Is the incarnation a bigger deal than the crucifixion and resurrection?
SPEAKER_02I refuse the dilemma. Out of a whole bunch of barren wombs comes the history of God's people, and then out of a virgin womb comes the great hope. Man cannot make a messiah. We are pure recipients of the Messiah. Yeah. Not a manufacturer of the Messiah.
SPEAKER_04John the Baptist, the iceberg, let us be thinking letters. And Jesus, the appleseed.
SPEAKER_00So that's a really, really important piece of Christian doctrine is that the incarnation happens at Christ's conception, not at his birth.
SPEAKER_04He is truly God, truly man, and that happens in the womb of a teenage girl.
SPEAKER_01If anything should grant value and dignity to the unborn, it's the fact that God himself became one.
SPEAKER_00But you could make the argument that, yeah, for churches which celebrate Christmas but don't celebrate the Feast of the Annunciation are liturgically pro-choice. Why?
SPEAKER_04Welcome to the Speak Life Podcast. I'm Naomi. I'm a Glenn, Nate, and Thomas, and we like to see all things through the lens of Jesus, including the church calendar. We're releasing this on March the 25th. We're gonna see March the 25th through the lens of Jesus.
SPEAKER_03Oh.
SPEAKER_04Why do I have here on the table with me some profiteroles? Well, because they were reduced at weight choice, but profiter rolls, and we've got some sweets, we've got some happy birthday candle as well. We're making a whole party of it. What's happening on 25th of March?
SPEAKER_02Okay, is it the birthday of the podcast itself?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. It is in part the 13th birthday of the Speak Life Podcast. Speak Life Podcast, episode one, 25th of March 2013.
SPEAKER_02Okay. What was that about?
SPEAKER_04It was University CU missions.
SPEAKER_02Oh. Yeah. Bang on trend. Beginners you mean to go on. Called the Evangelist Podcast.
SPEAKER_01The Evangelist Podcast.
SPEAKER_00With Andy Brinkley and Glenn's Grivener.
SPEAKER_04Well, who wants to do the on it?
SPEAKER_00Glenn A. I think Glenn's will do it because you 13 years.
SPEAKER_02No, no, no, no. But it's doing something stupid.
SPEAKER_01For anyone.
SPEAKER_03Okay, second time lucky are them.
SPEAKER_01For anyone getting the audio only. Uh Glenn just blew out the candles.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so there's more going on there, of course.
SPEAKER_01Okay, yeah, 25 years.
SPEAKER_04We're not about to do a whole episode on the Speak Life Podcast birthday. What else is happening?
SPEAKER_00So the 25th of March is Tolkien Reading Day. Oh. Okay. So fans of J.R.R. Tolkien like to spend the 25th of March every year rereading some of his works. Every year. That would be very hobbit forming. Hmm. Nice.
SPEAKER_03Oh.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, now it's why like in the canon of of what Tolkien, why the 25th of March is the day chosen.
SPEAKER_01I'm glad you asked, Nate. I think I do. I think in the Lord of the Rings books, it's the day that the ring is destroyed. Slight spoiler for me. In Lord of the Rings, there's a ring. Yeah. And then there isn't. And then Is that it?
SPEAKER_04Is that the story?
SPEAKER_00It takes a while to get there, but so then the question comes why would John the Ring Road? Sorry. Oh gosh. Why would Why would John Ronald rule Tolkien choose the 25th of March and make it explicit in the books to be the day in which the one ring to rule them all was eventually destroyed?
SPEAKER_04Well perhaps the question is what happens nine months after the 25th of March?
SPEAKER_01I've got it. April, May Go.
SPEAKER_00It's Christmas, isn't it? December 25th. It's Christmas.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. 25th of December. So what are we celebrating on the 25th of March?
SPEAKER_00The feast of the Annunciation.
SPEAKER_01So that is the moment that Jesus is conceived.
SPEAKER_04Which means yeah, which means it is the moment that God becomes man, that the creator becomes created. 25th of March, that is huge.
SPEAKER_00Right. When I'm doing my hero's creed stuff and I'm drawing this diagram that takes people through the um the apostles creed. Um when I'm doing that, I'll ask people when does the word become flesh, or when does God become man? And they'll say, Oh, it's Christmas, or when do we celebrate when that happens? But of course, actually the Bible teaches, Christians believe the creed says that he was incarnate when he was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and then it says nine months later he was born of the Virgin Mary. So that's a really, really important piece of Christian doctrine is that the incarnation happens at Christ's conception, not at his birth.
SPEAKER_04So who does celebrate the Feast of Annunciation? And and why doesn't my church celebrate it?
SPEAKER_00Well, so basically, be even the name itself, the Feast of the Annunciation, everyone, every Protestant instantly goes, That sounds very papist and Catholic.
SPEAKER_04To be fair, as a Protestant, I go, What is enunciation? Uh well as a human, I guess. What do you mean by enunciation? Like I feel like human. To enunciate, what is in my mind that meant to pronounce things correctly.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's because whoever taught you that was not enunciating correctly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I didn't realise it begins with an E. So what is an enunciation?
SPEAKER_00So it's when it's uh remembering when the angel Gabriel came to Mary to tell her that she was about to become pregnant with the Son of God.
SPEAKER_04Should we have a look at the announcement? The announcement the enunciation. The annunciation. Yeah, Luke Chapter 1.
SPEAKER_00Okay, let's do it.
SPEAKER_02The sound of Bible study. Pages flicking in a Bible.
