I don't really know if God is real, but action produces information. So for the next 30 days, I'm gonna pretend he's real. That will let you know if anything happens. I'm done pretending.
SPEAKER_02Other people are now copying you.
SPEAKER_01Day one of pretending God is real. I haven't seen videos by Brian Guan.
SPEAKER_02Day one of pretending if God is real. So on day one, like how much of you is thinking that by the end of this month you're going to believe from the heart? And how much of you is thinking this will be good for the clicks? I don't want to lie, I uh the the view count, I think about it.
SPEAKER_01I think about it a lot. I probably think about it more than I should.
SPEAKER_02Right now, Brian Guan is is trending. When Brian Guan is no longer trending, does it make you fear that that therefore Jesus might be left by the wayside?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely not. The reason I got here, I believe, is that I started to put more of my faith in Jesus. I did the thing where I was like, it's all about me. I tried that. I really tried that, and it did not give me the peace or satisfaction that I thought it would give. Atheum has not served me. I think we're due for a spiritual reawakening.
SPEAKER_02You've seen something enough in Christianity that it's it's worth trying out the Jesus thing. So what was it that made you think that that he was worth investing in? Brian Guan, have you invented a thing called faithless Christianity? What even was your thinking embarking on this 30-day trial?
SPEAKER_01Um, yeah, so I don't this the the concept is not new. Um I feel like apologists and uh you know theologians histori in history have all have mentioned similar things, this idea of like putting action first before you actually believe. I would even argue that some like branches of of Christianity probably agree with that too. Yeah. Um but the term is interesting, and I came up with it, and it definitely requires it's weird. It it's it requires a level of respect in terms of like realizing that Christianity is good and like something that you want to explore more deeply in terms of a self-experimentation, yeah. But also definitely requires a level of like audacity, pride, and frankly, like it's a you know, I've been in the beginning, I was just people were just calling me heretics left and right. Um, and so it is I am kind of threading this this line, but um, I'm realizing as more time goes on that faithless Christianity is just my testimony, that's all it is. Yeah, um, and it seems to be a pretty interesting testimony that is connecting with a lot of people, yeah. Um, both non-believers and interestingly enough, also people who are who identify as Christians, but maybe have just kind of gotten lazy and they're just like, Oh, like I believe I'm done. Yeah, and then are kind of just like, oh, it's been like you know, a long time since I opened my Bible. It's been a long time since I prayed and things like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, I think you are probably challenging a lot of faithful Christians because your your four practices every day uh is they're probably things that that put a lot of Christians to shame. Can you take us through like your your four practices that you challenged yourself to do every day?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, 100%. So number one is pray, uh morning prayer or whatever. Number two is gratitude, just like name a couple things you're grateful for and specifically be thankful to God for those things. Um, number three is read the Bible, right? Read a verse, learn about Jesus in the Bible. And then number four, I think this is actually the most important one, is apply his teachings. Like you gotta, you gotta like, you you you're learning all this stuff, you're building this connection, but then you gotta actually like do this thing, you gotta like be like Jesus. Yeah. Um, so yeah, that that it's just four things. I think like I I was reading some DMs yesterday, and there was a guy who was like, I actually think your naivety and like sort of like freshness to Christianity allows you to like sort of just like really simplify it down to what it's important, and like a lot of people who maybe have been Christians for a long time get like too deep in theology or too deep into things that they kind of like and I guess like lose the plot for lack of a better word.
SPEAKER_02Can you give us an example of a of an application of the teaching of Christ that you sort of performed in the in the last 26 days?
