

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>0:06</time>
      <p>
          I thought, oh okay, there is actually something that is in some way beautiful about this bizarre setup.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>0:12</time>
      <p>
          In the rubble of a church building, trying to come up with new values.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>0:17</time>
      <p>
          We&#39;ve deconstructed the Christian thing. Is there yet love, meaning, and happiness in the ruins?
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>0:22</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s not a meaning crisis, it&#39;s a connection crisis.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>0:25</time>
      <p>
          Yeah, yeah. What&#39;s the meaning of life? Okay. Is it good behaviour? Stoic. Good times, Epicurean.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>0:32</time>
      <p>
          The younger son is kind of an Epicurean, goes off to pursue pleasure. The older brother&#39;s kind of stoic. But that&#39;s not that&#39;s not the solution. It&#39;s not it&#39;s not good times, it&#39;s not good behavior, it&#39;s good news. Love, meaning, and happiness, where do we find them? That&#39;s today on the Speak Life Podcast. Hello and welcome back to the Speak Life Podcast. My name is Thomas Thorigod, media producer at Speak Life, and I&#39;m joined by Glenn Scrivener, and for the first time on the Speak Life Podcast, Naomi Brahm. Welcome. Hello. Did I pronounce your surname correctly though?
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>1:05</time>
      <p>
          Uh how did you say it?
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>1:06</time>
      <p>
          Brahm.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>1:07</time>
      <p>
          Brahm. Yeah, in general, people say Brahm. I sometimes get lazy and say Brem. I think technically it&#39;s German and it would be like Brem, something like that. People, you know, listeners can correct me if I&#39;m wrong.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>1:19</time>
      <p>
          Well, thank you. Well, it&#39;s wonderful to have you here. Whatever your name is. Um what uh what do you do at Speak Life?
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>1:27</time>
      <p>
          Um, I have just joined the team about three months ago. They&#39;re a lovely bunch. And I travel around the UK speaking at universities and churches and will be part of the podcast team. So this is probably the first of many episodes I&#39;ll be on.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>1:41</time>
      <p>
          We are so glad to have you here. I&#39;m very excited to see what God will do through you this year and beyond. Beyonder. That&#39;s the word I came up with that combines beyond and yonder. Um Saturday, the 24th of January, 2026, the three of us went to an event in London, and it was called A Modern Day Pursuit of Love, Meaning, and Happiness. And it was put on by Elliot Buick, who runs the Next Generation podcast. And you&#39;ve been on that twice. So he wouldn&#39;t call himself a Christian, I guess, but is exploring very curious and yeah, asks great questions. And so he was putting on this event uh in collaboration with Discourse Collectors. Very cool people. It was in a pretty unusual location, Asylum Chapel, London, which was basically this derelict and it had zero heating.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>2:34</time>
      <p>
          I could see our breath. January in London. Yeah. No heating.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>2:39</time>
      <p>
          A kind of dilapidated, crumbling old church, which was a a fitting environment in which to discuss this. Because it it it it was kind of it was a conversation held in the ruins of Christianity in so many ways. Yeah. And still trying to get love, meaning, and what was the other thing? Love, meaning, and happiness. Happiness. Yeah, yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>2:58</time>
      <p>
          What was that thing again?
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>3:00</time>
      <p>
          We&#39;ve deconstructed the Christian thing. And and very much that was the thing. We&#39;ve deconstructed the Christian thing. Is there yet love, meaning, and happiness in the ruins?
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>3:09</time>
      <p>
          And I got talking to Toby, who runs this discourse collective, um, and he said that his vision for it was that at university you have opportunity to have these kinds of conversations and to listen to debates and lectures about various philosophical topics you might disagree with. But once you leave university, we get kind of siloed into these different areas and and we just gravitate to the people that believe similar to us and where are these spaces. That that was what he found anyway as he graduated. And so as I walked in and I saw the free speech union over here who were like promoting their stuff and got chatting to Toby and saw um you know Domino&#39;s pizza being handed out generous like generously, and I thought, oh okay, there is actually something that is in some way beautiful about this bizarre setup.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_03</cite>
      <time>3:53</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>3:53</time>
      <p>
          Um at the same time, it&#39;s got it&#39;s like hauntingly beautiful in terms of building. And there&#39;s a funny, like, we&#39;re talking about love, meaning, and happiness, but it&#39;s kind of empty. It was a mix.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>4:04</time>
      <p>
          Absolutely. The first part we arrived for was Joe Folly, unsolicited advice, youtuber who&#39;s been on this podcast. He was doing a lecture on nihilism. So maybe we could start by reflecting on that. Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. That&#39;s according to the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Back to the podcast. How did that hit you, Naomi, as a Christian, hearing Joe Folly, who&#39;s a kind of very generous agnostic?
