Now of my three score years and ten, twenty will not come again.
SPEAKER_10X equals minus b plus or minus the square root.
SPEAKER_02What do you know? Come on.
SPEAKER_10Oh yeah, it's on us.
SPEAKER_02Oh, um, I do know all the actors who've played Doctor Who.
SPEAKER_10Oh, okay. Alright.
SPEAKER_02If there is one thing that you would recommend any Christian to memorize today, what would it be? Ooh, now you've got me. On this podcast, we learn stuff. Still learning. Live.
unknownOh, live.
SPEAKER_02Learn. Love. Laugh. Love. Live, learn.
SPEAKER_10Uh yeah, do.
SPEAKER_02Hello and welcome to the Speak Life Podcast. My name's Thomas Thorigod. I'm joined by Nate Morgan Locke and Naomi Brahm. Today on the podcast, we're thinking about memorization. What are we thinking about?
SPEAKER_03Memorization.
SPEAKER_02Hey, you got it. You've already memorized something. Wow, we're doing well. I did make that joke earlier, but uh repetition is a form of comedy. Repetition is a form of comedy. And uh we're thinking, you know, in this age of smartphones in pockets and you can just get the answer from Google in seconds. Why would anyone want to memorize anything? And particularly in the education system, is memorization as a learning method just completely outdated and Victorian? And we've moved past that because it's not about knowing information off by heart, it's about knowing where to look. That's often what I hear. And Naomi, you graduated pre-COVID, so you actually had to memorize stuff for your finals exams. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_10My exams were like the straightforward, it was so it was a physics degree, and you had to like, you know, you learn the textbook content, you you drill the maths, you know how the how the processes work, and you then have three hours to summarize like that. That's then the end of a whole module is just three hours in the exam hall, boom, done. No, no open I think I had one open book exam, and actually it was the worst because that there's too much like there was too much they could ask you about in like an hour and a half. It was a big book. Yeah. Was that memorizing just you had to learn your stuff, or were you literally memorising certain formulae or whatever by heart so that you could like sort of I I lived, I think from GCSEs through A levels university, and then now, even as I'm trying to learn Hebrew vocab, I I kind of live life off of flashcards. And so even yeah, even live life laugh sometimes. Yeah, yeah. Um so even with concepts rather than just learning an equation, even with concepts, I was learning it by a question and answer like response. Yeah, so question and I would get used to oh, when I asked myself that question, this is the answer, which maybe I mean I guess that's similar to what a catechism might be, which maybe we'll come on to later.
SPEAKER_02Oh, hello. Yeah. Well, I graduated in the midst of COVID, so my finals exams had to be online, and then the the lecturers were like, Well, we can't police it, so we've just got to allow them access to the internet. But what's interesting is that since COVID, and we're going into exam season now, people listening might have kids who are about to go through exams.
SPEAKER_10Or people listening might be gay, people themselves, yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Listeners themselves. That question has has come up again and again, and I think a lot of institutions now have decided oh, this is the model going forwards, that it's our exams are less about memorisation and more about knowing where to look and this kind of thing. But uh the way you kind of brought up this topic in my mind, Nate, was you did a a video on the Reform Mythologist channel, I think maybe a year or so ago, where you looked at a a clip from Question Time from 2011. Could you kind of set up what that is and then we'll watch?
SPEAKER_03So um yeah, on the pulse as ever, but like so Question Time, British political panel show, and uh was from about 20, yeah, about 2011, and I'd seen this clip doing the rounds, which was um a guy called Peter Hitchens who's reciting a poem, and basically the power of the poem to change the atmosphere in the room. Like he just like dropped this poem lands like a sort of bomb that silences everyone because what's essentially happened up to that point is that the concept of learning by memorisation has been kind of undermined. Everyone's been saying, Oh, it's a waste of time learning things off by heart. Like you're never gonna need to know that, it's not useful, it's not practical, it's not gonna be something you use in your job, yeah. And so it's a very kind of you know utilitarian approach to education, but then when Peter Hitchens recites this poem, it just silences everyone, and everyone goes, Oh, maybe there's more going on than just what's the utility of learning, like education purely for utilitarian purposes, and we all said it, I'm sure we all said it at school when we again, when am I ever gonna need to know this? Yeah, yeah. Well, right now it's but also just it's like knowledge and understanding is is about way more than just like has it got some practical application in your day at that particular moment? Because that way, yeah, you madness lies from my point of view. But also, I just think the power of the clip is just amazing. Well, should we give it a watch?
SPEAKER_02Uh you haven't seen this before, Naomi, have you?
SPEAKER_10So it'd be interesting to get your from 2011. That's a long time ago. No, let's not answer that question. To be fair, I was memorising things for my GCSE.
SPEAKER_03It wasn't just pre-COVID, it was pre-Brexit. It was pre-London 2012 Olympics. It was.
SPEAKER_04Can the panel please recite a poem that they learnt by wrote at school and explain how this has been useful in their subsequent careers?
SPEAKER_01I would much rather we looked and said, okay, what works, what actually is effective in teaching kids mathematics, in teaching kids uh to read and write at an early age. Let's look at what's effective and put it into place. Let's not, but if it if we're gonna change this every five years as another government comes in, it's pretty depressing.
SPEAKER_00I think you know, for my kids, uh I trust the teachers uh our school in Miltonhorpe in Cumbria uh and their head teacher uh to decide the priorities for what my kids should learn rather than some buffing in Whitehall and I'm not gonna go at Gove.
SPEAKER_08Right. I think that it is not the job of politicians to meddle in the minutiae of of the curriculum. I think that it is important. I think that the league tables were important. I think that it is important for parents to be reassured that children are spending a certain amount of time a week on on the basics. But I think otherwise, you know, politicians should listen to the experts, and the experts are teachers. And we have excellent teachers out there and we should trust them.
