Have you noticed a shift? I certainly have. A steady stream of rudderless, mawless, and disillusioned people are coming to church. Sunday by Sunday, a quiet surge is rising. People you'd never expect are walking into churches, uninvited and unprompted. They're craving something more, something transcendent, a re-enchanted life that's intellectual and spiritual. How should we respond? Well, Glenn Scrivener and good friend of Speak Life Justin Briley want to invite you to join them for responding to the rebirth. A one-day conference with leading Christian thinkers, including the wonderful John Lennox, Mike Royal, Elizabeth Oldfield, and Paul Kingsnorth. We'll be gathering with others from across the country to celebrate what God is doing in this moment of surprising rebirth. It's happening on Saturday, the 22nd of November 2025, at All Souls, Langham Place, London. Come and be inspired to meet this quiet revival with spirit-filled clarity and hope. Don't miss what God is doing at this moment. Be part of the response. We'd love to have you with us. For more information and to book your place at the conference, visit Rebirthconference.net. Rebirthconference.net. There we go, little plug there for the Rebirth Conference. We're really looking forward to it. Basically, all of the Speak Life team will be attending in some capacity. I'll probably be upstairs in the tech box. So if you want to bring me, I don't know, uh a breadstick, uh, you'd be very welcome to, but but don't no, you you don't you don't need to do that. Uh it will be lovely to maybe meet some of you there. If you're new to the Speak Life Podcast, my name is Thomas Thurgood. I'm a media producer at Speak Life. And just to give you a little heads up of what to expect in this episode, recently Alex O'Connor, cosmic skeptic, who we talk about a lot on the Speak Life Podcast, he appeared on the Waffling Podcast. I don't know if you've heard of that, Waffling by Joe Weller at Waffling by Joe Weller on YouTube. So Joe Weller, it's kind of unclear what he himself believes, but he's certainly become more spiritually open. And he has tried surrendering to God, and he articulates in in the clips you're about to hear what he understands that to mean. But he kind of pushes Alex on this question, you know, why not try surrendering to God and what might that look like? So Glenn reflects on that, what we can learn from it, and maybe some cautions that we need to be aware of. So I hope you enjoy this episode and find it helpful. And I will hand straight over to Glenn.
SPEAKER_01Alex O'Connor went on to one of the larger podcasts in the UK, and he has this warning for Christian content creators.
SPEAKER_04I I find myself these spending more time speaking to atheists about the plausibility of God and religion and consciousness being immaterial than I do doing the opposite. But I do do the opposite. So just so it's clear to everybody. I do do the opposite. Like the Jubilee thing surrounded by 25 Christians, I'm like telling them why I think Christianity is not true, etc. Just didn't do it today, but don't read too deeply into that, ladies and gents. Uh the Christian the Christian response channels that I I can I can see you. I can see you. Where can people find you?
SPEAKER_03On those Christian response channels, currently saying, like, you know, you've made an atheist proves God hosts shocked by revelation from atheist. So probably that.
SPEAKER_01This is not a reaction video to Alex O'Connor, therefore. Uh this is going to be why Alex says this on this podcast. And I promise you, I'm not going to be reacting to Alex O'Connor so much as reacting to these guys, the Wafflin guys. We've got Luke Martin and Theo Baker on the screen there, but the podcast is mainly run by Joe Weller. And I want to respond to just where these guys are at when it comes to faith. Having Alex O'Connor talking about philosophy on their podcast was a first. That's not what they usually talk about. Like Joe Weller became famous by doing these kinds of videos.
SPEAKER_05The C.
SPEAKER_01You know, like yellow sh and after bringing wrestling to the streets of Eastbourne, Jo Weller's gone on to do lots of other quite famous videos, like visiting haunted houses. And Joe Weller was really the first YouTuber to get into the whole boxing match kind of thing. These lads are around about Alex's age, and I want to get into what spirituality, what Christianity means to these guys. So this podcast really gets going around about half an hour from the end. It's a two-hour podcast, and Luke Martin asks Alex what his best argument against God's existence is. It plays like this. Check it out.
SPEAKER_02So what would you consider to be your biggest argument against the existence of God?
SPEAKER_01Notice against the existence of God.
SPEAKER_02Well, it depends what kind of God you're talking about. Well, because does God not exist in the same format as Sherlock Holmes?
SPEAKER_01Ah, great question. Great question. Okay, so they've just had this conversation about how different things exist at different levels of explanation. So this table exists on one level of explanation, but if Arthur Conan Doyle writes about a table in his Sherlock Holmes novels, that exists in a completely different level. And the statement, does Sherlock Holmes live at 221b Baker Street? Is that true? Well, it's true within the story. If you said that he lived at 119 Baker Street, then you would be saying something false even within the story. And so there are different levels of truth and different levels of reality. That's why he's saying that to Alex at this point. But that sends Alex down this particular route.