SPEAKER_04Luke chapter one is a chunky chapter, it's a great chapter.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I like that we're reading it in March. We often read it in December, I think. Um okay, right, Luke chapter one. Should we go verse 26 to 38? Is that the appropriate length? Uh Thomas, do you want to read?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sure thing. In the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, Greetings, you who are highly favoured, the Lord is with you. Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kinds of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favour with God. You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob's descendants forever. His kingdom will never end. How will this be? Mary asked the angel, since I am a virgin. The angel answered, The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the Holy One to be born will be called the Son of God. Even Elizabeth, your relative, is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month, for no word from God will ever fail. I am the Lord's servant, Mary answered. Then the angel left her.
SPEAKER_04What do you what do you guys love about this story? What have you noticed as we read it this time?
SPEAKER_01Well, am I allowed to jump to a slightly different part of Luke one that's connected to this?
SPEAKER_04I I think that is allowed in Bible study. Is that okay?
SPEAKER_01So the mention of Elizabeth here. One of my favourite bits is where Mary visits Elizabeth and Mary's pregnant with Jesus. Where is it? Yeah, Mary visited. Yeah, it's literally the bit after.
SPEAKER_04Do you want to continue the history?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, is that okay. So verse 39 of Luke chapter 1. At that time, Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice, she exclaimed, Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear. So what I love about that is Elizabeth is pregnant with John the Baptist, and uh John the Baptist leaps in the womb, kind of in the presence of Jesus. And it makes me think of you know when people write personal statements for job applications, and they're like, Um, from the moment I was born, I wanted to be a school teacher. And you're like, sure, sure, sure you did. That's funny. But John the Baptist could could not only did he want to be an evangelist or was an evangelist from the moment he was born, he was an evangelist from the from before he was born. How wild is that! Wow, wow, wow.
SPEAKER_04But I mean babies get quite a lot. Yeah, but a bit of a big thing. But it says left in our womb. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Elizabeth knows what's going on.
SPEAKER_04Elizabeth knows this is different.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And she's filled with the Holy Spirit at the moment. And then she calls verse 43, but why am I so favoured that the mother of my Lord should come to me? So Mary is the mother of God. Which again, like Protestants get twitchy about that. They're like, That's sounds so Roman Catholic. No, no, no. Don't you believe that Mary is the mother of God?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like it's it doesn't say very much about Mary, it says everything about who the baby is in her womb. The Lord, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But the Lord is like a single cell in her womb to begin with. Yeah. The little Lord Jesus, even before he's laid in the manger, he's very, very little.
SPEAKER_04Very, very little.
SPEAKER_01And John the Baptist leaps in the presence of that single cell. Yeah. Might have been a coincidence, might have just been kicking.
SPEAKER_04I mean, she's probably a few weeks by then. In fact, if you would like to know. Yes, yeah. Yeah, I have a little chance. If you would like to get how long do you think it took for her to travel to the hill country of Judah?
SPEAKER_02Maybe let's say it's a monthly.
SPEAKER_04Okay, right. Let's say it's like four or five weeks. Okay, poppy seed or apple seed would be the size of the babies.
SPEAKER_00So small. We're doing the size of Jesus.
SPEAKER_04Size of Jesus.
SPEAKER_00Because obviously we could also know the size of John the Sea. Size of John the Baptist.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so what uh six months? Oh guys, what's six months in weeks? Tell me. Um twenty-four, twenty-five, twenty-six, twenty-six, twenty six. Okay, we're looking at about a lettuce. An iceberg lettuce, John the Baptist the iceberg lettuce. And Jesus the apple seed. Wow, to recognise Jesus as an apple seed. Yeah, I mean, this is all very mind-blowing.
SPEAKER_00So he's an apple pit and he's a lettuce. Size-wise. Just size-wise. This is not veggie.
SPEAKER_04This is a leaping lettuce.
SPEAKER_01A leaping lettuce. That does sound like a veggie tails. Yeah. Larry's a life. Yeah. I wonder if that's partly why Jesus says that John the Baptist is the greatest of all born of women, is that from before he was born, John the Baptist was proclaiming Christ getting at them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Recognized who Jesus was.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Nodging his mum to say, there it is.
SPEAKER_04Isn't it so interesting to think so many people would say, Oh, I wish God would just like show him like the hiddenness of God is a problem, type it's considered a problem. And yet the the moment God steps into his creation is the most hidden. Like the smallest that a being can be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Isn't that wild?
SPEAKER_02Like into a teenager, right? In in some forgotten part of, you know, Nazareth. Yeah. Now she's dislocated down, you know. Yeah. Like hidden in multiple ways. In poverty, in yeah, a forgotten part of the world. In a womb.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. I think I so infrequently think about Jesus in the womb. That's I mean, that's what this feast of enunciation is about, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01But some people might have assumed that the coming of the Messiah would be like the ascension in reverse, just like fully grown man descending from the sky. Um it's not that. It's not even like a boy uh showing up, it's not even a newborn baby showing up, but a single cell in Mary's womb. Yeah. Or is it two cells?
SPEAKER_04Two cells. I I'm gonna argue it's two cells, but Oh really? Okay is sitting there already.
SPEAKER_02Like that's I know, but I but I think when they fuse, doesn't it cause it?
SPEAKER_04Oh, maybe it's one cell. Oh, I don't know enough. I don't know enough about it.
SPEAKER_02I have to yeah, I have to retract a lot of sermons if it's good if it if it's single cells. Okay. Thomas go back, redact. Come on, redact, redact in all the transcripts.
SPEAKER_04Well, yeah, okay. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02It might turn out that there's some ancient heresy I've been committing for a decade at least. Small, anyway, tiny.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, tiny, tiny.
SPEAKER_01Fertilised by the Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Ain't no seed, but yeah, it's just yeah. Right from the very beginning, like the seed of the woman will come and crush the head of the ha of of of Satan.
SPEAKER_04And so the seed of the woman is an important distinction, as in it's not the seed of man by which everyone else is comes about, but it's the yeah.