SPEAKER_03So if we just pause it there for a second. So one of the things that's obviously going on this is that there's two levels to the conversation. One is about the nature of education and what is like what's the purpose of learning things. And then the other thing is that Michael Gove, who was the education secretary at the time, as part of a Tory government, he was saying he wants to go back to this kind of older form of learning and we're going to get kids to learn things off by heart. So half the panel time is spent saying, like Tim Farron says, like, they should keep these boffins in Whitehall outside of let's trust the teachers rather than like just focusing in on the like the memorisation thing. So there's like political point scoring which is taking place in the conversation rather than it just being about the power of learning. So that it's e it will be easy to get sidetracked into that. Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_08I mean, I think I think quite clearly, you know, Gove in the whenever it was sixties or seventies, you know, had a had a childhood that he clearly enjoyed, and he clearly enjoyed being at school. And he but you know, the I think that he looks at our modern schools and wants to kind of somehow or rather import in education that frankly is largely out of date. I don't think that learning the names of the kings and queens of England is the most important thing to learn in history. I think you need to have an understanding of why we are where we are. If you don't understand your history, you are doomed to continue to make the same mistakes. So I think you've got a lot to learn from history, not just learning the names of the kings and queens. But if you listen to Gove, that's the kind of thing that he wants because that's the sort of thing that would be done in the schools in the 50s and 60s. We have moved on since now.
SPEAKER_07The one in the front row there.
SPEAKER_09Um, I teach five-year-olds and we've been doing poetry, and they love exploring it, they love reading it, they love writing it, their own, etc. etc. Making them sit down and recite poems would just be a waste of my time and a waste of their time. And I would love Michael Gove to actually come into school and try and teach five-year-olds poetry.
SPEAKER_07Proposals that Michael Gove puts forward. You don't want me to pass this test. Um well, all right, you can spell Spell Accommodate.
SPEAKER_05Spell Accommodate. But I'll do your poem as well, because I've been asked to. What farms are those? It is the land of lost content. I see it shining plain. Those happy highways where I went and cannot come again. And I'm very pleased. I'm very pleased that my head is full of things like that and also lots of hymns which I remember, and I feel very sorry for anybody who hasn't had the chance to learn them. And I think it is a great condemnation of our school system that so few people, and particularly only those whose parents are rich, can actually afford to have their children taught things like that and have their minds furnished with beauty for the remainder of their lives. And to pour scorn on it and to say that it is it is unimportant is to declare yourself a spiritual desert. Of course, people need these things, and what's more, they're a profound part of being British. If you don't know the literature and the poetry and the music of your own country, then you aren't really fully conversant with its history or its character. You're you've lost touch with what your ancestors knew, and you won't be able to pass it on to your own children and grandchildren. Of course these things should be taught. I wish Michael Gove actually had the power and the policies to make it happen. I really do think it would be a good thing. I also think that people should not, should particularly teachers, should not say that these things don't matter. They matter immensely.
SPEAKER_10I loved that phrase. People should have their minds furnished with beauty. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03It's great. And they declare themselves to be a spiritual desert.
SPEAKER_10Spiritual, but spiritual, that's yeah. Educational. Yeah. I wish I knew the kings and queens of England by name, because I don't. Okay. And I feel ignorant when people talk about them.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Well, maybe that brings us into is there anything that you two have memorized that you'd like to share?
SPEAKER_10Oh wow. Nate, you shared a poem with us the other day.
SPEAKER_03Uh I did. In fact, it was another A Houseman poem. Oh. So A. Houseman, who's wrote the um The Land of Lost Content, which is the it's not actually called that. I can't remember what that one's called. But the one I recited the other day, which uh we'd been doing at home, we've got some cherry blossom trees outside our house. And it's the poem's called The Loveliest of Trees, and I'll see if I can remember it. Okay, so loveliest of trees, the cherry now is hung with bloom along the bow and stands about the woodland ride, wearing white for Easter tide. Now of my threescore years and ten, twenty will not come again and take from seventy springs a score, it only leaves me fifty more. And since to look at things in bloom, fifty springs is little room about the woodland, I will go to see the cherry hung with snow. And it's yeah, so I like just we were like, so I we home education educate and poetry's a big part of that, and we were doing some other memorisation and we just yeah, it was an ideal time because you've only got a ten-day window basically to go and walk in the the cherries hung with snow. So yeah, and but to to have spent time thinking about that poem, and you know, it is it's I think it's it's an interesting sentiment. You can once you've learned it, you can sit and think about it rather than needing it to be written down and all that sort of thing. Yeah. Come on, you must I mean I just actually know half of Hamilton, or if not all of it. Okay, yeah, not loads, not loads.
SPEAKER_10Well I was just remembering when I when I came to your house and I was amazed at your your kids' ability to remember things just around the dinner table, but it's because like you said, you homeschool and a lot of that is based well not just on things like poetry that I said, but I guess it your approach is that when they're young they are like sponges. Complete so let them soak it up.
SPEAKER_03Which is why when that lady says, I teach poetry for five-year-olds, and to make them sit and recite poems, I'm like, that's what five-year-olds are.
SPEAKER_11Five-year-olds love it, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's like nursery rhymes and songs, it's like being exactly as you say, complete sponges. So we want to we want to recite those things because you feel proud that you've learned it. Yeah, yeah. That's a really special thing.
SPEAKER_10Anyway, yeah, anyway, I and but I just realized in our conversation, in my conversation with your um your son, uh it came up that I knew the um oh gosh, what's it called? What's the name of the equation?
SPEAKER_03Oh, the quadratic equation.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was it. That was so funny that I didn't remember that. So go on, I knew I knew the quadratic equation still by heart because my teacher taught it to us via the happy birthday tune.
SPEAKER_03Alright, go on then. Let's show it.
SPEAKER_10It's um, oh gosh, here we go. Something like X equals minus B plus or minus the square root of B squared minus 4AC, all over 2A. It's something like that. And I mean it's not exactly furnishing my mind with beauty, but uh it was helpful at some point. And it, you know, it was nice to know. So things like songs or random equations, or actually dances. So I had done lots of dance in the past, so right now I probably don't remember them. I remember little bits from dances previously, because your body kind of has a muscle memory. Yeah. She do it and do it and do it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um we talking about the Macarena or Saturday night.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, well, I mean, there you go, that's good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you could include that, but other dances. Um ballet and contemporary and stuff.
