We have the excellent Gavin Ortland from the excellent channel Truth Unites. He is the author of many books, uh, and he is the contributor to a new book just coming out called The Gospel After Christendom. It's written together with a bunch of other Keller fellows, of which Gavin is one. His chapter called Exposing Unbelief as Unlivable is worth the price of the book as well. And he is on the line to talk about this book. Thank you so much, Gavin.
SPEAKER_00Glenn, yeah, looking forward to it. Love the work you do. This will be fun.
SPEAKER_01So, Unbelief is unlivable. Make your case.
SPEAKER_00All right. Well, I'm drawing from Charles Taylor, who's a sociologist. And uh looking at just modern Western culture and the sense of disenchantment that I think, I don't think most people will need, we will need to work super hard to convince them that things are uh rather somber and dark in the world right now. I think many people feel that internally and see that externally. But I'm I, you know, even looking at things like uh Japan in 2021 appointing a minister of loneliness. You know, so I'm getting into some just particular facts that are flashpoints that kind of make you say, hey, what's going on with this? Um, and looking through I talk about three different characteristics of the modern world disenchantment, uh, loneliness. That's the one where I'm going into that, and then a sense of meaninglessness. And I'm trying to make the case that we don't feel these things consciously all the time, but actually just studying human history gives you this sense of perspective and context that we're lonelier today than people were in the past. Depression and anxiety are higher. Suicide rates are higher despite living in more affluent societies. There's all kinds of indicators, not all is well in the modern world. And so I'm reflecting upon that. And then my basic appeal for Christians is let's think about this in terms of how we share the hope of Christ. I hope that um the gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ will fall upon hearts today like water onto parched land, because that's what I believe it is. That's how I experience it. It's uh like walking through the wardrobe into Narnia. It's this sense of uh endless wonder. That's a great word for it, wonder, enchantment, uh, the thrill of uh, you know, you think if you're uh a naturalistic atheist who doesn't believe there's any sort of afterlife or anything ultimate, and then you come to believe in the resurrection of Jesus. This is a movement toward joy and toward wonder. And so I'm thinking about Paul's speech in the book of Acts, chapter 17, and what we can learn from that, and how basically how we communicate God as the answer to these sort of modern ills that we're talking about. But I I I won't go on too long. Let's we could work it through here.
SPEAKER_01So meaninglessness um is a feature of human life, though, isn't it? I mean, ever since Adam, uh we have been born east of Eden. Uh, you think of then the next chapter of the Bible, chapter four. You've got, you know, Cain is like this restless wanderer upon the earth. Uh the Old Testament is full of this theme. You know, Job is asking why questions of God at least 20 times in the book. You've got the book of Psalms, in which people are constantly saying, you know, why are you so far from saving me so far from the words of my groaning? Ecclesiastes uh is is the great text in all of ancient literature, I guess, on this meaningless, meaningless experience that we have. Um, so how are we going to differentiate between meaninglessness as a feature of the human condition and whatever it is that is this modern meaninglessness that uh that you're talking about?
SPEAKER_00Okay. So some of these passages might be uh I I might put them in more of a category of suffering and confusion and failing to see God's purposes rather than the belief that there is no meaning ultimately to be seen ever and at any time. Sometimes we hear the distinction between subjective meaning and objective meaning. Uh so you know, subjective meaning is, hey, I can find things that will make my life have a sense of coherence and maybe purpose in the short term, but objective meaning being, is there anything outside of myself uh uh external to my own mental awareness that I can discover that gives it meaning? I think modern meaninglessness is this sense of ultimate objective meaninglessness. There's not even a meaning to be discovered. Um as bad as Job's travails were, I don't think he was like the modern existentialist. Uh when he's asking God why, he's still asking God. Um there's a God to be petitioned and a God to even be sort of assailed with questions like, well, you know, what have you done? But uh Camus has this image of Sisyphus rolling the boulder up and down the hill. Well, there's no God to even ask. I mean, how terrible is it when the suffering uh isn't really even evil, even because it's not a deviation from any standard. It's it's just, I mean, that's that's ultimate meaninglessness. I honestly, every time I think about it, uh it appears to me terrible again. And uh some of these existentialists can help us think it through.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that that is interesting. And even in Ecclesiastes, there's great text about meaninglessness. Um, you know, this is the end of the matter. He finishes off in chapter 12, fear God and obey his commandments. And there is absolutely like he's not an atheist, is he? Like the um the teacher in Ecclesiastes, he's more of a I often teach him as he's not an atheist, he's more of a crummy Christ. He is he is a son of David who himself is subject to all the same suffering that you and I are subject to, and therefore has to live under the curse, as opposed to the sort of Christ, the sort of son of David who could himself get through death and come out the other side. And so his meaninglessness uh is is not the absolute meaninglessness of a of a of a Sart or somebody like that. Tell me where that kind of meaninglessness and Camus' meaninglessness um sort of took them uh back in the 20th century.
