SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Speak Life Podcast. My name is Thomas Thurrogood, Media Producer at Speak Life. And today we have a bit of a different episode. This is a live stream that we did to celebrate 100,000 subscribers on the YouTube channel. Myself and Naomi Brahm joined Glenn Scrivener to talk to him about the history of the channel, and we were joined by lots of people tuning into the live stream, putting in their questions. The full thing is, of course, on YouTube. It's about an hour and a half long. There were lots of fun segments. It was all very spontaneous. But for this episode of the podcast, I just want to show you two segments of the conversation. In this first segment, you're going to hear from Marty, who joined us on the call, and he's been following the Speak Live channel for some time, and it was actually part of his journey to faith. So it was absolutely fantastic to meet him on the call and to hear his story. We're then going to pivot to a later segment in the conversation where Naomi pushed Glenn and myself kind of on the ethics of YouTube and doing YouTube ministry as Christians, the challenges that can come with that, but also the potential opportunities when it is done right. And that's something we're constantly, I suppose, wrestling with and asking questions about. So without further ado, over to Marty and his story.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Hi there guys, nice to see you.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

Yeah, you too. Where are you zooming in from or whatever we're calling it?

SPEAKER_00 1:28

I'm zooming in from Romford, East London.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

Oh see, I we we had bets on where you were from. I think some some people thought the the the name Marty might have been American. I I thought Northern Irish, because like Marty. Marty every other man in Northern Ireland's called Marty. Did you have any Northern Irish background?

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Uh no. My um I think it's my name spelt with a Y normally, and everyone used to misspell it as Martin with an I, so it's the easy short on it.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

There we go.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

But uh yeah, so nothing exciting there, but I did used to live in live in Sussex, which obviously we're very familiar with. Hey. Oh yeah, whereabouts in Sussex? Uh Crawley.

SPEAKER_03 2:09

Crawley, yeah. Just up the Everyone from Crawley comes down to Eastbourne to to get the seafront, don't they? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

It's the Gold Coast, as you know.

SPEAKER_03 2:17

That's right. Yeah, the Sunshine Coast, or the Unshine Coast was my Australian family. Unshine Coast. Uh that's good. It's pretty cool. But uh so people who uh comment on our videos, they might know you better as Hear God's Word. Uh so tell us about the story about how you went from being Marty to being Hear God's Word.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Oh, I trying to bore you too much. Uh it kind of all s all started really because uh a friend of mine was sharing some videos on Facebook, the Reading Between the Lines ones. Uh there you go. And I kept seeing them, didn't click on them, but then one day one of them resonated and I clicked on it. I think I was curious where this phrase was connected to the Bible, really. Huh. Um interesting, then binge watched the whole series of videos. Huh. Uh only to find out then that there's actually these nice helpful books that you can also as well. We did not know.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

We're very glad that he did. He had them already and everything.

SPEAKER_06 3:19

That was no my vicar very often promotes them. And I was like, I ha I promise I haven't I haven't done any sneaky deals here. But yeah, very, very helpful for that.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Yeah, I think that you were just one of many voices helped me on the on the way. Um, I was kind of attending church, not really a Christian though, just kind of feeling my way in. It feels like I was a few years ahead of the quiet revival, really, uh, in that respect. Um yeah, the videos were really helpful, and then looking at some other stuff you were doing. So tuning in each week to the live cast with you and Paul Feasy was interesting as well.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

Yeah, the speakeasy, the speak feezy.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Yeah, that was great. I think what helped was just two normal guys just chatting. And uh I think no, seeing things through that Christian lens was kind of helpful to see it's not so strange, and then uh ended up doing a Christian explore course. Very good. And uh and that was uh I think the final the final piece to jigsaw, really. That's so cool.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

And did I did I read a comment right that's um you kind of watched the the Matt Dillahunty Glenn Scrivener showdown clash back in 2020? And you were sort of you sort of were you were you still where were you spiritually speaking in 2020?

SPEAKER_00 4:38

I was pretty close. I was on the way. I think it was just a few difficult hold hand over the keys of your life over from yourself being your own god to handing them over to Jesus, and that was the the hard decision. I needed a bit of prompting, really. Um but listen to that was really interesting, just how you made Christianity just seem so uh reasonable and normal in a way, and it resonated with a lot of things you were saying, thinking, well, I kind of agree a lot with what he's saying, so I kind of think I'm more or less there.