SPEAKER_03Um also then everyone can do it at the same time because they've all learned it. Yeah, yeah. So there is a sense in which you Well, that's what performance is. Yeah.
SPEAKER_10Yeah. So, like, actually, in while I was memorising the quadratic equation for my GCSEs, I actually through my GCSEs was also spending my weekends training for London 2012 closing ceremony ballet performance.
SPEAKER_03And it was drilled in the London London 2012 ballet performance. Yeah, that's insane.
SPEAKER_10And it was the year after this drill, thrilled, drilled. It was like, yeah, Saturday, Sunday, like five or six hour rehearsals, boom, boom, boom, for like a four-hour, like a four-hour, four-minute performance. And that is that's learning, isn't it? That's memorization, but a different type.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's really interesting. I hadn't thought about that memorizing like physical movements, but of course, that makes sense. Because you're probably not going through in your head what movie you're gonna do next. It's just so you can't.
SPEAKER_10And you are sometimes, but you dance it a lot better when you're not, and you can actually put more into it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because you're not having to actually think about it because you know it. Like you know it by heart, therefore it comes out.
SPEAKER_10It's a kind of yeah, and similar to your poetry, I guess. If you you don't have to think about what word is coming next, it means you can actually think about the words.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, and it's where things like the rhythm and the the the melody, obviously, of its song, but all of that we're built is built into us to help us learn and so um yeah, the fact that A B C most people learn their alphabet, twinkle, twinkle.
SPEAKER_10So it's like Oh, it's talking about a star. Oh yeah. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_03Are you serious? You didn't know.
SPEAKER_11No, I didn't know.
SPEAKER_02Oh wow. Okay. Well, but there you go. But that's like the On this podcast, we learn still learning. Live, laugh, learn, learn, love, laugh. Love, live, love.
SPEAKER_10Uh yeah, dude. So yes. Well, I've just had a thought. I I decided one time when I was maybe twelve or something that I was going to learn the books of the Bible in order. And I've never heard a song of it, but I just came up with my own little rap. And it's served me well since. And every time you turn to I'm not gonna do it now. Every time you turn to a passage, but it's the rhythm, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03But the so yeah, the the and lots of that stuff about memorization is about like giving your attention to something. Focus on it for a significant like give it your full attention, commit yourself to it for a short period of time and the discipline, and then you like the benefit you get from it, you know, in future years is is huge. But um yeah, learn the books of the Bible in order. There's so many songs out there, that's the problem.
SPEAKER_10Well that yeah, I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_03Well, for some people they know multiple ones and so they get confused. It's like, oh okay, which one am I singing now?
SPEAKER_02So yeah, we've got a what do you know? Come on. Oh, yeah, it's on this song. Oh, um I do know all the actors who've played Doctor Who.
SPEAKER_10Oh, okay. All right, so is that something you actively memorise?
SPEAKER_02You've got this to Claire Delune. Partly, and also it's just kind of naturally absorbed as I've watched through it all. But um Do you want to go through it? Alright, yeah, so William Hartnell, Patrick Troughton, John Pertwee, Tom Baker, um, Pete Davison, um Colin Baker, Sylvester McCoy, Paul McGann, Christopher Eccleston, David Tennant, Matt Smith, Peter Capaldi, Jody Whitaker, David Tennant, Shitigawa.
SPEAKER_03Do you know what I felt like? I had this weird when you were saying that, I felt like I'd been transported back to a school assembly when our principal would stand up and he'd say the following boys need to come and see stay behind afterwards. Yeah, it was like a little race. So yeah, I only recognize a few of those, obviously.
SPEAKER_02But I think that's a bit of a random one.
SPEAKER_06Speak Life is a creative community of people who see life through the lens of Jesus. Our projects include this podcast, are supported by people like me. I'm Chris. I love all things, country and folk music. I'm from Banstead. I find it helpful how Speak Life helps me to think about our culture around us and how to best engage with it. We'd love for you to join the team. Head to speaklife.org.uk forward slash give to find out more. Now back to the conversation.
SPEAKER_02So, no, if there's bringing this into the Christian realm, the theological realm and thinking about the value of memorisation for Christians, if there is one thing that you would recommend any Christian to memorize today, if they don't know it off by heart already, what would it be?
SPEAKER_03Ooh, now you've got me. So I think well, the learn the books of the Bible in order. When I was a youth worker, I used to say to the young people in my uh youth group that if they could memorise and recite the books of the Bible in order, I would give them a five pound note. But that for any point in the future I was to meet them again and was to ask them to m recite the books of the Bible in order and they couldn't do it, they had to give me the five pounds back. Yeah, again, essentially what I've done is I've invested my money around the UK. So there are various places I can go to. If I'm short of cash, you know, if I need to buy a forgotten, I can go to their house, I can say, right, starts in Genesis, go. But um, so that one would be helpful because it means that you're getting a sense of the whole. But I genuinely think that knowing the apostles' creed by heart is incredibly powerful. And I think people are slightly surprised by that because of the way we would think. Well, scripture's the most important thing, the scriptures tells you to memorize the scriptures, like hidden your word in my heart, so my might not sin against you, but all that kind of thing. So scripture memorization, like sure, fill your boots, do the whole of Romans 8, do the whole of Philippians, do you know, memorize the whole Bible if you can, but in terms of where people are and what is probably you know what they're capable of doing, and what will give them a like almost like a quick win and a and a deep win is to memorize the apostles' creed and then because I think, yeah, what what do people actually know by heart typically apart from songs is probably the alphabet and possibly the times tables, but that's a push. So What would be a nice kind of succinct, discrete thing, which summarized the gospel, summarize what Christians believe? I think the Apostles' Creed is a great one to go to.
