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SPEAKER_04Have you ever thought about how your bank uses your savings? What if I told you there's a fully regulated Christian bank that aligns your money with your faith? When you open a Kingdom Bank savings account, you help to provide vital mortgages for churches, Christian ministries, and gospel workers who might struggle to secure one elsewhere. Whether saving for yourself or on behalf of your church, your savings will support Christian ministries across the UK. And when you're ready to take your money out, you get it back with interest. If your spending and giving reflect your faith, shouldn't your savings as well? Open a savings account with Kingdom Bank today and put your money where your heart is. Visit kingdom.bankslash speaklife. Kingdom Bank is a member of the FSCS and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority. Hi, I'm Glenn from Speak Life. We like to see all things through the lens of Jesus. I missed it the first time I saw it. When Justin Welby was interviewed by Alistair Campbell back in 2016. It was for GQ magazine, and it was a very robust interchange, and I enjoyed it a lot.
SPEAKER_01Will you go to heaven?
SPEAKER_04Yes. Will I go to heaven? That's up to you. They're roughly the same age. They were both at Cambridge together. They can both do grumpy old men quite well. And Alistair Campbell, although he's famous for saying that we don't do God when he was Tony Blair's spin doctor, he does describe himself as a pro-faith atheist. And it was a really interesting interchange for GQ politics back in the day. And I think largely it was interesting because it was very theological. It wasn't particularly political. Whereas on the rest is politics podcast that's just come out, uh Justin Welby comes alive when he talks about politics, and it's really quite joyless when he talks theology. We'll see that in a second.
SPEAKER_02Gives us what Peter calls an eternal and inextinguishable hope.
SPEAKER_04But this sparky conversation back in the day between Alistair Campbell and Justin Welby was genuinely entertaining and quite enlightening at times.
SPEAKER_02What sets being a Christian apart is the reality of Jesus Christ. It's God becoming human, living a human life, being fully human and fully God, dying completely, rising from the dead, being present with us now.
SPEAKER_01And you believe that absolutely. Yes. That Mary existed, and Mary was a virgin. Yes. And Jesus was the son of God.
SPEAKER_04Yes. He's not a Jordan Peterson, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_01And I Are you surprised? That you believe it. Yeah. I'm surprised, yeah, I am, because I I can't believe it. I'm not surprised you believe it, because you're the Archbishop of Canterbury.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, quite. I'd be very, very worried if you didn't believe we're not in an episode of yes prime minister. No, no, we're not. No. But But I find it very hard. I find it very hard, quite regularly. In all things, God works for the good of those who love him, who walk according to his purposes.
SPEAKER_01And we So I mean he doesn't work for those who don't.
SPEAKER_02No, it doesn't say that. That's other bits of the Bible.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So God does me? Even if I don't do God. That's very well put. That is a joke. But is he?
SPEAKER_02Yes, of course he does.
SPEAKER_01And how does he do me?
SPEAKER_02Because he knows you, he loves you, he wants you to know. I mean, the point about being a Christian is not a witness to a bunch of rules about things we must and mustn't do. It's a witness to the love of Jesus Christ who reaches out and wants us to know his love and to follow him with the assurance of his love.
SPEAKER_04There were some great moments, including Justin Welby saying, Which God don't you believe in? to uh Alistair Campbell. Now, last week on the Rest is History podcast, which Alistair Campbell co-hosts alongside Rory Stewart, um, they retrod uh much of the same terrain. They spoke about when Justin Welby discovered that the man he thought was his biological father was not his biological father.
SPEAKER_02It was a real identity crisis, and yet he says My identity is in Jesus Christ, not in DNA.
SPEAKER_04He gave his testimony about how he came to faith himself.
SPEAKER_02In Kenya, there was a sense that of the re I met in the people there, people who knew God not by dogmatic understanding, but as a personal encounter. And it was back at Cambridge in my second year that someone explained that to me and what that on the cross and in the person of Jesus from birth to resurrection and ascension, um we see who God is, and God comes to meet us. We don't find God. And we cannot know God except by revelation, and that's in John's gospel.
SPEAKER_04He spoke of his mother's own transformation through faith, going from alcoholism to Christ.
SPEAKER_02Her character changed. She be she was liberated by faith. She was free to be who she was best at being without the booze.
SPEAKER_04And he spoke of his leadership role in the church as a conservative role that is scripture-driven.
SPEAKER_02I am a conservative in reading the Bible, seeking to see that the church influences the world in a way that God has revealed to be good, particularly in the person of Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_04How conservative is he in leading the church and in reading the Bible? Well, that was really put to the test when Alistair Campbell asked the question about gay sex again to Justin Welby. You see, back for the GQ interview, uh Alistair Campbell had asked Justin Welby the question about gay sex. It was a question that was in the air because Tim Farron had become the Liberal Democrat leader and he was being asked the question, is gay sex a sin? on a nearly daily basis. And so Alistair Campbell put that question to him seven years ago. Let's just make it really easy now. Is gay sex sinful?
