Hello and welcome back to the Speak Life Podcast, episode 621. My name is Thomas Thoroughgood, media producer at Speak Life, and thanks to all of you who came either in person or on the livestream for responding to the rebirth, our conference that we did in partnership with ThinkFaith on Saturday. The conference went really well. It was an amazing atmosphere. It was lovely to meet some followers of the Speak Life podcast in person. There'll be plenty more content coming out related to the conference, so stay tuned both on the Speak Life channel but also on the ThinkFaith channels, Justin Brierly's podcast, The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God. So what's coming up in today's episode? Well, on Tuesday, Glenn was giving a talk at University College London for the Christian Union titled Jordan Peterson Prophet or Poison, a very uncontroversial topic among a university campus, as you can imagine. And in fact, uh some of the posters advertising the event had been graffitied in some interesting ways. So you're going to hear about all of that. You're going to hear Glenn's talk, Jordan Peterson, Prophet or Poison. What are Christians to make of Jordan Peterson? And that's followed by a QA. Students were able to enter their questions via Slido, and those were read out, and Glenn interacts with them. I'm now just explaining how a QA works, which you already know, so I'll stop talking. So yeah, massive thank you to UCL for hosting this event and allowing us to share the recording on our channel. You're gonna hear a short preview for what's coming up, and then we'll be straight in with Glenn's talk. Enjoy.
SPEAKER_04Here is the moment where Kathy Newman, the journalist, asked Jordan Peterson Why should your right to freedom of speech trump a trans person's right not to be offended?
SPEAKER_03You're exercising your freedom of speech to certainly risk offending me. And that's fine. I think more power to you, as far as I'm concerned.
SPEAKER_01Ha, gotcha. You have got me. And notice what's going on there. It's freedom of speech. He says it's the fundamental freedom of Western civilization. Where did we get that idea from? And here's where things intersect with Christianity.
SPEAKER_03The more you investigate the manifestations of the story of Christ, the more insanely complicated and far-reaching it becomes.
SPEAKER_01So if I had five minutes with Jordan Peterson, I think I'd take him to Luke chapter 15, and I'd say a lot of your diagnosis is spot on. But the solution is not 12 rules for life, and it's not 12 more rules for life. The solution really is Jesus given for you. Thank you for inviting me. On this very neutral topic that does not stir any controversy at all, did you see this poster? So Prophet or Poison has turned into poo, poo, or poo-poo.
SPEAKER_02The next question is, isn't Jordan Pearson oppressive? Why would Christians affirm that? Hi Glenn, nice to meet you. Yeah, you too. Yeah. Why don't you introduce yourself to us, who you are, and what you do?
SPEAKER_01Great. I am Glenn. I am Emma's husband. I'm Ruby and JJ's dad. I'm from Australia originally, but my wife She's from Belfast. I met her at university, and now we live on the south coast of England. So she's from Belfast, I'm from Australia. And she thinks that the south coast of England is halfway. And uh I let her think that. And that's the secret of compromise, isn't it? Secret to a good marriage. So uh I live there with um my son is JJ, my daughter is Ruby, and I'm a Church of England minister, and but my day job is to go around and talk about Jesus.
SPEAKER_02Thank you very much. So without further ado, I'll hand over to you.
SPEAKER_01Brilliant. Uh thank you for inviting me on this very neutral topic that does not stir any controversy at all. Did you see this poster? Oh my goodness. I didn't think UCL students were particularly creative, but this is very creative. Okay, so Prophet or Poison has turned into poo poo or poo-poo. So I'm not sure whether this particular graffiti artists, uh, where they sit on the whole Jordan Peterson question, um, instead of what do Christians think of Jordan Peterson's, it's what do do Christians think of Jordan Peepy's son. So I think that's perfect. If that's you, I I must talk with you afterwards. This is this is sensational. And does anybody mind if I if I frame this at home? Because I think this is absolutely wonderful. Um so I guess he's a divisive figure, we should say. Jordan Piersen. Um I never know what to think about Jordan Piersen. I've been sort of following his rise and fall and rise again and fall again um since 2016. He often says things that intersect with what Christians uh believe in. I'm never sure what to make of his own faith commitments, and he himself is never sure what to make of his own faith commitments. He doesn't like being asked, do you believe in God? Um famously, if anyone puts him on the spot, he kind of you know wiggles off the skewer that somebody is trying to sort of drive through him. I find it an off-putting question. When somebody says, Are you a Christian? he's not quite sure how to answer that. And so I just want to respect how Jordan Peterson identifies. If he doesn't want to identify as a Christian, I don't need to claim him for Team Jesus. I don't think Christians need to be needy like that. But I do notice, as somebody who goes around the place talking about Jesus, that a lot of people show up in church because of Jordan Peterson. And I think there is a pipeline from Jordan Peterson towards Christian things. And perhaps some of you in this room are part of that pipeline. And uh it's not always the people that you expect who are massive Jordan Peterson fans. Probably in my church in Eastbourne, the biggest fan of Jordan Peterson is a black single mother in her 30s. Um, she she loves Jordan Peterson and will talk to me at length about who he is. Other people have shown up in my church because of the content around him, and that's led them to other more Christian content and other more Christian content, and they've wound up in church. So, what does a Christian like me think about that? Uh well, let's just catch you up on the Jordan Peterson story. Uh, 2016 really is where he came to prominence in Canada. He uh was a professor of clinical psychology at University of Toronto, and uh in the Toronto, in the uh in the Canadian Parliament, they wanted to bring a um a bill called Bill C16 that was going to add gender identity and expression to the Canadian Human Rights Act. And Jordan Peterson was having none of it, and he did not want his speech to be compelled. That's the way he took the legislation that he would say, for the first time in the British common law uh tradition, speech was going to be compelled, and people were going to uh they were going to enforce what it was that uh you are able to say.