SPEAKER_02Something weird is like right from Genesis 3. It's like something weird is gonna happen. A woman with seed. Are you kidding me? What? Like something supernatural.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But but Jesus is in the line of David, isn't he? And yet he's presumably not sharing genetic material with Joseph.
SPEAKER_02But Mary is also in the line of David. Right. Oh, of course. Yeah. I mean, Mary here is like just as Jesus is a second Adam, right? Mary is kind of a second Adam.
SPEAKER_04Second Eve, yeah.
SPEAKER_02In in terms of kind of receiving the word of God obediently.
SPEAKER_01Um my gosh. Sorry.
SPEAKER_02We're nine months before that. She's a very happy Christmas Eve.
SPEAKER_04How have I not heard that before? It's actually quite good. Oh no.
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_01Why did you use the word actually?
SPEAKER_00There is an image. There is a picture that was quite popular about ten years ago, maybe 15 years ago. And it is basically uh a sort of an icon in a way of a picture of Eve kind of with Mary and they're looking down at um at Mary's bump.
SPEAKER_02It's quite popular. Eve has a hand on Mary's belly, and there's a kind of a there's a snake curling around Eve's foot, but it's being crushed by Mary, who is holding, who is bearing the serpent crusher. Yeah, wow. Mary is the second Eve figure who instead of grasping after life, she's just kind of given this thing that is not her doing at all, but she simply receives the Lord's word. Like so kind of very, very different from Eve, who grasps at life on her own terms in disobedience. Here is here is Eve receiving the Lord's word, receiving the Lord.
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SPEAKER_04Back to the conversation.
SPEAKER_00Mary's also being contrasted with Elizabeth, obviously, because they're both pregnant. But also she's being contrasted by Luke with Zechariah. Because Zechariah has had his own kind of angelic encounter. Earlier in the chapter. Yeah. And his you know, um his disbelief that this is kind of possible is gonna result in him being mute.
SPEAKER_02I mean they both say how will this be, don't they? So Mary says, How will this be in 34? And from memory, doesn't Zechariah say how will this be as well? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you can say the same thing with a with a different heart, and it's sort of, yeah, out of scepticism he says it, out of wonder she says it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean they're quite it is quite similar. Verse 18, Zechariah said to the angel, How should I know this? For I'm an old man, my wife is advanced in years. And then Mary says, How this be, since I'm a virgin. Both of them are saying, Look, this isn't normal, this is not normal.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04This is not logical. Um, that's not how this whole baby thing works.
SPEAKER_00And there is a sense in which obviously Zechariah is also a kind of pointing back to Abraham and Sarah. Yeah, yeah. And Sarah's laughter, you know, at the ridiculous idea that she's going to become pregnant. Yeah. And then of course she gives birth to a son that she named Laughter. Isaac.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And it's sort of life into lifeless situations, it's hope into hopeless situations, it's light into dark situations, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That you know, out of out of a whole bunch of barren wombs comes the history of God's people, and then out of a virgin womb comes the comes the great hope that man is not the solution. Right. Yeah. You know. Like humanity can only receive God. We cannot we cannot man cannot make a messiah. Right. We we are pure recipients of the Messiah. Yeah. Not a manufacturer of the Messiah.
SPEAKER_01And then you fast forward to Easter, and uh the tomb in which Jesus is placed becomes the womb for resurrection and life out of which he emerges. Yeah, it's all the way through, isn't it? Yeah, the virgin tomb. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04And it means that we shouldn't be surprised by the resurrection. It's like, oh, but God already spoke into the darkness and let there be light, like created created in Genesis 1. Yeah. He's and then throughout He is speaking and creating life where we didn't expect it to come. Yes. Even his little fetus self is proclaiming life where you did not expect it.
SPEAKER_03Right, right, right, right.
SPEAKER_04And where it could not have been apart from the miracle of God.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04And so therefore we then skip ahead to the tomb and it's like, oh yeah, okay. Yeah, we kind of had this. Yeah. We knew maybe knew this was gonna come.
SPEAKER_00And and it's interesting, so we mentioned Tolkien earlier. I mentioned Tolkien earlier. Um so when he's writing on fairy stories, he gets towards the end of that and he talks about how the gospel is the greatest fairy story because it's the true fairy story. But one of the things he says is that the incarnation is the eukatastrophe of man's history. So the history of the human race is basically a tragic story, but then it's turned on its head, it's kind of flipped round, the eukatastrophe is when the incarnation happens. So now that the whole of humanity has kind of just been like redirected, and then he says, and the resurrection is the eukatastrophe of the incarnation. So the incarnation is like, okay, wow, okay, we've just suddenly turned a corner. Emmanuel, God with us, here he is, great, wonderful. And then, oh dear, we've killed him, he's dead, he's in the womb, he's in the tomb, sorry, and then you get the resurrection. So the sense in which the there's a connection between Christ's coming by the Holy Spirit, you know, from kind of out of nowhere, and the same thing is happening in the resurrection as well. That it's this kind of out of the darkness comes the light, out of death comes life.
SPEAKER_01So what is a eukatastrophe? I'm guessing it's not a disaster involving sheep.
SPEAKER_04No, it is a I was thinking it sounded like like a kid Catastrophic Eucharist. Yes.
SPEAKER_02The Corinthians have to be.
SPEAKER_00When I'm telling people about it, if we're doing the storytelling kind of seminar stuff, I'll always make the joke, you catastrophe, it's spelled EU catastrophe, but it's nothing to do with Brexit. And that gets exactly that laugh. And then I say it basically it's a good catastrophe. So EU, that that kind of uh prefix in Greek, it basically means good, which is actually the same prefix that we have on Uangelion or Evangelion, as we would say. Evangelism, the good message. So the good catastrophe. Good catastrophe. Everything you know about a catastrophe as negative, and now think of it as positive.
