Have you ever thought about how your bank uses your savings? What if I told you there's a fully regulated Christian bank that aligns your money with your faith? When you open a Kingdom Bank savings account, you help to provide vital mortgages for churches, Christian ministries, and gospel workers who might struggle to secure one elsewhere. Whether saving for yourself or on behalf of your church, your savings will support Christian ministries across the UK. And when you're ready to take your money out, you get it back with interest. If your spending and giving reflect your faith, shouldn't your savings as well? Open a savings account with Kingdom Bank today and put your money where your heart is. Visit Kingdom.bankslash speaklife. Kingdom Bank is a member of the FSCS and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority. What do you think of Big Eva? No, I'm not referring to an Eastern European shop putter from the Moscow Olympics. I'm talking about Big Evangelicalism. It calls to mind giant, unfeeling leviathons with their tentacles reaching into every section of society. People are very suspicious of the evangelical industrial complex, and there are genuine concerns to address. But last week there was a meeting held that was Big Eva's bigger brother, the fourth Lasanne Congress that's been held since 1974. My guest today is Trevan Wax. He was there in Seoul Korea with 5,000 others. He has been buzzing about what a truly Big Eva actually looks like.
SPEAKER_00I don't know that there has been a wider, more representative gathering of evangelicals worldwide ever before in history. And it gives you a renewed sense of confidence in the power of the gospel because you look at this and say, there's no reason why Christianity should work in every culture in the way that it does, in the way that it enters a culture, challenges that culture, then transforms aspects of that culture. It's like this diamond that is showcasing the beauty of King Jesus from all these different angles. It puts a lot of cultural debates in perspective. It helps put some of those hot button political issues, it helps you just put them into that bigger frame. You know, the church is gonna be fine. Jesus is building his church worldwide, countries come and go, empires rise and fall, but the kingdom is unstoppable.
SPEAKER_01Hi, I'm Glenn from Speak Life. We like to see all things through the lens of Jesus, including the topic of Big Eva. Have you heard of Big Eva? It's the kind of epithets that makes you think of Big Pharma with its tentacles reaching into all corners of the church and perhaps exercising greater control than it should. Sometimes people talk about evangelical coalitions in that kind of sense as Big Eva. But last week there was uh a meeting held that was uh Big Eva's bigger brother, much bigger brother, the Lausanne uh Congress, the fourth Lasanne Congress that's been held since 1974. Uh evangelicals from around the world from about 200 countries meeting together to talk about Christ and his great commission out to the nations. And uh my guest today is Trevan Wax. He was there in Seoul Korea with 5,000 others, and uh he has been buzzing about his time at Lausanne, and I thought he could give us a real vision for what a truly big EVA actually looks like. Uh, Trevan, thank you so much for joining me.
SPEAKER_00Glenn, so glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01Tell my tell us a little bit about uh who you are, your situation in the U.S. and how you're connected to the Lausanne people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so um I'm first and foremost a writer, so I have uh columns at the Gospel Coalition in the United States, have written a number of books over the years. Uh I serve at the North American Mission Board, which is the church planting arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, and uh also is in uh is uh an organization engaged with a lot of compassion ministry, provision of um uh evangelism resources for people in North America in particular. But uh I I've gotten to teach and to speak in different places over the years, uh different evangelical institutions like Cedarville University or Wheaton College and other places. And so um my connections with uh with the the Lausanne movement have really been historical in that I'm I consider myself uh influenced by John Stott, who was highly influential at the at the beginning of Lazon 50 years ago. And then uh um and then also just through connections over the years, just different, I I've I've really relied on uh the documents that have come out of these congresses, the the three uh that have met over the years, and now a fourth. Uh these documents have been pretty influential in in missiology over the year. But my PhD is in applied theology, North American missiology. And uh the Lazon Congress documents have been really influential in the way we think about mission and the way that we think about evangelism and reaching the nations. And and so uh all of that is just kind of swirled around to make it a really huge honor to be part of this most recent fourth LaSanne Congress.