SPEAKER_02Do you know we've done religion, we've done politics. Why am I surprised that you've brought in sex?
SPEAKER_01Because I I feel sorry for Tim Farron. I feel sorry for Tim Farron. He keeps being asked this question, he's the only one who does, so I'm asking you.
SPEAKER_02You know very well that that's a question that I can't give a straight answer to. Why not? Sorry, it's a badly phrased way of answering the question. That was really bad. I should have thought that one through. Because I don't do co blanket condemnation of people. And when I it I haven't got a good answer to the question. I'll be really honest. I haven't got a good answer to the question. I know I haven't got a good answer to the question.
SPEAKER_04That's how he started his answer back in 2017. Did I say 2016? Earlier it was 2017 that he did this GQ interview. Um it's a question I can't answer very well. Have you ever thought about how your bank uses your savings? What if I told you there's a fully regulated Christian bank that aligns your money with your faith? When you open a Kingdom Bank savings account, you help to provide vital mortgages for churches, Christian ministries, and gospel workers who might struggle to secure one elsewhere. Whether saving for yourself or on behalf of your church, your savings will support Christian ministries across the UK. And when you're ready to take your money out, you get it back with interest. If your spending and giving reflect your faith, shouldn't your savings as well? Open a savings account with Kingdom Bank today and put your money where your heart is. Visit Kingdom.bankslash speaklife. Kingdom Bank is a member of the FSCS and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority. Well, Alistair Campbell has given him seven years and he comes back and asks the same question again. How conservative is Justin Welby? How scripture driven is he? Here's how it pans out.
SPEAKER_01And let's now turn to gay sex.
SPEAKER_02I do all the time, really, in the life of the church. And do you have a better answer yet?
SPEAKER_04Do you have a better answer than seven years ago?
SPEAKER_02Yes, I do. You want me to give it? I'd love to hear what it is. You know, this is if there was an equivalent question when Tony Blair was uh in office and he was in an interview, he was asked an equivalent question. You'd be standing in his line of sight going Well, there's your me over there, but he's he's looking very relaxed. No, he's not, he always looks like that.
SPEAKER_04Why is he speaking freely now? Uh well, he is very close to retirement, is is probably the practicality of the situation, and uh feels a freedom to speak his mind now uh that he didn't seven years ago. Is is my yes.
SPEAKER_02What the Archbishop of York and I and the bishops, by majority, by no means unanimous, and the church is deeply split over this, where we've come to is Who's we?
SPEAKER_04It's very ambiguous who we is. Is he saying that the church is deeply split, but the church still we have come to this position? Or is it myself, the Archbishop of York, and a lot of other bishops have come to this position, and that and this is not where the church has come to. Um everybody got the sense from this that Justin Welby was saying the church has come to this particular position. Later on, he clarifies no, this is a private position that Justin Welby has come to. Um but I I think in context he is giving the impression that this is um church doctrine now.
SPEAKER_02Is to say that all sexual activity should be within a committed relationship. And whether it's straight or gay. In other words, we're not stopping the idea, we're not giving up on the idea that sex is within marriage or civil partnership.
SPEAKER_04No, but you're redefining marriage to be gender neutral. You're redefining marriage to be it could be male-male, it could be female-female, or it could be male-female. Um you can have a wedding without a bride, apparently, and you can have a wedding without a groom, apparently. You can have a marriage without a husband, you can have a marriage without without a wife. Um it's a redefinition of marriage, is what he's he's giving here. Uh and he seems to be giving it as the church's position, and then later clarifies that this is his private uh position, but it's the private position that's also held by the Archbishop of York and many other bishops, and by a majority of bishops, he seems to be saying. Um redefinition of holy matrimony. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh or whether marriage is civil or religious. And that therefore we are we've put forward a proposal that where people have been through a civil partnership or a uh same-sex marriage, equal marriage under the 2014 Act, they should be able to come along to their local to a church and have a service of prayer and blessing for them in their lives together. So we accept that. As with all things in the Church of England is always about. And there are some principles we're trying to work on, is that because of conscience, no one, no priest or church should have should be compelled to have these services. Now I think personally the services are this is a long way from church same-sex marriage.
SPEAKER_04It's a long way from same-sex marriage uh for those on the progressive side of the debate who would like to get married in church, I guess it's it it's a long way from that. Um but theologically, doctrinally, um it it is to admit that marriage is by nature a gender-neutral institution. And and saying that as as the Archbishop of Canterbury, even if uh this is just a private opinion, um this seems to be an admission of same-sex marriage um by the most senior clergyman in the church.
SPEAKER_02But there is no doubt that the church is deeply, profoundly divided on this.