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah. I love thinking about these older atheists like Sartre and Camus, and even going back to Nietzsche. I I love reading Friedrich Nietzsche even earlier. I think they had a kind of rigor and honesty in thinking through the implications of their atheism, and it did take them to dark places. You think of Nietzsche in this famous passage in his book, The Gay Science, where he the madman runs into the market proclaiming the death of God, and the images he uses are so poignant. He's saying things like, Is there still any up or down? Well, that conveys a sense of the meaninglessness of it, the sense of just lostness and trying to sort out uh reality now that you've lost this sort of transcendent anchor and framework. Um, for Sartre, his his idea is existence preceding essence. Um, to boil it down, you know, he he doesn't think there's a prototype or blueprint for the world, for human nature, for life. There's basically nothing. It's supposed to be. We are free to invent our own meaning, our own morality. Um, that may not seem as horrifying to us as it ultimately seems to me when I think about it. You know, a metaphor I like to use is imagine you're doing a puzzle. I like to do puzzles with my children, and uh puzzles have meaning. Someone designed them and put a picture on the cover and the pieces fit, but imagine you're doing a puzzle and there's no picture on the cover, and the pieces don't have a meaning. They don't fit together.
SPEAKER_01It's more like legally then, Gavin. And and and is isn't that what a like a modern existentialist would say? Like, you know, don't get so pinned down to the right answer. And isn't it wonderfully liberating to be told that there are uh a million different ways of putting these a thousand pieces together? And maybe we're in a better state if we try to create our own meaning. What would you say to that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that well, my kids love Legos as well, and there is this sense I I maybe I need to come up with a better metaphor because that you're not the first person who's immediately gone from puzzles to Legos to try to make this point that uh perhaps actually uh being free. I mean, the the very word free sounds good. Uh, we want to be free, and perhaps this might seem initially attractive. I think when we do think it through, we start to see where that will ultimately end up is actually a very confining place. Actually, I think a lot of hearts right now will be less eager for that. I actually think there's a deep thirst for a sense of meaning and boundaries in many hearts right now. One way we can see that is look to the moral realm, especially when we've been mistreated. Do we I mean, Sartre, for example, says that morality is like art. So we're just drawing, we're constructing, it's like Legos, we're just building. Okay, so we can build our own moral framework. Okay, now what happens when some my next door neighbor builds a moral framework that is abhorrent and is stepping on my toes and is uh causing me great wrong? We all know what it's like to feel violated and to feel mistreated. Um, in the midst of that experience, we're gonna come back to the idea of a self-constructed Lego-like morality, which is one aspect of meaning, and probably feel a little differently about it. Total freedom, I don't think, is what any human heart wants. I think what we want is the right amount of balance between freedom and structure. And uh, if there's no meaning to discover, if it's only what we invent, it's actually a crushing burden. Uh, I don't think we can live like that. Uh the moral realm is one way we can see that. I mean, uh the the image of Camus, the other existentialist, is Sisyphus rolling the boulder up and down the hill. This is from Greek mythology. He's doomed to roll a boulder up and down a hill for all eternity, and that's his image for human life. And uh, you know, I would say that this gives you a sense of the emotions of it more, is there's no meaning, and therefore what we're doing doesn't have any ultimate consequence.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Doesn't he say something like we must imagine Sisyphus happy? Is that his line?
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yeah, that is the last sentence of the book, yeah. Uh, which is so interesting. And so he he's not arguing for a nihilism where um everything just boils down, it doesn't mean it it's uh it's unlivable, it's unhappy. He doesn't get to that conclusion. But I and I interact with Camus a lot in my current writing project. I I look at that and I say, Isn't the whole purpose of that myth of Sisyphus to get at the idea of futility? And uh you know It's kind of hell.
SPEAKER_01It's an image of hell.
SPEAKER_00Like Yeah, I I don't know how anyone can really think through after after 10 trillion years of Sisyphus doing the same thing over and over and really feel that he's happy. I think only to the extent that he's not thinking about what's happening could he be happy. Because the whole point is you can't get to the goal. You the boulder is never going to stay at the top of the mountain. And uh uh and because there is, and so therefore, there is no goal to get to. And and that's the image for human existence for Camus. Uh, I do I do find that crushing. I think most people could look at that and sympathize with why I would find it crushing and why, you know, I I guess I could just put it as a question, yeah, can you really imagine Sisyphus happy? Would you be happy if you were Sisyphus? Think about, you know, the hundredth time you've done it. And there goes the boulder. You've almost got to the top, the boulder lurches out of your grasp and rolls back down the hill, and you go through this emotional thought process of how long should I wait before I go and get it? Um, you know, how far will I get up next time? And and uh the more you look at what you're doing, I think it's very difficult to feel happy about that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's it's cyclical, and therefore there is not a narrative arc that leads to a kind of a redemptive end. You know, yeah, there there isn't a guy. It you just return back on yourself, return back on yourself, return back on yourself. Um, but all this sort of makes me think of, you know, Jordan Peterson is very much influenced by the existentials and will commonly quote, you know, his Jung and his Nietzsche, and and um he will he will kind of frame it as in a very nihilistic, chaotic world, then we do need to take burdens upon ourselves and take the biggest burden that we can upon ourselves to take our cross up, and there he'll use kind of Christian language, and to march forthrightly up the hill. And he's been constantly asked, you know, to what? Like, like what is at the top? And and he's he's a little bit cagey about what the answer is. And I I just wonder whether some of what Peterson is doing is saying to a nihilistic, meaningless world, um, well, tidy your room, take onto yourself a little bit of burden, a little bit more burden, a little bit more burden. That actually he's kind of doing the camus thing, but he's using a bit more biblical language of take onto yourself personal responsibility and and shoulder as much of that responsibility as you possibly can, and we must imagine that person to be happy, or you know, that that that is meaning in itself, and yet there is not an ending to that story. It it does seem to be like the you're you're bound upon this sort of cycle of burden.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And someone might say to us, well, hey, uh, how is your view less cyclical? Um, you know, what what's ultimately the escape from that? And I think it's wonderful to go back to the very basic Christian vision, which is of the the the Trinity. And uh the fundamental dynamic going on for all eternity is love and joy in the heart of God between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And it's a message I think we can invite our friends to consider is okay, let's, you know, we don't want to be unfair to another perspective, but trying to chart out carefully the differences between different worldviews, um, what what a Christian ultimately thinks. And this is where, you know, my case is that unbelief is unlivable, and I know we'll talk about that. But um looking over the way at the alternative, a Christian view is saying the ultimate reality is love and joy and relationship, and that's where we're ultimately headed. And so the nature of the activity is not carrying a burden or doing work, it's ultimately love and enjoyment and and worship and praise and so forth. And uh, but we'll it'll be fun to tease this out.