SPEAKER_03 5:13

Oh praise God for that. I was I I did a debate, as you probably know, uh with Stephen Woodford about two months ago, and I was just I like the the reason why I did it was like stories like like this, because it was a room full of atheists, but there were about six people afterwards. Well, there were more than six people who came up to me afterwards and started saying I was expecting to be on the other guy's side, but I found myself agreeing with you, and that's disturbing me. What should I do? I got I got rid of six six books like straight away, like in the first kind of half hour after the debate, um, there were people in that kind of position. So who says debates are a waste of time, hey?

SPEAKER_01 5:53

It is funny, isn't it, how you you read the comment sections of these debates, your Dillahunty one and your Wood for one, you come up you'd come away with a certain type of impression scrivener destroyed of how it went down. But actually, when you talk to individuals like Marty and others who have watched it, um can have quite an impact potentially.

SPEAKER_05 6:12

If a debate doesn't have someone gets destroyed, like would someone watch it? Like is that is that why things might be like painted like someone definitely won, even if it's a bit more nuanced than that.

SPEAKER_03 6:25

I really have liked the turn that Justin Briley's kind of interviews, like when he was still doing unbelievable, it was more it was more interesting when two people you would expect to disagree agree than having two people who you're expecting to have a ding dong having a ding dong. But so a ding-dong battle. It's Australia.

SPEAKER_04 6:42

Anyway, Australian.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

Thanks for saving me there. But uh, but yeah, and and he's done the same thing with uncommon ground, like wanting to get people to kind of kind of agree. What what kind of other YouTube channels do you watch, Marty?

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Uh I suppose you say reform mythologists, shouldn't I really? Yeah, uh I was uh actually on the um TGC YouTube channel earlier where they're interview with someone called Glenn Scrivener. That's true.

SPEAKER_04 7:12

TGC they they do sometimes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Um that's the main ones. Um John Piper uh listened to quite a bit outside of my church setting. Um but yes, there's there's lots of what out there, and it's sometimes hard to work out what's worth listening to and what isn't. It really is.

SPEAKER_03 7:30

You know, and John John Piper had a part to play in this channel, actually, because when he first saw our orange 321 video, it was really like him, he he really championed it and he sort of tweeted it out and it and it went it it went our equivalent of viral back in the day because of because John Piper liked it. So yeah. I was able to I was able to thank him. It was an embarrassing moment. I saw I saw him like at a church and and I I said to him words that I'm still embarrassed about. I said, I'm your biggest fan. Which is embarrassing to say to any like Christian celebrity, but to say to John Piper is just like Oh, and that really was in person, so I'm that was in person questioning.

SPEAKER_05 8:13

When you're when you are you actually are like breathing the same air and physically. And you find out how tall they are.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Yes. Yes. How tall are you, Marty? Uh about five four.

SPEAKER_05 8:27

So five four. Still not in person, still not in.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you'd never you'd never know that Thomas is actually five one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 8:34

I mean, it just the way by the amount of leg that's uh Should we uh stand next to each other again?

unknown 8:46

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

But it's good you mentioned three, two, one. I've just finished doing that at work, actually.

SPEAKER_03 8:51

Oh, you're doing at work at work. How does that how does that work? Do you just do one video with the guys?

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Yeah, so it's one one video a week in the lunchtime. So we did uh over over eight weeks that way.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

And there was a mixture, I think 50-50 between people already Christians and people who are curious. I love that. Was that your idea or somebody else had the idea? Uh it was my idea. Well, partly my idea. I said to a pastor at church, I'll look and do something evangelistic at church. Oh, for work rather, and I couldn't work out what what to do. And he's like, Well, you 3 to 1, obviously. Yeah, actually, yeah, it is obvious. Um, so we had some really good conversations. I don't think anyone's had a dramatic conversion as a result, but I think people found it really helpful just to listen to the stuff that you uh you say in the videos. Oh, that's so good.