SPEAKER_01You you personally haven't have you are you doing those blessings?
SPEAKER_02Uh I've said I won't out of responsibility for the um Anglican communion, where in many parts of the world it's absolutely unable to be able to do that. So that's where you basically have to be a politician. This is where you have to be a politician.
SPEAKER_01Because you've got very different views in very different churches.
SPEAKER_02You have countries around the world where people, even if they don't have it, want the death penalty for people who uh, as they say are gay. But there's less attention to the G, the B, etc. And you have countries where basically they it's legal and the church is involved in taking uh in presiding at same-sex marriages.
SPEAKER_04Now it is important to say I I do not support the death penalty um for uh same-sex activity uh in in any country. And think in particular where capital punishment is applied for certain sexual sins and not others, certain condemned biblical practices and not others, that seems to me an egregious case of my sins are better than your sins. And it's very difficult because um to tell other nations what their um legal system should be uh can sound incredibly imperialistic, incredibly colonial. And so it's a very fraught situation, and to that degree we can sympathize with Justin Welby and his his position there, but he would have a lot more moral authority to speak on this issue if he actually was orthodox and biblical on his doctrine of marriage. So if we want him to speak into these issues in the global south, um, we need him to speak from a sense of moral authority, a sense of moral authority that apparently he believes comes from conservatively reading the Bible in order to lead the church. So if he can conservatively read the Bible and lead the church, I think he will have the authority to speak on those issues about the death penalty. I don't think his view about gay marriage will help him to speak to the global south and say what he thinks and what I sometimes think might need to be said in those situations. He's lost that moral authority to actually have that voice in those conversations. And so he hasn't helped himself to be a positive influence in these matters in the global church because of this issue. I think Vaughan Roberts uh said it really well. He he was just uh interviewed by Dominic Steele on The Pastor's Heart, and he was responding to this very video. Um here's the first thing that Vaughan Roberts said.
SPEAKER_05In one sense, it's not a surprise that that's his personal view. But it is extraordinary that um someone in his role should think it's appropriate. If it is that his personal view, to say so. I mean, and a consecration is asked to um ask the question will you teach the doctrine of the church of England? The doctrine of Christ as the Church of England has receded, and um and will you refute error, and the doctrine of Christ as the Church of England has received is very clear, um, it is the traditional teaching of the church, which is the apostolic teaching that's been held by the church of England throughout the world and down the ages, and the place of the sex is in the marriage of a man and a woman. So here we have the leader of the Church of England saying, I don't agree with the Church of England's doctrine, and not only does that I agree, but the majority of the house of issues don't agree. And then um that is genuine, he's saying at the end, look uh I want to uh uh let me reassure those who still hold to the traditional view there's a place for you in the Church of England. And that's extraordinary that I need to be that the artificial feels he needs to reassure me that me and uh very many thousands like me in the Church of England still have a place in the Church of England, but we're the ones who still hold to the teaching of the Church of England. So it's just increased the crisis that we were already in. If you don't believe it, then you need to argue, and bishops are not those who should be arguing for a change in the doctrine. They are called to hold it, teach it, preserve it, and refute error.
SPEAKER_04I think that's well said, and I I think Vaughan Roberts then goes on to talk about this issue of the criminalization of homosexuality in in some of these countries. What is your comment on the criminality issue?
SPEAKER_05Well, the general point he's making there is is an obvious one that there's a huge cultural difference in the Anglican communion from uh contexts where we where you can't even challenge elements of the LGBT agenda and others where as he says there's criminalization and and calls for the death penalty and so on. I'm I'm certainly not at all in favour. I'm very much against criminalization and uh especially when it's targeted against one particular group or one particular sexual sin and others. I feel the importance of being wary of just wading in into these kind of issues without a great sensitivity that there's been a far too much cultural imperialism and far too many arrogant assumptions that we are right and they are wrong and they are primitive, and often characterizations which are not fair of what is going on. So we've got to be very careful. I'm not in favour, but I love being part of an annuity communion where we will have in our different contexts different strengths, uh different weaknesses, different things we see clearly, different blind spots.
SPEAKER_04Indeed, there are different strengths and weaknesses, and there must be a time and a place for reaching across divides and saying, Oh, do you have a blind spot there? Is there a weakness there? Um but also if if the global south is going to look uh to the West, surely they are going to point out some of our own weaknesses. And surely some of those weaknesses lie in the area of sex. I mean, that that's got to be obvious. And so, in order to continue to have a conversation with the Anglican communion as a whole, um, surely we need to do that thing of conservatively reading our Bible and letting it judge both kinds of culture. Whether the authoritarianism comes from a rainbow alliance that suppresses religious minorities uh in the West, or whether the authoritarianism is a kind of an enforced heteronormativity at the at the point of the sword, at the point of um state power. I think scripture and and I think people submitting to scripture can help one another uh across these boundaries. And and so I I I think Justin Welby is absolutely right to say that there are problems across the communion, but those problems are not going to be helped by capitulating on gay marriage. Let's go back to the rest is politics uh interview and keep going.
