rather than me asserting myself and putting myself forwards. So what was striking to me about that is um yeah, you you're very comfortable to say there are temperamental differences at a population level between men and women, and we need to take those into account. And I guess I I um I feel like as a man I'm less able to point to temperamental differences between men and women without the accusation of stereotyping coming in. Um I being overly sensitive to that, should we all just press into these temperamental differences a lot more and just just name the thing?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, of course, there are some women that are not gonna associate with what I'm writing. So a friend wrote to me and said, Nay, I love your book. Thanks for writing it. None of it really is associated with my experience apart from she needs you to fix the leaky pipe. So there are some women for whom they don't struggle with confidence and failure. Then there's gonna be some men who are reading it thinking, this is for me. It should be he needs, not just she needs. So, yeah, of course, within um, you know, male and female, the there are gonna be differences. But I think why I tried to go for social science research is that I wanted people to see this is generally a problem as backed up by research, and particularly the failing one, just looking at sports, so high athletic um NBA basketball players and looking at the differences between men and women and how quickly they bounce back from failure on the court. I just thought it was quite a kind of um clear-cut thing, it's not emotional, you know, we're not putting everybody in one block, it's it's athletes and sport. And then the question is okay, if women are slower to bounce back from failure on the court, does that mean the same if I make a mistake in my work or if I serve at church and I I make a mistake, is the woman gonna be more slow to bounce back? And if so, how do we help her? Because if they're that slow to bounce back, maybe they'll say no and never do that thing again. Um, and actually, as I've blogged this again, just the sheer number of women saying, Nay, this is me, and that's my experience, and it's this is how it's now impacted me and my view of myself. So I think it's okay, I think it's okay, Glenn. Because the point of the book is to start a conversation and it's meant to support people, celebrate that they're amazing and help them on their journey rather than box people.
SPEAKER_01Yes. So on those first two things, so if if people and if if it's women who are in general are lacking more in confidence and need help to fail, what can what can churches do um to to kind of help with that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a great question. So um, for example, in the she doesn't feel good enough to serve in your church, I give the example how when men apply for a job, they meet just 60% of the qualifications, but when women apply for a job, they'll only go for the job if they meet 100% of the qualifications. And almost all of my female friends have said absolutely no, that is totally me. So friends that are absolutely competent for a job won't go for it because they're slightly missing or something. So within the church, what does that mean? Well, say for example, a woman knows that she's got a gift or a talent that she wants to use. Say, for example, speaking at a Christian to explore course or being the team leader of a team within church, uh, maybe something that's a bit unusual for women to do in some churches. There is no way she's gonna offer herself because until she's 100% perfect at it or good at it, she's not gonna offer herself. So for me, I think churches could do far more in finding out what the talents and gifts are of their everyday people, and then saying to them, Are you using them? And if not, how can we help you use them? And for example, a friend, uh, I suggested a friend should speak at a conference, and the conference organizers asked her, and she said no. And they were like, Why not? And she's like, Well, I'm not good enough. And so they said, Well, we've tried Nate, and I was like, Go and ask her again. And if she says no, ask her again, and she did it third time. So for me, it's all about the church being um the metaphor of the body, and everyone has a part to play to build up the church, and there are just some people, women and some men, who cannot offer certain gifts and talents um until either they're asked or they feel absolutely 100% good enough.
SPEAKER_01This is interesting because you're an evangelist, I'm an evangelist. I wonder whether a lot of our evangelistic presentations are based on a very male-dominated view of what sin is, such that sin is the sort of boastful pride that clambers up onto the throne and declares itself to be king, and um it and is that that kind of self-assertion kind of definition of sin, which is a pretty good definition of like the male tendency, isn't it? Like the the male tendency is even if I'm only 60% of the way towards qualifying, I think I should get the job. And and that certainly rings true in terms of your your average stereotypical male temperament. It's just interesting to me, and and perhaps you can reflect on this as a as a female evangelist. I wonder whether some of our evangelistic presentations have a male-coded definition of sin, such that sin is Adam's rebellion and tyranny, um, and you know, usurping control and being being the one in charge. Um whereas that and that's true, like that that that is one way of casting sin, and it's a very biblical and and true way of casting sin. Another way of casting it, though, is Adam's a total coward and doesn't speak up, and the silence of Adam, his abdication, is also one way of describing how we got into this mess. And I I just wonder if one of the reasons why our gospel presentations can sometimes be quite unidimensional is because they they have been road tested on some posh boys and and a bunch of posh teenage boys have been told, you know, get off the throne, don't be in charge anymore, pull your head in because that's what sin is. And at that stage it leads to a kind of a gospel that doesn't really have as much traction, I think, with people who who don't fall into that category. Um and and you know, w women being being a part of it. Am I onto something there or or am I smoking something?
