Hello and thank you so much for downloading this episode of the Speak Life Podcast, episode 560. My name is Thomas Thurgood, media producer at Speak Life, and today you will hear Glenn Scrivener reacting to Wesley Huff's appearance on Joe Rogan. It's been a very exciting week on Christian YouTube. It was only a couple of months ago, actually, that Glenn himself was in Canada meeting with Wesley Huff, who is a Canadian apologist and scholar, and they were doing some sessions for Apologetics Canada. And now here we are in 2025, and this week Wesley Huff was on the Joe Rogan Experience, the biggest podcast in the world, talking about his work and Jesus and Christianity, and it was very exciting. So in this episode of the podcast, Glenn will take you through the story of how that conversation on the Joe Rogan Experience happened, and also some lessons that we can learn from it. So I hope you enjoy this episode, and I will catch you at the end.
SPEAKER_04Christian apologist Wesley Huff wowed Joe Rogan.
unknownWow. Wow.
SPEAKER_03Because Wow. Wow. How many times has this happened in history?
SPEAKER_04So who is Wesley Huff? What led to him being invited onto the biggest podcast in the world?
SPEAKER_01When you refer to the Sinai Bible, would you be referring to Codex Sinaticus? The Gospel of Barnabas is a known forgery. We gave you a follow-up. I really appreciate it, Billy. Thanks so much for interacting.
SPEAKER_04What did he say? What do you think of Jesus? And what can we learn? I think the three areas where their conversation for me as a Christian was most interesting was. Hi, I'm Glenn from Speak Life. We like to see all things through the lens of Jesus. Are you up to speed on the Wesley Huff, Billy Carson, Joe Rogan story? Um, this is a wild ride. Uh I actually uh met with Wes in uh Canada about two months ago. He picked me up from the airport at Toronto and I was about to speak at an Apologetics Canada conference. Uh it was a great conference. I loved my time. Uh Wes and I, we drove down to Niagara Falls and uh enjoyed uh a day together there. And I asked him, What's going on with you? And and Wes said, Well, I just debated this guy Billy Carson. Do you know who Billy Carson is? And I didn't know who Billy Carson was. And uh Wes did. Wes had been doing some uh content on his channel about the ways in which Billy Carson is just wildly inaccurate in his claims about the Bible. Billy Carson has all sorts of content about conspiracies and ancient civilizations and aliens and that kind of thing, but when he transgresses into the area of Wes's expertise, then Wes uh has decided to say enough is enough. And he put out a bunch of content on the inaccuracies of Billy Carson's teaching. Now, a friend of Billy Carson's, who is the guy in the middle of your screen there, um, he had a podcast and he brought Billy Carson onto his show and he said, Billy, I have come across the work of Wes Huff. Can I get him in conversation with you two? Because I think we'd have a really good conversation about uh the Bible and things like that. As soon as Billy Carson debated Wes Huff, he regretted it. Why did he regret it? Well, Wesley Huss calmly and coolly dissects uh Billy Carson's nonsense with the the scalpel of scholarship, and it's a real thing of beauty to behold. Such as when Billy Carson says uh in the the Gospel of Barnabas tells us that Jesus was never crucified. Uh, here's how Wes Huff responds.
SPEAKER_01The Gospel of Barnabas is a known forgery. There are internal problems with the Gospel of Barnabas, which indicate that it it shows no actual indication of evidence of coming from or even having knowledge of first century Jewish understanding. It actually says Jesus is the Christ but not the Messiah, which indicates that whoever the author is, he didn't know that those were the same words.
SPEAKER_04Does Billy know they're the same words? I I can't tell from this debate.
SPEAKER_01And I think a bigger problem is that the Gospel of Barnabas actually paraphrases Dante's Inferno, which was written in 1314. So there's a lot of internal evidences.
SPEAKER_04Now, another piece of evidence that Billy Carson uh puts forward in favor of his theory that Jesus was not crucified, uh, is the Sinai Bible. And he mentions the Sinai Bible here again.
SPEAKER_00Watch this. Although I have a version at home. It's called the Sinai Bible, right from Mount Sinai. I'm assuming it's the mountain uh that they're referencing there. But uh they put together their own version of the biblical biblical text uh prior to the King James Version being uh put out.
SPEAKER_04Prior to 1611? A lot of things happened prior to 1611 when the King James Bible came out.
SPEAKER_01Sure. So uh when you uh refer to the Sinai Bible, uh would you be referring to Codex Sinaticus? Like the codex that comes okay.
SPEAKER_04Canadians are so polite, aren't they? I love it, I love it.
SPEAKER_01Would you be referring to okay that's why I was trying to get some clarifications because so you can actually go and see uh Codex Sinaticus is at the British Library. So you can go and see it. Um it's on display. And the British Library has actually digitized the entire manuscript. So I work with manuscripts in my in my um linguistic work. I'm an expert on early Christian scribal culture, and particularly in Greek and Coptic manuscripts. Um I actually have I have a facsimile, so I have a photocopy uh that was done by the British Library of Codex Sinaticus that I work with in my office.
SPEAKER_04And here it is. Wow, this this is an amazing gotcha moment.
SPEAKER_01Um so I have it here, and the the only reason I I ask for clarification is because I want to make sure that what I'm addressing is actually what you mean and not addressing something else. Because the Codex Synaticus in particular is just a Greek, it's a fourth century Greek manuscript. It comes from approximately between 325 and uh 350 A.D. And its text of the Gospels reads almost identical to the modern Greek text that we uh develop translations from. So uh my curiosity is just simply in kind of exploring when you say that it denies the crucifixion or that the crucifixion isn't there, I mean I can go on right now, Codex Sinaticus, and I can look up the end of, you know, see, um Matthew 27.
SPEAKER_04Don't you just love this? My my curiosity is just in exploring, I mean, it it is incredibly polite and exact, and it is a scalpel of scholarship that is there to burst this very over-inflated uh rhetorical bubble. Um and you can see why Billy did not want this video to be released. Uh it gets it gets worse. Here's another clip from the same debate.