SPEAKER_04So maybe like Okay, so there are things which like don't exist and like just can't exist. And there are things that don't exist, but they kinda could exist. So the square circle doesn't exist. And neither do unicorns. But there's a sense in which unicorns like could exist. You could imagine a world in which they did exist. Yeah, definitely. But there's no world in which square circles exist.
SPEAKER_01And so here Alex takes them through basically an argument from contingency. And it's an argument for God's existence. Remember, Luke asked him, what's the best argument against God's existence? And Alex, perhaps because it's been top of mind, he's just released an excellent video on convincing AI that God exists through this particular argument. So probably because it's top of mind, Alex just gives the contingency argument for God's existence. If the universe is contingent and not necessary, then there must be something behind it that is itself not contingent and is the necessary cause of this universe, and that necessary cause has to be outside the chain of causal relations, and it must have brought this contingent universe into being at a certain point in time, which speaks to the cause having some kind of agency, it's person-like, it has a will. And so we're describing something like God at this stage. And Alex does a great job of bringing this very complex philosophical argument right down to podcast level, and he's got them in the palm of his hands. But remember, he was asked what is the best argument against God's existence, and then he gives an argument for God's existence. When he realizes what he's done, he then says this.
SPEAKER_04I've gone a- I've given a a a hopefully a not too um complicated or strange overview of it there, but if people are interested, I try to really uh get into the wheeze and explain every step of that in that particular case. But I can't remember why. Oh yeah, because you asked, Does does God exist or not exist?
SPEAKER_02What's your argument for or sorry?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you're asking about atheism, and I've just tried to prove God's existence.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Your your belief is, I guess at this point, that he doesn't exist. But I know you're open to being a believer.
SPEAKER_01So that's why Alex thought that this will be a clip that's used on Christian reaction channels. Obviously not on this channel, because this is not a reaction to Alex, this is a reaction to Luke and Theo and Joe and their particular spiritual journeys. But that's what led to Alex saying, I know this is going to be used on Christian reaction channels. He was asked to give an argument against God's existence. He couldn't help himself but give an argument for God's existence. But what I really want to draw attention to is then what Joe Weller does, because Joe Weller is less interested in all the philosophical arguments. He's more interested in, Alex, if you're open to the existence of God in that philosophical realm, why don't you open yourself up to God in a more existential way? Here's the way that Joe Weller puts it. It's like this experience, this energy, this guidance of the thing.
SPEAKER_04What I'm saying is because I haven't felt anything like that or I haven't seen that kind of thing. Yeah, you know, look like to the extent that I it's difficult to know because a lot of people say, Well, you think you're trying, but you're not open enough. And I I think I've tried. I really, really think I've tried. And how did you try? Firstly, really important is being open to it. Like when you were telling us about your experience and and uh uh m even my listeners might be surprised to hear me say, like, oh yeah, maybe it was true. Right? But like if we're gonna have this conversation, you at least need to try to put that hat on for that conversation, otherwise it's gonna be pointless, right? And so in in religion, the first step is to actually religion and God's existence. Or God, sorry, I should say, yeah, yeah, God's existence, or or even just non-material, you know, spiritual, whatever. The first step is gonna be like in order to say that you've tried it, you need to have first put yourself in a position where you believe in its plausibility. I think there's so much weird stuff in the universe that I very much believe in the plausibility of consciousness being immaterial, of the existence of God. I think that's true. So what does that mean? Jo Weller will press, Alex. But I've never had such an experience.
SPEAKER_05That believe in God don't go, oh yeah, I believe because like Jesus takes me. No.
SPEAKER_04But most people have some kind of experience. Right. And I've just never had such an experience.
SPEAKER_05But you said you gave it a go to like put that hat on. Like, what did you do to give that a go?
SPEAKER_04Well, there are a few ways to answer that question. One is to say that like I got a degree in theology. Right. I I tried my best to surrender.
SPEAKER_05Most people would say it's a case of like surrendering, going, I surrender to God. Yeah. I surrender to the fact that I don't have it all figured out and I am open to like God's plan for me or something, you know, completely surrendering. That's how a lot of people would describe their like actually diving in head first and giving it a go. Have you ever done anything like that?
SPEAKER_04No, because of the fact that like in order to, as you put it, surrender to something. And and and people like you know, like Christians will listen to what you're saying and go, yes, yes, yes. That's Alex's problem. He needs to surrender to Christ. And maybe they're right. Maybe if I surrendered to Christ, whatever that means in practice, I would I would become a Christian. But the problem is, right? I think I've done as much as can be expected of a non-believer, or close to it. Maybe I haven't, but I like to think that I've done a lot that like a lot more than the average atheist should be expected to do.
