SPEAKER_03

Well, hello, and thank you so much for downloading this episode of the Speak Life Podcast. It's episode 600. Wow, I can't believe it. That's quite a high number. Um, so it just feels right to mark the occasion uh somehow and say thank you to all of you listeners for choosing to download and listen to this podcast. We've been going for 600 episodes, and we're gonna keep going. And hopefully providing you with Christ-centered, thought-provoking content. So, hopefully, to continue in that vein, in this episode, you are gonna hear Glenn Scrivener reflecting on Jordan Peterson's recent appearance on the George Janko podcast. And George Janko kind of pressed Jordan Peterson on why he doesn't call himself a Christian, and Jordan Peterson pauses for a very long period of time. It's a kind of deafening silence, and then he says something quite interesting. And Glenn has some important reflections here that are useful to consider for when we're looking at these high-profile figures who are investigating faith. But this is important stuff for us to consider in day-to-day life as well. When we're inviting people to own their faith, as it were, and publicly identify as Christians. It's important to make sure that first they understand what it means to be a Christian and what faith is and in which God are they putting that faith. These are really important questions for all of us to consider, I think. So without further ado, I will hand straight over to Glen Scrivener.

SPEAKER_05

Many have tried to pin Jordan Peterson down on his faith. Most have hit a brick wall.

SPEAKER_02

People often ask me, do you believe in God? Which I don't I don't like that question. Yeah, I don't like the question. I don't like that question, but I find it an off-putting question. The reason I don't like to answer it is because A, I don't like to be boxed in, and B, because I don't know what the person means by believe or God. And they think they know.

SPEAKER_04

Some have gotten through, like Alex O'Connor. Let me put it this way: if if I went back in time with a Panasonic video camera and put that camera in front of the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, would the little L C D screen show a man walk out of that tomb? I would say suspect yes. Or like Stephen Butler. So you believe that Jesus was God?

SPEAKER_05

God. Yeah. But as we watch these ten minutes of the George Janko podcast, we will see why it is unwise to try to hold Jordan Peterson to his Christian beliefs. I get why Janko does it. I respect his forthrightness, but here's my claim. We can debate it in the comments. Jordan Peterson does not need to be challenged to own his Christianity. Something else entirely is called for. And as we watch this, I think you'll get to see what it is that's actually called for. Let's watch it together.

SPEAKER_00

Why is it that when people ask you if you're a Christian, you don't really answer it like straightforward, like, yeah, I follow Jesus Christ. I'm a Christian.

SPEAKER_02

Because the the question is almost always manipulative. That it's not really a question. It's a demand, it's a veiled demand that I declare my allegiance in the manner they see fit at that moment. It's like, no, thank you. First of all, that's a relatively private manner. And second, just exactly what the hell are you up to? So that's the general.

SPEAKER_05

He's right about that. There are all sorts of motivations for people to say, ah, Jordan Peterson is on our team. We are the cool kids, and he doesn't want to be manipulated in that way. I totally get that.

SPEAKER_02

And I'm not interested in trumpeting it. You know, I'm still figuring things out, and I'm trying to explain what I'm learning as I go. And I don't want to parade my virtuous faith, you know, as a proclamation. I think that's false.

SPEAKER_05

This is right at the heart of what I'm talking about. Jordan Peterson thinks that faith is something to parade, something to trumpet, something to be proud of, and he's not interested in that. Well, if that's what he thinks faith is, I understand his position.

SPEAKER_02

You know, people can decide for themselves if they're interested what I'm up to by watching, if they're interested what I do. They can derive their own conclusions and judge them by their fruit. That's the theory. Right.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Judging by the fruit. I just And I when people say too that they're a Christian, I actually generally don't really know what they mean. I mean, you guys laid it out and you provided some indication of what you meant in this decision that you just made. That's actually worth attending to, in my estimation, more than a casual declaration. And so I'm not that interested in casual declarations. And people declare their Christianity all the time. And part of me thinks not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, right? So be careful what you claim. It's a high bar. I agree.