SPEAKER_04So normally a catastrophe catastrophe is considered like when things are going well and then it all gets turned upside down. But this is like when this is like the flipping upside down of the devil's schemes. This is like it was it was going well for you and then it didn't.
SPEAKER_00And so you know how sometimes people will talk about catastrophizing. It's like, oh, I was catastrophizing, and I was just thinking about all these terrible things that might happen and running away with myself for how you know, with this kind of negative attitude. We ought to eukatastrophize. And we ought to spend time thinking, what are all the amazing things that might happen? Like if God is in control and he's in the business of good news and new catastrophe and resurrection and all that kind of stuff, what are the absolutely out of the blue, unforeseen victories and glories and wonders that God will bring about? And that that might be a slightly more um positive experience for us to have.
SPEAKER_01The incarnation is a eukatastrophe. The resurrection is a eukatastrophe. You know how you did a talk recently on evidence for the resurrection? Yeah. Are you gonna do a talk on evidence for the announcement?
SPEAKER_02The five minimal facts. Yeah, the only possible Mary it couldn't have been a hallucination because I've got a few questions about this passage.
SPEAKER_04One of them is sort of about this. Is the incarnation a bigger deal than the crucifixion and resurrection?
SPEAKER_00I refuse the dilemma. You can't have one without the other. It's it's completely mad if you think about it. So but the I think what's interesting when I you know we talk to people about um uh when did God become man? They go, Oh, Christmas. And you go, actually, nine months earlier, you know, Feast of the Annunciation. And people are like, Oh, we can't celebrate that because that's be kind of that'd be weird. Like, but we are celebrating his birth. Pretty much every church is gonna go, we'll do something for Christmas, and also his resurrection or a death and resurrection, everyone's gonna but the thing that makes any of those possible, as you say, is the incarnation. So it's only because of this event that is recorded for us in Luke One that we can have God made flesh, and you know, he can then live the perfect life and and die for our sins on the cross and then be raised to life again. So yeah, it's it's kind of contingent. Yeah, yeah. It'd be very hard to have the crucifixion.
SPEAKER_02Although, yeah. I mean, so they have to come together. I think in our kinds of churches at Christmas time, I'll read online all sorts of messages saying, Don't forget at Christmas, don't stop your message at the at the manger. He grows up, he grows up and he dies on the cross. And I'm like, Yeah, good, fine. Yeah, very happy. You know, the the crib and the cross are cut from the same piece of wood. You know, this the same descending lord from heaven descends all the way into the womb. What's that? Literally the same piece of wood. Probably not. No, well, but that's quite a cool. But yeah, yeah. And whether it's a single cell or not, who knows? Like, just don't take anything I say literally seriously. So so at Christmas, everyone's like, Yeah, you've got to preach the cross and the resurrection because these two things hold together. I'm like, okay, good. Yeah. But then at Easter, I think there should be just the same number of posts from people saying, At Easter, don't forget to say he's one with us. Don't forget and I think we do forget that he's one with us. And I think eve even when we say the cross, right, we we don't really talk about the crucified Christ. We even get in our minds the idea that God has to express anger, and so he might as well zap a piece of wood, right? As as actually have you know Christ endure, you know, wrath on our behalf. That we've got a quite mechanistic cross and resurrection where the incarnation is not that important to our theology. I mean, it's vitally important to a true theology, but I think to a pop evangelical theology, the cross is just a mechanism whereby wrath gets zapped onto a substitute so that we can go, you know, scot-free.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Whereas it's it's not he takes our humanity to himself in incarnation and passes us through the flames of God's wrath and brings us in himself out the other side, and that his incarnation is absolutely integral to the whole atonement that's going on. Yeah. But I think if we do split the two things apart, I I I think we tend to forget the incarnation and just go to a kind of a discarnate cross.
SPEAKER_04I think that's why I'm asking the question, is it a bigger deal? Because it it feels like it just has such a low profile. You know, you know, if I was to try to explain to someone who Jesus is and what he's done, if I had a little checklist, I I I probably am definitely thinking, well, I want to tell them about the cross and resurrection, that seems pretty key. Am I spending as much of a priority talking about who not just what he has done and his work, but his person and his being like he is truly God, true, truly man, and that happens in the womb of a teenage girl. Like that I'm still yeah, I still am mind blown by that.
SPEAKER_01Because John 3 16, perhaps the most famous summary of the gospel from Jesus himself, for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. I've always heard it preached that the giving of his only son is the crucifixion, which of course it is, but uh yeah, that would be cool to talk about that in the context of the incarnation as well. But well, how does verse 17 go on?
SPEAKER_02For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Right? So it's it's it's all part of that incarnation, like yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you need that whole journey.
SPEAKER_02And like think think about like Athanasius wrote one of the most famous books in all of church history, just about salvation. Like the whole the whole of Athanasius' book is is about our salv. That the same one, Christ the Son of God, who created the world, is also the same one who redeemed the world. And what is the name of this book?
SPEAKER_04On the incarnation, right?
SPEAKER_00That's how uh that's how an ancient person, an ancient Christian, kind of thinks it's and when the Nicene Creed, who for us and for our salvation was incarnate and made man. Yeah. So that's yeah, the what is the purpose of the incarnation? Like what is this all about? What's our salvation?
SPEAKER_02It's at one-ment. Okay, he became at one with us. Yeah. You know, how how else do you pronounce that one month? It's the atonement. It's an atoning incarnation.
SPEAKER_04So that because that word was actually made to say that, is that that's the background of that word?