SPEAKER_10Okay. Go on then.
SPEAKER_03All right. Yeah. Uh shall I say Catholic or universal? We'll get there. Okay. Okay. So I believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried, he descended to the dead. I'm going to go forward then. On the third day he rose again, he ascended into heaven. He is seated at the right hand of the Father, and he will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church. You can say universal at that point. The communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.
SPEAKER_10Amen. Amen.
SPEAKER_02Now we say that every Sunday in our church now, don't we? As a congregation. Is that a creed that's familiar to you as well?
SPEAKER_10I remember so I remember actually the first time. Well, it might have not been the first time that I said it out, but I remember going to a chapel service at university, and I was like, this is so unfamiliar to me, the type of music and songs and like and standing and facing this way and then sitting down, and it was alien to me. But the bit that but I did recognise this, and we and when we said it out, and I was there like I was like, the community of saints of the goodness of saints. I was getting so excited about it in this little chap. And I was looking around and being like, wait, why are people not getting excited about these words? These words are amazing. Um so that's that's probably the first time I remember um kind of like reciting or like saying it out and think and like I don't remember saying it before then, but I must have done because I I was familiar with the words in an unfamiliar setting. Um I we uh my church doesn't say this, we say there are other prayers I'm quite familiar with. Yeah. Um but I've become more familiar with the creed through well, this little this little guy I've got with me on the table, um, E that my vision, which is like a a daily um kind of structure for prayer um which takes you through um different things each day, including a a creed, so either Apostles' Creed or Nicene Creed or a section of the Athanasian Creed, and then also things like a bit of one of the catechisms of a question and answer. Um and though though introducing that into personal devotional life has been uh helpful as well because again, the repetition, um which is a form of comedy. Well, yeah, there you go. Repetition is a form of comedy. Um but why then, Nate, why the Apostles' Creed then rather than the Nicene Creed or the Athanasian Creed, which is pretty less.
SPEAKER_03So the Apostles, I mean the Apostles' Creed's um origins are less clear than something. The Nicene Creed comes out, the Council of Nicaea in 325. And in one sense, therefore, it is a product of the theological debates that are taking place at that time. Yeah, so they've met together, and one of the big questions is whether or not whether Jesus is as divine as the Father or not, which is why the Nicene Creed says things like light from light, God from God, true God from God, God from true God, the god and not made, one being with the Father through Yeah, yeah. So it kind of it's really trying to make a point of like we need real clarity, theological clarity on exactly what we are saying about the person of Jesus Christ. Whereas the Apostles' Creed isn't isn't trying to solve that theological kind of question or address that theological error. The Apostles' Creed is just giving you as as almost as quickly as possible, like the summary of the Christian, the basics, the gist of the Christian faith. And I'm a gist guy, so I like the gist. I don't want someone to go into the detail because I'll forget the detail, but just to have the gist is really helpful. And so the Apostles' Creed is great because it just gives you those categories Father, Son, Spirit. So it's deeply Trinitarian, his main focus is on the person and work of Christ, and that middle kind of um section, I believe, in Jesus Christ, through to judge the living and the dead, that is just telling the story of Jesus. Yeah, it's just taking you through the story of Jesus.
SPEAKER_10So the reason why we're spending some time now thinking about the Apostles' Creed and not the quadratic quadratic equation is because you are enjoying, as a storyteller, thinking about the Apostles' Creed as a story and using that in your communication of the story of Jesus. Um so yeah, maybe would you want to explain a bit more about why you enjoy it so much as a as a narrative and how you've been using it?
SPEAKER_03So, in a way, so uh you don't have to store study storytelling for very long before the name Joseph Campbell comes up. And Joseph Campbell wrote a book called The Hero with the Thousand Faces, and that tells this monomyth, this hero's journey, which um is basically this kind of storytelling architecture or story structure that sits underneath lots of great myths and folk tales and all sorts of things, and that had real a real impact on George Lucas when he was starring out as a filmmaker. And so Star Wars is a kind of you know natural outworking of this hero's journey story blueprint, and so then it's worked really well in screenwriting, and people go, Oh wow, you should read this book called The Hero of the Thousand Vaces, it's so helpful in thinking about stories and how to tell them, but then it's also had massive impact for things like um psychology or psychoanalysis. So Joseph Campbell was a Jungian that he followed Carl Jung, and thinking about like human life as this kind of narrative, and we've all got to kind of do this stuff. So I'd done quite a bit of thinking about that and how that story structure seems to sort of fit with the gospel, which is the true myth, the story that's underneath everything. But then when I started to think about the way that people teach the hero's journey and seeing as this sort of story clock, and then started to realize actually, if you put the apostles' creed onto this, or if you do this using the apostles' creed, it makes so much sense.
SPEAKER_10Oh wow, okay.
SPEAKER_03Because you can get all the way around the clock with the person and work of Jesus. So you set up the clock with the work of the Father, creator of heaven and earth. You then have his only son, our Lord Jesus Christ, who is at the top as the hero, he's then gonna go off on his hero's journey, he's gonna cross the threshold as he's conceived, so on and so forth. It's getting around the six o'clock, crucified, died, and was buried, descended to the dead, and then he's gonna start his ascent, like his the exaltation of Christ is the second half of that clock from six back to twelve. And then when you've got when you've got Jesus back to the throne, Jesus is sitting on the throne. Well, what is it that he's given? He is the spirit is poured out upon him in a new way, his coronation, and then he it pours out onto the church, and that's what Paul's Peter says uh to the crowd, you know. What you're seeing here with this Holy Spirit thing, well, it's what's trickled down from heaven to earth because Jesus is ascended. So the fact that the creed then says, I believe in the Holy Spirit, starts that journey and the sending of the Spirit, and you go back around the clock again, and what happens? Well, it's not the conception of Christ that happens or the birth of Christ. Oh, yeah, okay. It's the birth of the church. So then you get the Holy Catholic or the Universal Church. You then get, well, what is this church? It is a communion of saints. Then I think there's a there could be a good question for saying, could you reorder communion of saints, forgiveness of sins? But actually, forgiveness of sins comes just before resurrection of the body. That's the bottom of the so that matches therefore up with the crucifixion, where our sins are forgiven at the cross. Yeah. And then that leads off into our resurrection follows Jesus' resurrection, seven o'clock. Resurrection of the body. And then we cross back over the threshold, nine o'clock, the life everlasting. So I do think that is a that is a much more naturally, you know, uh natural order for the these statements of the creed, even though I'm sure people might think, oh, well, you could add a bunch of other stuff in there and it would be. I think that makes so much storytelling sense to tell people that the Spirit came, he gave it was the birth of the church, and that then that communion of saints would all come to die, and in their death they would find forgiveness of sin. So they they're not destined to stay to remain in death, but would be ru have the resurrection of the body and have like everlasting.