SPEAKER_00When you read uh Azazel coming down in the book of Enoch coming down, and the first thing he does is teach people how to make knives and swords so they can cut a man's head off. Uh you read uh you know, you see these corner.
SPEAKER_01Where's that in the book of Enoch?
SPEAKER_00In the Book of Enoch? Azazel.
SPEAKER_01He comes down and he teaches that in the book of Enoch. Is it are you so I the only reason I ask is because there are two Enoch, first Enoch and second Enoch, and only first Enoch is an actual historical amalgamation.
SPEAKER_00And then you uh you analyze the fact that these angels are smoothly um having sex, they're getting drunk. These are just people.
SPEAKER_01Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Where are angels getting drunk?
SPEAKER_00Angels party, they they they go, they hang out with people, they go to war with people, they put on their outfits and go to war with people. Um Where are they getting drunk though?
SPEAKER_04And it goes on like that. And uh eventually Billy has to leave. Um apparently he had uh an appointment that was already booked, and uh and so Billy leaves. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, go on. All right, right. We'll we'll we're gonna do a follow-up.
SPEAKER_01I really appreciate it, Billy. Thanks so much for interacting.
SPEAKER_04Billy goes to work uh lawyering up and uh and serving both the host of the podcast and uh Wes Huff with a kind of a cease and desist thing and uh uh yeah, threatening uh legal action against Wes and the podcast host. Nevertheless, the full tape comes out, and Wes talks on Joe Rogan about some of the legal measures that uh Billy Carson went to. I think he even like knocked on the door of the of the podcast host like in the middle of the night uh to try and you know tell him do not release this footage. Uh Billy was very aware of uh how explosive this was. So Billy leaves. He instantly regrets his decision to have gone onto this show. He tries to get it shut down, and this is where we were at when I when I uh flew into Toronto, it must have been in the beginning of November, and uh Wes had already spoken to Billy, um, but nobody had seen the video yet. Well, the video uh has come out in spite of uh all the legal ploys that uh Billy Carson made in order to try and stop it, and out it came and it absolutely blew up on Wes's channel. And actually it changed my mind about what's possible in debates. Um I I I I'm not as cynical as to think that debates are simply theater and it's it's just uh an enjoyable punch-up and and there's no truth um value to it. I do think that there is value on going into a debate and Christ-like behavior in there, I think, can can win admiration and win a hearing for the gospel. Um but what I saw in this debate is there's a real value in the scalpel of scholarship coming and popping the balloon of rhetoric, and especially when Billy Carson's followers have followed him to some really silly, dark places. And what you see in the comment section of uh Wes's video is uh again and again testimony to the fact that this debate changed minds, changed hearts, and perhaps changed eternities, right? So this guy says, I hope Wes sees this comment. I've been an atheist that believed many of Billy's claims for my entire life. Since the debate, I've been watching a lot of your content, and I'm going to say something I've never said before. Wes has single-handedly dismantled my entire worldview on the Abrahamic doctrines. Not only do I realize how incorrect I've been my entire life, I'm beginning to believe that Christians may actually be right about everything. I can't believe I'm saying that, but it's true. Thanks, Wes, for shattering my worldview and setting me down on a solid foundation. And uh lots of people are saying similar things. I've been following Carson and his channel for years. Just watch this and unsubscribe and subscribe to Wes Huff. Gonna get my Bible out and study it for the first time in years. I was a Christian with many questions and not entirely believing. Watching Wes made me realize I'd been lied to and I'm returning to Christianity and the Lord. Thank you, Mr. Carson, for helping me to go home. There are so many other comments I could speak to, but here here's one other. Uh so I was raised as a Christian. I'm so embarrassed to say that Billy Boy had me captivated. I was all in interested spreading this evil instead of spreading the gospel. I knew better. I feel so convicted. I pray that God forgives me for the abomination that I allowed myself to be captivated in. Thank you, Wes, for knocking some sense into me. This debate was so needed because I know I'm not the only one. Jesus is the light, Jesus is my Lord, my salvation, my God. Praise him. So I I used to think that um debates were of very limited value. Um here, I guess I guess when the BS has piled so high for so long, uh, just having somebody coolly, calmly kind of take out the trash, um, in BS in terms of the views, not in terms of Billy Carson himself. Billy Carson is uh uh an image bearer of the living God and somebody who Jesus Christ loves very much, but he was and has been spouting a whole bunch of BS and clearing that to one side um has been incredibly valuable for lots of people. And then Wes gets on to Joe Rogan. They filmed it, I guess, the 30th of December, I think it was, and uh it just came out, I think, on the 7th of January, and Wes has found himself on the biggest podcast on planet Earth. And as Joe Rogan goes, so a lot of culture goes. Now I'm not s I'm not saying that uh he's the Pied Piper and we're all following after him. Maybe he's just following trends better than anyone else is following them. But for Joe Rogan, who voted for Bernie Sanders in 2016 and voted for Donald Trump in 2024, he he's kind of like emblematic. He's kind of a bellwether for a a culture that so many people did exactly the same. But if people are changing their minds politically, what if they're changing their minds religiously and spiritually at the moment? I think they are, and I think some of the Joe Rogan shift is uh a bellwether for what's going on in the rest of the culture. Here's what Joe Rogan used to say about faith.
SPEAKER_03Religion, I've always felt, is like a nice scaffolding for people. It's almost like it's structured to make the idiots have a really simple moral path. Oh, then there's this example. If there is some all-knowing entity that is controlling everything and is filled with love and has a grand plan for the universe, they have yet to show themselves. Or how about this? Everyone who who practices a religion is an atheist. You're just an atheist in regards to Zeus or Apollo or the 999 other gods. Yes. And that that's a home run. Here he gets particularly exercised. I was watching Colbert, and uh they were sitting around talking about what it means to be a Catholic, and I was like, What? What the f are you talking about? Like, hit the brakes. Aren't you grown adults? Like, you guys are you're into nonsense. But in recent times, Joe Rogan has been saying things more like this. As time rolls on, people are gonna understand the need to have some sort of divine structure to things, some sort of belief in the sanctity of love and of truth. And a lot of that comes from religion. A lot of people's moral compass and the guidelines that they've used to follow to live a just and righteous life has come from religion. And unfortunately, a lot of very intelligent people they dismiss all the positive aspects of religion because they think that the stories are mere superstitious fairy tales, that you know they're they have no place in this modern world, and you know, we're inherently good, and your ethics are based on your old moral compass, and we all have one, and that's not necessarily true. Well, this yeah, it's a fed up world we live in. We need new we need Jesus.