SPEAKER_02Well, Tyndale kind of invented that world word for for when he was translating Leviticus and that and that kind of thing. But but yeah, it's it's that is interesting.
SPEAKER_04So the word atonement was invented in order to explain something that's happening in the Bible that didn't really have a proper English word for it yet.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, kippah. So kippah is kind of like a covering.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_02And so Tyndale was trying to explain what was going on with the sacrificial system in the Old Testament. And and it's a great word because it's like everything, all that blood and you know, incense and pageantry is about the high priest getting into God's presence to make you at one. And so he you know, he translated the the Hebrew word kippam as atonement. But yeah, the per the purpose of the sacrifice is not simply to wipe the slate clean. The purpose of the sacrifice is to make you at one with God so that you're carried on the on the heart of the high priest and and brought you know towards the father. Yeah. Christ comes as one of our brothers, right? That's like like Aaron is your brother, as he does all that, you know, atoning work. That's the priest. Yeah, as as as our great high priest, our great high priest can't do any of it if he's not our brother, if he doesn't represent us in that way.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. What does this story have to say for those who do receive the news of an unplanned pregnancy? Is there any direct application here? Um being aware that for some people when they receive the news of pregnancy, it is wow, you know, Elizabeth, it's what they've longed for for years. They're absolutely delighted. Some people, oh, it's a surprise, but we're gonna roll with it and great. Um and other people, it really does come with dread and shock and fear. Does our discussion here about life being given like what is that what does that say perhaps to someone who has experienced the turbulent emotion of it?
SPEAKER_00I think we have to be careful not to Mary's pregnancy and you know, is not normative. So the the very kind of you know, this isn't immaculate conception is not kind of a regular occurrence. Um so whilst there will be, as you mentioned, several different contexts within which women find out that they're pregnant, um the this this one is uh in the one case the most unplanned pregnancy. There was she wasn't doing anything that could bring about this this pregnancy. Um and yet it's the most planned pregnancy of all time because this has been, you know, from from the beginning, you know, he would he would be uh he would be born. Um But I suppose what's what's quite tricky with this with the the context within which women could get pregnant and it really be against their wishes or against their plans you're actually talking about something which is a very a very, very sensitive issue which is the idea that there is a a pregnancy which is a result of of um of non-conceptual sex. And I think that that context is one that you know you want to be speaking into that with real sensitivity and and and clarity on on God's kind of goodness. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02But I mean in in terms of when does life begin, I think the Annunciation gives us the most definitive answer in the Bible. I think you know, you can go you can go to certain psalms and talk about, you know, from from conception, you know, from the time that my mother conceived me. That's when the human person begins. And and and I think that's perfectly valid to go from the psalms and and say life begins at conception. I think to go from the feast of the annunciation is probably the the most slammedunk of when does life begin? Because when when does the human life of Jesus begin? Like he's got the frame. He should frame what we think. When does human life begin? Well, when does Jesus' human life begin? We we know that. You know, it it is conception. And then there are a whole bunch of very difficult questions to work out from that point. But what we're dealing with in each of those questions is what do we do with these two human lives, the mother's life and the child's life. Yeah. And and now we've got two people to can to concern ourselves with, not just one. Um and there are all sorts of difficult, you know, issues. And and and at the end of the day, we we want to say um that you know, we make our plans, but life is what's given to us. And if life has been given to us, then let's receive that gift.
SPEAKER_04As a gift.
SPEAKER_02As a gift.
SPEAKER_04Um, and it's still not something that you can really have control over. Yeah, like I said, people try for a long time and don't conceive, and that only God can give life.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And Jesus is a brother to that life in the world.
SPEAKER_04Huh. Yes.
SPEAKER_01This is the passage that um made me pro-life because it was it was kind of this sense of if anything kind of should grant value and dignity to the unborn, it's the fact that God himself became one. It's pretty, pretty game-changing, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04Okay, so if we only celebrate Christmas and not the Feast of the Annunciation in our churches, what then is that saying about life pre-birth? And is there how could we celebrate the Feast of the Annunciation? Could this I mean I'm just throwing it out there, could this be an opportunity to celebrate the pregnant women in our church? I mean, most of the time for the first three months you won't know because I'll be keeping it quiet. But are is there a moment in the church calendar to honour those who are carrying life and have received it? Yeah. I don't know. Maybe that's not what this is, it's not really what this is uh about, but it is it an opportunity to do that?
SPEAKER_00You could make the argument that yeah, for churches which celebrate Christmas but don't celebrate the Feast of the Annunciation are liturgically pro-choice. Why I don't think any of those words have been put together in the same sentence before. Well, maybe the first. But it is an interesting thought that okay, do we think life starts at conception or do we think life starts a first breath? And one of the big arguments for um yeah, the pro-choice position is to say, Oh, well, the Bible teaches life starts at at first breath. Or I think it was Ali Beth Stocky was on that surrounded program, which is an incredibly obnoxious format for a conversation.
SPEAKER_04So it's several people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, one person sits in the middle, the kind of celebrity, the opinionated celebrity sits in the middle, and then 20 people sit around them, and then they all have to run to grab the chair and make their argument on a particular question. And Ali Beth Stocky, who's an American um broadcaster, podcaster, uh, she was um speaking as a conservative Christian to some liberal Christians, and so when she was starting a kind of here's a next question, I want to talk about the fact that the Christian position is the pro-life position, and there's a guy who jumps in and he says, Uh Jews believe that life begins a first breath, and she's like, No, but and then she takes him through various scriptures to do with um yeah, Psalm 139, you knit me together in my mother's womb, all that kind of stuff. But she's making the point that for a consistent understanding of the human person, you have to understand that the human person begins at conception, not at birth. And so I suppose it's overstating it probably, but when we celebrate Christmas, the birth of Jesus, but we don't recognise the conception of Jesus, what are we communicating? We're not trying to communicate, I know, but we may be guilty of communicating that it's only from birth that we we actually care about the human being. And there is an opportunity in on the 25th of March every year to say we really care about the human beings, and we care about the most vulnerable human beings, we care about the unborn. And so on this day we're gonna celebrate that God became man and we are gonna pray for all those we know who are currently in utero or who are currently pregnant.