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>4:35</time>
      <p>
          Yeah, Elliot described him as a non-resistant skeptic who found the idea of God emotionally appealing. Um I I found his lecture quite helpful. Gosh, he&#39;s got a brain. I was I was trying to keep up. Um it was helpful how he he was explaining there are maybe two forms, and I I don&#39;t know if you remember whose work it is or whose thought this is, but where he said about there being two forms of nihilism. Um a nihilism of despair, when you&#39;ve got a given ideal but it is completely unattainable and therefore you fall into despair, or nihilism of disorientation, where within a particular ideal or category you you don&#39;t even know what to value. And um so nihilism of despair and disorientation and that his way he probably wouldn&#39;t put it this way, but his way of coping with nihilism as his belief, I suppose, um, is to categorize it into topics and to say, well, you might be nihilism nihilistic about X but not Y. And so then you gotta just deal with X, and maybe you need to So maybe you&#39;re nihilistic about the prospect of ever owning a home. But you&#39;re not nihilistic about like the avocado on Social this morning. You&#39;re not nihilistic about you know, one day falling in love and having a relationship, but like there are other areas of life you might feel hopeful about, and so if you can kind of contain your nihilism, um then you can do something about it.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>6:01</time>
      <p>
          Joe at one point said, Maybe it&#39;s it&#39;s kind of leading us astray to constantly be thinking about what&#39;s the meaning of life. That&#39;s almost a very abstract thing for most people, and he was wanting to earth it and make it more practical and be like, actually, are there individual parts of life that we can make sense of?
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>6:18</time>
      <p>
          Yeah, with that, he I I remember he said um we need to ground it and to kind of change our vocabulary. Yeah, he thought what we&#39;re talking about when you say what is the meaning of life, he thinks what we what we&#39;re actually trying to say is what is your daily motivation or something you think is worth expending energy over? Like he used those words, like expending energy over. As I said to him afterwards, I was like I was like, Can I just get this straight? You think that meaning is purely the thing that motivates you? Like that it&#39;s just it&#39;s not actually a bigger thing, it&#39;s just your motivation. He was like, Yeah, it is. And I was like, I d I just think it&#39;s weightier than that. I think it&#39;s significance and knowing your part in a bigger story.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_02</cite>
      <time>6:58</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>6:59</time>
      <p>
          Like it might be your motivation to like, you know, get up and look after your kids because they are the thing that but but you&#39;re part of the bigger story of the life that you&#39;re forming in them. You&#39;re you remember the years that have gone by, you&#39;re you know, your your role to play as a dad gives you motivation rather than just like I don&#39;t know.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>7:19</time>
      <p>
          I could be wrong, couldn&#39;t I, about my motivation. Like, like if my motivation was actually I just want to get up and play Xbox 24-7. Just so true, yeah. I&#39;ll Uber Eats everything, I&#39;ll never open the curtains.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>7:30</time>
      <p>
          I think you ought to reserve the right to say, bro, like yeah, we&#39;re not just gonna be like, hey Glenn, you know, whatever gets you out of bed in the morning. Right.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>7:38</time>
      <p>
          Right to get onto the sofa to play your X. If you&#39;re a good friend, you&#39;re gonna say, it&#39;s possible to get your meaning wrong. It&#39;s possible to be out of step, out of sync with a higher meaning. And I just I just don&#39;t know whether Joe&#39;s got the ability to be able to say, you know, one person wants to play Xbox the whole time, the other person wants to train to be a heart surgeon and save lives. You know, which is more meaningful.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>8:00</time>
      <p>
          Yeah, what is it up here that because he seems to be saying that he acknowledges that many of what we value in our culture has been shaped by Christianity, but he pointed out some quite helpful ways in which those are maybe being corrupted. So the example he gave was um with romantic relationships, this idea of finding the one has kind of taken culture by storm and people are kind of looking for their soulmate, and a lot of the time find that&#39;s quite an unrealistic proposition. It&#39;s like, really, there&#39;s one person out there that I&#39;m destined to be with, and then you feel kind of crushed when that doesn&#39;t happen. And so he was like, What if we have a more pragmatic approach of two people working together um to you know sacrificially build a relationship? Which sounds very Christian, um, but that was an example where he was taking something our culture values, and he&#39;s like, This value is actually making us miserable. Can we kind of replace that with something new? And I thought, actually, that&#39;s that&#39;s kind of interesting. But again, what is it up here that&#39;s actually saying this is better than than that? Right, okay. So do we need an ultimate meaning still? Can we do this piecemeal approach? What do you reckon?