SPEAKER_04I think for real. And now Wes Huff sits in front of him, and what's what's gonna happen now? It's 2025. Um, where is the Joe Rogan journey going? Where is the faith conversation journey going? I think actually this conversation gives us some clues. I mean, because Joe entertains a lot of different ideas about a lot of different stuff that's not necessarily mainstream. Um so he's had Billy Carson uh onto the podcast, and and this is partly why Wes Huff started reacting to Billy Carson's stuff, because Joe Rogan had Billy Carson on his show, and so Wesley Huff said, Okay, well, Billy Carson is now such a cultural icon, I need to actually respond to some of this stuff. Um, but you know, when Billy Carson went on to Joe Rogan, the the interactions went something like this.
SPEAKER_03When you look at these ancient languages like Cuneiform, uh, can you read that? Do you know how to read it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, a a small amount of it, yeah. Studying it from books that I have bought right off Amazon.
SPEAKER_04Oh yeah. Studying from books that he bought right off of Amazon. Um Joe's like, oh, okay. But but Joe has over the years entertained a lot of different people who don't necessarily have the receipts for the things that they're saying. And I think Joe Rogan has recognized that he's had Billy Carson on, he's given him a platform, um, but he's also a big believer in free speech. So what do you do having had Billy Carson on? Well, the answer to bad speech is more speech, so let's get Wes Huff on. And so partly this is a kind of a a symbol of Joe Rogan's belief in free speech and kind of a course correction and just trying to water wanting to air things out there. Partly it's because of Joe Rogan's BS meter. He really prizes the fact that he's got a BS meter and he wants to sniff out BS and he wants to expose it, and so Weshuff is there to do that. But also, I think Joe Rogan has been shifting in the degree of plausibility that he's going to grant to Christianity. Um previously it's just nonsense. Now he's seeing that it is culture building, it is a foundation to live upon. Um there are morals, there are precepts, the security. And for that reason, he's going to give Christianity a hearing. So let's let's see how Wes does when Wes comes on the show.
SPEAKER_03It's very unfortunate when people get caught with their pants down. And um I'm not an expert in many things, but the things that I am an expert on, you could wake me up at four o'clock in the morning and ask me about those things, and I go, Oh yeah, no. Um this is what it is. Yeah. I know, you know, like martial arts or comedy. I could tell you I could give you an expert version of reality. Uh-huh. Um, it it seems like he does not have that, and he is a wonderful talker, and it's a lot of fun. I like watching his videos. It's I I love all that ancient history stuff and even the the most ridiculous tinfoil hat aspects of ancient. It's fun. It's entertainment. But I know that there's a different like Andrew Schultz and I had a discussion about this. Like he said when he had Billy on the podcast, he said, We're not gonna fing research anything. We're not gonna search anything, we're not gonna do anything, we'll just let him talk because it's fun.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Andrew's awesome. Um, but when he was on with you, it was quite apparent that you are an actual expert in in the Bible and in many religious uh texts, and that he d didn't necessarily have the facts straight.
SPEAKER_01His level is uh is pretty surface, but the fallout was that not only did he not want us to release the the conversation, but then he started throwing out cease and desist letters and then he started, you know, uh trying to sue people. So I mean I was never worried because I'm a Canadian and anybody who's tried to sue internationally knows that Good luck. Yeah, right. Yeah. As far as I understand it, he would have had to file a claim in a Canadian court that would have been reviewed to have legal precedence that he he he'd have to prove that he could win. What was his argument? The cease and desist letter said, You I don't want you to use my name or my face in anything going forward, and anything you've used up until this point, you need to remove. And I was given twenty-four hours notice to do this.
SPEAKER_03But it i if you're a public figure, he's clearly a public figure. Is that even can you actually say no?
SPEAKER_04No, no, no, you can't do it. So it should be obvious why Joe Rogan would have Wes Huff on. He's a massive free speech advocate. He also wants to correct course on having Billy Carson on his platform, but he's a free speech believer, and so the answer to bad speech is more speech, and so let's get Wes Huff on to correct the record. He's also really interested in ancient cultures, is Joe Rogan, and he's very interested in scholarship around all this kind of stuff, as as we'll see as the video goes on. But he's also much more open to Christianity than he used to be, and I think he wants to hear from articulate, intelligent Christians the reasons for the faith that they have, and Wes is well able to give him those reasons. And and that is wonderful. But I think the three areas where their conversation for me as a Christian um was was most interesting was talking about miracles, um, both the miracle that personally Wes Huff has uh experienced, but also just the miracle of the Big Bang and existence and all that kind of stuff. Miracles, um, man, I'm gonna keep it with the M's here. Um it's gonna be tortuous alliteration, sorry about that. And I'm gonna use the old-fashioned word man just in that universal sense of humanity. Um miracles, man. What is the nature of man and human exceptionalism? That comes up quite a bit. What do we think about the particular value of humanity? And then finally, morality. I think those three M's are where so many faith conversations will happen in 2025. I'm an evangelist, it's my day job to kind of share the faith with others who are outside the faith. I think those three M's are where we will see a lot of fruit as we share the gospel in 2025. We will see, as we talk about miracles and an enchanted world and the transcendent, as we talk about humanity and human rights and the place of the human, the value of the human, uh, we will see a a lot of benefit in faith conversations. And as we talk about morality and as we pull at the thread of the moral intuitions that Christianity has given to us, we will find Jesus at the other end of those. And I think this conversation brings to the fore those three M's really amazingly. First of all, miracles. And Wes is going to tell his own story of miraculous healing.