SPEAKER_02No, you're you're absolutely onto something, but it's also just so much broader than that, in that you know, if you're at a church where it's men preaching, which I am, and they just don't have in their mindset to even read the Bible from a female perspective. So, what does this say about women? Who are the key characters in the Bible that are female? Where's the female voice in the Bible? Um then I think there is so much that we miss. In fact, I think we miss half of the image of God when we forget that there is a female voice to be heard in the Bible, and that I think is a huge problem in evangelism, in the church, in discipleship, because people, women, don't see themselves in the Bible, and that's a problem for me. Because actually, if you read the Bible, it's so full of amazing stories of incredible women, and so my good friend and pastor Dave Bish, he intentionally reads female theologians, he intentionally uses female illustrations in his sermons, he talks about women, and it just makes such a difference. Rather than say you barely hear a woman talked about in the sermon, and if it is, it's usually that she's a temptress. That's quite painful. So yeah, I get back into the Bible, honestly, with if you do that, you'll be fine.
SPEAKER_01The problem is when I think yeah, yes, because one of the other things that it does is like if if for instance, back to the sin issue, if if sin is just the boastfulness of um the stereotypical man putting himself forward, um, you you're not able to actually convict people of sin that's coded differently. Um because like this I mean th this book is not this book is for the wider church to hear about the needs of women and their need to to flourish in the church. And so it's I think it's inappropriate in this book to say, um, women, you're not putting yourself forward as much. Why don't you put yourself more forward, right? I I I don't think this book is the right, you know, um venue for that to be said, but it's at some point there there is a way of saying to women, isn't there, that um you know, perf perfectionism um is holding you back. Here's how you can work on the perfectionism thing. Like I say, I don't think that's what this book is for, and I don't think this that's the that's the right venue for that to be said. But you actually you actually open up a much richer way of of talking to all kinds of people when you say, ah, you know, it's it's not just male-coded sins and it's not just male-coded virtue. There are female-coded virtues and female-coded sins as well. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. Um men and women are made in the image of God, aren't they? And yet, so much of our church is just about the image of men.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, interestingly, so many of my friends bought the book, so friends and family that don't know Jesus yet. And I was a bit like, what are you doing? This book isn't for you, stop buying it. You know, even like my daughter's swimming coach bought it. I'm like, what on earth? And um interestingly, as people have read it, and why they chose to read it was one because they love me and they support me, but two for them, how women are treated is a really big stumbling block for them coming to know Jesus, and so the treatment of women is a massive, massive apologetic issue, and we as a church are just failing on that, and so really I could write another book on how Jesus is amazing and the Bible is amazing how it deals with women. But my friends are saying, I want to know do you believe that women are equal and valuable in the eyes of God? And if not, I'm just not interested. And so it's been an incredible opportunity to, as they've read it, just say, Look, look at what Jesus says about women. It's so very different to what you may have heard or experienced in the church, and I'm sorry for that, but go back to Jesus, he's very, very different in the way he interacts and engages with women.