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>9:08</time>
      <p>
          Yeah. Because well, because the like the next talk was was uh Jonathan Johnny Thompson. Thompson, yeah. He comes along as an Epicurean. So so Joe Folly is kind of talking from a nihilist sort of point of view. Epicurean. Um also you know, they&#39;re they&#39;re not atheistic. The you know, the Epicureans back in the day thought that the gods existed, but but let&#39;s let&#39;s just bracket that out of our consideration.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>9:32</time>
      <p>
          Was it an ancient Greek thing? Epicureans.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>9:35</time>
      <p>
          Epicurus was uh an ancient Greek. And it was all about the maximization of pleasure and the minimization of pain, and let&#39;s let&#39;s sort of make that happen. Um but but again, it it sort of came back to that problem of well, if I&#39;m going to solve, let&#39;s say, the the romance issue of there&#39;s there&#39;s a romanticization of the one. One answer to that could be, well, I actually do settle down with somebody who is who is imperfect just as I am, and we just make the other person the one and we commit to one another, and and but another solution to that is to constantly play the field and never settle down ever. And but and then you&#39;ve got just the the question of, well, what is it up here that&#39;s going to arbitrate? And is it just, well, the maximization of pleasure would mean I go in one direction or the other? Like it seems like we it seems like both the nihilist and the epicurean are trying to do without a pole star and they&#39;re trying to weigh things up. And at the end of the day, it it just ends up as as kind of I don&#39;t know, it it it like force of opinion, force of personality is gonna is gonna push Johnny in one direction and Joe in a different direction without that pole star up above.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>10:45</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>unknown</cite>
      <time>10:45</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>10:46</time>
      <p>
          In some ways though, listening to Johnny talk about Epicureanism, I I thought, well, this kind of is how we live, really. Like, I mean, in terms of maximizing pleasure, minimizing pain, like that I mean, you you&#39;re kind of just labelized, you&#39;re just putting a label to the decisions I make every day. And and sometimes it might be helpful in my, you know, chronic decision in fat like you know, what is it, decision fatigue? Chronic indecision to think. Yeah, yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>11:09</time>
      <p>
          When you&#39;re looking at the menu in a restaurant and you&#39;re thinking about which of these am I gonna enjoy most? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>11:15</time>
      <p>
          And so so yeah, yeah, I&#39;m sitting there thinking, how am I gonna like minimize pain in terms of you know unhealthy, you know, the long-term consequence on my body of what I&#39;m eating, but also maximise the pleasure, tastiness.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_02</cite>
      <time>11:30</time>
      <p>
          Right.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>11:30</time>
      <p>
          Yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, so I I sat there thinking, Joe, what I I in some ways am kind of on board as yeah, this labels how I probably make a lot of decisions in my life. And we yeah, yeah. And and in the same way with Joe and talking about nihilism, I was thinking, well, do you know what? If I did if I did believe that we die and that&#39;s it, then this seems like a reasonable way to cope with that. Yeah, compar compartmentalize, attack each thing as a s as a separate piece, um and make sure that I&#39;m happy in this part of life and then move on to this part of life and da da da. Um but it felt we talked earlier in the week, last week, about this idea of two-dimensional. It felt very two-dimensional.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>12:13</time>
      <p>
          Yeah, so in Batstone at the Speak Life Intensive, talking about this flat view of reality, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>12:19</time>
      <p>
          Whereas we would probably consider we live with another dimension and and into and and when you live 3D to listen to a few hours of 2D chat, you just feel like come on, guys, like there&#39;s something more going on that you&#39;re completely missing.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_00</cite>
      <time>12:40</time>
      <p>
          Speak Life is a community of people who see life through the lens of Jesus. All projects, including this podcast, are supported by people like me. Hi, I&#39;m Luke. My favourite season is, of course, summer. And I&#39;m from Hull, but now living in Yorkshire. And I really love it how Speak Life engages with the stories of our time. We&#39;d love you to join the team. Head to speaklife.org.uk slash give to find out more. Now, back to the conversation.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>13:15</time>
      <p>
          Yeah, and I want to hear about the 3D. If we just spend a tiny bit more time in the 2D, Epicureanism, not I don&#39;t know much about it, but I gather that it&#39;s normally a pivot against stoicism. That was the other like prevailing philosophy at the time. What were there any representatives of Stoicism on the night? Was Eliot Buick a stoic and what does that mean?