SPEAKER_01Just before my 12th birthday, I actually was diagnosed with a neurological condition that left me paralyzed from the waistband.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I did see all that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So that um so that's a condition that's called acute transverse myelitis, which I often say is a forget is a word you can forget as soon as you hear it. Because it's a complicated one. But what happened was that I had the flu and my body's immune system attacked the nerve endings at the base of my spinal cord and caused. Swelling and cut off the communication between my brain and my legs.
SPEAKER_03Instantaneously, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, basically. I'd I'd gone down for a nap. I was camping out in the bathroom floor um for flu reasons. And uh when I woke up about thirty minutes later, I couldn't feel my legs. And so, yeah, that's the acute part of the acute transverse myelitis, was that it was basically instantaneous. And that's what made the diagnosis as severe as it was. Like they said there's a 30% chance there's it was it was like a small percentage of uh uh probability that I I would recover, but a much higher percentage that there would be a a lot of either complete paralysis for the rest of my life or um some kind of uh issues with walking. It's related to like diseases like multiple sclero sclerosis in that it's it's neurological and it it it affects that kind of thing. And um one month from the day that I I woke up and couldn't feel my legs, I I woke up on a Saturday morning, got out of bed, walked over to my wheelchair and sat down.
SPEAKER_03One month.
SPEAKER_01One month, yeah. January 8th to February 8th, exactly.
SPEAKER_03Very fortunate.
SPEAKER_01Uh you're telling me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So boom, miracle, straight out there. And and Joe kind of takes that in his stride. He's like, yeah, okay. Um there there is more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in in materialist philosophies. And so he's perfectly happy to hear that testimony. Interestingly, Wes sent that to him in advance and said, This is who I am, and you need to hear this story of a miracle. Later on in the conversation, they're going to talk about the miraculous nature of the world that we actually inhabit. And Joe Rogan, like most of the people you will encounter in the year 2025, Joe Rogan is not a materialist. He's not Richard Dawkins. He doesn't believe that this world is just explained by matter in motion. He believes that there is a lot of weird stuff out there and it happens all the time. Fruitful faith conversations in 2025 will include the miraculous. Just just check out how they talk about the miraculous later on in the podcast.
SPEAKER_03However many billions of years ago, there was nothing. Yeah. And then all of a sudden there was something. And Terrence McKenna had a great line that said that um science requires one miracle.
SPEAKER_01The Big Bang.
SPEAKER_03It requires it requires a miracle.
SPEAKER_01Well, I always say that when people ask me about, you know, the miracles in the Bible. And I say, well, you know, if the first miracle happened, if everything, you know, nothing became everything, then you know, Jesus turning water into wine. That's an easy one. Well, yeah. That's a party trick.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. It really is nothing compared to the birth of the universe. But we're we're convinced at the creation of the universe, and we're very skeptical at other miracles.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. It's very odd. The world is so obviously miraculous, it's so obviously miraculous. I mean, water into wine is nothing compared to everything's come from nothing, and order has come from chaos, and life has come from non-life, and minds have come from mindless matter, apparently. Um, and all without a god of resurrection to work this miracle, like reality is already incredibly miraculous, and people like Joe Rogan are perfectly fine with the miraculous. They recognize that this world already is miraculous, and you don't have to inject in the strange events where Wes Huff as a 12-year-old is is healed of uh of an illness. That's that's not the freaky thing. The freaky thing is everything. The freaky thing is that here we are standing on our hind legs, like having conversations, like we are these lightning strikes of magic meat who uh are existing in a finely tuned cosmos, who are having thoughts about the sublime and talking about martial arts and working out and comedy and and all the other stuff that we love to talk about and that they love to talk about in the Joe Rogan podcast. But the world is charged with the grandeur of God, and that's what Gerard Manley Hopkins, the poet, said, and it's what's most obviously true, and I I I think most people are bored of talking to materialists who are clearly living in a fairy tale land in which miracles don't happen. It's clearly the fairy tale to believe that miracles don't happen when we live in such a miraculous universe, and to try and make a leap of faith towards matter in motion is all there is, that is a far less plausible view to the Joe Rogans of this world, and I think fruitful conversations in 2025 about Jesus will press into the miraculous. Now, before I press into the other two M's and about morality, um I think it it's important to say the reason why Wes Huff is on this podcast is because of his scholarships, because of his expertise, because he's good at what he does. And I think he gives a masterclass in what Blaise Pascal said you ought to do when men despise religion. He said, Men despise religion, they hate it and fear it is true. I love that. To remedy this, we must begin by showing that religion is not contrary to reason, that it is venerable, to inspire respect for it, then we must make it lovable, to make good men hope it is true, finally we must prove that it is true. Um do you see there's the respectability of the gospel, then there's the goodness of the gospel, then there's the truth of the gospel. And I think that the respectability of the gospel is so much of what Wes kind of achieved in this Joe Rogan podcast. He knew his stuff, he refused to go beyond his areas of expertise. He said, I'm not an Egyptologist, you know, I'm not an archaeologist, let me just talk about scriptural traditions, let me just talk about texts, that's that's what I know about. But within his domain, he knew a lot, and he showed very much as Pascal would advise us to show, he showed that religion is not contrary to reason, that it is venerable, and he inspires respect for it. Um, like, for instance, towards the end of the conversation, he gets them to bring up an Apologetics Canada video. Actually, I saw this video back in November when we had the conference, and I was impressed by it then. And I was wondering, is Joe Rogan gonna kind of follow along the arguments of this video? Is it is it gonna be worth showing to the millions of people who are uh watching the the Joe Rogan podcast? Absolutely, it was worth doing. And and I think it's exactly this kind of stuff that's going to appeal to the Joe Rogans of this world that show that Christians also have a BS meter, that we actually have a methodology that is employed in the service of getting at the truth, and that there's a respectability to the Christian scriptural tradition that what we're trying to get back to is what was really written in the first century. And uh and so he shows this video uh about onomastic congruences. There's a phrase to use in a in a sentence today. Onnomastic congruences, and you think, is this gonna fly on the Joe Rogan Podcast? It totally flies on the Joe Rogan Podcast.