SPEAKER_03And so he he said things like Freedom of speech is freedom to engage in the processes that we use to formulate the problems in our society, to generate solutions to them and reach a consensus. It's actually a mechanism, it's not just another value. And you should put constraints on free speech with the most extreme caution because you interfere with people's ability to think and communicate. Well, I think that the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal is probably obligated by their own tangled web to bring me in front of it. If they find me, I won't pay it. If they put me in jail, I'll go on a hunger strike. I'm not doing this. That's that. I'm not using the words that other people require me to use, especially if they're made up by radical left-wing ideologues.
SPEAKER_01And so his star was on the rise, actually, as he pushed back against what he saw are as and what he named as woke ideology. Now, I don't like calling things what those proponents wouldn't themselves call things, but Jordan Peterson was comfortable saying that progressive liberationism he called it wokery, and uh he wanted to push back against that. He went on to uh Kathy Newman, and perhaps in this country, uh, Channel 4 News did an interview with Jordan Peterson in 2017. And can we just watch one minute of the most famous part of this video? It's had 51 million views on YouTube, and uh here is the moment where Kathy Newman, the journalist, asked Jordan Peterson, don't why do your rights to free speech trump a trans person's right not to be offended? And then this happened.
SPEAKER_04Why should your right to freedom of speech trump a trans person's right not to be offended?
SPEAKER_03Because in order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive. I mean, look at the conversation we're having right now. You know, like you're certainly willing to risk offending me in the pursuit of truth. Why should you have the right to do that? It's been rather uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_04Well, I'm I'm very glad I put you on the spot.
SPEAKER_03Well, I've been doing it. But you get my point. You get my point. It's like you're you're doing what you should do, which is digging a bit to see what the hell's going on. And that is what you should do. But you're exercising your freedom of speech to certainly risk offending me. And that's fine. I think more power to you as far as I'm concerned.
SPEAKER_04So you haven't sat there and I'm just trying to I'm just trying to work that out.
SPEAKER_03I mean Ha, gotcha.
SPEAKER_04You have got me. You have got me. I'm trying to work that through my head. Yeah, yeah. It took a while, it took a while. It did, it did, yeah. Took a while.