SPEAKER_01And there's and there's redemption in the the the narrative arc kind of finishes with um a eukatastrophe, as J. R. R. Tolkien would put it, that that's just as there has been a catastrophic fall, so there is and this is the most meaning-given-giving thing, that that which was sad becomes untrue, there, thereby giving meaning and dignity to all the sadness that we have experienced in the Valley of Deep Shadow. And and and again, I think with without so yeah, Trinity begins the story in love, kind of resurrection finishes the story in in a union of love, and and thereby we can kind of render the the journey in the middle to to actually be meaningful. Um, and I think without that, um yeah, how how can you not despair?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I I I I think a lot of people, I mean, as I was writing this chapter, I was researching modern culture and so forth. And I I don't have the idea that most people in secular contexts are feeling despair at a conscious level. I really don't think most people are walking around thinking like this. I do think that is there. And sometimes what I've discovered is there's an experiential element to it where all of a sudden in a moment of crisis or in a moment of suffering, or even in a moment of profound joy and pleasure, you have this deeper awareness. Um, there's a there's a sense of barrenness. You know, I I start off the whole chapter talking about a scene in the C. S. Lewis novel where a character is experiencing what he calls the dry and choking places. And it's it he but it takes him suffering to actually come to terms with that. I'll never forget Tim Keller's book, Making Sense of God. He has a sentence, he has a chapter on happiness, and he has a sentence in the chapter on happiness that basically says it takes most people years to discover how discontent they are. I thought, wow, is that true? Are most people so discontent that it takes time and even that amount of time to come to terms with it? But I think there's something to that. Many modern people are deeply restless, and it takes some time to come to terms with it. Sometimes it's in the midst of care. I think a lot of men they get into their career, and uh all of a sudden you're 35 and you've accomplished a lot of your dreams, and you're there's this sense of emptiness, and it sort of emerges in different moments of life like this, and you say, Is this all there is? What is it all for? And those give us great opportunity to tell people just how much more there really is.
SPEAKER_01I think it takes great pastoral sensitivity, though, doesn't it? In in order to uncover this sense of meaninglessness. Um I loved getting to know Randy Newman, the evangelist, uh, who wrote uh questioning evangelism and and very sadly he he he died quite suddenly um uh a year or two ago. And and um he I did this conference with him uh where he was he was talking about, you know, do we have an evangelism that only works with those who are flat on their backs? Or, you know, could we also have an evangelism that that works with those who are full of joy and want somebody to thank? And uh the way he's he sort of phrased it is um if we're constantly going after the people who are flat on their backs, sometimes our evangelism will sound like um, you know, but don't you feel crushing burdens and meaninglessness and an utter sense of nihilism most of the time? And then the non-Christian's like, I wasn't before I started talking to you. And I think he he kind of puts his finger on like if if we're constantly trying to uncover meaninglessness, the way that we do that might be quite important, don't you think?
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah, exactly. Yeah, we we don't want to be the ones causing depression in our friends and sort of so on and so forth. But but but you know, you even just asking basic questions. I think a lot of people are distracted from religious questions today. They they don't think about meaning as much, we don't think about death as much. I think modern Western society is very good at hiding death from us. Um, Pascal said there's two great questions of life: meaning and death. Uh, what are we doing in this world and what happens when it's over? And uh, but he said we're we're distracted. We use diversions to distract us from these ultimate questions. And and you know, it uh with pastoral sensitivity, with love, with uh wisdom and timing and tact, it we can simply draw our friends into consideration. And sometimes it will they might experience it as a loving thing to do, particularly if it's done with gentleness and patience in a relationship. But maybe they're I think more people are like this than we realize. They're 28 or they're 35 or they're 42 and they're in their life and and something isn't quite working. And it, you know, they they've they've not gotten what they wanted, or what can be worse, they've achieved their dreams and it felt flat and it felt empty. And there can be oper we want to look for those moments to ask, you know, um, what is the ultimate meaning of life? What is the goal? Where is happiness found? And and draw people out of distraction into consideration of these questions. And um I think there's actually, I I I think there's enough despair floating around in the world right now. We'll find many people who might be ready to go there with us and and just consider these ultimate questions. Once we're into that, it's much easier to navigate and try to help people think through because it is hard to find something that is really livable within a purely secular framework. Right.
SPEAKER_01So tell me, somebody who is experiencing this kind of meaninglessness, um, what are some of the first things that you're going to say to such a person in order to wake them up to the enchantment that is all around?