SPEAKER_02Although I I on December 25th think that that might have been when Mary was actually conceived when Jesus was conceived. Okay, go on. Wait, what because nine nine months after December the twenty-fifth is September the twenty-fifth, which is the feast of Tabernacles. Tabernacles when he tabernacled among us, and maybe that's what John 114 is kind of talking about. So that his maybe his birthday is September 25th, which is why the shepherds are on the fields watching those. I have a friend who thinks this as well. Okay. Okay, so you're saying we've got to be. Well, yeah, yeah, you and my friend Jay.
SPEAKER_04Shout out to Jay. So you so um Okay, so if Oh actually I like that.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So three of us. But that's Thomas?
SPEAKER_04It feels like this is now the toss-up between it's like you've got okay, so the Catholic and and Eastern Orthodox Church celebrating the Feast of the Annunciation on March 25th, and then you've got a lot of people celebrating Christmas on December 25th or thereabouts.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, quite a lot.
SPEAKER_04And then and then the Jews celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles on September 25th, for which I is it always September 25th? I don't think it always is. Is it October? I I once took some annual leave to go and build fort in the woods the Feast of Tabernacles. Oh, did you? Yeah, it was really fun. Because I love that concept of God for me to tabernacle.
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SPEAKER_04Uh lower.
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SPEAKER_01Thank you, and God bless you.
SPEAKER_04One more question about the Luke 1 story. This is this is difficult. So um I've got a friend who asks very good and difficult questions about the Bible, and she's picking apart her faith at the moment. Um and she has voiced to me that she finds this very passage quite disturbing because it could be seen. It could be seen like God is forcing himself on Mary. Like she doesn't sh does she actually really have a choice here? Um it it's not like a s a suggestion, and then we know okay, she's now she says let it be, and then it is like, did she really have could she have said no? Is this in some way actually like a an imposition, like a a bit of an invasive move from God? Um what do we do with that?
SPEAKER_02I mean, one thing to say is that I mean the whole point of the story is that this is not sex. Like that the whole point of the virgin birth is that this is very far from sex, which is why Mary is so amazed and it's why this miracle is kind of at the heart of the faith. Um so there are lots of things to say about this this question, but for your friends and also for um people from other cultures, um Muslims uh sometimes, you know, will will read this as you know, but perhaps there's some kind of sex going on between you know God and Mary, which is absolutely not what what Christians are saying at all. That's the sort of paganism against which Christianity um position positions itself. So um so this is whatever this is, everybody should be able to agree that this is not forced sex. It's actually the very opposite.
SPEAKER_00So that's that's one thing to think about.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_00And I think on the pagan thing, so in lots of other mythologies, you will have stories of of the gods coming to sleep with the mortals. And usually they kind of take the form of some animal and then have sex with them or but That is, as Glenn says, so far from what the Bible is saying here about how, you know, the incarnation. Because it's not that there is a deity who's coming down, having sex with a mortal, and then there's going to be the offspring of of this, you know, this hybrid creature. It you're not talking about that talk. You're talking about the eternal logos becoming flesh. And so it is therefore not involving the ordinary means of human reproduction. But I do think possibly the an explanation for some of those mythologies where Zeus comes down as a swan or something and sleeps with Leder or something. That you've actually got the story of of the Nephilim back in Genesis 6, where you know the the sons of God or the they can find the the daughters of men to be attractive. And that is that seems to suggest that it is happening in a carnal way. Whereas yeah, the the old And it is completely condemned.
SPEAKER_04Like in the description, it's a very strange story, but it's absolutely seen to be a not a good thing.
SPEAKER_01It precipitates the flood. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's it's like a prequel to the precipitates.
SPEAKER_02Okay. But what's tangential to the whole thing is I I think we do, as modern Westerners, um react against the idea of God having a will that sort of transgresses our will business. Because we're not saying this is for sex at all, but you still might have the problem, well, like he is making Mary go through with the pregnancy.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right. Um at that stage, I think that is like any other kind of divine providence that happens over human affairs, in which you know, God might give, in this, in this case, an amazing gift that in the first instance is received as a catastrophe or might naturally be thought of as a catastrophe. But Mary is able to you catastrophize and think of this as the great gift that it is, and that that it is indeed a blessing that comes disguised as an inconvenience or you know the th as a torpedo, right? But I I think that is a model for what all of life is, actually. I I do I do think that God gives life when he gives Jesus to you. In receiving that life, your whole world will be upended. And it it will be not your will be done, God's will be done. Like we can't get around that. There's absolutely nothing uh about sexual abuse going on here because there's nothing about sex going on here. But I I think we do react against this because we don't like the idea of our wills being violated. Yes.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. But I I think And our body like the whole the I mean that's that's the bodily integrity of Mary. Yeah, the kind of bodily autonomy of like but Yeah. Yeah. To think that it's not just a thing that's happening in her life external to her, but even inside of her there is something that she has not chosen.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, nothing my my whole life I did not choose. I became I became a body against my will. Or not against my will, without my will. Without your will, without my will.
SPEAKER_01None of us, no one asked us if we wanted to be born. No, but we receive life.
