SPEAKER_03

Am I going to hell? Are you going to hell? Stephen Bartlett. Is Stephen Bartlett going to hell? This is the clip that they're gonna put online.

SPEAKER_00

Sure enough, this was the trailer diary of a CEO used. Flames and all. Am I going to hell? Yes. But what Wes does in this full conversation is so much more profound, so much more subtle than anything the trailer captures. What we're about to see from Wes Huff is a great example of what it looks like to reframe a question and to represent the gospel through it. I'm Glen Scrivener from Speak Life. We like to see all things through the lens of Jesus. Why don't you give the channel a subscribe? Because the next video coming is my conversation with Wes Huff about how we reframe things and represent the gospel when people ask us questions. Now, in Wes's appearance on Diary of a CEO, the stuff about hell comes well after the one hour mark in a two and a half hour conversation. And as we watch these next seven minutes, I want you to think about what is the beginning, the middle, and the end of Wes's answer about hell. Check it out.

SPEAKER_03

God is not better off or worse off if we love him or worship him or believe in him. He he really isn't. He has existed in in love, in relationship. And yet, the story of the Bible is that God chooses to create out of an outpouring of his love, knowing even that we are going to rebel against him, we are going to sin, right? Do wrong against how he has actually created us to be, and still desires to have that relationship.

SPEAKER_01

And if we do sin, if I sin in my life, do I go to hell?

SPEAKER_03

You you don't I mean the answer to that is yes and no, but the Am I going to hell? Are you going to hell? Stephen Bartlett. Is Stephen Bartlett going to hell? This is the clip that they're going to put online, right? Wes says Stephen Bartlett is going to hell. I mean, here's the thing: everybody is going to hell. Everybody. Here's how I've said it in the past, right? The Bible is very clear: all good people go to heaven. But Jesus said, no one is good but God alone. So if all good people go to heaven, and no one is good but God alone, only God is in heaven.

SPEAKER_01

So do you believe that there is a hell and a heaven as we sort of typically understand it? A place that is great to go to after we die, and a place that is very hot?

SPEAKER_03

Place that is very hot. I mean, there's a lot of imagery of um like fire and weeping and gnashing of teeth. I think a lot of that uh is kind of reflective and allegorical more than it's like a physical, tangible thing that is, you know, most of our perceptions of hell are largely shaped by depictions in the Middle Ages of Dante's Inferno and that kind of thing, right? I think it's more so that you will experience the full weight of the separation from God's goodness, not necessarily a separation from God, because I think God's punishment and his wrath are going to be felt there. But if we're talking about like a good place, bad place, in the very simplest of terms, yes, but heaven isn't full of good people. Heaven is full of people who understand they are not good enough. And so I mentioned that like justice, mercy thing. Justice is fulfilled on Jesus. So because justice is fulfilled, now mercy, which is not getting what we do deserve, is able to be given to those who put their trust in Jesus.

SPEAKER_01

So if I don't believe in Jesus, and I don't believe in the Bible, but I live a good life. I'm nice to people, I'm charitable, try and be kind wherever I can be.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I don't believe in God. Am I going to hell or heaven as it relates to the scriptures?

SPEAKER_03

Well, I don't think if you're living your life rejecting God, God is not going to force you into his presence.

SPEAKER_01

So you mean I'm not going to go into heav I'm not going to go to heaven then?

SPEAKER_03

No.

SPEAKER_01

Where am I going to go?

SPEAKER_03

Well, you would you would go to hell.

SPEAKER_01

So So if I don't believe in the Bible, Jesus and God, then I'm going to go to hell.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, insofar as if heaven is a place for those who have submitted their lives to Jesus, who are living the identity of what they're created to be, and said, Your will be done, God. Hell is a place where God says, You rejected me, your will be done. I'm going to I'm going to give you what you want in that I'm going to remove my grace and mercy from you, and you are going to experience truly what you desire in being separated from me and my goodness and my grace.

SPEAKER_01

Trevor Burrus And what is that place like according to the scripture? Give me a depiction in my mind of what hell might be like for me. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I mean it's not a good place. It's not a nice place. It's a place that no matter what's going on, if you are a believer, if you if you truly understand what this book is saying, seriously, I think it should motivate you to want to desire. Stephen Bartlett, I desire you to have a personal relationship with your creator because I don't want you to experience whatever hell is. I I desire for you to be in perfect relationship with your God, not necessarily because I want you to get a get out of hell free card, but because I actually think that in living how God created you to be, in accepting living out the image that you bear, you're going to find the meaning and purpose that you ultimately have expressed that you have this innate desire for.

SPEAKER_01

I think it's about eight, I think it's eight according to Gallup, it's 18% of Americans don't believe in a God. Now, to get into heaven as it's described in the Bible, do I just need to say I believe in God, or do I have to have some sort of active commitment and evidence in my life that I am living my life in line with God's teachings?

SPEAKER_03

I think ultimately salvation, right? Salvation implies you're being saved from something. The good news is good news because the bad news is bad. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01

And the bad news is very bad. I was looking at what the Bible says about hell. And in um Revelations it says it's a lake of fire. In Mark it says it's unquenchable fire. In Matthew it says eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. In Matthew again it says, outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Yes. They will be shut out from the presence of the Lord, weeping and gnashing of teeth, and torment, eternal punishment, the smoke of their torment rises forever. This is not a place I want to go.