SPEAKER_01That moment absolutely went viral and catapulted uh Jordan Peterson to uh ever greater heights of notoriety. And notice what's going on there. It's freedom of speech, which is incredibly important for Jordan Peterson. He says, unless I can speak, I don't even know what I think, and you don't know what you think, and we cannot have a civilization unless we have that fundamental freedom. He said it's he says it's the fundamental freedom of Western civilization. Where did we get that idea from? And here's where things intersect with Christianity. He said that the Bible is, for better or worse, the foundational document of Western civilization. Its careful, respectful study can reveal things to us about what we believe and how we do and should act that can be discovered in almost no other manner. And he looks back to the history of Western civilization and he sees the Bible at its roots. And he says it is a tradition that is profoundly Judeo-Christian and in our part of the Anglosphere, Protestant, that has led to certain free speech uh ideologies, uh, ideologies that Jordan Peterson finds very precious. And so for him, he kind of returns to the Bible. And in 2017, he started doing a whole bunch of very popular, surprisingly popular uh lectures about Genesis. He, as a psychologist, would bring a Jungian kind of psychological interpretation to the scriptures, and people would flock to it in person and millions would watch online, and so began the Jordan Peterson pipeline from Peterson to the Bible to other Christian content to church. And now people show up in church, and some of them have come via that Jordan Peterson kind of route. What do Christians think about that? Well, I always think about a story that Jesus told. It's probably the most famous story that Jesus told, and I think it intersects with all the issues that Jordan Peterson flags for us. Uh, it's found in Luke's gospel. We've got copies of Luke's Gospel here, which are yours. If you don't own a Bible, if you don't have a Bible back in your room, this can be yours. Um why don't you turn to Luke chapter 15? Uh, it's found on page 42 of these. And I want to tell you a story that I think resonates with a lot of what Jordan Peterson says has happened to our civilization. And then I want to give uh some words of critique to Jordan Peterson. I think some words of affirmation uh about Jordan uh Peterson and what he has identified, but then the answer I think that Jesus gives to the questions that Peterson raises is different. Let's have a look. So you'll see uh big number 15 means it's chapter 15. The heading says the parable of the lost sheep, and here's the context for the most famous short story ever told. Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus, but the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, This man welcomes sinners and eats with them. So Jesus has two kinds of audience, and one are more like the rule breakers. Okay, the tax collectors and sinners, tax collectors were collaborators with the Roman army. They were not popular among their fellow Jews. They were taking far too much money from their fellow Jews and giving it to the hated Romans. So these guys are breaking the rules, and the sinners are just the people, they're transgressive and they don't care who knows it, right? So there are the lawbreakers on one side of Jesus, and then there are the lawmakers on the other side of Jesus, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law. Pharisees is literally a the word Pharisee means one who keeps himself separate. So they would be a blast at a party, don't you think? One who keeps himself separate, okay? So the the holier than thou types, okay? So these are the rule makers. And isn't it interesting that culture is filled with that kind of divide, right? The divide that so many of us live with is a divide of temperament. Jordan Peterson, as a clinical psychologist, notices that actually your political preferences are much less to do with your philosophical political ideology. It's actually a lot to do with your temperament, your psychological temperament. And if you're high in openness, you're probably more left-leaning, right? And if if you're more industrious, you're probably more right-leaning. That that's that just is a thing. It's demonstrable. And as much as you say, no, I've come to my political ideology because I've thought through the matter and I'm just philosophically consistent, Peterson was like, would be, would be saying to us, you probably don't know yourself as well as you think you do. And it's interesting that long before there was ever an a concept of left or right, which is kind of a terminology that's only as old as the French Revolution, long before that, there have always been rule breakers and rule makers. There have always been people who are more into experience, more into throwing off the shackles and getting free. And there have always been more people who are into respect and community and integrity and taking pride in your work and that sort of thing, right? There have always been those sorts of people. And Jesus is surrounded by exactly those kinds of people. He tells a number of stories about this different temperamental divide in human nature. And we're going to focus in on the most famous of the three stories. It begins in verse 11, halfway down page 42. It's the parable of the lost son. Jesus continued. He says, There was a man who had two sons. The younger one said to his father, Father, give me my share of the estate. So he divided his property between them. Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had and set off for a distant country, and there squandered his wealth in wild living. After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything. When he came to his senses, he said, How many of my father's hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death? I will set out and go back to my father and say to him, Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants. So he got up and went to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him. He ran to his son, threw his arms around him, and kissed him. The son said to him, Father, I've sinned against heaven and against you. I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. But the father said to his servants, Quick, bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate, for this son of mine was dead and is alive again. He was lost and is found. So they began to celebrate. Meanwhile, the elder son was in the field. When he came near the house he heard music and dancing. So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. Your brother has come, he replied, and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound. The elder brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. But he answered his father, Look, all these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders, yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him. My son, the father said, You are always with me. And everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again. He was lost and is found. It's an absolute dynamite story. Because Jesus comes to a humanity that is riven. There is this split between the rule breakers and the rule makers. There is this temperamental divide between those who find themselves by throwing off the shackles and getting experience, and those who buy into the structure and climb the ladder. And Jesus says it's not really about being a rule breaker or a rule maker. There is actually a third way to be a human being. It's not about being a sinner, transgressive. And it's not about being a what would we say? A slave, right? A rule maker. It's actually about being a son or a daughter. It's about being a child in a family. And that's an entirely different way of finding your identity. Not in your experiences and not in your performances. But actually, in Christ, you can be welcomed home to a family love that's quite different. Your identity is now not dependent on rule breaking, and it's not dependent on rule making. It's actually dependent on knowing your father. And this story, I think, explains something of what happens in a civilization if we go all in on the younger brother. Jordan Peterson, I think, would say the West, certainly the post-war West, has become a decadent kind of younger brother. That has forgotten its homestead, it has forgotten its origins in biblical Christianity, and has sort of hit the experience button again and again and again. More freedom, more freedom, more freedom, more freedom. And what do you notice about this kid in the story? The younger brother says that I want your inheritance, but I want to take that inheritance so that I can get as far away from you as I possibly can. Okay? It's a terrible thing to do to your father. And it would have been utterly shocking in a first-century patriarchal society. People would have expected that father to hold a funeral for his runaway son. So much would they expect the father to shun, exclude, and and and otherwise forget this young rebel. But modern society, I think Jordan Peterson would say, and I think there's some truth to this, modern society thinks we will forever be finding ourselves more and more if we can only be free. And if you do like an AI image search or an AI image generation for freedom, what's fascinating is the sort of images you get back are images of somebody by themselves, right, on their own on top of a mountaintop at sunset, just kind of with no one around them to bother them. They're free. But they're also lonely, right? And there they are, as this individual who has maximized hedonic pleasure, right? And what happens to this kid in the story? Well, the money runs out. The money always runs out. And he goes for freedom and he ends up lost. I always think that when I come to university. I remember my first day at university, my mother helped me unpack uh the car into my student digs. And as we were unpacking the final box, she was sort of turning to leave and sort of drive away and leave me towards my le leave me at my university experience. And she said, you know, Glenn, just just fly, Glenn, just fly. And uh I I think because sarcasm is my love language, I said, yes, but only because you're the wind beneath my wings, mother. Which was a terrible thing for me to have said. But you kind of get the un uh the idea of what my mother was getting at. You you sort of get the sense, don't you? At university, you're sort of you're there to fly, you're there to get experience, right? But Then I remember my first week at university, I was incredibly lost, right? I mean, physically, I was lost. I didn't know where the lecture theater was, I didn't know where the library was. Three years later, I was not much the wiser. But, you know, not just geographically lost, I was also spiritually lost, emotionally lost. And then the great wisdom is you gotta find yourself. Which is terrible advice, isn't it? If you're lost, finding yourself is the last person you need to find, because you're lost, right? And finding a lost person is never much help. If you find a lost person, then they will just say, I'm lost too. And if you find yourself and you're lost, that's no great find. You've just found that you're lost. When you're lost, you don't need to find yourself, you need to find home, don't you? And the good news of this story is that there is a home that wants to include you. Not as a sinner or as a slave, not as a rule breaker or a rule maker, but simply as a son or a daughter. To come home to a father's love. And don't you just love the way that the father reconciles this son? And doesn't allow this son to become a hired servant. Did you notice that? He was he was going to make a job application to his dad. He's practicing his sorry speech. He says, How many of my father's hired servants have food to spare? Here I am starving to death. I will set out and go back to my father and say to him, Father, I've sinned against heaven and against you. I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants. He has gone for freedom. He has ended up in chaos, to use a Jordan Peterson term. And now he wants some order. There's another Jordan Peterson phrase. He's found himself in chaos and he wants to rebalance that chaos with order. He wants to stop being a rule breaker and start being a rule maker, do you see? He wants to stop being a sinner and start being a slave. Right? That's his plan. And unfortunately, I think that's so much of Jordan Peterson's plan as well. He identifies something that is absolutely true. Have we in the West kept on hitting the experience button, the freedom button, the hedonic pleasure button again and again and again and again until we end up in the far country and then in a pig style and we're in a mess and we're flat on our backs and it's chaos. Is he right about that? I think he is largely right about that. What's the solution? Is the solution to stop being younger brother-ish and start being elder brother-ish? Unfortunately, I think that's where Peterson goes wrong as regards Christianity. Because did you notice the father, he doesn't let him become a slave? Notice in verse 21, the son said to his father, Father, I've sinned against heaven, and against you I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. He was going to say, make me like one of your hired men. Do you remember that was the that was the speech? Make me like one of your hired men. The father does not want a slave, he doesn't want a servant. He just says, quick, bring the best robe, put it on him. And he is reconciled, sinner though he is, stinking of pig though he is, he is robed in his father's robe. And he's welcomed to the heart of the family. The solution to chaos is not really order. The solution to chaos is adoption back into the heart of the family. But then, once you're at the heart of the family, once you have that identity of being loved even in your own wretchedness, I want us to imagine the next day after this feast. I want us to imagine this young