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>13:35</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s yeah, I mean Peterson is Jordan Peterson is very stoical. Um and and Sam Harris is very Epicurean. So so interestingly, those those debates that were back in 2017 or something that was a a real sort of breakthrough for for the Jordan Peterson kind of freight train, um, was even on the thumbnails, there was sort of Sam Harris has got this sort of smirk. Um as this headness, he used he wrote the moral landscape, and it was just all about you you just move towards pleasure. Yeah. And let&#39;s just find places on the moral landscape that are you know higher on pleasure and lower on pain. And Jordan Peterson is like you tie to your room and you shoulder the biggest burden you possibly can, and you march you know forthrightly up the hill with the cross on your back, and where to, Jordan? Just do it, shut up. You know, it&#39;s just like very stoical, actually. And and so yeah, th those have always been I guess I guess it&#39;s kind of the the good behavior versus good times, right? What&#39;s what&#39;s the meaning of life? Okay, good behavior, stoic, good times, Epicurean. And really, I I think in the post-war period we&#39;ve been very good times people, right? Wartime makes you into like Epicurious, Epicurus is not gonna raise up people for an army, right? Yeah, no, he&#39;s not gonna get he&#39;s not gonna get you to sign up as a soldier. Am I gonna enjoy this? Right. Probably not. Probably not. Yeah. Stoic is gonna say, shut up, be virtuous, be courageous, be forthright. Right. Like give up everything for the sake of country.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>15:08</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s interesting now as I think about the like join the army adverts.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>15:11</time>
      <p>
          Right.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>15:12</time>
      <p>
          Some of them are like are quite sort of yeah, yeah, made in the Royal Navy. There&#39;s some stuff that is like a bit more duty-driven, but some of it is kind of like just have an adventure. See the world. Yeah. Yeah. See the world and have an adventure. And you&#39;re thinking, hang on, hang on.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>15:28</time>
      <p>
          I got a talk from uh an army person at school, and it was like, Oh yeah, look at all this sport you get to do if you&#39;re in the army. And I was like, I think there might be a big aspect of being in the army that we&#39;re not addressing here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but that&#39;s interesting. So so virtue versus pleasure is kind of where a lot of our cultural debates go in the flat level. Yeah. Like, do you want virtue or pleasure? Right, right. Or both.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>15:52</time>
      <p>
          But like it always makes me think, like, in in Act 17, like we meet Stoics and Epicureans. It&#39;s so fun. Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>16:00</time>
      <p>
          I was sitting there thinking, I know about these guys, but I don&#39;t know that much about them. Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>16:06</time>
      <p>
          Yeah. So like, yeah, when you come across them in in Act 17, um, Paul is waiting for Timothy and Silas to join him in Athens, and while he is at ground zero of you know, ancient philosophy, or as far as he was concerned, philosophy. Um he was in Athens.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>16:25</time>
      <p>
          Modern is anyone being talking about us in a few hundred years in time. That&#39;s right.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>16:30</time>
      <p>
          Contemporary philosophy. Uh I love verse seven, verse 16. Paul was waiting for them in Athens. He was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. So interestingly, it&#39;s not like he&#39;s not like, oh, I&#39;m overawed by this. Is this where Plato, and this is where like Socrates was, and this is where Aristotle was, and like he&#39;s just like, these guys are really worshiping a whole bunch of fake gods. Like, like they&#39;re getting a whole bunch of stuff wrong. But he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks. So the the Hebrew scriptures are not unreasonable, and he is able to reason from the scriptures, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happen to be there. Here we go. A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. Sounds like Saturday. It sounds like Saturday. Yeah. Yeah. Because they&#39;re used to debating with each other. Like usually that&#39;s what&#39;s the funny thing. The funny thing is, they&#39;re usually going hammer and tongs against one another. And then Paul comes and they unite against Paul. It&#39;s like, oh, here&#39;s something new. What? Who is this guy? Um, they began to debate with Paul. Some of them asked, What is this babbler trying to say? Others remarked, he seems to be advocating foreign gods. So this is out of this world, whatever Paul was saying. They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. And I love that. So the Epicureans, good times, people. Stoics, good behavior, people. Oh good news. Good news.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>18:01</time>
      <p>
          Isn&#39;t that different? Yeah. And I&#39;ve heard you link that to the parable of the prodigal son because the younger son is kind of an Epicurean, goes off to pursue pleasure, finds that doesn&#39;t satisfy. The older brother&#39;s kind of virtuous, kind of stoic, but that doesn&#39;t satisfy. What what is the third way that that actually answers what both of these people are ultimately looking for?