SPEAKER_00Oh boy. It the first thing I feel is my utter need for God's help, my utter inability in myself to do evangelism. Uh C.S. Lewis talks about how in the modern era uh doing evangelism will feel a little bit like breaking a spell. Um, there's this sort of spell of disenchantment. And I think I I think of this like for people to have a sense in their hearts of God, a sense of their need for forgiveness, a sense in their hearts of desire for heaven, desire to worship God. Well, I, you know, we cannot produce this. Uh, we are very dependent upon the Holy Spirit working through us. So I want to be prayerful. I also want to be a good listener. Different people are coming from different backgrounds. So I want to understand, you know, I don't want to start too far in. Uh, in the book of Acts, when Paul preaches in Acts 17, he starts so much further back than when he preaches the gospel in Acts chapter 13. Uh, chapter 13 in the synagogue to a Jewish audience, he just basically says, Jesus is the Messiah, repent and believe. And there are some people, and are I mean, I've had times where I've had the privilege of leading someone to the Lord, and they really were at that point. They just needed someone to help point them to Jesus and tell them that God loves them and here's how you repent, and so forth. But a lot of people are more in the Acts 17 place where they don't have a background context. And so in those cases, I think what we want to start doing is just all the way back at the doctrine of God, uh, helping our friends understand what it means to be a creature, uh, that that basic idea that we There is a sense of accountability to our Creator. We are not totally free. A sense of we need forgiveness. You know, we can't start just going right to Jesus dying on the cross when there is absolutely no sense of guilt or shame or need for forgiveness. So I think Paul gives us a good model there because he really starts at the basics and he's saying there is a God. He is uh he talks about divine God's transcendence and uh height and otherness, he talks about his imminence and his nearness, and then he finally gets to Jesus, but it's it's he's really deconstructing their view of God first. And I really think for for many, I wonder if that's where we need to start is asking questions to understand what's their perception of God, and then you know, where can we um lovingly present what what Jesus would would challenge them with and shepherd them toward the gospel message, but it's going to be a little bit more of a circuitous process. Um, even C.S. Lewis himself, you know, he he he he had a long, he in Surprised by Joy, his autobiography, he compares his conversion to a chess match, and it's uh, you know, reading English literature and he's losing a rook or a tower year by year. Uh, he's a theist in 1929 for almost two years before he becomes a Christian. And I just wonder if for many people it's going to be this longer pop process. And one basic implication for that would be patience to recognize that this might be more circuitous as we're kind of getting through the background and almost the pre-evangelism before we get to the gospel. So those are, I guess, starting points for me. I'm curious how you think about that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I I wonder what you think about this. And I wonder what I think about it too, as I kind of articulate this sort of vague question that I have. Um, so much of the gospel after Christendom is about uh the different sort of cultural context we're in. We're not in a Billy Graham world anymore, in which people believe in God and they believe in heaven and hell, and they want to know, you know, is there an assurance of forgiveness that I can have? So, you know, so I know where I'm going when I die. Billy Graham comes along, he connects the dots for people, and they can begin the Christian life, and it's more straightforward. One way of telling that story is to then say, but now it's 2025, and unfortunately, we can't just do the bridge diagram with people anymore. And unfortunately, and this is the way it's often framed, unfortunately, we can't just do the four spiritual laws, bish, bash, bosh, they're done. Unfortunately, goes the narrative, we have to talk about the doctrine of God, and we have to talk about our accountability before we get them. We have to talk about, you know, our complicity in evil in Adam, and we have to talk about the need for forgiveness and our sin and and and the curse of hell that Christ needs to take on himself. And we and unfortunately, we you know, whereas there is another way of framing it, isn't there? The the way of framing it is that maybe actually the 1950s was actually a blip in the history of the last 2,000 years. And and much more frequently and much more commonly, what evangelism looked like was walking people through the creed. It it was actually giving a much richer explanation of Christ in all the scripture and the the beauty of the Trinity and and the wonder of the world to come, and getting into all the sorts of matters that evangelism is now dealing with. You know, your channel, you didn't start your channel wanting to get into denominational issues, but those are the issues that people are really interested in now. And now we've got to think about sacraments, and now we've got to think about the filioque clause of the creed, and now we've got to, and there's there's a way of framing that as this is a loss, this is a backward step, and we've got to slog through all of that stuff so that we can get back to the bridge diagram. But I I want to make the case that may, maybe this is uh a positive opportunity to preach a much richer vision of Christ in all things, and and maybe we need to embrace it as that kind of opportunity. What do you reckon about that?