son wakes up in his old bedroom and he's got the football posters on the wall and he's, you know. And he's still stinking of pig. But he's got his father's robe around him. And he pads into the kitchen where his dad's making eggs for breakfast. And he says to his dad, Once again, Dad, I'm just so sorry, I'm so sorry. And just imagine the father saying, It's alright. It's done, it's covered. And then he says to his son, What do you want to do today? I imagine the younger son says, I don't know, Dad, what should we do today? And I can imagine that next day they work at the homestead, they work in the in the farm harder than the elder brother ever worked. But it's on the basis of adoption. It's on the basis of grace of love. And then the following day, I reckon twelve rules for life would really help him. And twelve more rules for life might help him. But rules for life don't get you into a family. There are only two ways into a family. You're either born into a family or you're adopted into a family. In neither case is it about your performance. It can't be about your performance. You don't perform your way into a family. You don't audition for a family. If you're in a family, it's because of the prior love that has been set on you. Not because you're worthy, but because, well, they're your parents and they love you like that. That's how it is with God, says Jesus. He comes as the man who welcomes sinners and eats with them. And he doesn't just put a robe onto filthy sinners like this guy. At the end of Luke's gospel, Jesus will be stripped naked and die in the darkness, so that he can invite us in to the feast. That's how much he really wants us home. Not as slaves, but as sons and daughters. So if I had five minutes with Jordan Peterson, I think I'd take him to Luke chapter 15. And I'd say, a lot of your diagnosis is spot on. But the solution is not twelve rules for life, and it's not twelve more rules for life. The solution really is Jesus given for you, adopting you into a family love. And from there, you can really serve. From there, you can really find order in your life. But it doesn't come from tidying up your room and shouldering burdens. There was one called Jesus. He shouldered the burden for you. When you begin again with him, then life makes sense. That'll do from me, but I reckon you've probably got some questions about that. So, what are we gonna do?
SPEAKER_02So please do continue to put questions up on Slido and upvote them. So the first question, thanks Glenn. For the non-Christians, please could you explain the metaphors you use about being part of the family as a solution to radical right or left?
SPEAKER_01Great question. Um so I talked about our natural ta temperaments sort of dividing between sinner and slave, between rule breaker and rule maker, and that Jesus is a third kind of human being, right? One who doesn't find his identity either in freedom and experience or in uh performance, right? That instead he is a son, not a sinner, not a slave, but a son, the son. So according to the Bible, Jesus was there before the world began, right? Jesus did not just invent a religion, he invented the universe, according to the Bible, that he was there with his father and the Holy Spirit from before the world began. The Bible says we began from love, because we began from a father, son, and spirit united in love. Jesus came at that first Christmas as one of us, and he became our brother, but at that point it was God the Son becoming God our brother to pioneer this new way of being a human being, neither a slave nor uh a sinner, but to be a son or a daughter. And as he comes to live our life and die our death and rise up again, he basically says to us, be one with me. And if we are one with Jesus, then all of a sudden we get his father as our father, and we get his spirit as our spirit, and we get his brothers and sisters in the church as our brothers and sisters in the church, and we get his future as our future, all of it in Christ. So that that's a lot of kind of Christian jargon. You can go to 321course.com. Uh, I just w I just ran through uh a Christian understanding of reality, the threeness of God, and the two-ness of the world and the oneness of you. You can go to 321cour.com and get that taken in stages. But what it means for this left or right thing is that Jesus is pioneering a different way to be a human being that is never going to fit into the political taxonomy of the day, right? It's it's never going to comfortably fit within left or right. Liberal, progressive, or conservative, reactionary, or whatever it is. Um in the first century, for instance, um the early church, as they followed Jesus, were radically multi-ethnic in ways that really um alarmed the Greco-Roman world and smashed through uh all kinds of hierarchy and authority structures in in ways that um really did alarm the traditional mindset. And so what do you call that? Because that's that seems to our ears to be kind of, is that left-wing, progressive, liberal? Is that what that is? At the same time, the early church was pioneering a marriage and family program that we would look at and think, oh gosh, no, no, that's traditional conservative family values. Um in the first century, nobody thought of the Jesus sexual ethic as anything like traditional family values. They thought it was radical, but it was it was a radical concept of marriage is just one man and one woman for life, and that is the only context for sexual relations. What does that sound? Does that sound left-wing or right wing? Right? That sounds radically right wing. So, like, where does the early church fit into a into a political taxonomy? It doesn't, and it's not meant to. And I think with Luke 15 in hand, I think we can see that whatever package deals that the world is offering you and saying if you believe this about X, you must believe this package deal because you're you're with us on this side of the political divide. And then somebody else says, Oh, but you believe that, so you must believe what we all believe in this package deal on this side of the aisle. And the world is constantly trying to like form you and split you and polarize you, and social media is definitely trying to silo you into different compartments. And the gospel of Jesus Christ is a resistance to that. And it's saying, don't look left or right, look above. And and Jesus might sound like he conforms to certain left-wing ideals, and he might sound like he conforms to certain right-wing ideals, but do not buy into the package deals of the year of our Lord 2025, because that that is not going, that isn't that is not going to express the fullness of the politics of Jesus. And so I I think it gives us a vantage point from which to critique left and right and conservative and progressive and all that kind of stuff. Um, and it will mean that sometimes we'll sound very left-leaning, sometimes we'll sound very right-leaning, but we don't find our identity in being one side or the other. We listen to a voice from above.