SPEAKER_01Notice Joe Weller's kind of leaning in at this point. His feet are up on tiptoes, he's kind of smiling. He he really wants to know about this existential surrender issue, which I think is is fascinating about Joe. Let's keep going. Right, okay. So you're an atheist. Well, how do you know?
SPEAKER_04Oh well you should go to church and see.
SPEAKER_05It's like, is it any sense of fear? Fear of what? Of going surrender. Because the idea of, especially like as a as a territorial man, like the idea of you know, I want to protect myself, I don't want to surrender. What?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Like, is that is there as an element of like I don't even want to experiment doing that? Because if I was like, Alex, for the next month, yeah, four times a day, say the same phrases that basically like say the phrase that basically I surrender to God. Uh-huh. I am open to being guided. Just to see if it is real.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so th but to me, those are two different things, right? Saying I could say four or five times a day, I am open to being guided. You know, God, if you're there, please, please let me in, you know. I could do that. But saying I surrender to God, what does that mean? What does it mean? Like, how would I so right now, I don't believe it's true, but I want to say I'm open to it. So let's say, okay, I'm gonna trial a policy for the next week, I'm gonna surrender to God.
SPEAKER_01Are you sympathetic to Alex? I'm very sympathetic to Alex. What what does it mean to actually do that? But also, I think Alex is well aware of this kind of analogy, it's kind of a little bit like falling in love. Like, what do I do in order to fall in love? You can't really will yourself to fall in love. You cannot love that which you do not currently love, you cannot desire that which you currently do not find desirable. So, what should he do? I think I get both where Alex is coming from and where Joe is coming from. This this is how Joe puts it. What do I do?
SPEAKER_05Like in practice, like what would literally what I would say saying those phrases with conviction, uh-huh, like genuinely meaning it, I surrender to God. But how can you surrender? What do you mean how can you mean it if you if you haven't actually surrendered yet?
SPEAKER_04So for example, the one that's just said, Oh, I put the hat on, so I've like done the research. So what I mean by putting the hat on is putting the the the hat on of taking a position which I might otherwise think is implausible and treating it as though it might be plausible.
SPEAKER_01Right. That is that is to Alex is very good at being playful with ideas and entertaining ideas in that kind of sense. And I think that's important in a journey to God, but I think both of them can agree with where Joe is coming from, which is there is a moment of crying out to God. If anyone's up there, can you please hear me? And of continuing to ask and seek and knock in that kind of sense. And that's why I'm making this reaction video a reaction video to Joe Weller. I think Joe Weller has made a really interesting journey in which he's opened himself up to unconditional love. Here's the way that Joe speaks about it.
SPEAKER_05Because imagine, right? Imagine all of us don't realize that, like, imagine we're trying to figure life out and have it everything, well, yeah, figure everything out the best we can with our little like pea brain, and that's all we've got. But there is this higher power that if we allow in can guide us in a way that we could never even comprehend trying to do so. It's like the same power of as like five million of our own brain. Imagine there is that, but we're too proud to go, nah nah, I don't I don't even want to comprehend that because that's ridiculous, and I've got too much scientific evidence that that's ridiculous. Like, imagine we're just missing out on that guidance. Imagine we're missing out on that what could be. That's why I'm like, I'm very open to just exploring these things and like giving it a go. And I've definitely noticed, I mean, I have never really been someone that's like religious or like 100% there's a god or there isn't, but like giving it a go. I've gone, okay, let me just try this. Why not give it a go? Let me surrender, let me just see what happens. And one thing I I I will say when I did give that a go, there's a lot of clarity, a lot of clarity, clarity that came through of knowing what I want, what I'm getting pulled to do things that are like that are I'm getting a lot of fruit of my labour and things that weren't necessarily just selfish things.
SPEAKER_04Specifically, what do you mean with like surrender to God? You said like saying the phrase. Okay. But you can say the phrase and and not and just say the words. So what do you mean?
SPEAKER_05Say like your parents when you were a child guiding you somewhere. You either do as you're told and essentially you're surrendering by like following their guidance of like holding their hand as you cross the road or something. It's like I don't know, I feel like there's we as we know when we're surrendering to something. People often feel we know when we're not.