SPEAKER_01Yes. You uh reference um uh an article that's actually the the summary um for a great book um that is the number one book that you recommend off the back of She Needs. Um, but it's 21 Places Where Women Emerge Front and Center in Scripture's storyline. And uh it's by Eric Schumacher, uh, who wrote his book together with Elise Fitzpatrick. And um so here are 21 events from Genesis to Revelation in which women play key roles in redemptive history. Number one, a woman's absence is the first thing declared not good in creation. Number two, the first woman is named as being at enmity with the serpent. Number three, a woman will give birth to the serpent-crushing seed, the Messiah. Number four, a woman is the first and only character in the Old Testament to confer a name on God. That's Hagar. Number five, women act bravely at decisive moments to preserve the endangered line of the seed, often in the midst of vulnerability and oppression. So we think of Tamar or Hebrew midwives, Rahab, Ruth, Esther, and others. Number six, women are the first to believe that Jesus and his forerunner soon would be conceived. That's uh Luke chapter one, thinking about uh Elizabeth. Number seven, a woman and her child in utero are the first recorded people to recognize the Messiah's arrival, that's uh Elizabeth again. Number eight, a woman is the first recorded person to declare the Messiah's presence on earth. Uh again, Elizabeth. Number nine, a woman's voices uh a woman voices the New Testament's first poetic song, praising God for the Messiah's arrival, that's Mary's song. Number ten, a woman is the first to expect and request a miraculous sign, Jesus' mother. Number eleven, a woman is the first recorded Gentile to recognize Jesus as the Messiah and the first to tell a community about him, that's the Samaritan woman. Number twelve, only women are said to give general, regular financial provision to Jesus and the twelve in Luke chapter eight. Number thirteen, no woman is ever recorded as acting against Jesus. Wow. Number fourteen, women were the last to stay with Jesus at the cross along with one disciple, John, number fourteen. Number fifteen, a woman is the final person Jesus directly ministered to before his death. That is when Jesus provides for his his mother, Mary, with John. Number sixteen, women were the first tasked with proclaiming the good news of the resurrection. Number seventeen, a woman is the first to see the resurrected Lord, and also the first to touch his resurrected body. That's uh Mary. Number eighteen, a woman is the first to hear the resurrected Lord's voice, and the first name he utters is a woman's, Mary. I love that. I love that line. Number nineteen, women being mistreated and overlooked is the impetus for appointing the first deacons in Acts chapter six. Number twenty of Paul's four greetings that include specific. Names, a woman's name is listed first in three of them, which is fascinating. And then number 21, a woman's voice, aside from John as the author of Revelation, is the last to be quoted in the Bible. The spirit and the bride say, Come. So as you read about all those ways in which women are front and centre in the scriptures, what does that do to your heart?
SPEAKER_02Well, first time I read this, I just wept. And I felt there is a place for me as a woman in not just in God's mission, but in God Himself. I just felt welcomed and accepted and invited into what God was doing in his world. And I read it at quite a painful time when most of my male peers, we'd been equal in the jobs we were doing, and then they all went paid to Bible college, nice job as a pastor. And I was like, What do I do now? I have babies and I retire at 33. And this was very different. It was stark. And and I just think the kindness of Jesus, women from the cradle to the grave women were the first to witness and share of the good news of Jesus. I was like, Yes, I can be an evangelist. It's okay to be who I am. So it was very affirming. Um, but also not just me as an evangelist, things like the stories of the midwives and how these courageous women stood against injustice, that just blew me away. And then the kind of countercultural, it was only women giving regular financial provision. Like, what? I thought women were supposed to go and have babies and not work, and that's the good, right, middle class Christian thing to do. No, these were rich women giving generously.
SPEAKER_01Cough up, ladies, cough up.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. So it slightly blew my mind because I've been accused of being a feminist and a liberal, and here was like a new model for me of what it meant to be a woman. And I felt deeply excited and grateful to Eric, really, and to Elise for writing Worthy, which was the expanded version of this blog.
SPEAKER_00Hi, Thomas Thorgood here, media producer at Speak Life. You might recognise my voice as the guy who does the filler bits on the podcast. I'd love to invite you to our online community, the Speak Life Discord. It's a great place to interact with the Speak Life team and other Speak Life followers. And if you are a regular giver to the work of Speak Life within the Discord, you can get access to bonus content. So why not go to speaklife.org.uk forward slash Discord to join today. We'll see you there. Okay, back to the podcast.