SPEAKER_02Thank you very much. The next question: what is freedom? Is it just full autonomy?
SPEAKER_01Full autonomy cannot work, right? Full autonomy makes you into an atomized individual, this sphere of absolute sovereignty over which somebody else's claims must never transgress, right? Um, that kind of 19th-century kind of notion of of um of liberalism only leads to ever greater individualism and atomization. And it conceives of each one of us as this, like, we're just these billiard balls that can that clack together and we are just these sovereign spheres of autonomy. Um that that's really not how human beings tick. You didn't come into the world as a sovereign sphere of autonomy. You came into the world dependent, radically dependent. You came into this world um enfolded in bonds of love and mutual obligation and responsibility and utter dependence and reliance. And if people don't transgress your boundaries and bring you things from outside yourself, you die immediately. The human condition is one of radical dependence, not one of radical autonomy. Okay. And therefore, so what does freedom mean in that sense? Freedom in that sense means belonging to the right kinds of mutual obligation, belonging in the home in which you truly fit, belonging in the place where your desires are actually the healthy desires that help you to flourish. Not every desire you have will help you to flourish. And somebody helping you to go hard on the desires that you have will not always be for your benefit. If you're a drug addict and you're sweating and you go to your friend and you say, just give me a tenor, I just need a tenor right now, right? Um liberating your friend by giving him what he wants in that moment? And I think we would all, we would all identify that in that moment, um, simply giving people what they want is not to liberate them. Isaiah Berlin, political um philosopher, said, we're very good in the West, because we've kind of followed the prodigal son route, right? We're very good in the West of thinking about freedom in terms of freedom from, and we're terrible at freedom for. We're very good at considering freedom as getting rid of all bonds of obligation and being able to pursue autonomy, and it's made us lost. Um, what we truly need is to belong within the bonds of mutual obligation that lead to our flourishing. So that this younger son. When was he most free? Was he most free when he was leaving the homestead behind and going to the far country? Was he most free during the party? Was he most free in the pig sty? I think that that younger son was most free when he was in the arms of his father. Which is the most restricted position for him to be in. Still stinking of pig, but wrapped in love. Okay? And in one sense, he has never been more restricted, because he's in the arms of his father. In another sense, he's never been more free. And if you don't know what I mean by finding freedom in the relationship that you are meant for, um keep tugging at that thread. Keep asking, seeking, and knocking from God's love up above, because I I think then you will discover freedom, not in independence, but in the right kind of dependence.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. The next question is Peterson expects his idea to transform and remake the West. Are you expecting the same from Christianity? Is it a sort of Christian Christian nationalism?
SPEAKER_01Okay, yeah, that's that's a very topical question, Christian nationalism. Um I think what Peterson is trying to do is not so much say, let's remake the West. Well, let me not speak for what Peterson's trying to say. Um I I don't think what we're trying to do is is politically remake the West in a Christian image. I think at his best, what Peterson is doing is noticing that Christianity has already formed us in some very fruitful ways. Um and so in 2021, uh he he talked about um what was leading him further towards Christian faith, and it was actually about noticing the ways in which the Christian story has already formed us.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Ross Powell Well, I've got the choice between believing two impossible things. I can either believe that in the world is constituted so that God took on flesh and was crucified and died and rose three days later, or I can believe that human beings invented this unbelievably preposterous story that stretched into every atom of culture. And uh it isn't obvious to me that the second hypothesis is any easier to believe than the first, because the more you investigate the manifestations of the story of Christ, the more insanely complicated and far-reaching it becomes.