SPEAKER_02But we're saying no compulsion on anyone. Churches may opt into doing these. If they don't opt in, they don't do it, and it is a simple service of welcome and blessing. And even that has resulted in an enormous breakdown of relationships in a really sad way, not only across the community, but in the Church of England. For those who are conservative, we keep I am absolutely committed to them having a full and undoubted place in the Church of England. We're not a political party. We don't chuck out people who disagree, because it's God who brings people to faith.
SPEAKER_04By his word, through his spirit. Yeah, it's it's it's God who does that. And it's so odd that it would even be suggested that those who believe the official teaching of the Church of England need to feel as though they actually belong in the Church of England. Well well, yes, we we actually believe in the teaching of the Church of England. And Justin Welby has had to vow three times now. As a deacon, he swore that he believed the doctrine of the Christian faith as the Church of England has received it. As as a priest, he vowed that he would faithfully minister the doctrine and sacraments of the Church, and that he would defend against error. And as a bishop, he agreed to this vow. Will you teach the doctrine of Christ as the Church of England has received it? Will you refute error? And will you hand on entire the faith that is entrusted to you? With the help of God I will. We're in the strange position where the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Archbishop of York, and apparently, according to Justin Welby, a majority of bishops, um, don't believe the things that they have vowed to teach. And then he assures those who do believe the teaching of the Church of England that there still is a place for us in the Church of England. I think I speak for many when I say that's not very reassuring, but let's keep going.
SPEAKER_02And every Christian is a brother or sister in Christ. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. Including people who want the death penalty for being gay. Yes, I may disagree with them and say they're wrong, but you might disagree with members of your family and say they're wrong, but they're still your family. And you might really disagree with them passionately, but they're still your family. And Christians are a family.
SPEAKER_04I mean that's that's that's well said. Absolutely, we need to speak across um some very large cultural divides. And and we need to not assume that white Westerners who are reading the Bible in a way uh unheard of for 1900 years um are the ones who are automatically right. That that sounds a little colonial. Um we we need to lay that to one side and sit again under the scriptures, and we might be wrong about all sorts of things, and and others from different cultures might be wrong about all sorts of things. So it is absolutely right, Justin Welby's desire for reconciliation, reconciliation under the truth, because we are brothers and sisters in one household. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord. There needs to be a submitting really to scripture. We need to reconcile together, but we need to reconcile together under the scriptures, under the authority of the Lord. But I just want to return to that kind of assumption that's going on in the conversation, which is that Justin Welby is having to play the part of a politician, and a politician, and a politician really must just be seeking to grow coalitions and and make alliances, and that leadership must be expressed really in trying to keep lots of parties um together as much as possible, rather than just saying what is true and letting the chips fall where they may. Um it was just interesting to me that two months ago, uh David Davis, uh Tory politician, was on uh the rest is politics with Rory Stewart. David Davis is a conservative with a with a big C, uh conservative politician. Uh he's also a Christian. He also voted against gay marriage, and Rory Stewart really gets the bit between his teeth and and goes after him for that position that that he takes. And it's very interesting that David Davis doesn't really back down. Um he he just says what he thinks and he lets the chips fall where they may.
SPEAKER_03Tell us a little bit about then your views historically, your views on abortion, on gay marriage, and these kind of issues.
SPEAKER_06Well, let's deal with gay marriage because it's the most contentious one. The irony, people tease me. I mean, I've got a lot a lot of gay friends, they tease me, you say, but you you you you gave the speech at one of the first gay marriages, yeah, which I did. Um my point there was more about uh people who uh believe homosexuality is a mortal sin. Uh in which you would find uh a large number of priests and we're saying to them you have to carry out this service.
SPEAKER_03But we're not actually saying that, are we? Because of course it was civilized. We do not have a lot of people. Because it's a civil service.
SPEAKER_06I mean nobody's compelling a priest to the number look at the number of priests are no longer priests. I'm sorry, that's not right. I mean, the and at the time I raised the issue, nobody was interested.
SPEAKER_03I mean, wait, wait, wait, wait, David, let me push back on this. Because I I was passionate in favour of this gay marriage thing. And it's about the separation of church and state. It's about the separation of church and state.
SPEAKER_04And and so in bringing in gay marriage, Rory Stewart is saying, well, absolutely we must separate church and state because we've got two different definitions of marriage going on. Um, okay, well, you you can make that argument, but David Davis is correct in saying bringing in civil gay marriage is going to threaten the established church at its core.