SPEAKER_03 9:38

Yeah. We we hadn't thought about it being used in sort of Christian union settings, but yeah, lots of school students are using it in Christian union settings and and different workplaces. I guess there's something easy about kind of you hit play on the on the laptop or whatever, and and it kind of leads you through in that sense.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Yeah, and I think doing it that way, can fit into a half an hour, people can have that in their lunch break. Yeah, it's made it quite accessible, and I think the videos are quite self-explanatory, but they do definitely generate a lot of conversation afterwards as well. Yeah. Um, which often gives opportunities to take things away and then connect with them at a later, later point. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 10:16

And then they can be kind of connected to the Discord server, and so if people don't know about the Discord server, it's a sort of chat community where some people might even be watching it from now. Maybe, maybe the they've clicked on the YouTube link from Discord or something like that. So uh are you on Discord as well, Marty?

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Uh I'm not actually, but uh I'm probably we'll be we'll be soon. I'm signing up after this.

SPEAKER_03 10:41

Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Interesting here from Apologetics England debates are for the listeners, not the opposite debate. And uh I think that's a good point. Very rarely does a debate change one of the debatees' minds, but the people sitting in on it do get a sense of what the positions are on actually, oh maybe that opposite position isn't as crazy as I first thought. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:07

It also though, now, and perhaps this is just from behind the scenes observing your conversation that turned into a debate with Alex O'Connor. Um seeing that actually there's there's as debaters, you have that on your mind that that you're kind of saying things to be heard by the listeners, not the other person. But but now there's the added dimension of every little thing you say could be cut out and put into a reel that goes viral. And so, and there's that funny dimension as well of um someone might the listeners now are not just listening to the whole thing, yeah, but each little thing you say and might be taken out of the way. Not even. They're not even. Oh no, no one's who's listening to the whole thing.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

Yeah, yeah. So they're I mean, in in how long was that debate? Was two and a half hours? Two and a half hours. In two and a half hours, you're definitely going to say something really stupid for at least 90 seconds. It's gonna be 90 seconds of utter idiocy out of yeah, at least one week.

SPEAKER_05 12:05

And maybe are the only people that had to who sat through the whole thing in one go without even a toilet break. Other than those who were doing it, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_06 12:17

It's like that was full on two and a half hours without even taking like a sip of water.

SPEAKER_03 12:23

That was that was funnily enough, I was so dehydrated. I was yeah, I was the opposite, really, in that in that whole thing. But I I think I I had experience of going to Speaker's Corner back in back in the 2000s. You'd go kind of every Sunday and you'd meet usually like an Imam or something, and and like Islam has always had a had a big presence as uh as well as Christian apologists at Speaker's Corner. And you would always you'd be talking to the Imam, but you'd really be addressing the ones who are hanging off his coattails, and they've never seen this guy take a wrong wrong step. Like they've they've never seen their guy tumble over his words or or or get something wrong, and all of a sudden you're sort of sowing seeds of doubt in them. I think the only debate I've seen that's that's really changed the debate was Wes Huff versus Billy Carson. Um not that Billy Carson then came to the Lord, um, but the rug was pulled from under him in a in a quite extraordinary way, I think.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

So, Marty, where do you work? Uh I well, I work from home, luckily, which makes stuff a lot easier for listening to stuff, but um otherwise I'm gauge working in pensions, so a bit a bit different that way. Very good. Um but it does uh try and kind of make connections there where I can. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:39

So you're doing 321 online in your lunch breaks.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:44

Good on you. Isn't that cool? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

I must admit, I've also uh quite often amongst my non-Christian groups shared some of the more humorous videos, the phones with Bibles and the Pearls of Team Making, for example. Yes, they were quite good at just opening up things to non-Christians.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Yeah, those skits you used to do upstairs in the kitchen.

SPEAKER_03 14:05

Skits were fun. Great Marty, thank you so much, Marty. We will uh we will let you get on into the comment section and do what you do absolutely best. Uh encourage people in the comments, but we're yeah, we're so grateful for your for your support. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

No, let's keep doing what you're doing, and it's yeah, great to be able to be part of this tonight.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Amazing stuff. Thank you so much, Marty, for sharing that story and joining us on the call. And we're now going to pivot to that later segment in the conversation. Naomi asking Glenn and myself about YouTube and some of her concerns around that, Christians being on YouTube. But uh yeah, I think it's it's an interesting conversation. I'm hoping it might uh help some of you guys who are uh thinking some of these issues through. And if you'd like to get in touch to share perhaps how the Speak Life channel has impacted you or whether you have any reflections on doing YouTube as Christians, feel free to get in touch. Our email is podcast at speaklife.org.uk. That's podcast at speaklife.org.uk. Or you can leave a comment on Spotify if that's where you'd listen. Anyway, over to this second part of the conversation, the ethics of YouTube. We did a joke idea for a video a while back. Can I share this sort of uh Glenn tries mushrooms? And then it's actually just like him eating button mushrooms, like strong.