SPEAKER_01And so you've been uh a cross-cultural missionary yourself as well, Trevan. Tell us about some of that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so uh when I was 19 years old, I bought a one-way ticket and I moved to Romania, uh, there in Eastern Europe and and lived there for five years. Basically, it was full immersion, cross-cultural ministry, cross-generational ministry. I like to say I learned I really learned the ins and outs of of ministry, of preaching, teaching, working with kids, youth, everything in that Romanian context, having to learn the language and and uh really um for me that that was sort of the the crucible of introduction to to ministry was in that cross-cultural setting. And so, so uh, you know, you when you when you leave your own country for a long time and then you come back after having been fully immersed in another culture, another context, you do you do wind up seeing things differently based on I mean, there are just certain things that you take for granted in your own cultural context that you just you have a different view when you come back and you can actually see some things that you might not have seen before. And so I feel like that's always been a a a hallmark, uh hopefully something that I brought to to my ministry no matter when I'm writing or where I'm at.
SPEAKER_01Right. Uh was it Roger Kipling who said he knows not England who only England knows? Um and I guess, yeah, Trevan knows not America who only America knows. Uh as that as that sort of international focus has helped you to see your your domestic focus. Like when you think of the phrase big Eva, um what what does that call to mind in an American setting? And then we'll compare that with what you experienced in Seoul last week.
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, in the American setting, I I feel like it it it's referring primarily when people use that, they usually use it in a you know in a demeaning way. Uh, but they're they're referring to certain institutions, organizations, personalities who are all interlocking in some way or have some kind of connection to where they have influence together. And so when you see that and you see the connection of of those things, uh there's nothing really nefarious about that. It's just it is kind of the the the nature of how evangelical institutions really, the neo-evangelical movement has been a lot like that from the beginning. If you think about the founding of like Fuller Seminary, Christianity Today, Gordon Conwell, you can start going through these institutions and you can watch how they've been an influence in um interdenominational relationships, you know, in in different churches and whatnot over the decades. I think more recently it refers to the online phenomenon of that. So you take you take uh what it looks like for institutions to sort of grow up in the online age where you have different websites and you've got personalities and you've got uh um uh speakers at different platforms and conferences and whatnot. And so Big Eva is sort of just this thing that you can give over, you can kind of speak of uh that's almost kind of that that part of that, I think the initial termin of that was uh Carl Truman. It was sort of this sort of celebrity culture that he was he was critiquing. And some of that critique is fair, I think, because you know, uh the way institutions work, the way personalities within institutions work, the way there are certain dynamics that happen that some are unseen, um, all of that is, I think, worthy of discussion and putting out on the table and saying what's you know good or bad or healthy or not about some of these uh some of these things. But usually it's a term of derision and it's um, you know, try trying to say, hey, big Eva, as opposed to more of a populist, you know, instead of the sophisticated people that seem to have a voice up here at the top, here are all the people that don't have the microphone that are actually more in touch with the you know the real heart of evangelicalism.