SPEAKER_03Um he's he's he's right about that. What I said to the church and the priests is if you don't want to marry them, that's up to you. That's up to the church. All we're doing is in no, we we don't control the church. In law, this is a marriage and it's a civil marriage.
SPEAKER_06That isn't the law. If you carry out if you carry out marriages, you carry out marriages. Um and uh that's that, I'm afraid. And I again you're just being kind of contrarian. What I tr what I try and do is if a case is unpopular and and and very often it's because it's over-generalised. This is a very good case in point, it's over-generalised, and that people just say, oh well, I know what I want to do, but I forget all the details. Parliament's there to make sure the details are right, so that if you do that, you've got protection for somebody who refuses to to carry out particular institutions or things like a marriage. And uh and so contrarian maybe, it's more I just don't I don't listen, I don't think my profession is very brave. And so I try not to allow myself to flinch if it gets difficult. I try, I don't I'm not always successful, but I try not to.
SPEAKER_04Here's a politician and he gives an unpopular answer, and it it is very unpopular, with Rory Stewart in particular, and with Alistair Campbell. Um, but being a politician does not mean that you necessarily uh play nice with everybody and just keep everybody happy. Um David Davis gives an answer as a politician um that is unpopular. And and yet, uh Justin Welby, um, as uh a clergyman, as a teacher of the scriptures, uh one who must teach the faith that's been handed down to him and and drive away false teaching. Um he answers as a politician, but he answers in a far less robust way than an actual politician like David Davis is. You know, I'm I'm no particular fan of David Davis or the Conservatives. I just picked him because two months ago on this very podcast, uh, David Davis gave a straighter answer to uh the question um than Justin Welby did. Now, since this podcast has gone out, uh lots of people, very understandably, have been very concerned that Justin Welby seems to be presenting his views as though they are the Church of England's views. Well, Lambeth Palace then uh released this statement saying, since the beginning of Living in Love and Faith process, people across the Church of England have been studying, praying, and sharing together about sexuality, identity, relationships, and marriage. That process has revealed profound differences in theological conviction and biblical interpretation, but that does not change the fact that every group and every Christian has a place in the Church of England. Every group, every Christian, does Is there a boundary? Um, like do we do we ever step outside the faith? Do we ever step beyond the parameters of what it is to be a Christian? In his interview on the leading podcast, the Archbishop of Canterbury was asked whether gay sex is sinful. Alistair Campbell was returning to this question, having first put it to the Archbishop in 2017 during an interview for GQ Magazine. In both interviews, Archbishop Justin spoke honestly about the fact that these are complex questions that have caused deep division in the church. In both interviews, he said that what seems most central to him are stable, committed, and faithful relationships, a gender-neutral definition of marriage. And this is right. Back in 2017, Justin Welby also gave a gender neutral definition of marriage, and I missed it, and many, many people missed it. Archbishop Justin was giving a personal view, this is in the most recent podcast that's talking about. Archbishop Justin was giving a personal view that reflects the position now held by himself, the Archbishop of York, and many other bishops regarding sexual intimacy. He has been honest that his thinking has evolved over the years through much prayer and theological reflection, particularly through the living and love and faith process. And he now holds this view sincerely. It reflects his commitment to continuing to welcome love and include LGBTQ plus people more fully in the life of the church. I want to include LGBTQ plus people fully in the life of the church. I just don't think you'd do it by redefining marriage. However, there is no consensus among the bishops on this question, and the church remains deeply divided. Archbishop Justin stressed his absolute commitment to those who hold the traditional view having a full and undoubted place in the Church of England. Again, it is not very reassuring to be told that those who believe what the Church of England teaches do have a place in the Church of England. Don't worry. You do still have a place in the Church of England, those who believe what the Church of England actually teaches, when it's said by people who don't believe what the Church of England actually teaches, even though their job is to teach what the Church of England teaches and to drive out and refute all error. His answer does not indicate a changing of teaching from the House of Bishops. I mean his answer did seem to indicate that. Um I I think anyone Alistair Campbell, I'm sure, went away from this podcast thinking, oh, so that's what the that's what the teaching of the Church of England is now. And I'm sure that most listeners to the Restus Politics podcast went away thinking eg exactly the same. Hence the need for this clarification. This is an ongoing conversation across the church, and Archbishop Justin hopes that the bishops, together with clergy and lady, will keep praying and reflecting on these questions while he goes ahead and just speaks to an audience of millions what his private teaching is and and teaches it in such a way that it it sounds like it is the Church of England teaching and the reassurance that those who disagree with him, don't worry, you still have a place for now in the Church of England. Now let's go back to the GQ interview, because this is what I missed. I I listened to this back when it was out, and I quite enjoyed it as uh as a robust back and forth between Justin Welby and Alistair Campbell. But I missed that he indeed has exactly the same view in 2017 that's just come out in this 2024 podcast.