SPEAKER_05 15:38

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you should do it.

SPEAKER_03 15:40

Glenn tries mushrooms, the ultimate clickbait.

SPEAKER_05 15:42

Yeah, I was about to say if you ever tried to persuade me that you don't do clickbait and then you did that video, I'd be like.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

Okay. Yeah, we have fishes of men here. We need bait.

SPEAKER_06 15:54

We need bait. Is that how it works?

SPEAKER_03 15:58

Is that what you're doing?

SPEAKER_05 16:04

To what extent can you put fishes of men, like and use that analogy to be like it's okay to bait?

SPEAKER_03 16:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:11

Like what does that mean?

SPEAKER_03 16:13

Well, what do people mean by I mean clickbait, the phrase clickbait is in the eye of the beholder. Like every newspaper headline wants to get you to read the article.

SPEAKER_05 16:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:23

And so we'll promise something. And maybe at times it might overpromise. And and maybe you bring a certain framing to the headline that makes you think you're getting one thing and you get something else. I think clickbait I guess I mean the difference between clickbait and rage bait is clickbait is um promising content that it's not going to deliver on. I guess rage bait is just like turning up the temperature on the conversation and just unnecessarily injecting cortisol into the whole system.

SPEAKER_05 16:53

Okay, so you're saying so clickbait is when it's not just it it's it's dishonest. It it's not just like you want to click on it, it's you click on it and then it's not what you what you advertised.

SPEAKER_03 17:06

I mean, like who who would actually write an article and not give it a an appetizing a good type of yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Yeah, so I I guess an example of a genuinely deceptive framing for a video would be to call it something like we prank called the US president. Now, if the video isn't actually that, unless it's like a really funny skit or somehow kind of subverts that expectation, people are going to feel so kind of shortchanged by that that they'll get very angry and comment. But I feel like if the video does actually deliver on the framing, even if the framing is quite intriguing, but there will be multiple things, multiple reasons why you might want to watch a video.

SPEAKER_05 17:47

And so I guess what you're doing is guessing what the most likely one it might be type thing, as um I mean but the thing is you get this in physical form when it comes to like churches putting on a curry night, and then it turns out oh I turned up for a curry night and they're actually gonna talk at me for 20 minutes about Jesus. Like if you advertise a thing that might be the reason someone comes, but it's not actually the core of what you want to offer them, maybe that is a clickbaity thing. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 18:19

Apologetics England has made an excellent point. The the stream's title mentioned Cosmic Skeptic first time I saw it.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Oh no, yeah, I'm sorry about that. Basically, um I I accept full responsibility for that. Um that's just human error. Let's just find an error. I copied the title from one of Alex's videos just because I wanted to see how other people title their live streams, and then I forgot to change the actual name of the channel in it. So yeah, sorry about that. I'm glad we changed that. We've name checking him, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

We've name checked him, so we've delivered.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

But Naomi, you raise a good point because people might have noticed that the channel has the look of the channel might have changed over the years. So if I actually bring this up, um I think as we've gone, we've learnt quite a lot. So when you go right back to the early days, putting some effort into the thumbnails, some of them look quite attractive with the cannonball.

SPEAKER_05 19:12

Just you pointing at the camera.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Just me. Hands in shut are great for thumbnails.

SPEAKER_05 19:17

Oh, look at that. Now the hands wow.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

So some of these are just the default like YouTube thumbs, which I think is a real vibe. It's kind of coming back, people doing videos like that, just using the default. It feels very raw. But um our more recent stuff, it's got this kind of bright capitals font quite.

SPEAKER_05 19:34

Wait, hang on, that's on popular, not latest.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Oh, sorry. Yeah. But I imagine a lot of the most viewed ones are more recent. But yeah, so so we have we have shifted uh in the way we frame our videos, and I guess that's been a gradual thing. Sometimes we haven't always got it right. We have changed thumbnails of videos sometimes when people have felt they have misrepresented it. That's never been our intention, but yeah, it's something we're we're constantly wrestling with, I guess, isn't it? But undoubtedly the channel is reaching more people than it did, which isn't in itself a justification for it. No, no. But I suppose my take on it is um if you if you believe that what you're saying is is genuinely gonna you know proclaim Christ and is good for people to hear, and you're putting a lot of effort into making it, recording it, why wouldn't you put that additional effort into the framing, which is gonna have a huge impact on allowing it to reach more people? Yeah. Um if there are honest ways of doing that, that's worth pressing into.