SPEAKER_01What he's saying there is that Christianity, the story of Christ coming, living, dying, and rising again, has already shaped your world far more than you know. And perhaps attending to that story again might bring about some level of sanity. I get off the Peterson train whenever it becomes too political, um, but I'm happy for him to notice the fact that you guys are at a university, which is uh a gift of medieval Christendom to the world. And there are many such gifts of medieval Christendom to the world, concepts like parliaments, concepts like human rights, the modern scientific method, the abolition of slavery, the abolition of pederasty, the abolition of child sexual abuse, the abolition of the gladiatorial games, the the the establishment of charity the way we think of charity, the establishment of hospitals the way we think of hospitals, the establishment of orphan care, the way we think of orphan care and adoption and those sorts of things. Um your world has been shaped by the Jesus Revolution so thoroughly you don't even notice it. You just think all those things I rattled off are obvious, natural, and universal. None of those things were obvious and natural and universal when the Christian Revolution pioneered these things. So is this about trying to in the future make the West Christian? Um I I have no interest in that. What I have an interest in is uncovering the Christian roots that are already there. And I think if you if you trace some of the fruits of the Jesus Revolution back to their source, I think you'll find roots in the Jesus Revolution. And that Jesus Revolution is not best carried on in Westminster or in Washington, D.C. That Jesus Revolution is meant to be carried on in the kind of the local church where brothers and sisters meet together and break bread together and love one another across divides. I think as we engage in that kind of revolutionary activity, then I think that will be for the good of society. But that's that's what I'm after. I'm I'm after a grassroots movement of people who love Jesus and are transformed by Jesus. I'm not that interested in any political movement.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. The next question is some Christians claim we must be a certain way to be accepted. If these are the rules to be part of this family, are we not becoming slaves to them?
SPEAKER_01Right, yeah, yeah. We must be a certain way to be accepted. And I think I think Christianity at its best says, come as you are. However you are, however you are oriented in the world, whatever your past, however far you've run, however stinking of pig you might be, thinking of the story, right? Just come home, just join the joy. And you'll notice that that father ran to that son before that son said a word. Before that son ever said, Dad, I'm so sorry, and here's the plan by which I'm going to repay you. Before that son said anything like that to the father, he's hitching up his robes, he's dashing down the front drive, he's wrapping him in love and smothering him in kisses before he's heard a word from that boy. So the reconciling is the the reconciling love for you is there, no matter where you've gone, what you've done, what your politics are, what you whatever ideologies you've had, whatever you know, however you are in this world, you are welcomed as you are, but as that son enjoys day number two back in the house, in the homestead, there's going to be a pattern of life in that homestead, isn't there? That son has not been reconciled into the father's love in order for him to live his individual atomized life again, is he? He's been reconciled back into the father's love in order to bear the family likeness and to enjoy the family likeness. Now there are lots of different ways of being a member of this family. Um it's very flexible. Just as if you want to come and have a Scrivener family Christmas, okay? That's that's fantastic. You can bring whatever tradition that you have from your family Christmas, and we we we might do something the same way that you do something. And if you like a certain food for family Christmas when you come to our house, great, we'll try and incorporate that. But at some stage, you're you're going to deviate from the Scrivener family Christmas so much that it would be not worth us having a family Christmas. Like if you just stayed in your room on your iPad just watching YouTube or throughout Christmas, that's not a family Christmas, right? And so what Christians say as you come to Jesus is you just come as you are, but none of us stay that way. None of us remain with the same sin and the same selfishness. We can't live our independent lives anymore if we're going to enjoy the family love. And so that there are certain things. And everybody as they come to Christ must give up different things in order to make the family work, because that's how families work. And if you want to have a family Christmas with the Spriveners, you can bring all sorts of peculiarity and individuality into the family. But there comes a point where if you're just going to go off and do your own thing, well, you haven't really joined the family at that point. And I think Christian-wise, it's it's the same. You come as you are, but everybody is in the process of actually adapting to the ways of Jesus. And that will challenge all of us at different levels.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. The next, isn't Jordan Peterson oppressive? Why would Christians affirm that?
SPEAKER_01He might be, I don't know. It depends what people are thinking about. Um isn't he oppressive? I mean, to be fair, he doesn't have any power. You cannot listen to him. If you if you don't like what he says, you you can just sort of switch him off. Um which I do often, right? And and stop listening. Um it yeah, so much of that is in the in the eye of the beholder. And what I'm here to do is not so much to say, yay Jordan Peterson, or boo Jordan Peterson. I think he is a person who is also a phenomenon, who can be critiqued, who whose comments can be accepted or rejected. And in fact, I I think that's kind of what he would want as well. He would want us to have the freedom of speech to be able to discuss his ideas and perhaps accept them, perhaps reject them, perhaps say that they're odious. Um, but to use speech in order to have that kind of conversation. So without knowing more about which particular views are being thought of as oppressive or not, at least the one thing I can agree with about Peterson is I think it's better to have conversations about these things uh rather than to compel conformity to a certain ideology. And if you're at a university, I hope that that's kind of what you think as well. That that kind of free inquiry, free debate, hopefully, is the very atmosphere that that you live and breathe every day at UCL. Yes, amen. Yes, maybe. Um And if you think his views are odious, then you know, you can do this, you know. You're kind you're kind of free to do this. Um So yeah, that's about all I've got to say on that one.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. The next question is Peterson turns Christianity into psychology. Is that a distortion or a useful Dory?