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>18:26</time>
      <p>
          Right. And it&#39;s different, and it&#39;s not what the Stoics think. Like the Stoics, the Stoics would look at modern society and say we&#39;re totally Epicurean. Like even when we&#39;re trying to drum up, you know, recruits for the for the army or the navy, it&#39;s it&#39;s all about the see the world. Like the Stoics are like the elder brother. And so they think the solution for younger brothers is basically to come come be a slave like us. But that&#39;s not that&#39;s not the solution. It&#39;s not it&#39;s not good times, it&#39;s not good behavior, it&#39;s good news.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>18:52</time>
      <p>
          And the distinct difference here being that the Epicureans are finding a way to cope with death, right? And the Stoics sort of sort of the same, you&#39;re trying to decide what what is worthwhile in this short life, perhaps. And the difference here is that Paul is preaching Jesus and the resurrection, the good news being like a big part of that being that there is there is life beyond death in this man Jesus.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>19:18</time>
      <p>
          It was interesting. So so Johnny said at one point one of the reasons why we&#39;re not as happy as we should be, and we&#39;re going through a meaning crisis, and and but he called it a connection crisis.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>19:29</time>
      <p>
          Yeah, he he says it&#39;s not a meaning crisis, it&#39;s a connection crisis.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>19:33</time>
      <p>
          Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, because both he and Joe wanted to steer clear of meaning language because they don&#39;t have the poll star, they don&#39;t have the the you know the grand narrative to give them the meaning. And so it&#39;s a connection crisis. Okay, so we need friends, that&#39;s true. Like we&#39;re we&#39;re really no good at at making friends, and that we&#39;re only getting worse at it. And um, I had the opportunity to ask a question. I said, Well, is maybe Epicureanism kind of the the problem here? Because if I&#39;m constantly trying to maximize pleasure and minimize pain, then I you tell me that I need to have a friend, but why do I need to have a friend? Not for the sake of them. I need I need Thomas to kind of crank up the happiness, you know, and to I don&#39;t know if I&#39;ve ever done that.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_03</cite>
      <time>20:21</time>
      <p>
          You constantly do that.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>20:24</time>
      <p>
          I just think of Thomas and just the happiness, the happiness just cranks up. Likewise, bro. But uh But that&#39;s not why I love you, man. I love you for you. I don&#39;t I don&#39;t love you for what I get out of you. And and that&#39;s and surely if if Epicureanism is the way I navigate the world, then I&#39;m just I&#39;m I&#39;m actually using everything instrumentally because I&#39;m constantly having to maximize pleasure and minimize pain. And then I can&#39;t love you for you. And interestingly, you know, don&#39;t we know don&#39;t we want to value people for like intrinsically for themselves? And then he said, Well, at that point, you&#39;d have to be a moral realist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So moral moral realist is somebody who believes that there are objective moral values in this world, and it&#39;s not just subjectively valued, right? Right. And so I might I might subjectively value our friendship, but there&#39;s no objective value to either you or to the value of friendship, only insofar as I grant that thing a subjective value. And so I was sort of laying out this thing, like, wouldn&#39;t wouldn&#39;t it be better for the friendship and the and the connection crisis if we actually valued people intrinsically? And you seem to be saying, Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you&#39;d have to swallow this whole thing called moral realism. You know, which sounds very theistic, sounds almost like there&#39;s a god.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>21:38</time>
      <p>
          Yeah. Again, in some ways, I think we we often are Epicurean about our friendships. Yes. Like I enjoy time with Thomas because he really makes me laugh. Yeah. And do you know what I mean? Like that&#39;s a kind of laughing at me rather than which is understandable, but either way, I&#39;ll take it never at the same time. Um and there is a bit of a kind of Of you know, I gravitate towards people that you know are gonna make me feel good or are good at being friends back to me or that kind of thing. And but I think where I I was sitting there and thinking, I reckon he&#39;s never experienced what I&#39;ve experienced about my kind of midweek church community where it&#39;s like a Tuesday night, and I&#39;m thinking, Oh gosh, I&#39;m tired. Here we go again, with like you know, a bunch of people that we don&#39;t have much in common with except from the fact we&#39;re trying to follow Jesus together and they might not have the same hobbies and interests in me that as I do, they might not have um, they might not make me laugh, they might not be the kind of people that necessarily you know I benefit from in whatever way, and yet week by week, you meet together, you eat together, you read the Bible together, you pray together, and uh over the course of a few weeks, if you do that, you&#39;ll realize, oh man, this is there&#39;s a richness here that I would not have experienced if I had only stuck to like short-term, uh less sacrificial, less commitment-related um friendships.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>23:09</time>