SPEAKER_10This is so helpful, and it it might be hard to uh people have different like you know, learning styles, which I guess to do has to do with memorisation, doesn't it? But um I have quite a visual uh imagination, and so as you're speaking, I'm picturing the the little clock because I've seen you draw it. It might be hard to picture that without visuals if someone's listening, but um this is really interesting, it helps me see okay, these aren't just this is not just a list of things that you would rattle off, it is a story, but also you've then taken it and not just think this is this is not just a story, but can be visualized. I am I'm finding that actually really quite helpful as you talk about that, and I've never noticed that that yeah, okay, the the journey of Jesus that is described is then the same journey that the church um you know filled with the Holy Spirit like tracks through as well. And obviously, I know that I know that um I know that is the case, but I don't think I've seen it in the Apostles' Creed before, which is quite cool. Um there are some little details about the Apostle Creed I have questions about. Would you like to go into them? Yeah or no?
SPEAKER_03Uh we can do. I will presume you like not to answer them. Yeah, so you can answer them. Oh, I don't know.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, so I was going to ask you this morning. I was thinking, okay, I'm gonna ask Nate, why did it say you descended to hell? Because there are different views on that, yeah, and it's not explicit in scripture. There is some evidence towards it, but um I was like, you know, this is what I was saying about pulling out my reference books. I was like, oh hang on. I think Grudom doesn't agree with descended to the hell. Let me have a look at that. Oh, but Calvin does, I think. Let me have a look. What did Calvin say? And I was having a little look. But you then, as you recited it just now, said descended to the dead.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_10Is that intentional?
SPEAKER_03Like, why I think I think that so part of the challenge with hell is that you know the it's like the the question about the Catholic Church, which yeah, well that's the other bit I've underlined Hell and Catholic Church. When people think Catholic, they probably think Roman Catholic. Yeah. That's the typical way in which we use it. And so the word Catholic there, even though the word actually means universal, it means the church that is, you know, one uh one great unified church, is that it can be a little bit awkward for people if you say so sometimes people will change it to universal rather than Catholic.
SPEAKER_11Okay.
SPEAKER_03Just to avoid that. And again, the question of hell, whilst I while hell, I think, is uh a probably a better version of what the original creed would have taught about. And I should say at this point, for anyone who's like, what about the Bible? What about the scriptures? I don't believe that the creed is on the same level as the scriptures, yeah, right? So it's not inspired in the same way, yeah. It's not authoritative in the same way. But if ch history is any source of kind of theological education or of wisdom, then going to those early statements and thinking about what do they actually mean in those is kind of useful. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_10So yes, there's so because you said the Nicene Creed was from 325. 325, yeah. But um when was the Apostles' Creed come?
SPEAKER_03So that's the thing, big its origin is shrouded in mystery. Or just they've just got early versions of it. Okay, okay. The um there is a really nice one which is because it's basically twelve statements, you can cut it into twelve, which I think it kind of works for the clock thing. Yeah. That each of the twelve apostles, disciples, whatever came up with them. Came up with one. Which I I mean people think about. So collaborative absolute nonsense at the moment. Yeah, but it sounds really good. I like the idea. Yeah, yeah. It's like um, yeah, Thomas, what have you gone for? Um, yeah, I I've I've been given the challenge. Like, how do you sum up like the incarnation?
SPEAKER_09Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03He's gonna go with conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. Oh, nice, like what you said. Yeah, great, okay.
SPEAKER_10So then the names of other people in the creed, like if you were gonna pick, I don't know, what are some main names of other people to include in our explanation of the story of Jesus or the story of God and his people, or however you want to describe, then is it obvious that m Mary and Pilate are in there?
SPEAKER_03I think Mary's pretty obvious, right? Mary would be like, you know, you know, Mary had a little lamb, you know, and everywhere that Mary went, the lamb was sure to go, right?
SPEAKER_10Sorry, wait, wait, wait. That you're not telling me that nursery rhyme is about this, Mary. What are you talking about? I'm sure it is.
unknownWhat?
SPEAKER_03Mary had a little lamb. And the lamb is Jesus. The lamb was white as snow.
SPEAKER_10Okay. His feast was white as snow. His feast was white as snow.
SPEAKER_03And everywhere that Mary went, the lamb was sure to go.
SPEAKER_10How does it continue? I don't know. I think that's it. That's it. Oh, right, okay. Oh, okay, maybe.
SPEAKER_03I don't actually know the origin of Mary had a little lamb, but it does not. I'm learning so much about our nursery rhymes today. Profoundly Christian.
SPEAKER_10Okay, yeah. Well, anyway. So and you you've got social science at the moment, yeah.