SPEAKER_03

No, no. And I think I think the urgency of the Christian message is the bad news is really bad. And that's what makes the good news so good. Jesus has taken on that hell on your behalf, and it goes beyond simply a believing. Right? It's not just about saying the right words. It's not just an incantation. You are not saved by what you do, right? You're saved by works. It's just Jesus's. Jesus lived the life you couldn't and made the sacrifice you can't on your behalf in order to establish that right relationship with God. So that's where grace comes into the picture. Justice is getting what you do deserve. Mercy is not getting what you do deserve. Grace is getting what you don't deserve. So insofar as Christ on the cross fulfills the justice of his holy law, mercy is enacted, and you don't get that punishment. By putting your faith and trust in Jesus as your Lord and your Savior, as your creator, you don't get that punishment. And now you get grace, which is not what you're owed, but you are adopted as a child of the Most High.

SPEAKER_00

Did you notice the beginning of the question? Where the whole thing comes from is that God is love. Wes says he lives in living, loving relationships. He has existed in a s in love, in relationship. He's talking about the three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The whole thing begins with the consideration of the three. Wes does not begin with the existence of heaven and hell in the future and then reverse engineer his gospel. That might be how Stephen Butlett perceives the Christian position, but Wes is going to reframe things and present the God who is love. And when we begin in eternity past, we don't begin with heaven and hell as these two symmetrical realities. Heaven and hell, as a phrase in the Bible, never appears, not once. Heaven and earth appears over 200 times. I think that's significant. The beginning of the gospel story is a love story. Heaven and earth are made for one another. Now the Bible is very clear, there is an under the earth. And it is the pit, and it is a place of outer darkness where there is weeping and wailing and the angry gnashing of teeth. But heaven and earth is the central concern of the gospel. Hell is for those who reject that love story. So that's the first way that Wes reframes things with the truth of the three. But secondly, Wes has the truth of the two as well. He goes on to talk about Adam as this representative figure.

SPEAKER_03

We live in a world that is marred by the brokenness of the fall. Of our first parents, Adam and Eve, making that decision to rebel against God, and because of that, now the creation itself has been affected.

SPEAKER_00

We live a life that is in Adam, a life that has rejected the love of God, and so we live in disconnection. We've rejected the light of God and so we live in darkness. We've rejected the life of God and so we live in perishing, in death. And crazily, we prefer that kind of life, that life in estrangement from God. And did you notice what Wes said? He's not going to force you, Stephen, to start loving him once you've died.

SPEAKER_03

I don't think if you're living your life rejecting God, God is not going to force you into his presence.

SPEAKER_00

By nature, we give every indication to God that we do not want his light, life, and love. And so we live in darkness, death, and disconnection. And this is the truth of the two. There is a two-ness to the world, there is a splitness to the world, and life in Adam is a life in estrangement from God. And there is no indication in the Bible that dying reconciles you to God. There's nothing about your death that's going to make atonement for that life of darkness and death and disconnection. And so God gives you what you have wanted. And it's incredibly fair that God gives you what you have wanted. He's not going to force you into the light when you have preferred the darkness. And that's completely fair. But then Wes says we get something so much better than fairness with the gospel.

SPEAKER_03

Jesus lived the life you couldn't and made the sacrifice you can't on your behalf in order to establish that right relationship with God. So that's where grace comes into the picture. Justice is getting what you do deserve. Mercy is not getting what you do deserve. Grace is getting what you don't deserve.

SPEAKER_00

In the gospel, there is a second Adam. Jesus comes to live our life and to die our death and to rise up again to offer us his heaven. He takes our hell to offer us his heaven. If only we will be one with him. And it's on the basis of being one with him that Jesus is able to offer us so much better than fairness. In fact, so much better than just mercy. Fairness is getting what you deserve. Mercy is not getting what you deserve. At the cross, Jesus takes our hell to give us his heaven. And then grace is Jesus gives you so much better than you deserve. Jesus becomes one with us, diving down into our hell, so that when we are one with him, we can have his heaven. And Wes is very clear that heaven is not achieved, it's received. And when we receive Jesus, we are in on the love of the three. We have his father as our father, his spirit as our spirit, his future as our future. It's for free and it's forever. Do you know the good news of 321? Wes is a massive fan of 321. Recently he just said this about 321.

SPEAKER_02

Hey, I'm Wes Hoff. I love 321. It's a phenomenal way to know what the gospel is. If you're a seeker, it's gonna provide lots of answers. If you're a believer, it's gonna help you navigate through helping others see what that is. Go to 321course.com. The three invite you in, the two determine the world. Be one with the Son of God.

SPEAKER_00

Go to 321Course.com. It's entirely free. It's a great way of saying life according to Jesus. Well, have you subscribed to the channel? You're not gonna want to miss my conversation with Weshuff, which is coming out on the channel very, very shortly. Give this video a like, share it around the place, and we'll see you on the next one.