SPEAKER_00Uh it's exciting to me as well uh to hear you unfold that. I agree with you. It's uh there's downsides to the 1950s Billy Graham approach. And one of the opportunities we have right now is to help our friends consider the joy and wonder and enchantment that it is to be a Christian. Uh so in my mind, I'm I'm picturing a uh, you know, let's say there's a 31-year-old young man who is totally secular. Uh their parents don't have any Christian background, or so they've never been to church at all. They've never even thought about praying. Not only have they rejected religion, they've just never even considered whether they would even need to, you know, totally secular. They grow up, and at a certain point in their life, they begin to feel an awing emptiness within. And they begin to just wonder, you know, what is this life for? Maybe they go through a suffering or a difficulty, and it starts to ask deeper questions. And they go out uh into their yard at night before they go to bed, and they look up at the stars, and they listen to the wind rustling through the leaves in the trees. And in their heart, there's a yearning, there's a there's an ache, there's a longing. Um, the moment we're in positions us better to speak to that human heart and just love that person. Uh share with them the the just the most thrilling news imaginable that uh for number one, there is a God, there is an infinite person whose glory has always been. And uh you were made to see him, you were made to behold him. Your life matters for eternity. There's a battle for you to fight. There are good and evil that will transcend uh this natural world. How you spend your life, how you deploy your energies matters infinitely. It will have infinite consequences. The drama of that, the drama of good versus evil is tremendous and and significant. Um sacrifice and redemptive love matter. The resurrection of Christ means there's beauty and there's hope. You know, we get to speak at these deep-seated emotional levels to people and call people into hope. And I I find it I find I I guess I could say, and I I I'm just I feel as though I'm just a sort of a just a novice, just barely starting to peek over the edge and look at this. But I feel this sense of excitement that evangelism has never been more complicated, but uh at least within the recent past. To your point, it's it's often been very complicated. But in the recent history, the last several decades to generation or two, but it's also never been so exciting. So one of the benefits is we we get to do what Paul does in Acts 17, and we really get to start with with the basics, and that I do think that if people are hearing a gospel that is um stated with the power of the Holy Spirit, with cultural sensitivity, etc., I do think they'll experience it like, wow. Um that's like walking through the wardrobe into Narnia. And people are the last thing I'll say on this is I think people are searching for something like that. Unfortunately, there, you know, we talk about the vibe shift and and more people going to church and there's an awake, a sense of spiritual awakening, but a lot of that isn't toward Christianity. There's just it's just a general cultural dynamic. And so I feel a bit of an eagerness to speak to those hearts that aren't asking the question and tell them about Jesus and encourage them not to go. Sometimes people are even going to very dark forms of spirituality to meet that need in their heart. And I think the thrill right now is to really make clear the happiness and wonder of the gospel. And that's just something that I'm personally very interested in learning. How do I better convey that? How do I, how do I get better at helping my friends feel like they're walking through the wardrobe into Narnia when they're considering Jesus?
SPEAKER_01And how do we do that? Let me let me kind of offer one answer that springs to my mind and and and see uh what you what you make of it and what you want to add to it. But but it seems to me like therefore the need for cheerful evangelists and apologists um is huge. And and that from the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks, that we need to be those who are really enjoying Jesus in this moment and and really kind of evidently so, which is not to say we plaster on a grin um when uh the world is a veil of tears, but I think there is a need for a kind of a cheerful, confident, buoyant faith um that that I guess people can smell. You know, people can kind of notice uh where whether somebody is buoyed up with this kind of hope. And we know that they can notice that because actually the great verse on apologetics is 1 Peter 3, verse 15. In your heart set apart Christ the Lord is holy, always being ready to give an answer, an apologia, an apologetic to anyone who asks you for the reason for the hope that you have, but do this with gentleness and respect. And it's it's so interesting that it's the non-Christian who is initiating this encounter. And the reason they are initiating the encounter is because there is an evident hope in the apologist. And they're basically just ask asking, how are you still standing? Given, given the world that we're in, given the year that you've just had, how are you still standing? And somehow the hope that the Christian has had is, I don't know, radiating is is evident in some way, shape, or form in their life. And that's the opening towards an evangelistic uh conversation. Would you agree?
SPEAKER_00Uh, 1000%. And it it it is uh it's a great reminder, it's a great encouragement to think the first thing I need to do is walk closely with Jesus and not succumb to like, for example, to get really practical, I can struggle, as we all do, with getting too pulled into the internet, getting too um uh drawn back to the latest issue that's going on. And so I need to take time for solitude, I need to take time to go out on a walk and just pray and be with Jesus and let his peace be, and so that I'm tackling my day from a sense of peace, calm, joy. I need to meditate on the doctrine of heaven. I need to remember that even when, you know, life can be hard, uh, life can feel dark and bleak. And in those moments, I need to remember heaven. And so I'm approaching, I'm walking through the darkness with a sense of hope as well. And if I'm doing those things, you know, that that might be the best part of my witness. And if I'm not doing them, uh, God forbid, that I'm speaking words that are inconsistent with that. And that, you know, it I I think if we could lament this, that many times Christians are failing this, we are not the non-Christians are not asking us about our hope. And so we're we're speaking to people who are a bit closed off because they've not seen the reality in our lives, and that is very common, it's very evident. So I agree with you a thousand percent. That may be the most important thing for me that I have to always come back to is am I walking am I abiding in Christ day by day? A couple other things I think about right now that just I'll throw on the table in addition to that. One is the reality of spiritual warfare, interest in the demonic. That's a thing. And I think sometimes evangelism right now will look like can we pray for you in the name of Jesus? And many people, we do not need to convince them to believe in the supernatural. We just need to show them the the one who is the light, who is greater than the darkness they are afflicted with. And that's a simple pastoral thing that, you know, sometimes I can over-intellectualize things. Uh a lot of times it's it's going to be a power encounter, not an intellectual transfer. Uh, that that is very common right now in the world. Another thing I've been doing is trying to think about what does it look like to call people into community and to invite people into relationship in our local churches, because loneliness is such a thing, even more than we can sometimes realize. And many people are living a very isolated, fragmented life. And actually, I do think this has happened where the pathway into joy in Christ comes through actually people and this sense of uh, you know, these people loved me, and I've never been known and loved like this. I'd never been in a community where I felt free and safe to be myself. I'd never experienced such kindness, uh, such freedom and openness. Um, that's a that's a tremendous opportunity we can think about uh for for local church life and what does that look like? And I have other thoughts as well. I had something else, but it left me. So let me kick it back to you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So yeah, so the the joy, the evident hope of the evangelists bringing prayer into conversation. I I think that's absolutely fantastic with with evangelism. I I think um whether your friend feels anything in the moment as you pray for them, you are communicating so much as you bring God into a conversation um with that other person. I I think you're right at the epicenter of a spiritual encounter when you're when you're offering to do that. Community. Um, where where does um where does scripture come in? What would you be what would you be encouraging this friend to do in order to dig deeper into is there a meaning after all or not? Yeah, how how are what homework are you gonna set, your friend?