SPEAKER_01I was heartwarmed to see you you have a a different list on page 87 of your book about the ways in which women minister to men and w minister to the the broader church. And this is a different kind of uh a list, but it gives such a rich picture of what New Testament Christianity uh looked like in biblical times. You talk about um here is ministry women to men, and so you you talk about Priscilla Aquila and Apollos in Acts 18, for instance, and and the way in which Priscilla and her husband taught um Apollos, and then you talk about ministry of women to women, you talk about Naomi and Ruth in that stage, you talk about um ministry of men to women in groups. So in Luke chapter 10, Mary just sat with the guys and learned um with the other disciples. You talk about men and women as co-workers. I think Romans 16 is such a window onto first century life in which men and women ministering uh together, men, women, brothers, sisters, mothers all working hard together. Then you talk about uh men to women on their own. So Jesus was quite happy talking to a Samaritan woman by herself in John chapter 4. Women as patrons, uh, that's back in Romans 16. You talk about Phoebe, a wealthy, influential person of high standing, providing substantial benefits to many believers. You talk about grandmothers and mothers teaching men, such as uh Timothy and 2 Timothy. Jesus and the apostles depending on women. Uh that's that same point about the um those providing for Jesus' needs, those women in Luke chapter 8. Men and women traveling together, um, they just went about. Um Jesus allowed women who weren't his relatives to travel with him in his group of male and female disciples. You talk about women hosting assemblies of believers in their home, you talk about Nympha in uh Colossians, and I I I guess um would it be Lydia as well in in Acts 16 would be an example of that? And uh men and women as brothers and sisters. Um that's obviously all over the New Testament, but uh you referenced 1 Timothy 5. That brothers and sisters thing, we really need to lay hold of that again, don't we? That that in the family of God there is just something so wholesome and equalizing and ennobling and joy-filled, actually, about reclaiming that vision of brothers and sisters in the church, wouldn't you say?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's the antidote to so many other things and other problems. So, you know, even in the last few weeks, I was at a conference and there were men there that couldn't look me in the eye. I was on a small group discussion of four people, and I looked at this one guy, I eyeballed him for 10 minutes, he didn't look me in the eye. And then um I asked a church leader recently if I could meet with him to discuss something, and he said that he'd be bringing along a family member whilst we meet to discuss. So I think there's so many situations where I I've begun to wonder what's wrong with me. I am not a deeply attractive person, and yet um men don't seem to be able to spend time with me on their own, and I have no history of adultery, you know. I'm firmly committed. 20 years actually, this year, married to my husband. Congratulations. So for me, having a list like this just affirms again that God has gifted women and that there's something quite wrong with certain aspects of the church in terms of like men learning from women, like men out there, when did you last learn from a woman like theolog theological stuff, like heavy, weighty stuff or anything? Like we women often read 50% male and female authors, men will read majority male authors, so we're just not learning from each other, and I think that's deeply unhealthy, whereas the Bible shows so many different patterns and ways, and brothers, being brothers and sisters is the antidote for all of that, and it's plural, isn't it? It's sisters, brothers, not just one brother, one sister.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah. So one of your chapters is is is entitled She Needs Brothers, and you quote there from Jen Wilken, um, who is over in the States, she has written about three female ghosts to haunt the church. And when we lose sight of the brothers and sisters thing, here is here are three kind of false visions that that uh women are sort of cast as. The child, she says, the usurper, and the temptress. Um, can you elaborate on those? The child, the usurper, and the temptress, and and what examples have you seen in your own experience of of these kind of stereotypes?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks, Glenn. So the child, I guess, simply as a parent, um, it would be things like making decisions for women, um, patronizing or humiliating them in front of others. That happened to me quite a lot. A peer would always introduce me with a very embarrassing story about me every single time he introduced me. Um controlling others, um, controlling them, independence is discouraged, told what to do in your free time, um, and then Mel appears being given more freedom than you. So that that would be the child. I've experienced each of those most of those in multiple times as her friends. Um I would say the usurper is um one where your your character's questioned, um, you're told you've got ideas above your station, um, treated with suspicion. So uh and things like friends have said to me, no, it's obvious who wears the trousers in your marriage. Um kind of questioning that I'm trying to take over in the marriage, or questioning I'm trying to take over at church. Um, other people thinking that you want their job, that's happened to me before. I've been accused of a coup before trying to take someone's job. Um yeah, people admitting they're afraid of you. So at a conference once I noticed that in the free time the men hang out with the men, and the women of which there was probably four or five, stayed with the women. And I said to one colleague, why does nobody want to spend time with me? And he said, Nay, they're afraid of you. Like, I'm not I like swimming and I like gardening and cooking. Like, I'm not a kind of fear-making person. Um yeah, so that's that's the usurper. Um the temptress is that that women basically want to get into bed with any man they spend any time with, and so we're