SPEAKER_02And we receive life and we can do the merry thing, which is after the fact of me becoming a body, after the fact I can do the merry thing and saying it will be to me according to your word, and I I can receive life as the gift that it is, however inconvenient it is, because I might not like the body that I'm given. And I might not like the things that will happen to me in life in my body. But it it's not it's not a unique thing that Mary has to go through in this. I think all all of us are thrust into this world without our will, without our consent. And then it's a question of what we do with it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think this is a microcosm of of that that bigger thing, which is what life and and life has to be that way. I cannot have life according to my will. I can't, right? Because I'm not around to consent to me having life. I'm not around to consent to me having a body, I'm not around to to consent to me having the body with whatever defects my body has. Yeah. Um the gift comes first. Our glad yes and amen to it is is the right response once we've understood that this is God's good gift that will fundamentally be for my blessing, and as much as it's a torpedo, you know, in the playground of my life, it will ultimately turn out for good. We all have to deal with that, but but even if even if Christianity is false, and even if the Mary story never happens, we all have to wrestle with the fact that without my will, lots of stuff is happening to my body all the time, actually. Forces that I cannot control are coming. Here is a narrative in which the life that is given is coming from somebody who loves me, and though I will go through a dark valley, it w there will be a eukatastrophe that that turns out for good. So that I think this this story is your best hope at a kind of a glad reception of God's will as opposed to just everything simply happens to you, and and at that stage your your will really doesn't matter, right? If you if if we walk away from this story.
SPEAKER_01Is there something in the humility of the incarnation as well, in that it would be quite troubling if it was just God on high decides to arbitrarily say, I'm gonna make you pregnant now, but actually God chooses to become dependent on Mary, which is pretty radical, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04Um that is helpful actually. Yes. Yeah, because it's it's it's not a thing that's happening separate from God, like he is this powerful zapping, this thing is going to happen to you, but it's that this thing is going to happen to me, like God himself is that makes sense?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think I think for your friend you mentioned the beginning, who's got questions about it. I think I would say, well, let's listen to what Mary says. Like let Mary speak, and that's why the Magnifica is there to to to allow us to get Mary's perspective on this situation. And she's remarkably you know, worshipful. And she's not kind of yeah, letting her speak, I think, is the is the key thing there.
SPEAKER_04From now on, all generations will call me blessed. Yeah, she does consider herself to be doing pretty well.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, apart from all those other people are gonna tell me that I'm not blessed.
SPEAKER_04And and I think that but there is a difference in culture as well, because then I mean our view of children is that often that they are an imposition and an invasion into our neatly controlled lives. Whether it's someone else's kids walking into my house or whether it's me myself having children that's gonna disturb my career or whatever. But but I think I don't as I w sometimes I wonder if it was easier for Mary to receive this as a gift because like we see with Elizabeth, children were a sign of God's blessing and understood to be that way. And today we we don't I mean, even in the church, the way that we talk about kids isn't to honour and receive them as a gift often. Um sometimes we're great at it, and other times I mean, I walk I walk past the playground and see the noise the kids are making, and I think, thank you, Lord, that I go home to a quiet house, and then I think, oh gosh, no, these are a gift from the Lord, like how it feels like our our Western individualistic control focused, my will, my plan, um that kind of way of seeing my life does mean that kids will seem like a disturbance to that, and in lots of ways, Mary's the disruption for Mary in terms of what plan she's got.
SPEAKER_00The only real question, the only real thing that the Bible points us to is whether she will actually get married to Joseph. We don't know anything else about what Mary, you know, is aiming to do with her life. What does she want to be when she grows up? What's she trying to you know achieve with her life? A real estate agent in North Nazareth. Life goals, you know.
SPEAKER_04I mean, she was probably hoping to be, but but this is what I mean is that she probably was hoping to be a mum.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04That would and and and I mean like for for lots of us, that is still a a part of a hope for the future, but it's not always like the it's not like the the thing. Yeah. For some people it is, but for some people it's not. And but I feel like in this culture that was the thing, right? That was that was what you did as a woman. Maybe I'm maybe I'm oversimplifying it.
SPEAKER_00And to go back to the Eve point we're making, where Mary is, you know, the Christmas Eve, she is the one there is one pregnancy that will need to happen. All like there's loads of other pregnancies are going to happen because the nature of the human race and and human reproduction. But there is one pregnancy we are waiting for from the opening pages of scriptures, and this is it. And her perspective from the from the Magnificat, certainly, is I was chosen to be the pregnancy that basic is the eukatastrophe of human history.
SPEAKER_01The God bearer.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that that is just you know, talk about the kind of plucked from obscurity and then given this kind of this role, like, you know, becoming royal, you know, in that sense, you know, like be from you know, I don't know, is Mary the first, you know, Disney princess or something.
SPEAKER_04It's like you know, but just she is for this moment, she is the main character.
SPEAKER_00Like, I mean she it's like I'm not gonna call her the Queen of Heaven or anything, but it's just in terms of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Godbearer.
SPEAKER_02Which is both both of which are true.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, not so much better. The sense in which she has just been given this, you know, golden ticket. This just Yeah. You know, yes, there's the fear risk of of what what's her marital status gonna be. Joseph has in mind to divorce her quietly.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because he doesn't want to bring shame to her. But then Joseph says, No, you know, for better for worse, and sickness and health. Like I'm with you. And together we're gonna be the, you know, one of the most famous couples of all time.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, power power couple.