SPEAKER_05

See, I wouldn't agree to that at that stage, and I think this is a false view of faith that we do not want to hold Jordan Peterson to. If this is what he thinks faith is, I don't think we want him to hitch his wagon to this vision of faith. The people we are to judge by their fruit are false teachers in Matthew chapter 7. We judge false teaching by their lifestyle. We don't necessarily judge our own personal faith by our works. And yet Peterson ties faith to works so closely that if we try to tie him to that vision of faith, we've lost faith and he's lost faith. I would not agree with Jordan Peterson that faith is a high bar. Salvation is not about getting over a high bar. It's about Jesus meeting you in a very low pit. I would not agree to Jordan's view of faith here.

SPEAKER_00

And I I could tell this is very like sensitive to you because I feel like you're always you know what it is, that Jubilee thing isn't your first rodeo. It's not the first time you've been around wolves that are trying to manipulate you. And I understand that it is a touchy subject.

SPEAKER_05

On the Jubilee-surrounded issue, Jordan Peterson actually makes a really helpful clarification in this podcast.

SPEAKER_02

The people who were arguing with me were told a different story than I was told. Oh. I was told that it was Jordan Peterson against 20 atheists. They were told that it was a Christian against 20 atheists. And so that first young man, who was very disrespectful, he said something about um me being a Christian, and I said, I didn't I didn't make a claim to be a Christian. And he said, Well, what do you mean? This is a Christian against 20 atheists. You don't even know where you are. And I thought, what the hell? I don't know. I don't understand that. That wasn't that wasn't my understanding.

SPEAKER_05

He thought it was going to be Jordan Peterson surrounded by 20 others. They were told it's going to be a Christian surrounded by 20 others, which explains everything about how it unfolded in the moment. You're a Christian.

SPEAKER_01

You say that. I haven't claimed that. Oh, what is this? Is this Christians versus atheist? I don't know. You don't know where you are right now. Don't be a smart ass. Well, either you're a Christian or you're not. Oh, the either you're a Christian or you're not. Which one is it? I could be either of them, but I don't have to tell you. You could be you. You don't have to tell me. I was under the impression I was invited to talk to a Christian. Am I not talking to a Christian? No, you were invited to I think everyone should look at the title of the YouTube channel. You're probably in the wrong YouTube video. You're really quite something, you are. Aren't I? But you're really quite nothing, right? You're not a Christian.

SPEAKER_02

I'm done with him.

SPEAKER_05

So that was something new that I learned from this podcast. I was very grateful for that.

SPEAKER_00

Does the Bible verse scare you when they say that they'll deny me in public? I'll deny you in front of my father. Because you're denying them because they're trying to set you in a trap. But would you not have confidence?

SPEAKER_02

I'm denying the questionnaire ownership over my tongue. I don't like having people put words in my mouth.

SPEAKER_00

So what what what do you classify yourself as? Like if Jesus came down right now, would you be his son? Or would you be somebody who's studying Jesus? Like what where does your heart lie right now? Who is your God? And and not, I'm not trying to trap you or be disrespectful. I just want to know where your heart lies because the wisdom that you're pouring out into people is something that, dude, we promote it on our show and we learn from and we grow from it. So I just want to know who because I see you as my mentor.

SPEAKER_02

What do you think?

SPEAKER_00

You're watching? I see you as my perspective is that you are a God-fearing man, you're learning and you're taking what God gave you and you're teaching others from your fruits. If I tasted them, I said this is a righteous man that's after God's heart, like David. But then your mouth will say, Who says that I'm a Christian? So it does confuse me as somebody who does watch you.

SPEAKER_02

That's a good answer.

SPEAKER_05

And here comes the silence.

SPEAKER_02

To what you already said. I'm trying to find my way. And I'm communicating with people about that voyage as clearly as I possibly can. You're just being honest.

