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SPEAKER_03Well, hello and welcome back to the Speak Life Podcast. My name is Thomas Thoroughgood, media producer at Speak Life. And if you've been listening to the podcast for a while, you'll probably know that our creative director, Nate Morgan Locke, hosts a YouTube channel called Reformed Mythologist, engaging with stories and storytelling from a Christian perspective. And as Halloween approaches, we thought it might be helpful to address the controversial subject of horror films. Horror films are immensely popular, especially with young people, and I don't need to tell you that they grapple with dark and often confronting ideas. And in this conversation, we ask, what are horror films? Can Christians watch them? How can we engage with horror and the people who enjoy it? Now we'll reiterate this in the episode, but it's important to say that all media consumption is optional, and what might be okay for one Christian might be a stumbling block for another. So we want to be mindful about all the things that we watch, whether it's horror or otherwise. Joining this discussion is Toby Watts. Toby is a Christian who makes films with his brother, Fionn. They wrote and directed the 2020 feature-length horror film Playhouse, set in a remote Scottish castle. We'll be hearing more about that along with some of Toby's other projects. Nate also very kindly invited me to join the conversation. Engaging with horror storytelling from a Christian perspective is something I've been trying to do on my personal YouTube channel. So it was great to be able to have this conversation, and I hope you find it helpful. Without further ado, let's dive in.
SPEAKER_02Hello, Reform Mythologist Nate Morgan Locke here. I don't know the first thing about horror films, but I'm joined by two men who know at least a little bit. One of them is film director Toby Watts. Toby, hello. Hi there. And the other is uh, for full disclosure, Thomas Thoroughgood of this parish, who has worked on the Reform Mythologist channel before, but who is in his own right a horror film critic and YouTuber extraordinaire. So I'm really excited to get into this conversation about horror films uh and uh what we can do with them. Uh how as Christians we ought to think about horror, whether this is a genre which is uh worth our attention, bearing in mind that media consumption is optional and that you are under no obligation to watch any horror movies. Uh Thomas, uh I'll start off with you. Uh what is a horror film?
SPEAKER_03Oh, great question. Um well I I tend to answer that by saying I think it's any film that consistently creates an atmosphere of dread. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, Toby. There's often a bit of a blurring of the boundary between horror and thriller. We know what tension is, and that that's something a thriller film can do. It's something like a Jason Bourne film has a lot of tension, you're like you're watching it, and it's really tense and suspenseful. But horror, I think it's this kind of suspense that something horrific is going to happen, and it sustains that for the course of the film. Because horror is a bit of a tricky subject and and is maybe a bit of a dirty word sometimes to some people. People are often reluctant to use it as a label. So I remember talking to someone who saw A Quiet Place and they said it was really good, and I was like, Oh, wow, I I heard that was a horror film, and he was like, Oh, I wouldn't call it a horror film, I'd call it call it more a thriller. Now it it totally kind of is a horror film, it may not be the scariest horror film, but it's very much working in that space. Uh something like Jaws or Alien as well. So it's quite broad, it's not just supernatural horror, which is what I think people are tend to go to, or torture or anything like that. Uh anything really psychological creature feature that consistently creates that kind of atmosphere of dread. But I don't know what what you guys think about that definition. I've just kind of come up with that.
SPEAKER_02Uh Toby, what do you think consistently creates an atmosphere of dread? That's a that's a pretty sharp definition. Toby, what are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think that's a really good definition. Um, I'm glad you went for an emotion as a way of describing what the genre is, um, because some people might be tempted to say, you know, talk about plot or the story in some way and and delineate it that way. But I I do absolutely agree that horror films primarily are trying to elicit dread. I would also, you know, add in words like horror and terror, uh, extreme levels of fear and anxiety and so on. Anything that's kind of to the extreme on that end, I would say that's that's what horror films are trying to do, and if a film's trying to do that, then I think it's fair to call it a horror. I think also, you know, there are tropes within horror that can help us to identify what what is a horror film. There's often a debate around silence of the lambs, you know, is that a thriller or is it a horror film? Because thrillers often have this sort of uh investigative um criminal aspect to it, uh, where a crime has been committed and someone's trying to uncover what's going on. Horrors don't necessarily have that, they can be a lot more irrational, um, there doesn't need to be as much of an investigation, it's more of an escape. Yeah, the the debate will always rage on that what's the fine line between thriller and horror. There is a lot of blurring, but I think if we stick with it it's really trying to trying to bring out these emotions uh in people that we've discussed, then I'm happy that's that's what a horror film is.