SPEAKER_00Just consider, I mean, the the first step, I think, for some is just to start thinking about the question. I mean, there are times where uh I'm just, you know, when I'm doing like public addresses, I'll often just introduce Pascal and talk about his quote that the greatest problem is that we can't sit quietly in a room and just invite my friends to think about that and say, um, what would happen if we muted all the distractions and attended to the heart? How are we doing? Are we happy? Are we content? What is the state of our heart? And inviting reflection like that on that may be for some people a starting point before we get to scripture. Just get to a point where you're at you're able to ask people, are you thinking about the ultimate questions and the state of your heart in relation to them? But in terms of going deeper than that, I mean, so there are a lot of people who are just wanting to, they're they're ready, they're buying a Bible, they're showing up at church. Um oh boy, what a good starting points. I mean, I I I would tell someone to read the gospels. Uh, I often do this. I'll often buy someone an ESV study Bible and say, start reading the Gospel of John and read a chapter a day or a little um portion of a chapter, a little stor narrative per day each morning, and then I'll encourage them just to do a quiet time like I do, write out a one-sentence prayer in response to what you've read. Um, and then go to church, find a good church that believes in the Bible and believes in the gospel and go and get to know people and talk to people and so forth. Those are starting points. Um, oh, and to take Glenn Scrivener's course. Um, obviously. Just pick up the name of it. It's really helpful though. I mean, honestly, I I love the work that you do, and I think that's a the resources like that are tremendous.
SPEAKER_01At the center of the human story stands a man who doesn't just claim to be one more person from this world. He keeps saying he is our maker and he has come in person. We want to immerse you in another way of seeing and to show you a different vision for God, the world, and you. Without assuming any prior knowledge, we'll be looking specifically at the vision for life that Jesus gives us. The meaning of life is to know the love of this God. This is the beating heart of the Christian story. Do you want in on this? The three invite you in. The two determine the world. Be one with the Son of God. People can go to 321cour.com and you can start an account. And in fact, we've got a a Bible reading plan in John's Gospel that takes you through a chapter a day and it connects you in with the rest of the course. Um, so that's something that people could do. And I I often find that that's good as um as a kind of a backstop for um your evangelism. If you're talking to somebody and it goes really well, a great next step is to say, why don't you do 321course.com? And there's a podcast and there's all sorts of other things that are involved in this video course. Um, but what's good about it as well is if it goes really badly as well, you can text your friend and said, well, that went badly, but you can always do this video course called 321cour.com. It's a great uh backstop that just helps you be a bit more bold. Uh, because whether your in-person evangelism goes well or not, um, there's something to kind of follow up with. Um, what about that last thing that you you mentioned, Gavin, in terms of church? Um, it's it's coming up again and again. Uh, I was just in Australia, and whether I was on the West Coast or the East Coast of Australia, again and again, um, there were people who at the beginning of the conversation, I thought that they were Christians. Halfway through the conversation, I'm starting to think, oh, they're using language of I need to get deeper with my faith. Um, I need to learn how to pray, how do you pray? Um, yeah, I was reading in the Bible, dot, dot, dot. Um, but they they haven't become Christians yet. They're just very interested doing the sorts of things that you're saying, Bible, buying a Bible from Amazon and that sort of thing. Again and again, I'm encountering people saying, I haven't yet gone to church because I don't know which one is the right church. And what I've been thinking recently is that actually answering that question maybe puts us in touch with a lot more of church history than what we've been used to for the past 80 years. I think for the past 80 years, evangelism has not really concerned itself with that question at all. Um and yet denominational distinctives are right at the heart of spiritual conversations right now. You can't really have a gospel conversation now without then thinking about church. And I guess that's a great thing, but then you get down to the thorny issue of, well, which church should our friend uh check out on a Sunday? And let's let's just imagine that we're not in the same city in order to, you know, take them along to our church with them. How would you answer that question?