SPEAKER_05

And I think that is true about Jordan Peterson. I don't think he's boxing clever. I don't think he's dodging. Like when when he's asked, where do you stand on the Jesus question? He genuinely doesn't know. So it's ironic when he's called hypocritical for not actually nailing his colours to that mask. I think on that issue, he's being very, very clear with everybody about where he stands with Jesus. Whatever frustrations people have with Jordan Peterson, I don't think we should be frustrated thinking that he is being duplicitous. He is being painfully open about this, painfully honest, as he says here.

SPEAKER_02

I'd rather let other people decide. Yeah. I'd rather let other people I'm I'm public, painfully public. And so people can draw their own conclusions. And if they want a casual conclusion, I'm not interested in providing that. And so I don't want to tie everything up in a bow and deliver it as if it's something simple. It's not simple. And so it's not like I'm trying to be opaque. You know, when you asked me that question, I'm looking for the words. It's why I asked you what you thought. If I could find the words that would be so sufficiently solid, then I would use them.

SPEAKER_00

Have you ever asked God to help you with that?

SPEAKER_02

Yes, I would say I've asked that all the time. All the time. You know, part of seeking for the right words is that's that's an attitude of continual prayer. Is this the right word? You ought to feel that out.

SPEAKER_05

So faith gets tied to prayer, and prayer is Jordan Peterson seeking for the right words that he is meant to say. Um, to that I would say that faith is actually receiving the word of God as the simple person that we are, as the person that's always prone to go astray. And certainly Jordan Peterson is very aware that he is liable to go astray, but he puts himself in the position of the one who is speaking the word and therefore needs prayer for help to be the prophet that he wants to be. Faith, though, in the sense that George Jenko is interested in, is the receptive faith of welcoming the word of God into your own heart. And that is a very different kind of prayer, I would say.

SPEAKER_02

And so you feel to see if you're stepping on firm ground. And if I find firm ground, then I'll use those words. And if not, then I try not to. And so you can't decide a priori what words are going to come to you. Right? You can try to find the words that put firm ground under your feet and be content with them.

SPEAKER_05

This is all about him as a speaker of words of truth rather than as a recipient of the word of truth.

SPEAKER_02

So when people ask me that question, I guess partly because I'm I'm leery of the question first. There aren't words that spring to mind that will satisfy an ill-aimed question.

SPEAKER_05

True.

SPEAKER_02

People think it's obvious. They ask things that do you believe in God? And I don't answer that question because I don't know what the hell you mean by the question. That there isn't a more difficult question than that. Like, that is the hardest question.

SPEAKER_05

It's also the most basic question. Um, it it's hard from one point of view. It's also the question that undergirds our very ability to ask questions. Um, this is what's interesting is that Peterson knows this. He he knows that faith is ineradicable from the human person. It is the necessary precondition for all our understanding of the world. We need a value structure in order to see the world, therefore, we need a hierarchy of values, therefore, we need to inhabit a narrative. This is a faith-filled enterprise, and nothing in life gets off the ground without faith. Jordan Peterson knows all that, and yet he wants to say that faith in God is the most difficult of things, and I understand that, but it is also the most basic of things, the most primordial, the most fundamental. And it is that childlike trust that is the very essence of beginning in the Christian life and continuing in the Christian life. And it's that kind of faith that George Janko is asking about and that other Christians are asking about. So I can agree with Jordan Peterson here. Faith is a very profound, deep subject that we will never plumb the depths of, but I disagree with Jordan Peterson. It is also simple. It is also basic, it is also fundamental.

SPEAKER_02

Well, it's simple. You say yes or no. It's simple, is it? It's simple, is it? The entire religious enterprise of the human race for the multiple millennia we've been pursuing our upward aim, that's all simple. It's not simple. What does believe mean?