marriage disruptors, hence like people not wanting to spend time with us alone in a cafe. So again, this seems to happen to me at conferences a lot, but a conference I went to, I was asked to be a mentor, I noticed that all my mentees were women, and then I noticed in the dining room that all of the tables were women only or men only, apart from the ones where the man was mentoring a woman and a spouse had to come along. And this was like 6 a.m. in the morning in a restaurant with hundreds of people in, probably 5 a.m. UK time. Like, I was tired, I was not gonna be, you know, in any way tempting anyone, and yet even that was too much. And so when you live like that and that you are a temptress, it you know, it does something to your personality and your worth. To caveat that, I I grew up in a single parent family. My dad did have an affair with my mum's best friend, so I'm very aware of adultery, don't agree with it at all. I think we've got to be careful um on many levels, but the kind of bulk standard this is what women are is deeply unhelpful in society, not just the church. And it's and it means we miss out on relationships, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_01It really does, and and and it actually fails to do the one thing it's trying to do because suddenly you've just identified every woman as a threat. Um and and actually, you know, that that might that might lead you to kind of erect triple guards against adultery and that sort of thing, but it also makes you conceive of every single woman in your life as as a seductress and a temptress and a and a threat, which I I think is even counterproductive for what you want to do. Like, because even if the man is trying to avoid adultery, um, it's an odd way to try to avoid adultery to cast every woman as a threat. Actually, I I I I think that ends up being counterproductive even in the thing that you're most trying to do. And I think that cat circling back to the brothers thing, the brothers and sisters thing, like the the most wholesome thing you can do is just recalibrate your vision for women in the church as either mothers if they're older or sisters if they're, you know, the same age or younger, and and vice versa, you know, women to see men as as you know, brothers and fathers in in in that kind of way. That that seems to me to be a much more wholesome way of doing it, but it would also mean that probably in that restaurant at 6 a.m. in the morning, um, there'd be a lot more mixed tables.
SPEAKER_02And I've got Amy Bird has written a really good book called Why Can't We Be Friends, and she talks about how avoidance is not purity. And I think that's that's just really helpful looking at what actually is purity and how can purity be found. Um so I think we've we've gone down the wrong route, really, and the impact of that really hits women hugely.
SPEAKER_01You've got a you've got a great chapter on um she needs help speaking. And it's interesting, like kind of the first ways you apply that is she needs help in speaking up, um, in just contributing to conversations uh that are happening. You've got kind of uh examples in the secular sphere, and then you've got uh a heartbreaking example um in in a church sphere where one of the women who you quote says that she was encouraged, I think it was in a camp setting, um, that during the prayer meeting, whatever you do, women don't go first. Make sure it's the make sure it's a man who prays first, um, because that will will set an example, I guess, for male kind of spiritual authority or something or something like that. But that that seems like a like I the I put many frowny faces in the um margin of this book, uh Nay. Um it's brilliantly written, by the way. The frowny face is not disagreement, the frowny face is sadness at the at the truth of this. Yeah, well, yeah. Um and like like who tells who tells a woman, please don't pray first? Like, what does that even communicate? What does that do to the woman? And clearly this woman had remembered it from years ago, and it it it had stayed with this woman, and I can imagine why it would stay with a woman. Like, this this is a thing, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it really is a thing, and each of these stories are true. I've changed the names to protect the women, but they could have been multiplied over and over again. So there's themes that have come out. I think it's because in many church circles, women simply are second rate. And um, somebody once said to me, when I was kind of questioning what I was doing with my life, my career, she said uh about a male peer, uh, he really could be something they, you know, he really could be something like a pastor. So it's like, but what about me? And that whole like the ultimate obsession about men becoming pastors and um actually forgetting that there's so much we can do in life for God, like the whole of life is worship. It um it really kind of delegates women to a second second class citizen citizen, which I think is desperately sad. And so that's replicated. Of course, you allow the men to go first because they really could be something, you know. Of course, we don't push an agenda because you know, they really could be something. So that I think sadly has its outworking in many places in the church because um the pastor, you know, the church leader is way too enamoured rather than actually all of us are really important in God's mission, whether that's nine to five in the science lab or leading a church or me running Passion for Evangelism. And the stories are sad, and I I really wanted to I wanted the stories to be told because one telling your story brings hope, but um also I just wanted to diagnose a problem. I didn't want to give any solutions, I wanted people to sit in the fact there is a problem and in that wallow a bit and feel sorry for women and then do something about it, bring some change, because there are so many simple changes that could be made that could liberate women to build up the church. It's just crazy how simple some of these things are, and then some are much more long-term and slow. But Glenn, even you having me on this podcast, reading my book will mean something to women out there, and um, that's really exciting.