SPEAKER_01Right. And more locally connected and locally concerned. And and I guess um as well, there's something good about denominational distinctives as well. Like there's there's something that can get in the way of mission if if it's all about denominational distinctives and you know, my view on baptism versus your view on baptism, my view on church government versus yours, my eschatology versus your eschatology. Um there's something good about laying those to one side, but there's also something good about, I guess, um paying attention to the denominational distinctives of the particular form of Christianity that you you know happen to be a part of. And yeah, may maybe a retreat from um those partnerships into um the confessions of our own denominations um can be fruitful and maybe uh a focus on the local, um, and certainly a focus on the the local church and and loving people where we are, that's that's got to be good. Um but what also is good about the other thing? What also is good about um setting aside secondary and tertiary issues and uniting together in in the gospel and and just bring that into conversation with your your your trip to Seoul last week. Um what what did you love about that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um that's a great question. I you know, I I feel I feel we ex what you're saying there, I resonate with um when it comes to denominational distinctives. I kinda I like to think of it in terms of the analogy of a house and homes in a neighborhood. Um there's something there's something really right about focusing on your own home, your own local church ministry, your own local partnerships. There's something, uh there's even something right about policing the boundaries at some level of what your denominational distinctives are, if it means for the integrity of the house that this is an important, this is a distinctive. It's like a load-bearing wall in this particular house. But um, so so I think I think there's something good and wise about institutions and about denominations and groups that form around particular distinctives, and that God has lots of treasures in his kingdom that come to us through different homes in the neighborhood. But um, but now to to go back to the to the other side, your home should be a home, not a prison. And I think uh one of the beautiful things about interdenominational partnerships and being out to being able to enjoy being out in the neighborhood and visiting other people's homes is you wind up, you can you can wind up beautifying your own home because of what you've encountered in other people's homes. You know, there are particular traditions in Christianity that each have uh distinctive beauty to them. And I can be a convicted, convictional Baptist and still recognize something uh of a gift to the universal church in, for example, Thomas Cranmer's The Book of Common Prayer that comes from the the Anglican tradition, or uh that there can be something uh really beautiful, beautiful that can be incorporated into worship from some of our charismatic brothers and sisters. So, like you wind up in visiting some of the other homes in the neighborhood, you wind up seeing where God is at work. You you don't necessarily have to come to different conclusions about your your your convictions or your uh the the particular things that mark out your faith family and your tradition. But there is something really beautiful about you know the neighborhood. And so sometimes when everyone comes together for like a block party in the neighborhood, um they're they're coming together but united around particular things, united around the gospel, united around mission. And I think that's really what is historic about the fourth Luzon gathering that just happened. I don't know that there has been a wider, more representative gathering of evangelicals worldwide ever before in history. I mean, 5,200 people from more than 220 nations. Uh, this was the first of the four Lazon gatherings in the last 50 years where our Chinese brothers and sisters could also be present with us. There were a hundred or so. Um, you know, this this is a it's a it's it's historic in the sense of bringing together so many evangelicals from so many different backgrounds, different denominations, different cultural, uh um, you know, and uh cultural perspectives, ethnicities, it's all coming together in one place, united around these core truths that you see in the Lasagne Covenant, and then uh um, and then wanting to, you know, to reach the world for Christ, and to both, as we said at this conference, to declare and display Christ together, uh, so that there would continue to be that emphasis both on declaration, on uh speaking the truth of the gospel, and displaying, living in line with the gospel so that our lives are a platform and are actually evidence for the truth that we are proclaiming.
SPEAKER_01Have you ever thought about how your bank uses your savings? What if I told you there's a fully regulated Christian bank that aligns your money with your faith? When you open a Kingdom Bank savings account, you help to provide vital mortgages for churches, Christian ministries, and gospel workers who might struggle to secure one elsewhere. Whether saving for yourself or on behalf of your church, your savings will support Christian ministries across the UK. And when you're ready to take your money out, you get it back with interest. If your spending and giving reflect your faith, shouldn't your savings as well? Open a savings account with Kingdom Bank today and put your money where your heart is. Visit Kingdom.bankslash speaklife. Kingdom Bank is a member of the FSCS and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority. You mentioned the the Chinese church. Did you get much of a sense of uh how is the church faring in China? It's it's one of those questions that's that's hard to answer because much of it is underground. But uh, what was your sense?