SPEAKER_05 20:35

But I do get the yeah, yeah, because the method with which you do something, so specifically the method with which you use to communicate Jesus, like is also doing a communicating work.

SPEAKER_04 20:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:50

And so to ride the wave of the algorithm so that more people hear is that like you also do have to take a step back and think about the method that you're using. So what does it look like, I guess, for you guys to think about not just seeing life through the lens of Jesus on YouTube, but seeing YouTube through the lens of Jesus as you as you do that, what what are the things that are amazing and helpful about the YouTube platform, and what are some of the things that are like actually quite difficult to navigate as a Christian?

SPEAKER_03 21:22

Yeah, well, I think it's a it's a mission field, and there's three billion monthly users on it, more than three billion monthly users on it. And so if it's a country, it would be the biggest country on earth. And I think the missionary challenge is the same as every missionary faces. You've gotta you've gotta learn the local language and never worship the local gods, right?

SPEAKER_05 21:44

So helpful, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:45

The missionary challenges are always that that and missionaries to all sorts of different places struggle, and the struggle is not a sign that they shouldn't be there, yeah. And it's not a sign that they shouldn't try and engage, but missionaries. Coming back from furlough, and one will come back from the Democratic Republic of Congo, and some will come back from Pakistan, and they will talk about um yeah, we have we have really worked hard to understand and contextualize and learn the language, and we have really worked hard not to be heard to be describing Allah if we're in Pakistan, right? Or to be you know describing the tribal you know deities if if you're in the Democratic Republic of Congo. And that's just a constant missionary battle. And I think in the YouTube sense, there are definitely ways in which you need to learn the language, yeah. The language of YouTube like involves thumbnails and titles and books and like, share, and subscribe and A B testing. And A B testing of your of your thumbnails and and doing all that right. And and I I'm committed to doing that as well as we can do that, but the danger is that you then worship the YouTube gods of rage and deception and pride and ego and if you fall into views at all costs as such that you then start changing the message you're saying, then that feels like because you can kind of fall into audience capture where a video does really well, so then you kind of double down on that and your channel ends up becoming increasingly narrow in terms of what it's talking about.

SPEAKER_05 23:17

Um But does it not but there is a bit of that though, isn't there? Like you there there is a a niche finding.

SPEAKER_04 23:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:25

Like Thomas, your your own um interest in like the n the very specific niche of like horror films and Jesus like is is popular because it's re it's really specific. And I want and it feels like there is a need on YouTube, or at least that's what I'm seeing, is sometimes in our conversations behind the scenes, there's there's like a oh well we we don't want to do something that's drastically off course because the way that the like YouTube now funnels things to the types of people that might be interested in your general type of stuff. So that does narrow what you would be addressing, or the way that you might like the type of font you might use, or the I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Yeah, yeah, it's a definite balance, isn't it? I guess um I guess what I mean is you can get some channels where they have one video that really blows up and then they just think I've just gotta do what I did in that again and again.

SPEAKER_05 24:22

Oh yeah, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Okay. But yeah, I I think I think it it social media now is increasingly becoming about niche communities. And uh what's really interesting about so people like Alex O'Connor with millions of followers, they they are famous in a sense, but they're famous to a very specific group of people. They're not household names in the same way as someone like Stephen Fry or something like that. But the people who watch their content on YouTube who have those those interests will be like, Oh my goodness, Alex O'Connor. Like, you spoke to Alex O'Connor, that's incredible. Um, so it is it is a bizarre kind of thing, isn't it? That we're increasingly that yeah, the internet is becoming increasingly niche communities.

SPEAKER_05 25:02

Yeah, it feels like there's lots of big fish and lots of small ponds.

SPEAKER_03 25:06

Yeah. And lots of different silos, which does mean that like however niche your interest, you should be able to find an audience. You know, the the internet's a very big place. Um, you should be able to find a group of people. And and so that's an incentive actually to not follow audience capture. Yeah. But to actually have have a message and have the belief that with three billion monthly users out there, somebody's gonna like this stuff, right? But what but what's working against that is an algorithm that really just wants to send your video to the last 200 people who subscribe to your channel. Right. In the first instance. And so it it doesn't really matter that we've got 100,000 subscribers from one point of view, like it's the subscribers that have joined us in the last month that are privileged in the algorithm.