SPEAKER_02So, horror and thriller. Um is Thriller by Michael Jackson, is the music villa video for Thriller actually a horror rather than a thriller? Hmm. That's a deep question. That's that's a very profound question. It is. I'm gonna think about that for some time now. Toby, why don't you tell us a little bit about your experience, uh personal experience with sort of making horror films and yeah, how you sort of got into it and you know why you've chosen that genre, I suppose, as your as your thing.
SPEAKER_01It's an interesting uh routine, actually, because when I star I I kind of accidentally came into horror in some ways. I've always enjoyed horror films. Um I went through probably a period where I didn't watch any and I and I was you know really reluctant to go there, but something changed at some point and I got really back into them. And as I was developing my filmmaking career, me and my brother who I worked with, we were working on our first idea for a film. Really, it was a s it was a supernatural thriller with you know elements of horror, you might say. But what happened was so we made the film um and we were careful not to make it too much of a horror because just that wasn't what the story you know was was really about. But what happened is when it was being packaged up by our sales agent uh and and we were in talks with distributors and they were talking about posters and trailers, they were they were saying, oh no, we you know it's a horror, we need to make it a horror, that's where the audience is, and that that's how people will recognise this. And and we we thought, oh wow, actually, there's this whole this whole other end of the filmmaking chain, really, where it's so much about the audience and their expectations that we realize there's a there's a huge audience for horror in a way there isn't for thriller. People kind of gravitate towards horror and what that does. And I think somehow we started to realise, okay, this is a great the great way in for us, just from a purely pragmatic point of view. You can make horror films very low budget without famous cast and expensive set pieces. Um that the audiences are almost like that low budget aesthetic. So it's a great way into horror films when you're not established. Yeah, but also there's just such a big audience for it. So we kind of tumbled into it after after making that first film and it being labelled and pushed out as a horror film. We realised maybe maybe this is the way we want to go.
SPEAKER_02And that is interesting that people fans, the audience define themselves as horror movie fans, and that that's a label that they can wear and and be sort of proud of.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think with horror it's an incredibly imaginative and broad genre, um, and because of that you get a lot of you know incredible inventiveness around characters and fantasy worlds in a way I think you don't get with thriller, and therefore there's a lot more of a commercial element to horror. You know, people can buy into it, and you know, I follow people on social media whose whole rooms are decked out with all the different merchandise from all the horror films, the posters and bed sheets and life-size dolls, and it it's it's this whole fun cosplay thing to it. Whereas the you just don't get that with with many other genres, other than perhaps you know, Marvel and that kind of thing. Um it horror just open opens up a whole identity for people.
SPEAKER_02Thomas, let me come back to you as a um what I'm gonna call the horror expert. Um what so we talked about obviously horror films, that's a you know, it's a it's a visual medium, it's visual storytelling, maybe these aesthetics lend themselves to visual um depiction and portrayal. But obviously there were horror stories and ghost stories and all that sort of stuff way before they ever made it onto uh onto the screen. Where do you think that comes from as a genre outside of film, particularly?