SPEAKER_00It it is very much uh difficult to answer. And you know, one of the things there was an entire day that was devoted to the persecuted church. And in fact, a lot of people that were at this Congress talked about that particular day being the most meaningful and significant day. And I I I I sensed that as well. Um because uh some of the testimony, some of the testimonies and some of the stories were almost just jaw-dropping in in the way that people that had been through persecution were speaking of the persecution they'd been through. So there was, for example, uh there was an Iranian who spoke at the last Lasan Congress in Cape Town in 2010, who, after speaking at that uh Congress, spent several years in jail, uh, including a a pretty significant uh amount of time in solitary confinement. And when he got up to speak at the Lasagne Congress this year, I mean he he he he made the comment when he first said, Well, the last time I spoke at this Congress, I then went to jail for five years. I'm hoping things turn out different this time. And there's this rumbling of laughter across the Congress, but then I'm also thinking, you know, it's Gallo's humor from someone of whom the world is not worthy. Because you just you you think through that and you just think the fact that the the the perspective could still be hopeful, even with a sense of humor to speak about uh, you know, such a uh of uh such terrible suffering, um, it shows something about the resilience and about the joy that comes about that that is on display, even in Christians that are facing terrible times of suffering. And so um, you know, we we were reminded very often, actually, that um there were there were particular people, we all had lanyards, and there were particular people that had white lanyards that and with a with a sign on their badge that had a no-photographs thing, because there were many people from different parts of the world uh who it would be dangerous to them or their families for them to be photographed. In fact, there was a warning after one of the sessions, there was someone who spoke who uh whose family was then threatened because they had spoken because someone had taken some pictures and they had been posted online. And so people were, you know, furiously going back through social media, like, look, I mean, I even looked at my own phone, I was like, did I perhaps take a picture during that session? And I hadn't, but I I mean, a lot of I saw people like immediately looking down to make sure that they hadn't somehow uh uh put someone in danger by uh the the photos they were taking or the the things they had commented on. So it's just that that realization that persecution is a reality in the church and that it's something that is uh um uh the the the day in and day out uh testimony of many believers in other parts of the world that um that we we have to recognize together as one body that we suffer together.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Very humbling, very humbling. And you were a kind of a like, was it called a table leader? You you you sort of had a a group of others who are with you from a I guess a diversity of nations. Um what what was it like getting to know some of those brothers and sisters in Christ uh at a more kind of local level?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so you know what's fascinating about the Lausanne Congress is that it's not uh where you know you've got 5,000 people sitting in rows in some sort of auditorium just watching what's happening on the platform. Instead, you have everybody around tables of six. And so the entire Congress is laid out uh on tables. And so to be a table group leader was basically I I I had been asked a couple of months before if I would consider leading a table group, and I said, sure, if you just let me know what's involved. I didn't actually know what was involved until I got there. Um but it basically means you're you're leading the discussion after each of the sessions, which does mean you've got to be present through the entire Congress. It's two sessions in the morning and one every evening. And um uh for me it was a it was a terrific experience because the people around the table, uh, there was uh um uh uh someone from Korea, there was someone from Hong Kong, there was someone from Kenya, and someone from India. And they all have different backgrounds, all come to Christ from different ways, um, uh all you know coming at at to this Congress from with different ministry, different hearts for for you know for the people that God has placed on their heart. Um, you know, and so so I think for me it was just it was a it was a great opportunity to get to know some other believers and to be able to process this Congress together with them. What you know, the questions the in the you know there were other sessions as well uh that I was involved in where you had representation around the table uh on on some of the flashpoint cultural points. You know, every afternoon I was um at a a collaborate session, and um there are people from uh Ghana, Malawi, Greece, the UK, Canada, and the Netherlands all around this this table. And we're talking about you know, flashpoint issues related to gender and sexuality and some of the apologetic challenges that are there. And they're just very different depending on where on who you're talking to. And so I well, so for example, what one of the fascinating uh aspects of that was um on the second day of the collaborate session, there was a discussion that happened in the the group overall around the question of what our focus was, because there were a number of participants in that room, there were dozens of people in this room around different tables. Um there were some that had chosen the topic, gender and sexuality, because they thought that the focus was going to be on um relationships between men and women, husbands and wives, and marriage and family more broadly, and were a little confused as to why the conversations around many of the tables seemed to be focusing more on, you know, controversies around LGBT, you know, identities and things like that. And so, and so we had this conversation as to, well, should we should we instead, you know, um realign in some of our tables based on where we really want these conversations to go? But what actually happened was I think the the the room decided, no, what needs to happen is a broadening of this conversation beyond some of the flashpoint cultural issues in more Western nations to understanding the real significance around these questions of gender and sexuality are anthropological. They're about what does it mean to be human? What does it mean to be embodied? Like what are what do our bodies mean? Um, what what is the you know, the design of God's creation in male and female and whatnot? And then all of the flashpoint, you know, hot cultural issues, they sort of flow from that bigger conversation. And I'm just I'm not sure that the bigger conversation would have happened without the global church represented there at you know, having these uh raising these questions and asking, you know, and br and raising different kinds of concerns that are there because of their local contexts.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell That's a brilliant example of the global church blessing the local expression and and setting into context the the questions that you're wrestling with in in your own kind of subculture and yeah, and getting more of a bird's eye view because you go global. That's that that's fascinating. Tell us a little bit about um how is the Great Commission going in the world in in terms of reaching the nations. Did did you learn anything new um about that?