SPEAKER_01So take us through some of these things that can be done. There are there are some simple things that that hopefully can happen today, um, and there are some longer-term things. Let's let's start with the simple and the more immediate, and then we can think about some of the longer-term ones.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I'm grateful that lots of church pastors have read my book, they've been in touch. You know, some have said, Oh, it's very, very short. They read it in an afternoon, and I've responded, that's not how you're meant to read it. It's meant to be read together. You don't read this book alone. You buy two or three copies, and the best thing that you can do is read it with everyday women in your church and listen to what they're saying. So, as a church, I go to Southampton Lighthouse International. 30 of us committed to reading it in June, and we read it through June and then met together to listen to each other. And I think that is the most important thing to do is first of all to stop and listen to the experience of women in your church. Because until you do that, you presume everyone's okay, or you presume that person's a usurper or just like a troublemaker. I think it's really important to sit and listen, and only from that point onwards you can actually make any changes. I think also clarity is kindness, so being clear on what your position is as a church is really important. I met a vicar recently who again said, Thanks so much for your book, I really enjoyed it. And he said, What do I do? And I said, Well, clarity is kindness, get clear. And he said, Well, it's just so hard, it's much easier to fudge the issue. And I said, Well, of course it's easier for you, but what about the women? You know, if you get clear and have a bit of pain getting clear, you will make life so much better for the women in your church. And he he agreed and he said, I'm I'm gonna do it for their sake. So I think listen, um, get clear on the church's position, and then do everything you can to encourage, inspire, equip women to give it a go, serve in your church in a new role, find a new space for them to serve, encourage them. Um, like Glenn, I love I love Speak Life. I'd love to see more female evangelists, more women, you know, like you, Glenn, but doing their stuff and equipped and encouraged to do that. Like, how many well-known female evangelists do we know? Like, and yet how many male evangelists do we know? So many. So there's a lot to be done, I think, that is actually could be quite enjoyable, like listening and making changes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And so for those outside the church looking in, um, there might there might be people, you've you've kind of mentioned it as a as an evangelistic apologetic issue. There'll be people looking in at the church thinking, uh, they they think they know the answer to the meaning of life, but I I don't see men and women flourishing together, or I I'm not sure I see a vision for the liberation of women there in the church. What would you say to a woman looking in and figuring out, does Jesus really have good news for me?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think it's even worse than that. I think the questions are, is Christianity good for women? Does God even like women? Does the church like women? Because if if he doesn't, then what's the point? And I think when you go and look at Jesus in the Gospels, he will surprise you every time how he interacts with women, how he engages, how he invites them, and most of the time it's countercultural for that moment. So you look at um Mary and Martha and how Jesus invites them to come and sit at his feet and learn, and you look at us the Samaritan women and other women that have questionable histories, and yet Jesus spent time with them, and then he encouraged them to use their voice for him. So I think if you are in doubt about whether Christianity is good for women, just for a little time stop listening to what you hear in your church and instead go and read the gospels again with a view to how does Jesus interact with women and for women. I think it's stunning and striking the the way that Jesus um includes women in in his mission and in his purpose in life. And for me it's absolutely restorative. There is a place for me. Jesus wants me. As Nay. I'm not a threat to him, I'm a gift. It completely changes the way I think about myself in front of him. Which is brilliant.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's more than brilliant, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, you're not a threat, you're a gift. Um, yeah, that's true in Jesus' eyes. Yeah, let that be let that be true in the eyes of the of the church family as well. Um so Nate, the book's been out not long now, but um have you been pleased with how the book's been received? Um what's it make what's it made you think about the thesis of the book, about the problems that you're addressing? Have you heard more stories now that the book is out there?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I've heard so many stories. A friend of mine read it and said, May I associate with almost everything you say? She said, an end result was I climbed back into my loft and I opened up the box which she had labelled theology books for the past. And she said, I brought me down out of the loft and I decided to start reading theology again. And she's in a church where there's no scope for her to teach apart from kids and youth, but she wanted to just start reading theology books again, and for me that was incredible. Um, I've had other women get in touch and say, absolutely associated with everything you said. Um, I want to find a place for me to serve in my church. I just don't know how. And again, it's these underused talents and gifts that women have that are rusty on the shelves. They're they're going back up to the shelves to find them and bring them back down, and then hopefully finding boldness to ask their pastors how they can use them. I mean, other friends I've met with, and we have just cried together the pain that they've felt for decades as a woman in church, and many of them are now amazing in their jobs, they've become leaders and trained in the secular world and their jobs because the church just won't have them. But it's how they keep on having hope and being generous and forgiving and not being cynical, that's a big thing. How how do we remain really fresh in our love for Jesus and our love and hope for the church, even though we are so underused and undervalued? That that's been a big conversation. And I don't want to become a kind of separationist or segregated from men or from others in the church. I genuinely believe men and women should be working together for building up the church, and so um that kind of constant striving to how can we love our brothers better and not just hold it against them and become bitter, that's been a great opportunity to talk. And and then some women saying, actually, I'm thriving in my church, nay, I've loved your book. It doesn't necessarily apply to me maybe the confidence of the failing issues, but I but they're saying we want to listen to others in the church, so they're inviting in. So that's been really encouraging. Um, yeah, lots of feedback, and then church pastors saying thanks so much. We've read it as a church team, we want to think through the whole strategy about women in the church. So that's been really exciting. That church teams want to listen to women en masse and then talk about what's our position on women, what can women do, and then how do we get them to a place where they're actually serving? That's that's really critical.