SPEAKER_03Well, no, I'm gonna do what what you guys from uh from uh Speak Life and Reform Mythologists have taught me. I'm gonna go right back to Genesis. Um and I think there we kind of see the the origin of horror, really, because every horror film, every horror story has one place that's off limits, one book that should not be opened, one word that should not be said, one room that you should not go into. And it's almost become a bit of a cliche because we're kind of screaming at the characters on screen, don't open that door, you know, uh it's gonna be bad. But they always do it, yeah, and that's exactly the experience you get when reading Genesis 3 that it's clearly marked this tree. God has told Adam and Eve not to eat from it. But what do they do? They go there, and actually that's that's something so fundamental about human nature. What what are we like? We have a tendency to press the self-destruct button, and so I think you see there the origin of fear and shame, and and actually flowing out from that, Cain and Abel is kind of the first slasher story. Okay. Um it even you know, Cain has even described his face as downcast, so he's this kind of masked killer who's wandering around. So I suppose, in terms of where does this idea of of fear come from, I think we'd have to go right back to the beginning. But it seems as you look around folklore and stories from around the world and down through history, whether they would have called them horror stories or whether they just contain elements that we looking at them now would consider to be horrific is a different question. But this idea of of grappling with dark forces and and recognising that there are dark forces in the world. Lots of cultures talk about dragons, for instance, um, and view those as a pretty terrifying thing. We all die. So we've all, as humans, have been forced to contend with the fact that there is darkness in the world. And so I think it's very natural that our storytelling, if it's reflecting something of reality, it would be disingenuous in a sense if it didn't grapple with some of those darker themes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. There was a quotation uh from a horror film director called Scott Derricson. I've no idea who that is. Either of you know that name?
SPEAKER_01He's done some big movies like Sinister, more recently, The Black Phone with Ethan Hawke, but also Doctor Strange, so a big Hollywood uh director who works in horror.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so Scott Derricson, uh he is apparently a professing Christian, so he said this. To me, the horror genre is the genre of non-denial. It's about admitting that there is evil in the world and recognising that there is evil within us and that we're not in control, and that the things we are afraid of must be confronted in order for us to relinquish that fear. I think the horror genre serves a great purpose in bolstering our understanding of what is evil and therefore better defining what is good. So weirdly, I is he is he sort of saying unless you have horror as a category and as a genre, you actually will m misread the world. If it's the genre of non-denial, then without horror you are living in denial. Is that fair in a way? And I just want to make the point as uh kind of the argument for horror films, I suppose, as strongly as possible before we kind of try to kind of take it down.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think that's I think it's I think it's spot on, and I know he also said uh something around you know, we don't need a lot more horror in the world, but we do need a lot more reckoning with horror and evil. And I and I think I think what he's getting at is you know that horror films enable us to do that in a safe way. You know, because at the end of the day, stories are not just about life as we want to see it, it's about life as it is and helping us to have metaphors to process that and get a get our get our heads around what's going on. So I yeah, I think I think he's absolutely right about non-denial that you know horror films are showing life in all its kind of raw uh nature. And and helping people also, you know, when you think about trying to create emotional experiences that help people to experience the light and the good in the world, that actually can f it feels a lot more intense when you've been in a very dark place. And I think that Jesus kind of understands that as well. You know, when he talks about you know those who have been forgiven much, love much, um there there is a sense that you know those who've been to the darkest places in themselves and in the world know more of God's grace and God's God's light. And if we just sit in our little Christian bubbles over here just consuming so-called Christian media and avoiding the darkness, then there is a risk that actually we're not being honest about how big God's glory is, how big his love and his grace is, and we're gonna miss out on that as well.
SPEAKER_00Have you ever thought about how your bank uses your savings? What if I told you there's a fully regulated Christian bank that aligns your money with your faith? When you open a Kingdom Bank savings account, you help to provide vital mortgages for churches, Christian ministries, and gospel workers who might struggle to secure one elsewhere. Whether saving for yourself or on behalf of your church, your savings will support Christian ministries across the UK. And when you're ready to take your money out, you get it back with interest. If your spending and giving reflect your faith, shouldn't your savings as well? Open a savings account with Kingdom Bank today and put your money where your heart is. Visit Kingdom.bankslash speaklife. Kingdom Bank is a member of the FSCS and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so thought a bit more about sort of horror in the abstract in terms of you know trying to categorize it, uh relate it to other genres, look at some of its features and you know potentially the theological uh underpinnings of it or the arguments that could be made in favour of it. Let's get into some specifics. What's your favourite horror film? Thomas, you go for it.