SPEAKER_03But you've been enjoying thinking a bit about um Pontius Pilate in one of your little uh So the Pontius Pilate thing, people can go onto Instagram if they need to waste their time, and they can find a reform pathologist and they'll find a skit about Pontius Pilate discovering that he's in the lead. What I genuinely am so thrilled about, and this would like blew my mind when I first read it. Dorothy Sayers, uh, who was like friend with Lewis and Tolkit, she wrote a play called The Man Who Would Be King, and it's basically like a radio play of telling the story of Jesus' life and death and resurrection, right? And it's really, really cool. And there is a scene that she's written into this um play in which Pilate has a conversation with his wife, and his wife, we know from the Bible, has this dream that warns her about and you know, have nothing to do with this man. But Dorothy says in this, and I think this is based upon some sort of you know um sort of stories around in church history, but she tells you well, or her version of Pontius Pilate's wife tells the audience what her dream was. Oh, and her dream is that she looked, and before her, she saw people from every tribe and tongue and nation, multitudes upon multitudes from all throughout history, all saying, I get choked up on this, suffered under Pontius Pilate, suffered under Pontius Pilate. I was like, oh my goodness me. Because what like God is governing history, God, you know, like he didn't write the creed in the same way that he wrote scripture, right? The creed is not God breathed in the same way that the holy scriptures are God breathed, but somehow it has worked out for the past 2,000 years of history that Pontius Pilate has been the most famous human being, possibly, you know, his name has been recited by people in every tribe and language. Um maybe not everyone, but he's so well known, yeah. I'm like, that is so cool. That's stunning. That anyway, so that scene I'll we go on to that, but the point is the Pontius Pilate's reference. Lewis talks about this in myth became fact when he says that the Pontius Pilate reference is um to ground the myth of the rise dying and rising God in history. Okay, yeah, Jesus' life, death, resurrection happens at a particular point in human history, and here is a definable historical figure called Pontius Pilate. It really, really happened. This is all not all just taking place once upon a time or you know, in in dream time or whatever it will be. It's real history and it's the real story.
SPEAKER_10Because I I don't think I can't visualize or put a date on or a location or whatever to like Jesus being seated at the right hand of the Father, like it's quite an app it feels abstract even though it's real. But I but we can know in detail at this time at this particular location written into history, he suffered under Pontius Pilate. And so but to put them in the same sentence. Yeah. Okay. Next sentence. Um, I see what you mean.
SPEAKER_03Isn't trying to validate answering the descended to hell thing. I did successfully avoid answering that question. Uh well done.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, well no, no, you answer what you've said is holy Catholic Church, you could say holy uh universal church, yeah, and perhaps by saying descended to the dead, yeah, that is uh like a modification and an alternative version to saying he descended to hell. He's in the realm, he goes into the realm of the realm of the yeah, and he experiences um he take he he experiences the fullness of God's wrath that we would have had on the cross. Okay. And so and so by saying he has experienced h hell in some way, we're trying to say.
SPEAKER_03So so this is where so I think Calvin tries to argue that he is exp his descent into hell um is happening on the cross.
SPEAKER_10Yes, yeah. I think it does.
SPEAKER_03My question is why does the creed, if every uh everything else is in chronological order, suffered?
SPEAKER_10Oh yeah, crucified was crucified, died, died and was buried, descended to why is that in chronicle order?
SPEAKER_03Because you would expect then if the focus is on his experience on the cross, then it would be suffered, was crucified, descended to hell, died.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Or died and died, descended to hell. Hell buried. Yes. So I think because you get into real like suddenly the time frame gets much slower. Right? So conceived by the Holy Spirit happens nine months before Born of the Virgin Mary. Next one, 33 years softened under Pontius Pilate. Was crucified, died, and was buried, is happening in one afternoon.
SPEAKER_11Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And then descended the dead, raised again three days later. So the the time scales between each of the statements are very different, but their significance theologically is obviously profound. And we see that in the obviously they spend a lot more time thinking about the last week of Jesus' life than than other parts of his life, because he has come to die. That's the purpose of him coming. But I so I I think there's a question to I want to put to Calvin, which is why did the creed put it in that order if we're not supposed to understand it as Christ's kind of um He's gone to shale, like the realm of the dead. And and the and the question there is like, is he harrowing hell? Is he like going in there and like grut dragging all these other people? I think there is preaching to died. Sometimes that's taken to the he's going and he's preaching and the triumph of Christ and him bringing the people is happening there. I think. I mean, again, it's it's one of these things where you can get into the wheat on the internet. And I do want to do more work on it because I do think it's helpful. But I think the the big thing is that yes, this narrative, this story, this summary of the Christian faith is really good to learn off by heart. And then you can have those debates. You can have that discussion about should we say Catholic or universal? Yeah, should we say? Well, if you're enjoying this, maybe you'd like to meet us in person. Well, you have an opportunity in June, from the 18th to the 20th of June, we'll be meeting here in Eastbourne at our Speak Life studios. You'll have a chance to meet the team, learn the craft, and catch the vision for speaking life. The focus of this next intensive that's coming up in June in 2026 is about the hero's creed that we've been talking about on this episode. And so if you want to get into more of that, you want to find out how to draw the diagram for yourself, well, that's the opportunity for you. I'll be there with Thomas Thorogood, with Glenn Scrivener, with Gnomes Brem, and maybe even mythologist Martin Shaw. Whoa, he's quite big, isn't he? He's very big. Huge! Yeah, but I don't know if he has. He's got a big beard and he also wears a hat. But anyway, so we'll be chatting about how you tell the story and teach the faith. That is June the 18th to the 20th, 2026, here in Eastbourne. Go to the website for more details.
SPEAKER_02Brilliant, so we thought about. Things we have memorized, you're saying it it's valuable for Christians to know the creed, the Apostles' Creed, off by heart, and I think you made a good case for that. Now we're gonna get practical. How? How do we memorize things? How uh anything that you guys have done to kind of embed tips and tricks, either the quadratic equation or parts of the thing.