SPEAKER_02Have a listen. I haven't got a good answer to the question. I'll be really honest. I haven't got a good answer to the question. I know I haven't got a good answer to the question. And that comes from two things. Inherently within myself. The things that seem to me to be absolutely central are around faithfulness, stability of relationship, loving relationships.
SPEAKER_04Faithfulness, stability, loving relationships. And of course he's using completely gender-neutral terms here. It's all about a covenant bond, let's say, but it's all in gender-neutral terms. It's just about faithful, stable relationships. And Alistair Campbell is wise to this. But that could be a man and a man and a woman and a woman. I know it could be. Did you get that? That is the same answer that he's given in 2024. It's not that he has a better answer in 2024. He's got the same answer. It's just that instead of agreeing to Alistair Campbell's words in 2024, he actually owns Alistair Campbell's words as his own words. But he agreed to Alistair Campbell's words back in 2017. Let's go over it again.
SPEAKER_02The things that seem to me to be absolutely central are around faithfulness, stability of relationship, loving relationships.
SPEAKER_04But that could be a man and a man and a woman and a woman. I know it could be. I know it could be, right? He he he's agreeing. He's agreeing utterly that sexual relationships are gender neutral, that sex is irrelevant to sex. Um, which I I do think is it's certainly not the church's position. It's certainly not the Church of England's position, and and he is meant to be leading the Church of England, he's he's meant to be first among equals leading the Anglican communion. He is not saying what he swore to uphold as the teaching of the Church of England, and he's certainly not driving away error. Instead, when error is presented to him, he agrees with it, and seven years later, parrots it back to Alistair Campbell as his better answer. But Lambeth Palace were indeed correct when they clarified, after the 2024 interview, they clarified that this has been Justin Welby's position for the last seven years at least, and he's been on the record for the last seven years at least with a gender-neutral definition of marriage, and I missed that. I think a lot of us missed it. Um, but now he's owning it, and now he's saying, This is my position, it's the Archbishop of York's position. It's a majority of the bishops in the Church of England, it's their position. What a pity.
SPEAKER_02What a pity. I'm also aware and deeply held by the fact that ever since long before Christianity, within the Jewish tradition, the marriage is understood invariably as between man and woman, or in various times, a man and several women, as it happens in the Old Testament.
SPEAKER_04Interestingly, even in polygamy, um, the the women are not married to one another in those relationships. Um the the man is married to wife number one, and the marion is married to wife number two, and the marion is married to wife number three. Wife number three and wife number two are not married together. Um there is still male-female complementarity uh even in those uh sub-optimal arrangements of the Old Testament. Um but here he is saying that he he feels held by a tradition, but it's a tradition that he doesn't want to pass on, it's a tradition he doesn't want to own, it's a tradition I guess he doesn't particularly like. Um he feels held by it, and so as a politician, he he's been trying to get a coalition between a gendered definition of marriage and his new, his novel, gender-neutral definition of marriage. That that's been the politician in him that's been trying to hold this thing together from the outset and from at least 2017. He hasn't actually believed in the traditional position.
SPEAKER_02And I know that the church around the world is deeply divided on this in some places, including the Anglicans and many other churches, not just us, and that we are um and the vast majority of the church is deeply against uh gay sex.
SPEAKER_01So this is where you're having to be a politician Yes.
SPEAKER_04So Welby says the vast majority of the Anglican communion does not agree with him, and Christian tradition does not agree with him, and so Alistair Campbell says, so you're having to be a politician. And yeah, but what kind of politician, what kind of politician says, Yeah, me and my Western liberal progressive friends have one view that is at odds with the Christianity of history and the Christianity of the global Anglican communion. Um, but I have to soldier on as a politician and get this thing through inch by inch by inch by inch, progressing towards the the position that that we're in in the Church of England, though it is out of step with global Anglicanism today, and though it is out of step with the Christian tradition down through history, uh what kind of politician do you want to be? I thought you were actually a spiritual leader, and you were given a deposit of faith to pass on. That's what we've been given. We haven't been given a political task to try and incrementally nudge the church towards a novel view of sex and sexuality. The job is to be very unoriginal, to receive the deposit of faith and pass it on. It's a shame. It's a real shame. The Old Testament sexual ethic was markedly different from the Egyptians and the Assyrians that were surrounding them. The New Testament sexual ethic is markedly different from the Greco-Roman culture that surrounds it. Are you kidding me? Christians have always been out of step. They haven't tried to be politicians, to form a coalition government between the Egyptian and the Assyrian and the Greco-Roman kind of um account of sexuality. Let's try and keep all those parts. No, no, be distinctive, be who you are, be different, be weird. And and this weird Christian sexual ethic that has had male and female at the heart of it is the sexual revolution that has absolutely birthed so much of the modern