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, I A lot of my learning on that was uh due to the Great Commission, the State of the Great Commission report that came out uh in the spring in in the lead up to the Lazon Congress, um, which which had a a a number of of essays, graphs, charts, maps, all sorts of things, kind of laying out where things are across the world. And like any multi-author, you know, thing, it's a mixed bag. Some of the essays are really strong, some are not as strong, some uh some I found really helpful, some I didn't find quite as clarifying. It's just kind of uh all over the place. And this is one of the this is one of the challenges Lasagna has had from the beginning is to how broad or how narrow to focus its attention when it comes to the question of the Great Commission, because the Great Commission itself is about making disciples, right? Baptizing people. So you have this emphasis on conversion and evangelism. But then you also have, you know, teaching them to obey everything I've commanded you. Well, that in me basically is there you've got the declare and display that I was talking about earlier. It's there in the Great Commission itself. Teaching to obey means, you know, the scope is potentially endless as to what it means for us to fulfill the Great Commission and what does it mean for us to make disciples and to be disciples? And so uh so Lazon wrestles with that tension. Um, and there's there's lots of debate every single time that there's a Lazon Congress, there's debate over are we too far afield here? Do we need to focus it more on the making of disciples initially? What does it look like, you know, world evangelization and and whatnot? But um uh what I think one of the big takeaways, one of the big shocking things, is to look at the percentage of where evangelicals are globally now compared to a century ago, uh, 125 years ago. There's a particular graph that's just stunning that shows the global representation of Christians worldwide, evangelical Christians worldwide, that shows the dominance of North America and Europe um 125 years ago, than to today, where North America and Europe are in the minority, and you see the global South, um uh Asia, Africa, Latin America, whatnot, just dwarfing in terms of numbers. And I think that is um, I think that graph itself shows where the explosion of Christianity has been in the last 100 years. And um, and and also it it also demonstrates the amount of energy in missions now from everyone to everywhere. It's it's not it's not as if missions is this North America, Europe to the rest of the world. It's now it's we it's can it's called polycentric mission, where you know, I mean, one of the one of my table mates uh in Kenya is supporting uh you know missionary at a different different part missionaries in different parts of Africa. Korea outside of North America is the largest missionary sending country in the world. So I mean, if you just it just it's really mind-blowing to think about the um the number of missionaries who are in different parts of the world. I mean, I got to meet with a uh a longtime acquaintance, finally got to meet in person, Brazilian missionary to Italy, right? So uh, I mean, this is this is the the reality now. So when you look at the Great Commission, it really is um Christians in all parts of the world wanting to reach out and make sure that all the nations are reached.
SPEAKER_01Let me finish with two questions. Um I'll finish by asking you how do you think you will engage your own local context in a different way because you've been to Lausanne? But but just first of all, like as you look back on last week, um what was just some of the highlights um from the week? What do you what do you think you'll remember from last week?