SPEAKER_10Well, true, yeah, putting things to rhymes or rhythms is really helpful. I um well, I don't know the apostles creep by heart, but I probably just need to say it out a few more times. But I I in terms of memorising I believe in God the Father. But then I want to say the Lord and Giver of Life, and that's a different thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well that's you've got to pick it quickly. Is that a nice is that the nice It's like when you change Bible versions.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, well, yes, that that's true. A couple times in my life I've memorized big chunks of scripture, specifically the same big chunk, which is the wonderful book of Ephesians. Um and one time it was for Lent, I d divided it up and I knew, okay, it's if the number of verses it is, that would be four verses a day. So I was then like putting it to a bit of movement in my room or like saying it out loads and loads and loads, going for walks, saying it, and then the next day add on for four verses, and the next day add on four verses and go back through it. So it's kind of like that was like a concerted effort of like bit by bit. Um but you lose it straight away. Well, I mean, Ephesians 1 has kind of stayed in my head because I said it over and over as I was adding on bits, but you like it's the repetition of it and the for me walking and talking is helpful. Or um yeah, I then was like reciting that while I was doing lots and lots of training for the London Marathon, which Nate has also done and found it help a helpful like use of time actually. So thinking it's not just how do you memorize things, but what are the what are the other alternative other like potential dead time where I might be doing something else, listening to something else that I can actually use memorizing stuff.
SPEAKER_02That's how I've found whenever I've tried to memorize things, I have paced back and forth. Yeah, and something about the movement. Yeah. Just as uh I don't want to make this controversial, but this was really interesting. Someone I met at Hutchmoot, who is a which is a Christian creative conference that we've been to a couple of times. Um he went to a a scripture by heart course, and he said they weren't allowed to use the word memorize there. Oh which I found really interesting because they didn't want to turn it into a kind of technical, it's about getting it information into your head. That's interesting. So he said the way they did it was they just read it again and again and just really ask, oh, so what is the link between this verse and this verse? And what was the scene there? And you just spend so much time in the text and thinking about the details that he said eventually they just they just did know it by heart. Yeah. I was like, that's really interesting. Because I wonder if scripture by heart or or get taking something into the heart is is is maybe a a more fully orbed way of putting it rather than just we're trying to get some words to stick. But that's true. I think that's what you mean when you're talking about that.
SPEAKER_10And like you know, from my you know, physics and flashcards and stuff, I am a he I I I'm quite self-disciplined, I'm quite a like a a memory person. I genuinely think I only did well in exams because I have a good memory. But that doesn't mean that things filter down to my heart. But you're saying that actually the reason why we should memorise any of this stuff is so that it is hidden we might we have hidden it in our hearts.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I I do think that is an interesting question about whether you should call it memorization or not. I I'm sure they've got more argumentation for why they don't like to use that word heart memory. Yeah. Um I yeah, so we talked about we've mentioned uh catechesis. Um so the idea that you just learn a series of questions and answers by heart, and that you just recite them, and that's how you get a really like a good theology if you kind of you know learn because you're gonna have a theology, the question is which one is it gonna be? And you're gonna you are gonna learn things by heart, but are they just gonna be the jingles from radio adverts or songs from musicals or like you because we are wired that way, we're we're kind of wired horrible way of saying it, because we're not machines, but we have been created with these rhythms and this kind of this this humanity which responds to you know um the things we give our attention to and that the existence of things like music and a meter and all that kind of stuff and and spoken language is very important, which is why I do think that saying out loud and it being a physical expression because you need to you almost need to have the words take shape and in your mouth and you need to hear them because language is spoken before it's written. So it's like that's the way that we pick up language is that it's an audible thing. So you need to let the noise of it, the noise of the words go around, yeah, yeah. Hear yourself saying them because part of the beauty of poetry or the beauty of scripture or the beauty of the creeds or whatever it is is that the people have been really careful of the words that they've used.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03They've really thought about this because they're trying to express something in a which might take forever to express, they're trying to say it in a way that is is clear and precise and and powerful, and so the the exact order of the words can matter, which is why I think once people really get into it, they're like, Oh, you've got to memorize it in the original languages.
SPEAKER_10Oh wow, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Because because the original languages have been written, so the work of translation then becomes really hard because like okay, you've got to take from this language, which is using these poetic forms and these vowel sounds and this these consonant noises that you're gonna hear repeated, and then you've got to put it into another one and somehow manage to express it in a way that's both you know powerful, true, beautiful, all that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_10Yeah. I mean, even when you've memorized a verse or something in one translation translation of the Bible, and then you hear it in another translation, and you're like, oh wait, that feels really different and alien. Yeah, yeah. Specifically, though, yeah, some practical tools for memorization or for you know hiding in your heart. So you're saying it out, we've said saying it out loud, walking around, walking around, talking, um, singing it, having things.
SPEAKER_03You can also put your feet to the fire yourself and set yourself a performance deadline.
SPEAKER_10Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, deadlines. That's true. Yeah, deadlines.
SPEAKER_03Because half the reason why you learn I mean, there is learning stuff, there's cramming before an exam, kind of thing. Yeah, no, you're right. That's one of so I did a lot of theatre growing up. My daughter does a lot of theatre now, she so she has to make learn a lot of lines. And the the performance date is is one of those things. You're like, I I kind of want to know so that is a kind of external discipline that comes upon you to help you do that. Now, I don't think you should be like, you know, it should it should probably be like carrot than stick in terms of this.
SPEAKER_10No, but that is helpful because I've done things if I'm gonna if I'm gonna like speak on a Bible passage, I want to know the Bible passage by heart. So I that's my deadline is like I'm gonna memorize this, unless it's like that like too long and I'm not gonna have time or something. But like even in that case, if someone was preparing to preach a sermon at their church or something, like that's a that's a good opportunity for a deadline for some memorization.
SPEAKER_03Or yeah, and there's part I think there's there's something about just the the playing around with it, right? That you need to be in a kind of playful mode. So accents, doing stupid voices, oh that's a fun idea. I used to do that whenever I did a lot of reading to do, I'd read each paragraph in a different accent. Um memorizing things, yeah. Because then you get because of what is an accent, but it's just making vowel sounds in a different way, or like choosing a different vowel noise to express the same letter is how accents work. So then Okay, okay, so when you then because of that, what because you can't read an accent, you can only hear an accent.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Because they're just saying the same word in a slightly different way. So if you learn it in a silly voice or an accent, then it can it can work.