SPEAKER_05

What does believe mean? First of all, it means simply receiving Jesus as a totally needy, sinful, simple, erring human. John chapter 1, verse 12 says, To all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. Do you see how receiving and believing are parallel to one another? They're basically the same thing. It is the simple childlike trust of welcoming Jesus into your life to begin again with him. You must be born again, says Jesus in John chapter 3. Again, you can make faith too difficult when actually there is a simplicity to faith, there's a foundational character to faith. Well, let's go to Matthew chapter 11, verse 25. At that time Jesus said, I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you are pleased to do. The wise and learned have the things of the kingdom hidden from them. The little children receive everything. They come to the Son as children, and they receive from the Father. What do they receive? Well, verse 27, All things have been committed to me, says Jesus, by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son, and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. And then he says to the whole world, Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls, for my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. The life of faith begins now and stretches on into eternity. It takes us through many dark valleys, and we will have to plumb many profound depths in the life of God, in the knowledge of God. It is a hard thing in that sense, it's also a profoundly simple thing. It's a profoundly basic thing. So does Jordan Peterson need to be held to his Christian faith? Does he need to be challenged to own his Christianity? I say no. He needs to discover what Christianity is. Christ's yoke is easy. His burden is light. We do not need to challenge Jordan Peterson again and again to own the burden that he thinks Christian faith is. He doesn't need to own his Christianity. He needs to discover true Christianity.

SPEAKER_02

What does believe mean? Does it mean you go to the cross willingly? And if that's what it meant, would you say that you believe? Because that's what it means.

SPEAKER_05

Jordan Peterson does not mean you going to the cross willingly so much as it means going to the foot of the cross and looking up the same way Barabbas looked up to Jesus on Good Friday and said to himself, That should be me. And yet he died in my place. That's what Barabbas could say on Good Friday. It's what you can say today. You go to the foot of the cross and and you discover that he has switched places with you. And you can receive that like a little child. And to take that yoke onto yourself, it's the one yoke that actually fits well. Every other yoke is burdensome, but to have Jesus as your Lord and as your teacher, his yoke is easy and his burden is light, and you will find rest for your soul.

SPEAKER_02

So be careful what you claim to believe.

SPEAKER_05

That is true. Be careful what you claim to believe, and be careful trying to hold people to a false Christianity. It's not just true of Jordan Peterson. I see it happening all the time. When you share your faith with somebody and they say, Yeah, I'm kind of a Christian, and then you say, okay, fine. I want to hold you to whatever notion of Christianity that you have. And I want you to really give it a go, really try doing this Christian thing, as though your friend understands what Christianity is. But your friend probably thinks that Christianity is what Jordan Peterson thinks Christianity is. Go to the cross willingly yourself. And then try it, give it a go. And they will end up so very burdened. Our friends don't need to be challenged to own a notion of spirituality that they already have. They need to discover true Christianity. They need to discover Jesus. So that's my message. Stop challenging Jordan Peterson to own his Christianity. Instead, introduce him to the real thing. And if you're a Christian trying to share your faith with others, stop trying to challenge them to be more religious according to the mold of religion that they have inherited from the world or maybe inherited from Jordan Peterson podcasts. Christ's yoke is easy. His burden is light. And as Jordan Peterson says on the last day, there'll be all sorts of people who point to all sorts of Christ-like behavior. Lord, Lord, did we not? Did we not? Did we not? And the real issue is Jesus would just say, I never knew you. We did not have that covenant relationship of knowing. And you have that not by aping Christ-like behavior, but by receiving, like a little child, the kingdom that is given to you. Come to me all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest, says the Lord Jesus. If you want to discover more about this beautiful good news, why don't you go to 321Course.com and discover life according to Jesus? You start an account so that it remembers your progress, and then over eight sessions you can discover Jesus' vision for God, the world, and yourself. It's also a great way of you sharing your faith with other people. So that you don't challenge them to shoulder religious burdens, but that you offer them the Lord Jesus Christ. That's the heart of Christianity. Accept no substitutes. So why don't you subscribe to us so that we can see you on the next one? God bless.