SPEAKER_05 25:54

Oh, that YouTube then.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:59

Yeah, because it's attention driven, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 26:01

And it's like you know, like like celebrating that we've got a hundred thousand like subscribers is a bit like like writing down the amount of money you've ever had in your bank historically. Like the amount of money you've had in your bank account historically is irrelevant.

SPEAKER_06 26:18

Like, because it's the end of the month and you've run out, right?

SPEAKER_03 26:22

And and I think actually what's most important in terms of what the algorithm will send our next video to is the people who have most recently subscribed to.

SPEAKER_05 26:30

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_03 26:31

And that's that's that's the pull. Because the pull is constantly, well, a lot of people responded to this, so I guess we better do this and turn it up to 11. And that's where you get audience capture, I think.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_05 26:44

So what are the ways that you don't do that? Like, are there some some examples of moments where you've had a video that's gone like you know, you've had way more people viewing it than you you maybe expected, and then you've decided not to ride that wave? Is that are there moments where that that's happened?

SPEAKER_03 27:01

Yeah, and and I like the the whole thing we're trying to do is to try to try to, okay, maybe because Alex O'Connor was in a debate and mentioned the Angel of the Lord, like, oh finally, something that's popular actually intersects with something that's like an area of interest for me and my my real passion, so let's now double down on the on the angel of the Lord and really try and go in that direction. And I think a lot a lot of what we do is okay, the the response video has done well, but it's been an opportunity therefore to preach Trinity in the Old Testament or something like that. Um and so like we certainly felt, I certainly felt the pull in 2021. So the revelations of Ravi Zacharias came out, and we did a one video after another um in that space of talking about church abuse, and I think it was really beneficial, I think it was really worthwhile. We saw people who wanted to trust Jesus for the first time or trust Jesus again or trust church again, having not been able to, and I think it was really worthwhile. But I saw a lot of other channels actually pivot entirely to doing that kind of content when the when beforehand they hadn't done that kind of content.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

I think that's what I meant about the yeah, just being led by the views where you just end up talking about a very specific thing that you wouldn't have done before.

SPEAKER_05 28:26

Yeah, because I suppose what you're saying is you have your own it's it's when it's when these other things, or maybe these other little corners, TLCs, um, intersect with your thing, that you're like, Well, I have a message and it like specifically the kind of you know, 3-2-1, if someone touches on an aspect of the Trinity, uh an aspect of the truth.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

God the world and you if they've got anywhere in the world of God the world or you for you, then great, then we'll talk about it.

SPEAKER_05 28:56

But that that's not totally true because there are there are other people that are talking about God the world and you things that you're not engaging with.

SPEAKER_03 29:03

Yeah. Yeah, it's just I mean I'm not very five-year plan driven, you know. No, um I would like to, I I would love if if YouTube responds to me doing, you know, Genesis and then Exodus, and then Leviticus, and then Numbers. I mean, there are some channels that are built like that. In a sense, if I wanted to do that, we'd probably have to start a different channel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:30

Because I don't think our channel maybe maybe the way unless unless you decided on sense of time, where that was the thing. So like anything like things to do with Genesis, yeah, for like, you know, the month of July, anything that happens that people talk about and you you the thing you connect it with is Genesis. Yep. And then it gets to August and you're into Exodus, and there's anything that the world says says connect. And you kind of you do go through it, but you're grounding it with like, I don't know, things that are happening. Yeah. Just bouncing ideas.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

That's interesting. So maybe it's so it's not it's not so much that it's bait that kind of thing people are talking about, but it's kind of like what are at people actually searching for and thinking about. Yeah. Um I think Elliot Buick, who you've spoken to quite a bit, he has quite a good philosophy on this where he talks about he frames his videos in terms of what people want, but then the video should give them what they need.

SPEAKER_03 30:23

Oh, yes, and he's only 20. I know. He makes me feel old.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Rory has just said, what's your most unusual filming experience? I remember a few from my time of you walking up the hill with my back to Thomas while he pointed down the hill at Glenn. One take Thomas.

SPEAKER_04 30:41

I do remember that now.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Was that seeing the future?