      <p>
          In a sense, we&#39;re kind of running the experiment of what happens when a whole culture is so Epicurean. Like, what does that do to friendships? Well, it means you you end up ghosting people, right? It means you end up just, you know, the the wisdom is to cut the toxic people out of your life. Which like I understand that language, and I can I uh definitely know that there are you know examples in life where that wisdom can be applied fruitfully, but when that&#39;s like the number one go-to piece of advice, talk cut the toxic people out of your out of your life. It&#39;s like the you know, the Babylon B, you know um fake uh news headline was God cuts the toxic people out of his life, eight billion dead.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>23:49</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_02</cite>
      <time>23:50</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s true.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>23:50</time>
      <p>
          Well, I yeah, I uh Thank God he didn&#39;t know. Yeah, indeed. I&#39;m I worked with students for for the last four years, and that is just so in their vocabulary, the word I mean the word toxic, but just that is the way to cope with something is to cut yeah cut it out of your life or to you know turn your back on something and I don&#39;t know, it yeah. It is it&#39;s a self-preservation technique, isn&#39;t it? Yeah, and and it it just feels like a really difficult line to walk between you know, a a good version of taking care of yourself and and and not being in potentially I don&#39;t know, abusive situations like that. But sometimes it the word toxic is just used to describe anything that makes you feel uncomfortable or bad and like rather than something to work through and I don&#39;t know. Yeah, yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>24:39</time>
      <p>
          And especially because if if I&#39;m just by myself just trying to maximize pleasure and minimize pain, then I&#39;ve just got no resources to do like if you&#39;re a drain.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>24:49</time>
      <p>
          Yeah, yeah. I don&#39;t know very much.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>24:51</time>
      <p>
          And like you&#39;re you know So you guys saying we shouldn&#39;t ghost people, we should holy ghost people.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>25:01</time>
      <p>
          Oh dear. I don&#39;t know, I don&#39;t know how the verb to holy ghost somehow works.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>25:09</time>
      <p>
          Yeah, share Jesus with people, yeah, yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>25:12</time>
      <p>
          Um Yeah, you know, Paul comes to the Areopagus and comes to Athens and he&#39;s just like he&#39;s preaching good news, right? There are there are some people who are trying to like deal with life out of their own resources, just be good, just be good, and you know other people say just have a good time, just have a good time, and both of that&#39;s pressure. And Paul&#39;s like, here&#39;s good news, right? There&#39;s this other guy called Jesus, and he defeated death. That that that thing that is the great limit on your life. There is this limitless source of life, and his name is Jesus, and it&#39;s good news, and he&#39;s given to you. Now, out of that fullness, like, can&#39;t you then love? Can&#39;t you then find meaning? Can&#39;t you then be happy? But but it you know it starts with him.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>25:51</time>
      <p>
          Yeah, so the idea of in the rubble of a church building trying to come up with new values. We&#39;re giving it a go.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>25:59</time>
      <p>
          Yeah, modern culture is trying to give it a go. Uh, interestingly, you know, love, meaning, happiness. It&#39;s it&#39;s trying to create these things out of its own resources. And I don&#39;t think we&#39;ve ever been able to do that. It&#39;s always it&#39;s always been a gift from above. Wow.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>26:12</time>
      <p>
          So there we go. Um Epicureanism versus Stoicism.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>26:16</time>
      <p>
          Versus versus resurrection. Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_06</cite>
      <time>26:20</time>
      <p>
          Good news is for sharing. And if uh you found any good news in this episode, feel free to share it. You can subscribe to on your podcatcher of choice to stay in the loop with uh all upcoming episodes. But uh yeah, guys, this has been fun. Maybe we should go to more meaning events in future and cold dilapidated churches and see what happens.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_01</cite>
      <time>26:42</time>
      <p>
          Just take some more layers, both of you.
      </p>

        <cite>SPEAKER_04</cite>
      <time>26:43</time>
      <p>
          Yeah, I definitely need more layers. I need a new coat.
      </p>