SPEAKER_01Let's have a look. We're able to pinpoint and actually show. Yeah, so if you go to the particular decades that they're writing. A series of scholarly studies has shown that, though Jews were located in many places across the Roman Empire, people's names often tended to be geographically located. By observing literary and archaeological artifacts, a list of common names can be clearly identified. By narrowing down the most popular names in places that Jesus lived, traveled, and ministered, and by comparing these to the lists from the studies, an interesting correlation can be seen. Just as we see today with popular names, a qualifier or nickname is often used. For example, notice that when Matthew lists the disciples in his gospel, certain names have a qualifier or nickname and others do not. Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the tax collector, James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddeus, Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. As we would expect, the most popular names are those that have an added description. When we compare the most popular names in Judea and Galilee during the first century with names we see listed in key places in the biblical Gospels, we find that all the names with qualifiers match with what we'd assume if they were actually written in the time and place they claim to be narrating. In contrast, the Gospel of Judas only has two names that would fit, Jesus and Judas, but contains a host of other characters whose names match not with first century Judea or Galilee, like the biblical gospels, but with names that were popular in Egypt during the second and third centuries. Consider how difficult it would be for someone living outside of the locations and times that these events took place to get the right names with the right qualifiers. We have four biblical gospels with four different authors, and yet each gets this test of naming frequency and attribution right every time. A test and standard that the non-biblical gospels simply do not pass.
SPEAKER_03Interesting.
SPEAKER_01So we can use that.
SPEAKER_03That is so interesting.
SPEAKER_04Isn't it all throughout Joe Rogan's going, wow, that's interesting, right? And he's really tracking with this, especially because Joe Rogan loves his BS meter, and he loves the idea of a BS meter that is set so sensitively that no BS gets through. And so, ah, Christians have thought about this. And Joe's spoken very freely in the past, and not always accurately, about the truth and accuracy of the scriptures. And he's just really now having his eyes open to the fact that no Christians have really, really thought about this. And the Bible that you have in your hands today, that is what Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John wrote. You can disagree with it all you like, but what we have now is what they wrote then. And we're seeing his reaction in real time. I mean, have a look.
SPEAKER_03So this is so totally makes sense, too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so it's in the levels of methodology that we can use to find internal accuracy. If we really want to figure out, okay, where was this written? And is it coming from early eyewitness testimony? We look at something like the biblical gospels and they fit the bill for something that's written in first century Judea.
SPEAKER_04So accuracy is really important to Joe, it's really important to Wes, and it's really important in evangelism because, as Pascal said, we need to show that religion is not contrary to reason, it is venerable, inspire respect for it. And then Pascal says, then we must make it lovable. Show people that it is desirable. So it's not just respectable, it's also desirable. And I think that brings us to our second M. In the conversation, they get to the distinct and exceptional dignity and value of human beings. This is the second M. After Miracles, man. And I think that's really actually important to Joe. Here's an example in the conversation.
SPEAKER_03The search for our origins is one of the most human endeavors. One of the most because to do to know that we are particularly unique. We're so different. We stand out from every other animal on this planet. And there's this crazy wild war of biology where life is just eating life all around us. And we just got to some crazy place that far beyond any other creature that's on this planet. Yeah. And we did it in a bunch of different ways. We did it in a bunch of different ways all over the place with different scribbles and different icons and different gods and different things. And we're all wondering like which one where where did it start? What was the origin of all this? Like what was the need to write these things down? What purpose did it serve to have these myths and legends and stories? Like, was it just to keep society together or was it to retell a very important story that was a very unique thing that happened at the dawn of time?
SPEAKER_04That is so vital for evangelism in 2025. Um the the the status of humanity, okay, the second of the three M's, man. Like, are are we just really well-evolved apes? The difference between us and apes does not seem to be one of quantity, like we're we're more intelligent and we have more manners. The difference is not just a quantitative difference, it's a qualitative difference. It's not just the difference in degree, it's a difference in kind. What kind of persons are humans? And T. S. Eliot said, you know, if you take away from the word human everything that the Bible has given to it, then what we are left with is humans are just clever, adaptable, mischievous animals. Is that what we are? Joe Rogan knows that we are not like that. And interestingly, in their conversation, uh, he asks Wes about, you're like, what do you think about, you know, pre-human hominids and and and all that kind of stuff? And and Wes is kind of not that's not his area, and he says, look, that's that's not my area. Um, but I think I think the right answer back to um Joe at that stage is, yeah, but what do you think? Because you know, Joe, don't you? You know that we are different. You know that the difference between us and the chimpanzees is not just in in the degree to which we're walking upright. And it's not even just IQ, right? There is a difference in kind. And where does that human exceptionalism come from? It's well explained on the Bible, it's not well explained purely biologically or even purely sociologically. It's such a mystery to figure out how do you get human culture and civilization and personality from the raw materials of nature read in tooth and claw? Let's watch Joe ask the question about uh these early hominids.