SPEAKER_00Oh man, this is this has become the a huge focus of my YouTube channel, which I did not expect. And I for a while I was resistant to really deploying my energies on this because I thought, I don't know if that's really where I want to spend so much time. And then as a matter of pastoral service and seeking to just meet the needs in front of me, it became unavoidable to try to I I felt drawn into it more and more. Because if you think about it, uh it's not this is you know, this question is not a distant and theoretical uh one that you answer once you've been walking with Jesus for a long time. It is very front and center. Uh as soon as you're going, you've got to say, okay, if I want to go to church, you know, exactly as you're asking, where do I go? Um, well, I I so I am a Protestant. I I'm an evangelical Protestant. I think there are many good churches in different traditions, but that's the broad space where I would encourage someone to go. And there are resources. I think the Gospel Coalition website, for example, has sort of a map where it can recommend particular churches. So I might even send someone to the TGC website and say, look around, you might find a great church there. It's difficult because um it's it's different from one context to another. I can't just name a couple of denominations and say, you know, just pick one of these and it'll be great because it depends upon the local parish and you know, what is the theology there and so forth. Um, but I think what I would say to someone is as you're growing in your relationship with God, as you're coming to know more about Christ, find a church that is has a high view of scripture, um, that that is willing to resist cultural pressure on the basis of their scriptural convictions, also that is not uh extremely feisty toward other Christians, but has a sense of being one part of the broader body of Christ in the world. Those are two good rubrics that I think are helpful.
SPEAKER_01But they are Catholic in that sense.
SPEAKER_00Yes, exactly. Yeah, broad bread, universal, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that gives you a sense of balance too, because there are churches that might be very willing to resist the culture in points, but they do so in an extremely combative way. And that is another issue here, is just talking about how we help our friends find Christ. I think sometimes people will assume that Christianity, the relationship of Christianity and politics is a huge area right now. And there's different ways we can fall into trouble here. But a lot of people will assume that what we're when we're talking about Jesus and the gospel, it's just right there, interwoven with and linked at the hip with a series of particular political and cultural agendas. And uh that that's a tricky thing that we want to help people think through. That on the one hand, our Christian faith immediately and uh powerfully flows into the whole rest of our life, including our political activities. Our engagement on cultural issues. And yet, um, the relationship with Jesus is not just a means to those things. And so I really want to help. I think this is actually a big need right now, is helping people understand Christianity is not a tool for your politics. It should inform your politics, it should affect your politics. But I actually think that's something we need to say right now.
SPEAKER_01It's something we need to say a lot. We've just made a couple of videos about uh Charlie Kirk's murder, and you know, there it does seem to be something happening in terms of people saying, I'm going to church perhaps for the first time or for perhaps for the first time in 20 years, um, and Charlie Kirk is the reason why I'm showing up. But then we hear other anecdotes of people saying they showed up, and then the name of Charlie Kirk wasn't mentioned in the church, and therefore they've they've kind of left and decided that it's it's not a true church or not the church for them because his name is is not proclaimed there. And I I I know nothing about Charlie Kirk, but I I imagine he would not be that happy um uh if if his name was put above the name that is above every name, which is which is Jesus. But it's it's just one example, I guess, of um the interwovenness of of kind of politics and faith in our moment. But but also it's so tricky in evangelism because there might be more of an opportunity on the right right now than there is on the left. And the sort of evangelism that I've been involved with for the last 20 years has almost exclusively in a UK setting been I go onto university campuses and it's a little bit left-coded because it's a little bit, you know, Jesus is also an environmentalist or Jesus is also a feminist and all those sorts of things. And I very happily, you know, come and speak to those kinds of issues and want to bring a truth from above that is neither left nor right, but that, you know. Nevertheless, I think the framing and the perceived opportunities in in my ministry have tended to be towards the left politically. And I don't know whether it's just the algorithm or whether it is in reality, but it does seem like there are more kinds of opportunities on the right. Not exclusively at all. I could point to any number of left-wing figures who are who are coming to Christ as well. But how do we how do we navigate that if the sort of person is is coming to church and they're coming, they're coming to church because we need Judeo-Christian values. And if civilization was built on Judeo-Christian values, then I guess I better buy a suit and show up in church because it's um it's the kind of the it's the conservative thing to do. Uh how should we react to to those people you know showing up in our churches and and how do we take the first steps with them?
SPEAKER_00It is such a fascinating moment, just as you're saying, that the the opportunities, the rise of more secular people on the right, the whole secular right thing is a is a bigger thing now. And then the opportunities for evangelism in these contexts, it really is. 2025 is really a unique and different time. And I think about this a great deal. I mean, what ultimately what I want to do is to help someone uh come to terms with their own personal need for Christ at an individual level. And so that will mean if you are coming to Christianity because you uh are afraid of wokeness and afraid of leftism, or you're against it and you want a tool, you know, that you're thinking at a societal level and you're thinking oppositionally, I don't want to immediately combat everything that is being thought. I want to start just at a personal standpoint and say, um, and I want, and I do think, and this is where, as controversial as third wayism is, I think there, and and as poorly and clumsily as it can be done, I do think, I feel very strongly about this. I think this is very important to understand that the the good versus evil battle is not the right is good and the left is bad. That is not that is too simple. The good versus evil battle is through the human heart, every human heart. And um, so that and and recognizing that means then, okay, my ultimate enemy, my ultimate enemy is not one side versus the other. My ultimate problem is my own sin. And uh, and then once, and the Christ has provided provision for for that need, once I have personally received that, now I want to be an actor for good in the world. And that will include opposing evils, many of which are coming from the secular left. So I'm not, you know, yes, an amen to that, to the extent that that is the case, but that I'm also going to be keeping a critical eye open to evils in other contexts, not only in my own heart, but in my own tribe. And I feel very strongly about this because I think there can be a political idolatry and a focus on, even as much as I'm concerned about not overreacting against that too strongly, but I think this is a dynamic. I think we need to speak, we need to make sure that basically the the gospel message itself has been understood and personally received, because we're not going to renew civilization at a societal level apart from that. And a great biblical example of this is Nicodemus, who had great values, uh, was a Pharisee, you know, and yet Jesus said, You have to be born again, which is remarkable to say to some to this leader in the in the religious culture to say you've got to start over and you need life from God, and you cannot earn it on your own, and you're you're in a position of total need. He doesn't say, Jesus doesn't say you have to go back to school or you have to, you know, go back five years. He says you have to be born again, and that is the need of every human heart. And I'm I never want to, I never want to assume that. I never want to skirt around that. And in evangelism, in right-coded contexts, I think we in every conversation must start, you know, from that personal standpoint. I don't know. How do you how do you think about all that?