SPEAKER_02But that's I I just love I just love what you were said saying earlier, Nate, about it's the most unexpected pregnancy, and it's the most expected pregnancy. Like it's the most unexpected pregnancy because she's a virgin, so you don't expect that at all. It's the most expected pregnancy because you know, David Ferguson, the theologian, said um the reason the world was made was so that the Son of God might be born, right? Wow. So it's the most like the there's a universe so that we can have the enunciation, right? There's like So it's the mo it's the most expected it most expected from God's point of view, the most unexpected from the human point of view. And I guess all of the Christian life is sort of submitting yourself to God's story to hear the song again and hear the song again, hear the song because from an earthly point of view, everything that's coming my way is a disruption, and everything that's coming my way is unexpected, right? But can I receive it as a gift from on high that life is coming to me from on high and God's got this thing in hand? And I don't know, I don't know how he's gonna turn this thing to to to good. But with Mary and hearing her her song, it it transforms every everything that comes. And without without Mary's song or without this story, everything will always just hit me as totally unexpected and outrageous and disruptive and you know and and and heading me down towards death. But you know, with Mary's song, with Mary's attitude, I can receive it as a gift that actually gets turned turned to life. So this is this is your best shot at actually receiving all of life as a gift, right? With with without this, everything is a violation of my will. Because I'm not I'm not big enough to choose my way through this world. You know, this is this is the best shot at actually receiving life as a gift rather than experiencing life as a catastrophe.
SPEAKER_04And crazy to have drawn that parallel though, Glenn, between how Jesus you said about earlier, how Jesus enters each of our lives. That also can be completely disruptive. Yeah. It's a death to self, isn't it? Like it's a it can feel like death, but it is it is the gift of the greatest life for the Holy Spirit to dwell in us as as the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and the Son of God dwelt in her, and now the Spirit dwells in us, and that can also feel like a complete this was not my plan moment in life. For for those who do have a have quite a clear moment like that or a journey that does feel like a flipping on its head, um, and for those of us who it's been gradual, actually, technically that is still is our story, isn't it? Like, no, this is this is not this is not expected. So but it is it is just interesting to acknowledge that for Mary, there's probably a mixture of emotions going on. We do see her feeling like she is blessed and like she's she's playing the best start, best part in the best story kind of thing that a human could play. But but I think it's okay to acknowledge that she will have felt all kinds of things, and that her pregnancy probably, although yeah, she survives, Jesus survives. It doesn't mean that it was pleasant, like she's probably throwing up and crying out to God in the middle of the night and thinking, Yeah, are you kidding? Like, okay, somehow God is yeah, yeah, somehow God God is dwelling in me and it is causing a whole load of difficulty, but this is still the most beautiful part to play in the most beautiful story.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Complicated.
SPEAKER_00And she gets to to go through the birth pains, which is part of the fall, but it's bringing about the salvation. Yeah. You know, it's not bringing about the salvation of the world, but yeah, it's it's bringing the saviour into the world. It's gonna be her labour pains, yeah. Have got so much kind of resonance resonance and meaning behind them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so is it painful? Yes, but is it worth it? Yes. And she would have had the same feeling, I imagine, in watching her son crucified, which was probably much worse. A sword will pierce your own soul.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, far worse.
SPEAKER_01But then the resurrection happens. It's interesting, is it Michelangelo's Pietra? He depicts Mary holding the the dead body of Jesus, and he depicts Jesus as a 33-year-old man, he depicts Mary as a young woman, like younger than that. And it's it's not that he's stupid and he's thinking it got the ages wrong. It's very deliberate. He's trying to show yeah, that Mary, it's that same Mary who gave birth to him that holds him. Oh no, what's happened here, but the euphatastrophe resurrection.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yes.
SPEAKER_04I'm particularly, particularly encouraged by Glenn what you said there, that because God himself becomes the smallest of beings and an unborn child, Jesus is not just uniting himself to us post-birthday, but Jesus, yeah, he is the brother of the unborn. Um and that for all of us, there are many things in life that might feel like it was not our plan, and like it is an absolute catastrophe, and yet through the eyes of God, it could be a eukatastrophe, it could be the the death that brings life. Um, this is rich.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So I'm not sure how we're gonna celebrate the 25th of March this year. I don't know how your churches might do it. Um it's not a Sunday, so I don't know what that in fact. Oh, yeah, you're gonna read some talking. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, of course. Um, there is, in fact, on the Church of England website a whole service that you could do with some lovely prayers, some particular scriptures, um, and there was a section of one of the prayers that I just absolutely loved when I saw it this morning. And this is what it says From the warmth of her womb to the stillness of the grave, he shared our life in human form. In him, new light has dawned upon the world, and you have become one with us, that we might become one with you in your glorious kingdom. Therefore, earth unites with heaven to sing a new song of praise. We too join with angels and archangels as they proclaim your glory without end.
SPEAKER_00Amen. Hallelujah. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_04We'd love to hear what our audience have to say and questions, comments. What do you think? Um, you can get in touch through our Discord channel, you can get in touch on Spotify. Did you know? You can leave comments. Had a comment recently. Um, a nice little compliment for you, Glenn, on a recent podcast episode. Fantastic clarity for a very vast and complex topic. Oh that's nice.
SPEAKER_03Okay, vast complex.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I hope that's what we do. Bring some clarity as we see life through the lens of Jesus. Um, we've had comments, uh, questions as well on Discord. Um, is Jesus' birth historically accurate? Talking about the manger and exile to Egypt, the Major Star. Are the details of his birth historically accurate? There are different questions and comments coming through. Um you can also email podcast at speaklife.uk and we would love to know what you think. And maybe we'll do we'll do we'll do some QA at some point soon.
SPEAKER_02Or QR, isn't that what the kids are saying these days? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Wait, what is response?
SPEAKER_04Might not be an answer.
SPEAKER_02Answer things. We'll we'll just respond.
SPEAKER_00No. No, no, it's not. Well, it is now.
SPEAKER_04Great. Well, in questions, anyway, time for us to enjoy some professionals. We will see you next time on the Sweet Life Podcast.
SPEAKER_02See you later.