SPEAKER_03 30:44

That was seeing the future. And then was it that day that we went to the beach to film on the beach? And we and we like cooked because we were doing Jesus cooking breakfast on the beach. Oh, yeah. And I was cooking like kippers on this awful tin foil Tesco's like barbecue at 5 a.m. And I don't think we had any utensils. I was trying to pick it up with my fingers.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

We did some crazy stuff actually, didn't we?

SPEAKER_03 31:11

We've come a long way, Thomas. But we've yeah, I mean, we've done all sorts of different things, and like it is a regret that it's been two years since I've done a poem on the channel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

What was your last one? Was it the Easter is for atheists?

SPEAKER_03 31:27

Yeah, Easter is for atheists, and so the yeah, the the Caravaggio, the um the Thomas, the doubting Thomas one. Um so I don't know what would happen. I mean Well, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_05 31:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:39

If you give it a go.

SPEAKER_05 31:40

If you did a poem, what would the current YouTube thing do?

SPEAKER_03 31:44

I am quite interested in doing a Christmas movie. Yeah. You heard it first on the 27th of April.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

But well, I I post short films on my channel sometimes, knowing that they're gonna bomb because they're completely different to my standard like half-hour long video essays. But I'm like, I just really wanted to make this short film. And then what I do is at the end of the next like 10 video essays, I say, Oh, you might want to go and check out this short film. And I can usually like nudge it up to a few thousand views just by kind of but yeah, so I think there is a it's quite yeah, if there is something you really want to make, there could be a way of putting it on the channel and and then getting other videos to point to it.

SPEAKER_03 32:24

Um I think I yeah, I think we could do it well. I mean, I mean, yeah, the the poems that we've done in the last three or four years have done well. They've done okay.

SPEAKER_05 32:34

Um it's just but but again, the metric of done well is assuming and our lovely audience here with me, you can probably pick up some of my scepticism.

SPEAKER_06 32:48

But this is what I'm here for.

SPEAKER_05 32:50

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Love Jesus, share Jesus, don't love YouTube. Yes, I do. That's okay. I'm learning YouTube though.

SPEAKER_06 33:00

I'm learning. Jesus loves YouTube. Oh does Jesus Does Jesus love YouTube? He still loves YouTube. Why?

SPEAKER_03 33:08

Tell me why because it's blood just for yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Billions of billions of image bearers making the most edifying content. Yeah. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:19

I suppose well, this is the thing, is when you scroll through and you just see okay, the a face and a face, and da da da. I guess what you're saying is you're scrolling through and seeing the image of God.

SPEAKER_03 33:29

This this platform is so suited to the spoken word though. Like it's long before like this is this is made for preachers.

SPEAKER_05 33:40

I kind of love that Jesus didn't come in a time where there was this, though.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

That is interesting. Casting the seed broadly. Like literally the word comes from Matthew 13.

SPEAKER_05 33:52

Wait, but didn't broadcast did that just was that not just a farming thing?

SPEAKER_03 33:56

Right. But yeah, it's I mean, I guess you invented everything. But the the idea that the the seed is the message that is Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:03

Um where did my where did my original question? What was I saying?

SPEAKER_02 34:07

Does Jesus love you too?

SPEAKER_05 34:08

No, it was before that.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Uh the answer is yes, he does.

SPEAKER_05 34:12

I can't remember.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Well, oh that was it, that was it.

SPEAKER_05 34:15

Metrics of when a video has done well is because a poem that someone has watched from start to finish and it's done a work in their heart to warm their heart to the gospel, to stir them in some way, yeah, to see something fresh in the person of Jesus and his story. That is a video that has done well.

SPEAKER_04 34:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:35

Even if it hasn't done well in the like numbers. Yeah, yeah. So I think there's but that obviously is unseen, and you don't get that kind of feedback except from in in anecdotes or stories um I've had from Marty. So I guess that that's that's one challenge as well, from my perspective, is assessing when when is some something been worthwhile when it is when it is seed sowing, even if there hasn't been numbers and numbers, because actually there's sometimes a quality over quantity, isn't it? The one you only need to find that one lost coin, that one lost sheep, and all of heaven's rejoicing. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 35:11

And and I think in a sense the most encouraging things for us are the because we very we we put this stuff out there, we hear very little back in general in terms of how it's landing. Um but when we get well, comments give us a bit, but but you know, when we get that odd email where someone said, Oh, the way you talked about Jesus in that video really opened my eyes to to who he is, you're like, Yeah, that that's what it's about. It it is the actually hearing people's stories, isn't it? Not the not the numbers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

But um as as Marty would testify to, and you know, like me and Paul like making stupid jokes can be helpful to see like Christianity is livable and expensive and but you know, it even even just with talks, um there there might be uh a request for Naomi Brahm to come to Inverness to speak to twelve teenagers, and you might well just think you know what? No, um not gonna do it. I don't take much convincing to get to Inverness.