SPEAKER_03Oh man. Yeah, I think a a film that really uh opened my eyes to what it can do was Us, the the Jordan Peele film that came out in 2019. I mean it's just incredible. Jordan Peel obviously comes from a comedy background. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, Nate, because you've you've you're quite into comedy, why it is that he was able to segue, it seems, so naturally, into directing horror. And I wonder if it's something to do with the fact that both horror and comedy have have quite visceral impacts on on the audience. Uh, but I remember seeing that, and it's just got so much going on about the idea of doppelgangers, it's called Us, which is also like, is it US? Is it about America? And it it has a Bible verse, Jeremiah 11, 11, that keeps coming up, which is about kind of the judgment of God. So it's like it's bringing together all these themes, and it's actually quite genre-defined. Get out, his previous film, I think, was nominated for a Golden Globe for best comedy, but it was kind of a horror, and and I think that indicates how his films are actually kind of hard to put in boxes because they're combining all these elements. But that was yeah, Us was a film that I remember really getting under my skin.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_03What about you, Toby?
SPEAKER_01Um, for me, it would definitely be Candyman. I absolutely love that film. I I think it's you know, if there is a near-perfect horror film, that one for me is great. It's got wonderfully haunting music throughout a brilliant score by Philip Glass. Uh, and obviously, you know, in horror films, the score carries so much of the emotion. Um it's it's brilliant. But also, I think you know, the mythology around Candyman, it it brilliantly deals with race and deprivation in America, but in the most unself-conscious way, you know, and I think that's where the new Candyman film fell down. It was incredibly self-conscious um around uh issues of the day, and uh and I just felt it just got in the way of a good story. Um whereas the original Candyman, you know, he's this urban legend figure that appears and stalks people once they give themselves over and repeat his name in the mirror. But he's also an incredibly romantic villain, the way he that he kind of seduces his victims and and and plays with them, as well as it him being incredibly uh vicious and and and and committing gory crimes, there is a sense of he's like a a lover as well to the to the protagonist as well. And I I think that's endlessly fascinating that you're drawn in to feel some kind of empathy for him because he's been created out of terrible trauma in in his past many years previously. And so you you you you do kind of get on his side and start to under understand his plight, and yet you're repulsed by what he's doing. And I think because of those textures um around the evil villain, when you do that in a film, I think it causes the audience to just have a have a bit of a deeper experience um as well as all the surface level shock and horror.
SPEAKER_02So there we go. Uh I'm not gonna let you mention any other horror films, um, just those two. So Us and Candyman, literally the only two horror films. Now give us some more as well, Thomas. Something else, maybe that's that's you're itching to talk about. If you were trying to convince someone that horror films it's a legitimate genre and this is not just good filmmaking, but it's also you know it's a good thing to engage with this idea. Not just entertaining, but it's a good idea. What what would you say?
SPEAKER_03I'm a big fan of Wes Craven. He's often considered one of the the best horror film directors. He came from quite a strict uh Baptist upbringing, which he seemed to reject later in life, but it's interesting to see how he he held on to certain tenets that he almost certainly received from his faith, or or certainly from from the Christian culture around him. So he said, I don't like horror films that end with general massacres, a survivor crawling out at the end and the bad guy jumping on him for the very last scare. I read so many horror scripts that have that kind of bleak ending. They say villains will win out and the most brutally powerful survive. In my work, I'm continually fighting that. And that's really interesting when you put that together with probably one of his most well-known films, Nightmare on Elm Street. It's an incredibly powerful film about this this obviously this killer who who stalks people in dreams. I mean, this is a slight spoiler, so cover your ears if you don't want to if you if you want to go into the film knowing nothing. But Wes Craven wanted the film to end with deliverance. He wanted for for the monster to be defeated and for good to kind of triumph. And what's revealing is the studio, uh, New Line studio who were basically allowing him to make this film, they wanted it to end with a hint that the the bad guy was still around so that they could set up a sequel, basically. So I find that absolutely fascinating that Wes Craven wanted Good to win and to let his characters kind of have the happy ending, whereas the studio wanted to keep them kind of locked in conflict with with the horror. And in the end, uh the result was sort of a compromise because he realised the only way he could get the film made was through this studio. For me, actually, some of the gold of the horror genre is is when you know when the good guys get out, you know, when the monster is defeated, when it captures something of that idea of of deliverance, of light shining in the darkness. And I think you see an element of that in Nightmare on Elm Street.
SPEAKER_02Toby, do you have any others? I mean, obviously Candy Candyman was yeah, it's quite a big one, as you say, might be the perfect horror film, but um any others that have had a had a big impact on you, um, not just as someone who wanted to watch more of them but also end up making them.