SPEAKER_03So, as a Christian, what do you think about all this stuff? Like, what do you think about ancient hominids, Australia Pithecus, Neanderthals? Like, what do you what was God up to with all this?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I'm not a scientist, so I gotta stay in my lane. I ultimately would be an advocate for intelligent design, where I would say that um that God purposefully created humanity in a way you you had Steven Meyer on, right? Yes. Yeah, so I mean he's uh one of those guys who talks about kind of the the issues that he sees with evolution. And I think I have some of those issues too. My friend Jonathan McClatchy uh is a biologist, and he does some really great presentations on the ways that he sees kind of um uh the intricacies of new Doranian evolution as not quite uh explaining some of what what's going on with things like the fossil record and some of the gaps that we have in there. Um when you talk about early hominids, I mean ultimately I think that there are aspects of the fact that there are ancient cultures which I mean humanity obviously looks very different today than it did, you know, if we're going tens of thousands of years ago. Right. And so I think that there's a different kind of convention in understanding. But I ultimately I would ascribe to there being an original Adam and Eve, and that those are our like, if you want to call them like our first parents kind of thing. But there are other Christians who I would disagree with, but I think have interesting articulations of that in terms of theistic evolution. Um I disagree with them, but it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility to find explanations. I don't think the Bible is trying to explain how people came into existence in the same way that maybe we want it to. And a lot of people read the origin stories in Genesis as a scientific textbook, and I think ultimately that misses the point of what Genesis is trying to say. This goes back to what we were talking about with like how did the original audience understood this? Right. When they read Genesis chapter one, do are they looking at that as um an exact prescription of what God did? I mean, in some ways maybe, but in other ways that they they could see that as this like counterapologetic to the other ancient Near Eastern stories, like I explained. So I I just think we need to be careful when we're looking at or even like counting up the genealogies and coming up with a you know how how old the earth is. I think that might be missing the force for the trees in what we're actually looking at when we look at ancient documents and how we're trying to interpret them. Um but it is a big question, right? Right.
SPEAKER_04And and Wes, as with so many other answers, he he stayed in his lane as as a scholar of ancient texts uh rather than as a scientist. And I appreciate that that Wes says, you know, I I believe that that God created Adam um as as this special, you know, father of the human race. And and I think that's a really important place for Christians to to stand on and to insist upon, uh, largely because it explains all the intuitions that Joe has. Joe Rogan has these intuitions that humans are exceptionally different, and different in kind, not just in degree, from nature that is read in tooth and claw. And here is here is an explanation for that. Um, humanity really is different. We really have been made different to the rest of the animal kingdom. And I think we can be proud of that answer. That it here is an answer that actually explains what we most know to be true, which is that humans are very different from the rest of the animal kingdom. So I think his answer here, even though it puts all our scientific work ahead of us, if we're going to kind of justify it, um his answer here puts us back onto the issue of the special character of humanity, which is something that is very difficult to deny. And whatever else you say about origins and science and how you answer the Adam and Eve question, camp out on the specialness of humanity, A, because that's what the Bible teaches, but B, it's also very resonant with the Joe Rogan's of this world. So that's the second M that we're talking about. Um don't be afraid to go into the miraculous. Um, do press into man and the nature of humanity and the special nature of humanity, because I think the Bible has explanations for that, that actually science doesn't. And then thirdly, there is the the issue of morality. Now, interestingly, the way they get into the morality conversation is by Weshoff asking the central question that you should ask in all evangelism, which is what do you make of Jesus? That that is the target, that that is bullseye. Like if you're aiming for anything in a conversation where you're sharing your faith, talk about Jesus and who he is. And Joe had been leaning in a lot when he was talking about Sumerian and Akkadian and cuneiform and Egypt and all that kind of stuff. He was leaning in and saying, Wow, a lot. And he's he's probably got less to say when it comes to the person of Jesus, but it's still worth asking that question. Let's let's see how it unfolds.
SPEAKER_01In all of this, what do you think of Jesus? Like in terms of your own like journeying and trying to find answers to ultimate questions. What do you think of the historical person of Jesus?
SPEAKER_03Aaron Powell Well, it certainly seems like there's a lot of people that believe that there was this very exceptional human being that existed. So the question is, what does that mean? Does it mean he was a son of God? Does it mean he was just some completely unique human being that had this vision of humanity and this way of educating people and spreading this ideology that would ultimately change the way human beings interact with each other forever.
SPEAKER_04Interestingly, like the impact of Jesus, Joe is not going to deny. And and I I I think like the Dominion thesis, so Tom Holland, the historian who wrote the book Dominion in 2019, has really changed the way a lot of people think. Or whether his book has changed it or whether his book just is reflecting a change that is happening in the culture, we are noticing that Jesus has changed everything for everyone. He has. And one of the first things that Joan mentions about Jesus is his historical impact. I think that that's interesting. Um, as we're doing evangelism in 2025, pressing upon people. Okay, here is a carpenter who puts down his hammer and he starts a preaching ministry and he shoots his mouth off in some backwater locations of a long-dead empire, gets crushed by that empire as a criminal, and that should have been that for the Jesus movement, and yet that was not that for the Jesus movement. There was this water-interwine miracle from Godforsaken execution into world domination, and suddenly he rises again to split history into BC and AD, and now we name the Caesars who put him to death according to his timeline. It is the year of our Lord, 2025, and he has gone on to birth the most diverse, the most inclusive, the most extraordinary, the most enduring and the most influential revolution in human history. Not bad for a carpenter who was executed in his early 30s. And and that historical impact of Jesus is clearly having an impact on Joe. And but those are the sorts of historical and cultural directions he starts to go in. Because he's a modern person, and in 2025, maybe that's the way we'll see our faith conversations going in the direction of what does this mean for history, what does this mean for culture, what does this mean for lifestyle, what does this mean for morality? That's where the conversation ends up.
SPEAKER_03So what is is is he the son of God? Well, are we all? That's another question, right? Or do we all have that inside of us? Do we all have that ability to change everything around us inside of us? Do we all have that unique connection to the divine? And is he a representation of the best version of that, or was he an actual person that was the son of God? And is it important?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I don't know. I mean, what does it mean?
SPEAKER_04And of course, the Christian answer is that he is individually and naturally and originally the son of God so that we Might all in him become children of God. He he is very clearly this singular figure who blazes the trail, who is the pioneer, who is the original son of God, so that you and I can be sons and daughters in him and have that connection to the divine, as Joe says. And I think that makes perfect sense of who we already know Jesus to be. We already know him to have articulated a unique relationship with his father. He said, you know, you love me before the foundation of the world, he prays in John chapter 17, verse 24. The night before he dies. You loved me before the foundation of the world, and then Jesus completes that thought in John 17, verse 24, by saying, Father, I want those you've given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you've given me, because you love me before the foundation of the world. He is originally that son, so that in him we might become sons and daughters. And this is why we even have this notion that we can all be sons and daughters of God, that we can all have the brotherhood and sisterhood of man and woman on planet Earth. It's how it's come from this singular figure who offers a universal hope. And that makes all the sense in the world. When you look at who Jesus is, he is a singular figure, and we see that he has given hope to the world. The Christian story makes sense of the history that is undeniable. But Joe keeps going.