SPEAKER_00I I think the day when um I think it was Tuesday of of of the Congress when um people were invited to wear the traditional dress of their countries. Um seeing the the variety on display was uh was especially moving because it it made me think, oh this you know, it just made me see into the future that moment, you know, at the end of time when when people from every tribe and uh language and nation are going to be bringing their cultural tribute to the feet of King Jesus. Um it was really, really moving to to see that, but at the same time to feel united through all of that variety and beautiful diversity, united in worship together, uh singing praises to King Jesus. That that was um I you know I you know that in your head, but you don't really get a glimpse of that yourself until you're in a situation like that. And when you see it, it's just beautiful. And it gives you a renewed sense of confidence in the power of the gospel because you look at this and say, there's no reason why Christianity should work in every culture in the way that it does, and the way that it enters a culture, challenges that culture, then transforms aspects of that culture, and then brings a refined and beautiful, uh, uh redeemed part of that culture so that so that it's like this diamond that is showing the showcasing the beauty of King Jesus from all these different angles. We're we're not clones, all looking exactly alike as we proclaim the glories of King Jesus. We're we're all in our in our our our beautiful created embodiedness in cultural expressions uh following Jesus and worshiping Jesus. I think I think that that stands out to me as most likely as one of the most most meaningful things, um, alongside some of the relationships and conversations that I was able to have throughout the week. Um when it comes to my own just my own local context, my own ministry, um, I I do think my writing will will be a little bit different, I think, uh in the years to come, in part because I met so many people who um who have who who came to me from different countries, you know, Ethiopia, India, Kenya, you know, different places, Korea, that sought me out to say how much that they had benefited from my writing over the years, whether through my books or through my columns and whatnot. And I, it just really dawned on me the the reach that we have in a global and a globally connected world as to um you know how how many people from other parts of the world may be listening in on things you think you're writing or saying it really with your own context in view. And so I think that that will broaden a bit my just my my thought of who who's reading some of the work that I'm that I'm doing. So that's the first thing. But the second thing is it just it puts a lot of cultural debates in perspective. Um, there's a very there's the polarization, the politicization of the faith in the United States in particular, that uh when you're in connection with the global church, the church worldwide, it's not that it removes or it lessens those conversations. Those conversations are important, you know. What does it mean for us to to to to to show Christ in our particular contexts? But it does, it does relegate them somewhat. It puts them in a in a broader frame to where they don't have an outsized um uh capture of your own imagination uh as much. Um it helps you be able to distinguish secondary issues, um, issues related to political wisdom and prudence and and things like that. It helps you put those in perspective as well, uh, because you just realize there are believers in other parts of the world who have very different um perspectives based on their contexts and based on their own governments and and and the way Christianity is expressed in other in other cultures. Um it it it it helps put some of those hot button political issues, it helps you just put them into that bigger frame and to where they're still hot button and they're still important because it's still part, you know, politics is at the end of the day, it's about loving your neighbor, right? Um and wanting to uh um steward well uh what what you know the the the power that you've been given as a voter in a Democratic Republic, for example. But but it but it it puts it it just it puts that into a broader perspective of what God is doing globally in the world. And uh I I think it it it helps me engage my local context with a little more settled confidence that you know the church is gonna be fine. Jesus is building his church worldwide, countries come and go, empires rise and fall, but the the kingdom is unstoppable, and the church is a beautiful bride that Jesus is still preparing for that that glorious wedding day.
SPEAKER_01That's beautifully said, Trevor. Beautifully said. Um for people who want to uh catch up with you online, you you write for uh Big Eva's Little Brother, uh, the Gospel Coalition, uh Medium Eva, let's say. Uh that's that's one place people can catch up with you. Uh tell us about that and tell us about other ways that people can keep up with you.
SPEAKER_00Yep, you can you can find my column. Uh you can go to Trevorwax.com, it'll just take you to my column at the Gospel Coalition. Um, but also I've got lots of you know books and prayer guides and all kinds of resources that it should be available wherever you you get books. So that that's another way to keep in touch with me as well. And for podcasters? For podcasters, I have a podcast called Reconstructing Faith. It is uh in sort of a narrative style, documentary style podcast. We've done two seasons, and we have a third season that I am uh preparing right now for the future that uh hopefully will come out in the winter of this year.
SPEAKER_01It is brilliantly done. I I highly recommend uh adding that to your podcast rotation. Uh if you haven't already, uh, do find that on your podcatcher of choice. But Trevan Wex, you've been so generous with your time. Thank you for joining us.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much, Glenn.