world. Read Joseph Hendrix, the the the weirdest people in the world, that the marriage and family program that is taught by Jesus in Matthew chapter 19 has absolutely led to the flourishing and the peculiarity of the West. And what does Jesus say in Matthew chapter 19? From the beginning, the creator made them male and female and said, for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. And what God has joined together, let no one separate. There is this male-female union that is at the heart of the scriptures and it's always been at the heart of the scriptures. Ever since God's created the heavens and the earth, heavens masculine, earth feminine, we're meant to look at heaven and earth and think those two should get together. And then man and woman are these icons of heaven and earth. And in the Bible on page one, they're told to be fruitful and multiply. And then, you know, the people of God are known as the bride, and the Lord is the great husband. And then Christ comes along and says, He is the bridegroom. And when he dies on the cross, the the New Testament letters are all explaining it in terms of, well, okay, we're a bride that's in debt. Well, the the bridegroom absorbs the debt of the bride and dies for the bride, taking our sins on himself, absorbing the debts of the bride so that we can be one with him forever. And by the end of the Bible, heaven and earth do indeed marry. The Bible has this sort of gender complementarity written into the scriptures, it's written into the history of God's people, it's written into the fabric of the cosmos. We are living within a divine romance in which man and woman come together. And the gospel itself is a gospel of Christ the bridegroom dying for we the bride, that we might be one with him together, and we await the consummation at the end of all things. The Bible is a divine romance, and we mess around with male and female images to our peril. It's basic stuff. And marriage just is not gender neutral. It's just not, you just you don't have a wedding without a bride. You don't have a wedding without a groom. You don't have marriage without a husband. You don't have marriage without a wife. There is a complementarity to the sexes. And there are a lot of things that male-male relationships are and can be. And there are a lot of things that female-female relationships are and can be. But what marriage is is a union of man and woman for life. That's that's what marriage is. And to make it into a male-male or a female-female relationship is not to wonderfully include more people in the institution called marriage, it is to redefine marriage out of all recognition. And how many people does this actually include? So if Justin Welby wants sex to be within committed lifelong relationships, i.e. marriages, well, like gay marriages account for about three or four percent of marriages every year since they they came in in 2014. Three or four percent. Like like he's widened the circle by 3% in order to be inclusive, but I don't think it he has been inclusive. According to the ONS, there are about 55,000 people in gay marriages, according to the ONS. But it seems to me that according to the ONS, there are 24 million people uh who are in heterosexual marriages. So if you want more people to have access to um legitimate lawful sex, um you are expanding that circle from 24 million to 24 million and 55,000. Um you're expanding that circle by 0.23%. What's interesting is that that answer does sort of kind of wash with Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart. Um they they do at the end of this podcast sort of talk about what a what a good guy Justin Welby is, and he's a very affable guy, and he's he's um he's incredibly likable. And Alistair Campbell and uh Rory Stewart do indeed um like him for saying what he said. But the Christian position is is already so markedly out of step with the sexual revolution of the 1960s. Justin Welby's political fudge uh allows an extra 0.23 of a percent of the UK population uh to enjoy sexual intimacy. No wonder no one within the church is actually that happy with how living in love and faith has gone. Right? I mean, if you're on the progressive side of things, honestly, what does this politician's fudge actually? Achieve for the progressive side of things. So I think his comments have lacked honesty. I think they have also lacked courage. Justin Welby talks about how when Pretty Patel at the home office, uh Tory politician bringing in a very unpopular policy of deporting asylum seekers to Rwanda and processing them there. It's it's one of the most unpopular political moves by any government that I can remember in living memory. It's just so uniquely and uniformly unpopular in the UK. And Justin Welby kind of presents this as, you know, his moment to take up prophetic courage and speak truth to power. And I decided to use two paragraphs in my Easter sermon to denounce the Rwanda policy about deporting asylum seekers, which, as I say, was incredibly unpopular. It doesn't take courage to do what Justin Welby is is doing here. Like listen to him talk about the Rwanda policy.
SPEAKER_02And one of the key things in that is human dignity and the common good. And so when the Rwanda thing happened, uh, which was on Woundy Thursday, Prudy Patel announced it, and we had a meeting online on Good Friday uh of the senior staff here. I don't do it just casually. We have great sort of consultations. And we went round the meeting saying, and I said, Do I have to speak on this now? Because it's Easter. And the answer was yes you do, from everyone. This is so the way this is structured is so inhumane, we must put a line in the sand. Sorry, cliche, but there we are. So I put two paragraphs into my sermon on Sunday. It happened to be relevant. And I remember because I speak from an iPad and I saw the paragraphs coming up the page, and I was more and more gripped with terror as they came up, because I knew this was going to cause havoc, which it truly did.