SPEAKER_03In a way. Just the fact that there's this concept of this person that died for our sins as a son of God, but you have to buy a bunch, you have to believe in a bunch of stuff to go that way. Like just the concept of that is interesting to people because it what it can do to people is it offer them a very unique way to change the way they feel about the world itself. And if you do follow that, I know a lot of Christians are hardcore Christians, some of the nicest people you'll ever meet in your life. So it does work. Right? Like if you do live like a Christian and you do follow the principles of Christ, you will have a richer, more love-filled life. So it is true, right? But you have to submit to this concept that this guy was the child of God who came down to earth, let himself be crucified, came back from the dead, explained a bunch of stuff for people, and then said, Alright, so you want to come back.
SPEAKER_04This is so fascinating for evangelism in 2025. Joe Rogan is noticing that living into the Jesus thing works, right? It leads to communities that flourish and it leads to a sense of stability, it leads to a sense of purpose and meaning and significance and a kind of a moral order that we seem to thrive in. And maybe that recommends the truth of Christianity. Maybe the fact that it works means that it's true or true enough. One of the people this path has worked for, uh, I found on Twitter, uh Brent Bishaw, and uh he actually is commenting on this very clip from Joe Rogan saying that, you know, Christianity seems to be true enough because it works in practice. And he comments on it like this Flashback to my late twenties, i.e. 14 years ago, and I was an ardent atheist, I met some smart, well-read, successful people whose lives looked fundamentally different than mine, and to my surprise and chagrin, they were devout Christians. I couldn't believe it. They broke all my assumptions, they were funny and loving, kind and humble, they had courage, and largely lived without the fear, anxiety, and malaise I felt and saw clearly in my friends. They lived with a freedom that I had never experienced. They were present and caring and comfortable in their own skin, they helped the helpless with no desire for recognition or expectation of reciprocity. Their worldview was so different than mine and so shocking by comparison that it forced me to reconsider my daily operating beliefs. I was focused on me, they were focused on others. I was obsessed with accumulating money, power, and fame, they were uncomfortably generous and carefree with their resources. I was easily offended, they were unoffendable. I was fragile mentally and emotionally, they were focused and resilient. The question I had to face was this: is it true because it works, or does it work because it's true? That's what started my exploration, which ended in concluding that Jesus was who he says he was, and it transformed my life. I don't embody nearly all the characteristics that initially piqued my interest, but the trajectory is there and I find comfort in knowing that I'm still early in my journey. Is it true because it works, or does it work because it's true? And that was the kind of the experiment that he was on, and as he joined a loving Christian community that was living out the way of Jesus, he started to pull at those threads and he discovered that Jesus is who he says he was. Isn't it interesting in the conversation? It begins with Wes asking Joe, who do you think Jesus is? Joe starts saying, I think he's had an incredible sociological impact. And I'm persuaded that those who live out that sociological way of life are more sane and grounded, and maybe that's a way to discovering faith. And there's this guy, Brent, he's like, Well, that is the path that I was on. And it actually led me to discovering who Jesus is. The morality thing led to the Messiah in Brent's case. And I think we will find in 2025 a lot of evangelism that is fruitful in that way. Now, we will have to be these kinds of loving communities, won't we? Like job number one for the Christian community is to be the sort of community that Brent was outlining here and was so attractive to Brent. But if we can be that kind of community, I think we'll find people who are joining us wondering, does this work because it's true, or is it just true enough because it works? And in that context, they might well find faith. But there is a danger, and it's a danger that Wes is about to point out. He's going to raise a caution here. If people's way into the faith is morality, then the great danger is that they identify Christianity with moralism. And that's where Wes gets to. And he wants to raise the issue of Jordan Peterson and others who are kind of on this path of going into the morality of Christianity. He wants to raise the issue of Jordan Peterson and others in order to raise a flag and say, that's great if it gets you into church community, but do not confuse Christianity with moralism. That's what he says here.
SPEAKER_01I mean, guys that you're friends with, right? Like the Jordan Petersons and the Douglas Murrays of the world, or you know, the Tom Hollins, not the Spider-Man actor, the historian, who talk about this stuff. I think I really like the way that Jordan Peterson articulates it, but I think he misses the forest for the trees. How so? In that he sees Jesus as an archetype. And I don't think actually even Jesus gives you the opportunity to see him as the archetype. Because I I both I have this love-hate relationship with all of Peterson's stuff because he's he seems to get so much right where he walks up to the line, but he doesn't want to cross over.
SPEAKER_03And is the crossover you think connected to a life in academia? No.
SPEAKER_01I I wonder, and I'd love to talk to him about this. I'd love you to talk to him about this too, as like how do you uh remedy this issue that because he seems to think it that the concept of Jesus as an example is more important than the actual flesh and blood first century itinerant Jewish preacher who was crucified and rose from the dead physically, which is the claim of the gospels and the rest of the New Testament. That that's that's an example for us to look on and live by. But I I actually think that Jesus condemns moralism. And ultimately what I see Peterson doing is looking at Jesus as a moral example, and if Jesus is nothing but a moral example, then you can save yourself and you don't actually need a savior. And so I think actually Jesus would have critiqued that because Jesus was very against moralism.
SPEAKER_03And w what how does he how do you define Jesus being against moralism? Like what do you mean by that exactly?