SPEAKER_01So, what gives you hope as you um move forwards from this book? The book is out there, it's kind of doing its thing, it's starting conversations. What gives you hope as you move forwards?
SPEAKER_02I think the fact that we can have a conversation that that's okay, that I'm not in some ways disloyal or um disrupting the church by opening up a conversation, and then that conversation being between men and women and between those that can make decisions and others means that I have great hope that change could come. Not necessarily that churches change their theological position, but within that, that they make so much more space to consider what it's like to be a woman and how to involve them. And I yeah, I I have great hope and I've seen things change. I guess there are times when I don't have hope, and there's quite a block against women serving freely or equally. But I think most of the people that I've heard from are positive, maybe not so much for changing their church, but they they have been changed by what they've read, and they have felt heard because somebody is naming it, and they then can process their own story because they're hearing other people's stories. So for me, the fact that one or two women I know locally have read it and feel heard and feel they can begin to process some of that pain, that's everything to me. I think I can probably retire now.
SPEAKER_01So Nay, um, looking ahead as an evangelist, what what gives you hope as an evangelist? Sort of surveying uh the UK scene and wanting to make the name of Jesus known around there. What what do you see that God is doing um with this particular you know time in the harvest field that that He's given to you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks Glenn. I mean I'm really encouraged at church that we're a city-centred church, and every week there are new people coming. Often they want to find out more about what church is like, who Jesus is, they've done a quick Google search, our church has popped up and they've come along. So I'm really excited about that. I'm also excited about my own friendships. So I love river swimming, I run a river swimming group, and um I'm committed to local parents and mums and spend a lot of time with them. And particularly in those friendships, people are now daily asking me questions. We've gone through quite a bit of suffering in my friendships, physical suffering, and that has opened the door for conversations, but also writing this book, people just keep asking me about what kind of God wouldn't want a woman as part of his team. And they're like, Yeah, nay, you should just leave the church. But actually, I've been able to give them such a vision for who God is that that has been my best opportunity in these last few months. And I'm just delighted. I think I might write more books just so I can talk to my friends. I just I guess people are really um interested in ethical issues and justice, aren't they? And this feels like an area of injustice the way women have been treated throughout history and through the church, and so people want to talk about that. They want to know is God a just God? Does he care about justice? So that's that's been phenomenal. The opportunities. It hasn't always been like that. We've lived here for 20 years in Southampton. These friends I've been friends with for 10 years plus. I'm not saying it's like that all the time, but right now it's a season of conversation that I've never seen before. So I'm I'm excited. I try and answer questions where I can, try and give a hope, try and send Bible verses by WhatsApp, invite people to church, speak of Jesus, and as often as I can, I just do what I love and I do it often, do it with others, and that seems to create opportunities to talk about Jesus.
SPEAKER_01Do what you love, do it with others, do it often, and bring Jesus with you. That's a brilliant word on uh how to share the gospel from here. Uh Nay, your book is called She Needs When Women Flo Women Flourishing in the Church, published by IVP and available where all good books are sold. So, how can people keep up with you online, Nay?
SPEAKER_02Follow me anywhere on your social media, Nay Dawson, and in particular on Twitter, we've got an upcoming podcast called She Needs, where we'll bring to life some of the authors that I heavily lent upon in writing the book. So we'll be interviewing Amy Byrd, Eric Schumacher, and Kelly Cole.
SPEAKER_01Fantastic. Well, I will be subscribing to that as soon as it is available on Spotify. So uh do look out for the She Needs podcast coming soon. Nate Dawson, thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, Glenn. Great to be with you.