SPEAKER_10Okay, so songs, rhythms, walking, talking out loud, saying it in accents, giving yourself a deadline. I think that's really helpful. Yeah, giving yourself a deadline.
SPEAKER_03We should mention John Redeemed as well. John Redeemed is a guy who does scripture memorization and he's done it with psalms and revelation and stuff. Now that is like that's cool, slightly glorious. It's probably a subtitle.
SPEAKER_10So what what is there something if someone just does performances? If someone types into Google, John Redeemed John Redeemed, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Is uh Revelation or Psalms or something? I'm sure they'd be able to find it. But he, yeah, it's like a tour to force, and it's so powerful when he he does it as a as a performance.
SPEAKER_10Is he giving tools for memorising or is it just performance?
SPEAKER_03I've not heard him actually talk through the tools very like as much, but it just I think he's got an app or something. He's probably got an app. Yeah, maybe there are people probably screaming at this podcast now going, you don't know what this is, but anyway, you find it, you'll find it. But it's it's really powerful. But the question is, does it just feel a bit too intimidating? And so I well, I'd say, you know, start with start nice and small, play around with the verses, say in a funny accent.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, nice.
SPEAKER_02Well, speaking of intimidating, um actually I don't know why this is a segue, but mate, this is your last day in the Speak Life office. It is that's a big moment. It is how are you feeling?
SPEAKER_03I don't know if I'm feeling intimidated. Well, yeah, it's been a it's been a wild ride, five years. 1921 I first came to Speak Life, and um yeah, I've been involved in lots of different things that we've done, and I'm very, very proud of them. And yeah, it's just been a yeah, brilliant opportunity to to talk about Jesus and to yeah, you know, but really it's the friends I've made along the way, I think we have to say that's the real treasure, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think people, listeners of the Speak Live Podcast, have been incredibly blessed by your insights, especially the storytelling perspective you've often brought to these episodes, and then obviously on the Reform Mythologist channel and this Heroes Creed stuff that you've been majoring on. We've got the poster behind us, and you're gonna be continuing that work uh to a large degree as you move on. Um, so if people want to stay in the loop with that, yeah, what can they do?
SPEAKER_03So the best place to go, sorry, is heroescreed.com and they can sign up there. Um I will probably move that over at some point because it's currently on the Speak Live website, so we'll have to kind of work through um the administration of that. But uh if you can follow me on the gram, you know, um Instagram or the Cube. The YouTube. So um, you know, do either of those or just yeah.
SPEAKER_10Reform at Reformed Mythologists.
SPEAKER_03Reform Mythologist, or you can yeah, you'll find me about around and about. I might be in your local Aldi. Hiding behind that middle shelf. Or is that little? I never know which one.
SPEAKER_10Little middle, they're both, both, I think.
SPEAKER_02We'll definitely be tuning in for that. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_10Naomi, do we have any uh mail from Let's Well, yeah, we um we had a couple of little things. Um thank you to um Bo. I think you might call it B-E-A-E. Oh that's a nice name, isn't it? It's lovely. Bo, who's commenting on our um Spotify. Did you know you can comment on Spotify? We would love to receive that. Hello. Um who has asked what version of the Bible we predominantly use? Which is interesting because we have talked a little bit about translation today.
SPEAKER_03NIV 1984.
SPEAKER_10Oh wow, okay, great. Mine's at ESV.
SPEAKER_03But I'm frustrated because you can't get hold of it anymore. So I have to yeah. Okay. So it got updated 2011. But yeah, NIV.
SPEAKER_10NIV. Nice. What about you, Thomas?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm gem generally an NIV boy.
SPEAKER_10Niv lad.
SPEAKER_02But I do enjoy dipping into the ESV and the King James version. Oh, do you? Oh, that's fun.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, that's fun. Yeah, yeah, I I mostly use ESC just because um this Bible, I know where the things are on the page.
SPEAKER_11Yeah.
SPEAKER_10So I I've got I got an NIV and I've I've used it quite a lot, but it's uh it's so helpful knowing where things are.
SPEAKER_03Do you know what? Uh I've uh don't think it's exclusive to Wes Hoff, but Weshoff, I've heard him say the best Bible version is the one you're going to read.
SPEAKER_10Yeah. Great answer. Yeah. So there you go. There's our response. Well, in terms of what we personally keep your comments and questions coming in, YouTube, Spotify Comments, podcast at speaklife.org.uk. We'd love to hear from you. And we'll have a chance to respond to some of them on Monday, the 27th, 27th of April, 2026, in a YouTube live stream with myself and Thomas and Glenn. Um, but for now, Nate, thank you so much. Have a little, a little thank you. Are you ready? I feel like you can guess what this would be.
SPEAKER_02I don't know what's happening now. I'm so intrigued. She's gone. She's gone.
SPEAKER_03She's looking behind a little thing.
SPEAKER_02Hi, Nate. Should we do a podcast? Oh, she's back. Hey!
SPEAKER_10I have some heroes. She's cavries, heroes. Cavries heroes, otherwise known as the heroes greed. Oh, very good. There you go, Nate. It looks like it's open. I brought it. It was like that in Tesco. I did complain, but it was the last one on the shelf and I knew I had to get it.
SPEAKER_03So have you stolen all the whispers? Is that what you've done? Has the tapas here been broken? Just for those who want audio only. I'm just I'm reaching in now. What's your favourite? I'm not gonna do an ASMR type thing. I'm gonna go. I do like a f there's a fudge in this one. I do have a little cheeky fudge. Oh, great. So I'm gonna go for it.
SPEAKER_10There you go. Well, enjoy.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_10Uh we'll see you next time.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, brother. It's been a pleasure. All the best with everything. We'll we'll be praying.
SPEAKER_10Yeah. Love it! See you next time on Speed Life Podcast.