SPEAKER_01I think there's a film called uh Twin Peaks Fire Walk With Me, um, which was made after the si series in the the 1990s, late 80s, Twin Peaks, um, but it was telling the the story that uh precedes the the TV series. That's by David Lynch, you know, one of my favourite film directors of all time. And that's an interesting film because some might say, Oh, it's not a horror film, but I think in many ways it is really. It's it it explores the horror around incest, around demon possession, um, around the nightmare of Of the kind of suburban American family appearing all nice on the surface and the lovely kind of prom queen girl, but actually underneath that is you know is drugs and serious uh domestic harm going on. But I think David David Lynch is a real master of getting capturing the textures of lightness and darkness, even within the same scene, within the same moment. And I think for me that a film like that has really shaped some of my approach to filmmaking in that if I can e even get 10% of the way towards playing that range of notes on on the filmmaking piano, if you like, that that David Lynch gets, then I'm doing I'm doing well.
SPEAKER_02You can make films with a piano, that sounds incredible. Um you probably can now, can't you, with these computers these days. AI. AI piano, yeah. Back to that idea of the visual storytelling. So that um there are certain props, masks, um weapons, sort of, etc. costumes which are instantly recognizable as a particular film character, and uh that the history of film is you know the horror has played a huge part in that. And I suppose particularly in the 80s and 90s, where the you've got some incredibly strong visual images being kind of created. You mentioned Nightmare on Elm Street, think of the Halloween franchise and um uh was it Jason? Is he the guy in Halloween with the mask? Is that right?
SPEAKER_03Mm oh, Michael Myers. Sorry, um the name had gone for a second. Yeah, Halloween's Michael Myers, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02So who's Jason then? Have I just made him up? He he's Friday the 13th. He's Friday. Oh, is that Freddie? Who's Freddie the Kruger? Freddie Krueger then Nightmare on Elm Street.
SPEAKER_03That's Nightmare on Elm Street. Nightmare Elm Street and then Ghost Faces. They've all merged in.
SPEAKER_02I've got a basically a horror film multiverse that's going on. I was gonna say, yeah, there's there's something there. There's a major crossover event that's happened in my head, at least, with putting all these films together. Toby, let me just ask you a little bit about Playhouse.
SPEAKER_01Was that your first feature? Yeah, that was that was our first feature film. Um I'd I'd made a number of short films um and and lots of music videos, corporate videos, uh promos, documentaries, uh, things like that. Um but but really the goal was always to make a feature film, and Playhouse was the culmination of of the years into that first one.
SPEAKER_02Wow. And yeah, I mean, just such a lot that's involved in you know making a feature film. I mean, it's it's not just making a short film but longer, is it? How did you sort of tackle that in terms of you know obviously you said you you m made this and produced it with your brother, but yeah, how did you first get the idea for what you wanted to do with that story?
SPEAKER_01With low budget filmmaking or micro budget filmmaking or zero budget filmmaking, how whatever label you want to give it. When you're when you're trying to make your first film and you're you're thinking it needs to be under a hundred thousand and preferably a lot lower than that, you're almost reverse engineering the idea from what do you have available? Um, what's at your disposal? And we had this amazing location, Freswick Castle in the north of Scotland. We knew that we wanted to film there, that wasn't going to be a problem, we weren't gonna have to pay for that. Well, we grew up there because actually it's uh it's technically our family home. Our dad bought it in the 90s uh and has been renovating it ever since. And so we knew everything about this the castle and the location, the beaches, the the sheds, and uh everything that was around, even features on the wall or in the floorboards, we could remember that there's a hole there. And a lot of these things work they work their way into the story. Um, and that's is partly um because it's fun to to create out of out of constraints like that. Um, because when you're facing the blank page, you've so many choices to make. Why not actually just go go with a few more limited options and be creative with it? But we knew it would add immense production value, and often what's missing or hard to get in a in a low-budget film is great production value. So with the light being so amazing uh and with the setting being so amazing up there, we knew that we'd be off to a good start. But it took us a few years to arrive at a the idea we had because we went through various cycles of drama, uh comedy, and all sorts of ideas. But the the one ingredient that that lingered through our development process over years was this relationship between a father and a daughter who are a bit at odds, uh, and eventually we landed on on something that we thought suited the tone and the atmosphere of the area in winter, which was this kind of supernatural thriller horror film.