SPEAKER_05 36:19

Yeah. If anybody in Inverness would like to pay for me to come to Scotland, I will come. For 12 teenagers.

SPEAKER_06 36:29

But they're like and who's potential their lives and at the same time.

SPEAKER_03 36:35

Okay, but at the same time, there are a hundred people in Lewis that you can then sew into again and again and again and again. Sure. Um like that like numbers do count.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

And Naomi, if you do a talk at say a university event suite, would you use a microphone?

SPEAKER_05 36:54

Ooh. Um where's this going?

SPEAKER_06 36:59

I don't know what to use just because I can't project my voice sufficiently to fill a marquee that doesn't have walls that can contain This is great for the clicks.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

No, this isn't meant to be a gotcha, but I guess just the why is that that runication. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a technology that wasn't around at the time of Jesus that you're using so that more people can hear your message.

SPEAKER_05 37:23

Mm-hmm. That's good. Um I'm not saying that maps on but this mic but microphone event is the method of like proclaiming to a group of people in a particular moment in person, does it like that is a different method still to um a timeless recorded thing that could be rot watched and rewatched and watched in different contexts, and that there is something different about that, and maybe that's a whole other conversation about you know a theology of preaching, but there there is a that it is a bit different.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

Yeah, and I agree because it it does kind of blow your mind when you think about like if if you do a video it gets a hundred thousand views, it's actually quite hard to wrap your head around that. It's like a Wembley stadium full of imagine if I was giving a talk to a Wembley stadium full of people. Yeah, yeah. It's it's almost too easy, isn't it, to to speak online. Um but yeah. And and that's but that should make us more reverent, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 38:20

Yeah, that's just rather than just a disposable cheap thing. Like to think feel the weight of 100,000 views on something. Yeah. I mean, but to your point, in terms of like amplification does spoil things sometimes. Like I I think so street preaching is is a very mixed bag in terms of these sorts of um but almost all- Have you done any street preaching?

SPEAKER_05 38:48

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:49

But I would never I would never amplify. Um because I I don't want somebody to be able to hear me from 50 yards away. I want them to be I want them to be this close. Yeah. So hey, come on in. And and I would I would just basically take kind of school assembly talks that I give and in like anger management or something, and I'd sort of talk about anger management and and and in the same way that you would do a school assembly talk and bring it around to Jesus and and And then largely have a rent a crowd around me, and then the Christians would turn to their neighbour and sort of hand out gospels and get into conversations and say, What did you think of that idiot up there? And so I totally believe in that, but but I think amplification in that in that setting can spoil things, it can keep people at a distance. And I could I can think of situations where um amplification has failed and it's and it's been better.

SPEAKER_04 39:43

Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 39:44

I I I did a Carol's by candlelight at All Souls, and the PA system completely like like the everything went out, the electricity went out.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

I think I remember that. You stood on a chair. Is it not supposed to be candle light anyway?

SPEAKER_03 39:56

Everybody remembers the sorry?

SPEAKER_05 39:57

Or was it not supposed to be by candlelight anyway?

SPEAKER_03 39:59

Well, thankfully, thankfully, we had we had the candles out, but um Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:04

But then then everyone just has to be quiet and then trust the acoustics of the church to try and he.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

And yeah, that would have been the case for the vast majority of Christian history.

SPEAKER_05 40:14

Yeah, Jesus didn't have a microphone, but he still he shook rounds.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

He's still broadcast. Guys, this has been this has been.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

Has been fun. We should do this nightly.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

Maybe not. Yeah, thanks so much. We'll be back soon for more speaking live.

SPEAKER_06 40:30

Bye. Keep smiling and bye for all. Bye.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Well, thank you so much for listening, everyone. It was a lot of fun to go live and to celebrate a hundred thousand people seeing life through the lens of Jesus. Thanks so much for listening, and we will be back soon.