SPEAKER_01Oh, what a great question. I think I think you're right. Peterson does turn Christianity into psychology. Um and that is a distortion. Um so if you if you listen to his Genesis lectures, um he does a he does a spellbinding job of taking you to Genesis chapter one. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, and he'll start talking about the creativity of humans all of a sudden. And he'll bring in all sorts of psychological truths about what humans are like. And it and honestly, he he has you in the palm of his hand as he tells story after story and cites study after study, and you're like, this is amazing. And you've almost forgotten that the verse of the Bible he's discussing is about God and not about humans. Right. Do you notice the switch is like, you know, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Yeah, humans are so creative, aren't they? And then away he goes, right? And so is that a distortion of Christianity? In in one sense, it's a 180-degree distortion of Christianity. He he's kind of substituting humans when when the Bible talks about God. From another point of view, I have found it incredibly fruitful to say, ah, but at the end of page one of Genesis, it says we are made in God's image. And therefore, because we're made in God's image, then of course we will be creative. And you can sort of you can do the argument from the from the other end of things. You can look through the telescope the other way, and you can kind of say, oh, but if you resonate with the wisdom in the Bible about what creative humans are like, then maybe that is maybe the inference to the best explanation is that we were made in God's image and that we kind of conform to this kind of God that is being described in Genesis 1. And so you could go to that lecture and you could either experience that lecture as an utter distortion of Christianity, and maybe you might be a Christian and you sort of storm out, and fair enough. Okay, it's a distortion of Christianity. Or you could go there and think, oh my goodness, there is profound wisdom to this. And you could pull at the threads of it and actually find Jesus. And I think, in fact, many people have trodden that route. So I think it's both. I think you're absolutely right. Um, he sees everything through some very thick psychological Jungian lenses. Um, but even having said that, I think it can be useful um to take that journey from the psychology to the theological.
SPEAKER_02Thank you very much. Now, for the interest of time, the next question will be our last question. Thank you for um thank you everyone for putting up your questions. And if you if your question is not answered, please feel free to stay behind because Glenn will be here so you can talk to him. So the last question for today is how should we as Christians then associate ourselves with Jordan Peterson, RSNs?
SPEAKER_01I don't know. Um in a sense, I don't think we should associate ourselves with Jordan Peterson for a couple of reasons. Um there are definitely positions and postures and things that Peterson has said that that I don't think are particularly Christian, and at that point when we're not associated with him. I think secondly, it can be a very needy thing to do, to bandwagon, right? Off the back, oh Jordan Peterson's popular, we're with him. Oh, Jordan Peterson's not very popular, oops, right? And there's lots of things that are wrong with that. And probably the first thing that's wrong with that is losing our confidence that we have a profoundly meaningful contribution to make to society, whether or not Jordan Peterson is with us or against us, right? Um so I don't think Christians should be so needy as to bandwagon off of Jordan Peterson's notoriety. But I think we would be unwise to ignore the fact that so many more people are buying Bibles and picking up Genesis and reading it. And from an earthly point of view, the reason why they're doing that, why many thousands, and that's probably an underestimate, many thousands of people are showing up in church, are hungry for the Bible, because of the insights that Jordan Peterson has brought to bear. Um I don't think we then associate ourselves with Jordan Peterson. I think we try and speak into this moment, and that's what this event is all about. For those who have been intrigued by Jordan Peterson, or for those who have been appalled by Jordan Peterson. It's worth putting on maybe some scriptural lenses and having a look at this phenomenon because it is a phenomenon. Um, how should we as Christians associate ourselves with Jordan Peterson? We shouldn't. Um He doesn't um want to attach himself to Team Jesus, not sort of um decisively. So I don't think we should decisively attach ourselves to Jordan Peterson. But there are definitely some wise and thoughtful things that can be said into the midst of a society that has been affected by Jordan Peterson, and hopefully this afternoon has been an example of that, I hope.
SPEAKER_02Thank you very much. And that brings us to the end of today's curious. Thank you all for coming, and most importantly, let's give another round of applause to Glenn.