SPEAKER_02Let's get right into the heart of this conversation. Enough enough beating around the bush and messing about. Should Christians watch horror films?
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, from my perspective, you know, maybe I'm biased. They should they should watch it, otherwise they go out of business. Um but no. I mean I think it's an interesting should Christians watch horror? Um I like to think of horror films just on the surface level a bit like going for a a curry, in that when you go for a curry, you've always got two kinds of people. There's always a person who will loves a chick in corma, it's very mild and coconutty, no spice, and that's that's a great night out for them, and anything more than that would would would be uh a bad idea. But then you've got a person who would love the chick in Vindaloo or the Madras, and you know, having a corma is a nightmare. So uh for them, a good night out is to have something really spicy. Both valid experiences you can have at the curry house. In some ways, I think horror is like that, in that some people they only respond to more visceral mediums, uh, they they respond to the imagery, the sound, the intensity of that. That's how stories work for them, that's how they see their own reality, uh, and therefore they want to see that reflected back at them in a more intense way. You know, people like roller coasters, some people hate them, but you know, who are we to say that one's right or wrong? So I think on the on the surface, there's just recognizing the variety of different types of people and what speaks to people. Uh, I think some Christians are not contented just watching, you know, so-called Christian media or or essentially avoiding much uh of what's out there in culture but for fear that it's going to contaminate them and so on. Should Christians watch horror? I think I would encourage people if they are, if they have the capacity to have a chicken Vindaloo or a Madras, I think they should try it actually. They should watch a horror film because they might actually learn something that they wouldn't find in another genre. They might actually encounter something of the numinous, you know, which is an idea I'm I'm really interested in. The link between the experience of watching a horror film and the kind of repulsion and fear and disgust on one hand you have, as well as the attraction and the allure and the compelling nature of it, is much like the experience that we see people have in the Word, you know, with God, that they're frightened on one level but also drawn to Him. And I wonder if sometimes in horror films what's really happening is people are coming into contact with something well beyond themselves, outside of the materialistic realm, and they are drawn to that, and they don't can't necessarily put their finger on it, and they want more and more of it. And I wonder if some Christians would actually benefit from stretching their themselves and their emotional range of life by by making themselves vulnerable to to a horror film.
SPEAKER_02Uh so the sequel to Playhouse is going to be called Curry House. Um Curry House. Thomas Thomas, let me put the same question to you in terms of should Christians watch horror films? I think there are many Christians who will be familiar with their Bibles and will be aware of passages which talk about, you know, whatsoever is lovely and whatsoever is admirable and praiseworthy. Think about those things. So why would Christians spend their time looking at things which aren't those things, which are in fact distortions of the good or which are um horrible?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, great question. And it it is a controversial area, isn't it? And I I guess I wouldn't expect um full agreement on it at all. And I think it's something that is people probably work out on a personal basis. There are some things that I'd be uncomfortable to watch, but I know other Christians have watched those. There are some of the things that I am comfortable watching that lots of Christians would say, No, I I don't want to go near that. And in a sense, I'd I'd be maybe be a little bit more cautious than than Toby, or just add the caveat that there are plenty of horror films that I wouldn't want to go near, especially when it tips more into the exploitation side of things, where it seems to be not just depicting violence but kind of glorifying it, or it feels like the film's kind of enjoying that. When it has more of a sadistic quality, that makes me uncomfortable. So I suppose I wouldn't frame it of should Christians watch horror in a sense, you know, it's not for everyone, it's quite a niche genre, and I I I probably wouldn't. My goal with my YouTube channel isn't kind of to make more horror fans, but I suppose is the genre saying something of value? And I completely agree with Toby that I think there are things that horror can say uh potentially that no other genre can. And it's interesting that Philippians' verse you quoted, mate, whatever is good, whatever is true. Also included in that is whatever is true. And if we're honest, uh if in considering the full truth of what this world is like, which the Bible is, you know, read read the book of Judges, and I I would say there's a lot of horror in that, uh in the book of Revelation as well, because we are living in a in a world where there is a diabolical enemy. My goal isn't necessarily to make more people watch horror or encourage more people to watch horror, but I think we do need to have