SPEAKER_01Well, Jesus looks at the religiosity of his day with like particular groups like the Pharisees and the Sadducees, who are these other like uh these other groups of Jews during his day. So we talked about the Essenes, who actually aren't mentioned in the Bible, but there are other groups like the Pharisees who are like lay scholars and the Sadducees who are professional priest scholars. And he's constantly critiquing the fact that they have this hypocritical religiosity to them where they're doing things like um tithing their mint leaves, like to make sure that they get all of this is where we get the idea of the letter of the law versus um the intention of the law. Like Jesus critiques them for that because he says you're trying to do everything right and you're missing the point. So one of the things he says is like, um uh if your donkey falls in a ravine on the Sabbath, do you pull it out? Or is that work? Like, what's the point of the Sabbath? Is it to not do any work? Like, is it to make sure that you're not working too hard because it might be breaking the Sabbath? Or like, what is the point? He says, like the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. And that there's this intention. This is the whole Sermon on the Mount, um, Matthew chapter five, is he keeps saying, You have heard it said, but I say, and he refers to the Mosaic Law, and it looks like he's critiquing the Mosaic Law, but he's not actually. He's getting back to the intention of the law. So when he he says, you know, you have heard it said, do not commit murder. But I say to you, anybody who harbors uh harbors a hate for their brother in their heart has already committed murder. And and what he's getting to is like, what's the intention? What's the meaning of the law that God puts gives to you? Because the law is like a mirror, it shows you how dirty you are. But his critique is he's like, you guys are trying to clean yourself with a mirror. That's stupid. It's just gonna if anything, it's gonna make you more messy. Like get in the shower. The the law is not what cleans you, the law is what reveals that you're dirty. And so, in that sense, I think, you know, if Jesus is a moral example, it actually misses what I think Jesus actually said about what his purpose was, in that you can't do enough to actually live up to the standard that God holds you to. And so if you keep striving, you're you're actually gonna wear yourself out and be exhausted.
SPEAKER_03Like atheists.
SPEAKER_01I didn't say you did, Joe.
SPEAKER_03A lot of them go crazy. They go crazy when they get older.
SPEAKER_04Praise God. They got to that moment, and that's basically the uh the the end of the podcast. And Wes is able to kind of do a little law and gospel, and he's able to say, Look, the law is good. Twelve rules for life are good, 12 more rules for life might be good too, and they can give good advice for life, but good advice is not good news. You you need the gospel, right? Because without the gospel, you are just left with moralism. Without the gospel, you're just left with I'm the younger brother and I've decided in the pig sty in Luke chapter 15, I've run out of money, I'm gonna go back home and become a slave, right? That's that's what that's what Christianity is without the gospel. It's just a whole bunch of people who might have gone into the far country of materialism and they've recognized that it's a nihilistic mess, and they've decided to come back to church, come back to the father's house in order to be slaves. And the whole point of Luke chapter 15, Jesus telling the story of the prodigal son, is that you are not meant to go from being a younger brother type to being an older brother type. The older brother type was the moralist, right? And the moralist finishes the story mad as hell at his younger brother and staying outside in outer darkness with weeping and wailing and the angry gnashing of teeth, which is every way that Jesus describes hell. The moralist is left in hell, and the sinner is invited into the feast by grace alone through faith alone. And that's the good news that we need to say to people who are showing up in church. And many many people are showing up in church because they've they're sick of the far country, they're sick of the pig style, they want to become hired servants. And the good news is that they are reconciled as sons and daughters in Christ. And Wes has taken this opportunity because I I think he knows the times that we're in. I think he knows that that morality is a way into faith for people now. People are showing up in church, not in spite of the fact that it's got moral certainties, but because it's got moral certainties, but that can breed moralism. And I think this is a necessary caution. Uh, and the caution then comes with the corrective of the gospel that you know what, the mirror is not going to tidy your face up. The bath is. Come home to Jesus, and he can actually tidy you up, he can actually cleanse you uh in a way that 12 more rules for life never can. So that's where the podcast got to, and praise God that it did. I was I was praying for for Wes as he uh went on to the show, and uh uh we might be able to get him onto our channel and uh talk to him more about what it was like going on Joe Rogan and uh how he found the whole experience and the the many doors that are opening up as people are coming to Christ through Wes's witness. And I'm thrilled to see it because not only am I seeing the fruit of that ministry, I'm also seeing an example that we can learn from. Um, as Pascal said back in the 17th century, men despise religion, they hate it and fear that it is true. To remedy this, we must begin by showing that religion is not contrary to reason, that it is venerable, to inspire respect for it, then we must make it lovable, to make good men hope it is true, finally we must prove it is true, and I think Wes is stepping us through those steps uh in a really fruitful way, and uh I'm I'm thanking God for him. Now, what did you make of uh Wes? What did you make of Billy Carson? What do you make of Joe Rogan and the path that he's on? What are you making of this moment that we're in and the kind of faith conversations that we're having? Uh, are you saying that pressing into the miraculous is being helpful? Are you seeing that pressing into man and and the human exceptionalism, human dignity, that that's uh very useful? Are you seeing the ways in which morality is leading people to the church, but also how moralism might be a caution that uh we need to hear. What are you noticing about the evangelistic conversations that we're having? I'd love to hear in the comments below. And as ever on this channel, we always want to direct you to 321 because it's a really easy way for you to either share your faith with others or to explore the faith for yourself. You go to 321course.com, you start an account, it's totally free. We don't spam you and it doesn't cost you anything. You can binge the whole thing in a couple of hours, or you can do eight sessions one after the other, and it gives you Jesus' vision for life, Jesus' vision for God, Jesus' vision for the world, Jesus' vision for you. And uh lots of people are discovering faith on that course. So if you are not a Christian, perhaps do it. If you are a Christian, do it and then pass it on to a friend so that they can discover life according to Jesus too. That ought to do us for this video. If you've gotten this far, it's definitely worth a like, wouldn't you say? And why don't you think about who you can share it with, perhaps on social media, or text them a link to this. And uh do subscribe, make sure you subscribe to us so that we can catch you again on the next video. God bless.
SPEAKER_02Well, there we go. Thanks so much for listening to the Speak Live Podcast, and I think that's a resounding well done Wes. If you're new to us, do subscribe to the Speak Life Podcast on your podcatcher of choice, and we will be back very soon. God bless