SPEAKER_01I wonder, is are we sort of in a mirror image moment to sort of 1968? And did did your dad come to Christ in about 68, 69, 70, that that kind of time at Wheaton?
SPEAKER_00He he he was a believer before, but he he experienced a lot of the sort of tumult in the culture and the spiritual awakenings of that time.
SPEAKER_01Right. And and you know, in in that time, alongside a whole bunch of other hippies are coming to church, um, very much left-coated, um, coming into church. And, you know, Jesus Revolution, the the movie is kind of made all about that kind of moment. Are we are we in any sense in a kind of a mirror image moment in which there are people coming into church um from particular tribes, and it'll kind of be a mess as we figure out how to how to disciple them, but but is is there a way of um is there a way of opening doors to uh those with whom we wouldn't ordinarily um do and and yet um the the church itself is able to have a kind of a Simon the Zealot alongside Matthew the tax collector, just you know, just as Jesus is able to have within his movement people from very different political spheres. Um is I don't know, is this is this a mirror image to the to the Jesus Revolution? I don't know.
SPEAKER_00It feels like there are similar dynamics in terms of the cultural tumult and the political instability or seeming instability, and then the religious opportunity. And uh that's what I I know you and I both are keen to pray for, new conversions and revival and the church being strengthened and people coming to Christ. And that is what I want to give my life to. I want to pray for a third great awakening. I'm excited to think that in the 21st century perhaps we will see something new that God will do. Uh, I think we have opportunity. I think it's time to roll up our sleeves and work hard and lean in and pray. And I feel joy and excitement thinking about the opportunities we have. And one thing I think about a great deal is exactly what you're saying of trying to be open hearted. Revival is very messy. And therefore, I want to be open-hearted to any person in front of me. And I think this is something I've been learning about, reflecting upon over the last few years, and I suspect many in our in our tribe of Christendom might want to think about a great deal. And that is as we distinguish ourselves from those who I think from our vantage point are are just kind of more culturally interested in Christianity. Can we keep an open heart to them at the same time? And, you know, really be open hearted to people to my right and to my left, and have a loving heart to those. I I think the the culture war issues, even inside the church, have been so nasty over the last few years that I think it's easy for us to become jaded or or uh tired of people. And I think it'd be great for us to say how what might a fresh start look like? How do we keep an open heart to people with who might be have been in a position where we've been sort of feuding back and forth, but maybe we need to uh have a year of Jubilee where we offer forgiveness and start over the conversations and and try to make progress. And I I I, you know, to your point, you know, non-Christians asking us about our hope. I I'm hoping they're also going to be asking us about our reconciliation. I'm hoping they're also gonna be looking at Christians and saying, wow, you know, even where they disagree, they don't hate one another. That's interesting. That's different. I'm I'm I'm thinking that's a key piece of revival is a sense of open-heartedness, reconciliation. And and so that's really important to me. And I just wonder what what does that look like right now?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, the great theological virtues, faith, hope, and love. And as we try and proclaim the faith out there, um, yeah, we've already mentioned we must have an evident hope. Um, and we must have an evident love. And without those two things, I don't think we'll get very far in proclaiming the faith. Um, well, this book is called The Gospel After Christendom, and Gavin has written a chapter, and there are all sorts of other chapters by wonderful people like Rebecca McLaughlin and Chris Watkin and Grace Satanto and Joshua Chitraw and Trevan Wax, and I'm gonna forget lots of other people. Colin Hansen is uh opening up the batting order of the book, and uh you can go out and get it. I think pretty soon. Is it out now, Gavin?
SPEAKER_00I think it's just uh just coming out. I I can't recall if it came out a few days ago or a few days from now, but right around this time, so it should be available. As people are watching this, I I bet they will find it available now.
SPEAKER_01Brilliant. And how can people keep up with you, Gavin?
SPEAKER_00Oh boy, uh my YouTube channel is probably the main point. There's also a website called truthunites.org. Uh, so yeah, it won't shouldn't be too hard to find. Uh people can be aware. I'm writing a book right now called Why Christianity Makes Sense. They can pray for me as I write that. I'm really excited about that. Uh, but I just want to say how much I appreciate your work, Glenn. Uh, I'm always watching your videos and thinking, why didn't I think of saying it that I think, oh man, I need to I need to watch Glenn's videos before I watch my own so that I could uh have a little extra wisdom. But keep up the great work.
SPEAKER_01Oh, thank you. And and the feeling is very much mutual. Uh yeah, in terms of having a backstop behind when your evangelism goes bad, uh, to be able to say, just go onto Truth Unites, you'll get the good stuff there at Truth Unites. That's what I'm always saying to people. Gavin Ortland, thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Glen.