a wider conversation about there is horror in this world, and I think we need to kind of reckon in that with that in some way. The thing that getting into horror films has helped me with the most is just consider the radical nature of uh the most horrific, the most horrific event in history is the crucifixion, isn't it? That on the cross you you are seeing Jesus take take all the horror, all the sin on himself, and that he doesn't go there in spite of his divinity, but he that is where his glory is being revealed. Uh that that in the deepest darkness uh keep going because he he bursts out into resurrection life on the other side. So there's something deeply profound about that, that at the centre of our faith is an utterly horrific image, and yet it is also the most glorious thing, and that shows us something about what God does with horror. I don't know, sorry, very garbled thoughts there, but I guess I I'm cautious to a degree, and I'm conscious that for some people it would be unwise to watch certainly some of these films, just as you know, Breaking Bad I think is one of the best TV series of all time. But I completely understand if someone who struggles with addiction doesn't want to watch it, even though the show doesn't glorify drug use. I mean, you come away from it with the opposite message, but some people because of their dispositions might find that an unhelpful thing to watch. You're always saying, Nate media consumption is optional, and I think we need to be discerning about everything we watch, and it's actually the genres like romantic comedy that I'm kind of more suspicious of sometimes because they kind of they might present you know having an affair as a completely fine thing to do, and um that's almost more insidious in a way because the film dresses it up as a very fluffy thing, but pr but it's actually an awful message. Whereas horror, I think our guard is up a bit more, and the morality of a lot of horror films is actually clear-cut. It's kind of like, yeah, there's there's evil and uh it needs to be defeated. And there's something quite refreshing about that actually, the lack of moral ambiguity when so many Disney villains now are people who are misunderstood or something like that, for a horror film to say, no, there is something called evil with a capsule E. So yeah, caution, but I think there's there's something of value in this genre. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Do you have any other thoughts on that, Toby?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that you know, there is a great place for horror films because they keep the they keep God on the agenda, they keep the idea that there could be something outside of what we see in front of us uh that that could be real. Um and I think it's interesting that in our increasingly secular or disinterested age that we have, there's such a a a fan base and an interest in horror, um, and that never seems to go away really. The trends change and what people are interested, interested in in particular changes. But people are always interested to see supernatural horror, ghosts, um, all of these things on the screen. And I think that's interesting. Like, what what is it people are actually seeking? Um, if people didn't think these were real, would they be that frightened of them? Why do they want to go and and kind of tempt fate and to be scared by something? And I wonder if it's because people are lacking such an amount of uh spiritual depth in their lives, horror films can come in and actually give people an experience of something supernatural, something beyond themselves, and hopefully leave people when they go out of the cinema or turn off the tele thinking, I'm glad I don't live in that world, but if I if I was in that world, you know, what would I do? What how would I get out of that situation? What would I call upon to deal with that? So I feel there's an inherently, and and as Thomas said, that there's an inherently spiritual element to them, but also a moral. They're very moral films because the framework and the rules of the game are established so well that it's it's a great playground for Christian storytellers, but also a great um medium to be communicating in culture as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, just one thing on that. I I saw hereditary with um a friend who's probably like the staunchest atheist I know, and um afterwards he just turned to me and he said, Oh yeah, I'd never do a Ouija board or seance or anything like that. And I was like, Oh, interesting. Because we both had that experience of watching this quite scary film together about showing the pretty terrible consequences of of dabbling with with the demonic, because none of neither of us could deny the kind of reality of the fear that we were feeling during that film, that was a great springboard for a conversation about spiritual things. So, yeah, back to the Scott Derrickson thing about the the genre of non-denial. These films go there, and they may not necessarily express it uh in ways that accord with with Christian understandings of of the demonic and life after death, but they are it is one of the few genres that's actually raising these sorts of questions about the nature of evil and mortality and and those kinds of things. So, yeah, some some interesting evangelistic conversations can come out of watching watching a horror film with your friends, potentially.