SPEAKER_04Did it really, though? Did it really cause havoc? Um it was an incredibly unpopular move by the Tories. Um for the Archbishop of Canterbury to use two paragraphs of his Easter Sunday sermon as a line in the sand. Um that is not the havoc that you've been ordained to cause. You've been ordained to cause the havoc that comes by standing with Scripture, standing with Jesus in this age. The courage that is worthy of the name is the courage to stand on unpopular biblical territory, not to denounce things that were already being denounced by a great majority of the UK. The courage that is called for from an Archbishop of Canterbury is not to denounce the Rwanda policy. The courage that is called for from an Archbishop of Canterbury is to stand on the scriptures that you are there to defend. And the attack against the scriptures is most clear in the West when it comes to matters of sex and sexuality. That is the sexual revolution that has done the most to oppose and reverse and subvert the Jesus Revolution. It will not, because the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church of Jesus Christ. But the cultural trend that is most opposed to the way of Jesus Christ in the West in the 21st century is the sexual revolution. And that is where courage is called for. You can be incredibly courageous fighting a battle that loses you no friends, that costs you very little. Where courage is called for is in fighting the battle of the hour. And surely sex and sexuality on the moral front is a battle that is much closer to the heart of proclaiming Christ into the West today. So I I think his statements lacked honesty, I think they've lacked courage, and I think they've lacked faith. They've lacked faith that preaching this message, preaching Christ's beautiful but bonkers gospel, this counterintuitive, counter-cultural word from beyond, that this is how he grows his kingdom, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. The sexual ethic of the Old Testament was different from Egypt's and Assyria, and they didn't make a coalition compromise to come up with Israel's sexual ethic. The sexual ethic of the New Testament church was not some kind of compromise between Greco-Roman culture and it's like it was different and it built the world. And look, it might be as plain as day to you that other countries in the global south that criminalized homosexual behavior, that that must be wrong. But can't you see that it's as plain as day to people from outside the West that we've lost our minds since the 1960s? That our attempts to redefine marriage in multiple ways tear at the fabric of our culture and tear at the fabric of ourselves, are we sure that the rest of the world and the rest of history is wrong and we're right all of a sudden? Seems very improbable to me. And when we see some of the incoherence of the T of the LGBT community, isn't that pause for thought? If it's obvious to us and it's obvious to many of us, that people are not gender neutral, well then perhaps marriage isn't gender neutral. And if on the transgender issue we have rediscovered the need for sex-based spaces, for for changing rooms and rape crisis centers and female sports and female prisons, if we've rediscovered the need for sex-based spaces that I can't just enter into a female space because I define myself into it. If I define myself into a female-only space, I have not widened that space and made it more inclusive. I've destroyed that space. Well, what could be more of a sex-based space than marriage, right? It's the ultimate sex-based space in which sex really matters. Sex in the biological sense, sex in terms of the act. Marriage is a sex-based space, and of course, your sex matters for that space. And you can't just define yourself into that space without redefining it and destroying that space. People are not gender neutral, and marriage is not gender neutral. There are sex-based spaces in the world, and marriage is perhaps the most foundational one. And we can't go about gloriously redefining it in the name of inclusion without destroying it. And we can't follow Christ without going against the cultural zeitgeist. And what could be more zeitgeisty in the West than a kind of a sexualized, expressive individualism? Let's stand against that, stand with the scriptures. Let's have the honesty, let's have the courage, and let's have the faith that preaching this good news into a sexually confused culture will be liberation. It will actually be for the blessing and prosperity of this world. And as there are refugees from the sexual revolution, we will be a place of sanity, of grounding, a place in which absolutely the LGBTQIA plus community is welcome, absolutely welcome. And they are not a second-class citizen, and I'm a first class citizen, and their sins are not worse than my sin. But we we all just come together to the foot of the cross of Jesus Christ, and we learn again what it is to be human, and I have so much to learn, and everybody has so much to learn, and my sins are no better than your sins. My patterns of attractions are messed up in one way, and yours will be messed up in a different way. But we're not included on the basis of an identity I claim for myself. We're included actually on the basis of being sinners. We're sick people who qualify for the doctor simply by being sick. We're sinners who qualify for Christ simply by being sinners. And that's how we come to Christ. Not claiming anything. And that's true inclusion, not based on any sexual identity or any identity at all, but based on Christ alone. Look, this has been a heavy video, but where should we go from here? Why don't we get back to the basics of what Jesus is all about? That's what 3-2-1 is about. It's our introduction to the Christian faith that requires no prior knowledge. Uh, we look at Jesus' vision for God, the world, and yourself in 3-2-1. You can do it online in eight sessions. You can binge it in one go in less than a couple of hours. You can do it in church, and 350 churches have done it. And uh you'd be welcome to join any one of them. You can go to 321course.com and find out more there. And why don't you subscribe to our channel? Because we'd really love to see you on the next video. See you then.