SPEAKER_04If you're thinking, if you're you're starting to reflect on morality and you're maybe you read like the Bible and the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads or the Quran or whatever, and then people say, I just felt like I was sort of being led somewhere by this text. And maybe that's the thing that is required. You need to have this feeling that there is something which is guiding you or pulling you. A bit like your your friend who was next to you in your psychedelic experience, where like they're there, not physically, not in a way, but that there's just some way I can feel that it's there. And to surrender to God is to allow yourself to follow that where it takes you. Something like that, maybe.
SPEAKER_05Because that is that is uh look Imagine like there's just ultimate love out there for you. Ultimate love that you're just like, man, I don't want to experience that. Like ultimately, like that love is I believe like the ultimate experience, ultimate ultimate feeling, the ultimate like reason for being, like love, give and receive love. Imagine there's that ultimate love up there that could be yours. You're rejecting it, and that's if you're saying like what am I surrendering to, imagine you're surrendering to ultimate love, and you're like, and think of it like that.
SPEAKER_04Was was was your um I'm not gonna dodge this question by the way, but this idea that you're expounding here, and and sounds like like quite passionately, like when did this develop?
SPEAKER_01Fascinating. Joe Wellett talks about there being unconditional love out there that he's opened himself out to. He also recognizes that there's a danger of fear of that thing, and there's a danger of pride in me that I don't want to surrender to this thing. But he opened himself out and he's discovered a whole load of clarity. What's going on there? I don't really know what's going on there. But it seems very obvious to Joe that giving it a go is something that's totally possible. You can ask and seek and knock, and perhaps the door will be opened to you. I also understand Alex very much. Like, what am I meant to actually do? To surrender to somebody I don't really know is there yet? I totally understand where Alex is coming from. I totally understand where Joe is coming from. And then look at Theo and Luke. Kind of they're watching on, they're kind of looking back and forwards, and it's Luke at the end who says, When Alex says all the Christian content channels are gonna, you know, make reaction videos to this, notice what Luke says at the end of this video.
SPEAKER_02Where can people find you?
SPEAKER_04On those Christian response channels, probably, that are currently saying, like, you know, you've made a good case for it.
SPEAKER_03Atheist for it. Okay, yeah. So probably that.
SPEAKER_02You're probably thinking more about religion, to be fair, than I think I ever have.
SPEAKER_04Good. Well, that's a that's your intention. That's an immense compliment. Um, I suppose it is, yeah. I like to get people thinking about things, and that's what you asked at the beginning. Like, what's the motivation?
SPEAKER_01Most people in this country are not where I am on faith matters, and most people in this country are not where Alex is on these matters. I think a lot more people in this culture, in this cultural moment, are where Luke is, they are where Theo is, they are where Joe Weller is. And so that's my reaction. My reaction is to Joe Weller and the Wafflin podcast. And I'm just fascinated that there are people who are wanting to give it a go, who are wanting to open up to unconditional love. And if that's you, and maybe you're a Christian looking on, um, I think it's quite tempting to think that the way people come to faith is through the contingency argument for God's existence or dealing with objections to the faith. I think the way that actually people meet God, and Alex knows this, it's it's they encounter him, they meet him. And the way that people can do that is going the Jo Weller route of opening themselves up to God and saying, unconditional love, God, are you there? I want to surrender to you. And then I think that concept of God needs to be filled out with a heck of a lot of detail. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. There's this invisible God that you can surrender to, but you don't know who that is unless you know him in the face of Jesus. And so there's definitely a journey that that Jo Weller can go on in terms of meeting the one who is unconditional love. So my advice to Christians is keep on presenting Jesus to people, but also why don't you challenge them to surrender to God? Why don't you be Jo Weller in somebody else's life and say, give it a go? Why don't you pray? You got nothing to lose. And if you are more a Jo Weller type, well, fantastic. You can pray like that. You can open yourself up to unconditional love. But I wouldn't just open yourself up to any old spiritual power. The haunted houses that Jo Weller has visited, um, there are dark forces that are out there. You want to actually be choosy about who you open up to. Alex is right about that. You do need to be choosy about who you surrender to. So my advice to you is to get to know Jesus because I think he is the God that you can actually trust with your life. To discover more about him, why don't you go to 321course.com and you'll discover this Jesus character. He reveals the kind of God that you can actually believe in. Go to 321cour.com, start an account, it's totally free, and in eight sessions we'll show you God, the world, and you through the lens of Jesus. And if you want to think further about the ways in which the faith conversation is changing in our times, we've got a conference called Responding to the Rebirth. On the 22nd of November in central London, we're going to gather together. We're going to think about the changing dynamics, the vibe shifts about how people are now more open to faith than certainly any other time in my lifetime, and how we as the church can respond to this cultural moment. Perhaps I'll see you on the 22nd of November. Give this video a like, share it around the place, and subscribe so that we can see you on the next one. Goodbye.