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I would 100% agree with that. In I think when you're trying to engage with people, it's great if you can ask a good question that opens up a really good conversation. And I'm not sure you could have a better start to a conversation than saying, Do you like horror films? Because if someone it doesn't matter what someone says, they can say, Oh no, but there's usually a reason. And it might be something like I was, you know, having a sleepover at my friend's house and they put on, you know, uh this horror film, and it really terrified me. And I've actually, you know, I've really had to stay away from that stuff ever since. You can then go into that a little bit by sort of saying, But you know, what have you found that's comforted you? You know, that was a thing that was terrifying and scary. What is it that was uh was providing comfort and helping you get over it? Because it you it's confronting, it's giving you something which is difficult. Or they might share stories of, you know, yes, I've really enjoyed them, I love this and I love that. Okay, so again, why what is it about that story and that uh mythos that engages you and how do you think that relates to the world we actually live in? We know how does the what if of the film relate to the what is of your ordinary life? And that all storytelling gives us an opportunity to do that, but as you both mentioned, the the spectral uh realm is being often displayed to us. I mean, obviously there are loads of horror films that don't have a kind of supernatural dimension to them, but uh so often they do open up a conversation about the spiritual, which provides an opportunity for a conversation about uh the Holy Spirit and you know, God Himself who has uh taken on flesh in order to to deal with evil and to kind of join us. If someone's uh feeling anxious, I think, about oh, I don't want to read stuff that's got demons in it, well I'm sorry, all the gospels are now unavailable to you as reading material. But the great news is Christus victor. Christ has has won the victory over that, and that is the actual world we live in. The world we currently live in, in which this conversation is happening, in which people are watching this YouTube video is the world in which Christ as the eternal God has dealt Satan a fine uh a fatal blow, and uh that uh we do not need to fear evil. So I think yeah, there there are opportunities for conversations. Uh but I do like that uh kind of the Curry House analogy, but people uh have got different dispositions, people have got different experiences, and they're they're gonna be able to cope with uh uh with different things. And as I always say, you're under no obligation to watch these kinds of stories. You don't have to. It's not that you should, there's an ought, it's an obligation. It's uh it might be a possibility for you if that's the sort of thing uh that you're gonna find uh helpful in your Christian life. Um but yeah, thank you for a great conversation, guys. Um Thomas, uh where can people find you and your your work in the the horror film genre?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, if you just go to YouTube and type in Thomas Thoroughgood, my name um with a T, um then uh you can find uh the video essays I do mo mostly kind of around horror and sci-fi things, and I've done a a few short films on there as well, but nothing at at the level of of our friend Toby here. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, yes, and when you're typing in Thomas uh Thorogood, it will present you with Thomas the tank engine. So just uh avoid all of that and go straight for Thoroughgood. And as I say, some of the best uh video essays uh I think I've ever seen in terms of engaging with film uh and television. God bless you. Well, that means a lot coming from you, Nate.
SPEAKER_03You're you're the the reformathologist himself.
SPEAKER_02So well, there we go. Uh Toby, um, what's how can people keep up to date with the stuff you're doing? Uh what's coming up from you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um actually we've got a film and a new feature film coming out next week, I think. Oh wow. Um which is very exciting. Um it's gonna hit Amazon Prime soon, and I d I don't know when they they're not telling us at the moment, but there's uh a new platform called Found TV, uh which is all about found footage, um, and that launched this month. And so look out for my new film called Black Daruma, uh, which is coming onto that platform on the 16th of October, uh, which by the time this goes out may be past. Fabulous.
SPEAKER_02Uh well, thank you very much for a wonderful conversation. And uh yes, we'll look forward to chatting again soon. Do check out those links. Um, there's some really great content there, but do remember media consumption is optional. You are under no obligation to watch any horror slasher, horror slasher, horror slasher thriller films. I've been Reform Mythologist Nate Morganlock. I'm glad you are here.
SPEAKER_03Well, there we go. Thank you so much for listening. It was a joy to have Toby Watts on the podcast. We're so grateful for his time, and the links to his work are in the show notes. And if you'd like to watch the video for this conversation, plus the other work that Nate and Eleanor have been doing on the Reformed Mythologist channel, you can go to youtube.com forward slash at ReformedMythologist. So do go and check that out. And do subscribe to the Speak Life Podcast on your podcatcher of choice. You'll be the first to know it when we bring out a new episode. Thanks for listening, and we will be back soon.