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, I mean like it can be as small as just like texting your parents you love them. Yeah. Right? That is such an easy, low-lift text, but still is like awesome. Um, to as large as you know, what I'm about to do, which is like going into the park and like talking to people about Jesus publicly. Uh things like that. You know, I think like as I started going through this journey, one of the first things I noticed was I immediately began to feel more guilt towards homeless people as I walked past them. I immediately began to like feel I was like, no, like this person has a soul. If like what would like you just I'm asking myself, what would Jesus do constantly? Right? This is my smoothie, by the way. Um, but like I walk past a homeless person, uh, what would Jesus do? He would 100% like go to that person and like talk to them, treat them like a human being. But like here, I live in New York, it's yeah, it's so easy to just like ah that person's crazy. I don't make eye contact, don't make eye contact, just keep walking by. Um, and so I started feeling a lot of guilt, and that guilt is only a bad thing if you don't do anything about it. And so, like, I that guilt spurred me into action. So now when I see a homeless person, I give them cash if I have any. If I don't, I'm like, hey, can I get you something to eat? Like, there's a bodega, do you want something to drink? Things like that. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And you you say that it takes uh a certain level of faith to think that Christianity is worth investing in. Because otherwise, I mean, why not jump in with both feet to Islam? Why not jump in with both feet to to do a 30-day Buddhism challenge? You've you've seen something enough in Christianity that it's it's worth trying out the Jesus thing. So, what was it that that made you think that that he was worth investing in?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um prior to this, I ran a crypto company, and you know, we raised millions of dollars, and I, you know, it was really my purpose was career and money, right? It was basically a number. That was what I was like really chasing. And at the end of that, I was like, okay, like nice. I I have like some some some money that I made, you know, not life-changing amount of money, but like still like a great amount of money. I'm 28 years old. I was like, oh, this is awesome. Why do I still feel empty? Why do I still feel like this hasn't done anything in terms of like really giving me deeper purpose? Um, and so then I thought I was like, I just need to get back to work, and so I started like jumping into like another company, another product, robotics. I had a robotic stint, I got into like AI boyfriends. I I got into I don't know if you've been following the looks maxing trend for young men, but I I made a looks maxing app, right? Very, I would say spiritually dead things, but I was just kind of like, oh, like I just need to be pouring, I have a lot of energy, I need to pour it into something. Yeah, you know, yeah. Um, and then finally I was like, none of this is working. Let me apply first first principles to this. Let me, I'm just gonna I I knew I enjoyed making content and I knew building a brand was valuable with wherever technology is headed, and so I was like, let me just go into the park and just talk to people about purpose, talk to people about about like what gives them purpose. And really quickly, it was like, okay, religion gives people a lot of purpose. And I talked to, like you mentioned, a bunch of Muslims, a bunch of Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, and the main difference I felt I I felt and I heard when I was talking to Christians versus to other religions is that the Christians always describe this relationship with a person. Whereas other religions are more about like guiding principles to live your life. And if you follow these rules, you know, I'm not that not to say that there's not benefits to other religions, and if you follow those guiding principles, it may actually help your life. Like, I don't I don't doubt that at all. I'm sure Buddhism and Islam and all these things are helpful and beneficial, but um the the personal element to it appealed to me, and then I started digging more, and it's like that's not by accident, right? That's like kind of like the whole point of Jesus. Like he came down to the earth as a human and like really suffered and like really like sort of like lowered himself down that ultimately makes him feel much he's a especially even like in the beginning when I was just pretending, even just like the idea of him in my head, it felt more relatable. Yes, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's what I think. I often say that like any religion can tell you, for instance, to treat the homeless guy well, but in which in which religion does God become the homeless guy, right? Like a m a Muslim can tell you to give alms to the poor, but does Allah become poor? Well, actually actually the the God of the Bible says, though he was rich yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich. Um and again, like Buddhism might teach you compassion, but in in which religion does the God of all things actually bleed his own heart's blood, come down and serve you? So I I'm always telling Christians, like, like hear these challenges from other religions to be kind and to and to practice hospitality and to and to give of yourself to others. Um but I think I think at the same time there's just this unimprovable story of the God who would actually become the homeless guy, who would actually become the sacrifice for sins for for other people. And I think and that's why I think there is that personal connection with the there's a person at the heart of Christianity, because he's entered into the story and done all the stuff that the other religions tell us to do. He's he's the one who's come and come and kind of done that. Now I I noticed was it on day 22, 23, um, in one of your sort of Zoom calls with with your parents, um, they were talking to you about Paul. So, like, are they Christians? Did you did you grow up in a Christian home?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so my mom converted probably 20 years ago. Okay. Um, and so I was to an extent raised Christian, um, but I never really believed it. I was just a kid. Yeah. And then I would say from high school up until about a year ago, which let's call that like a 15-year period, yeah. I just rejected it. I was I was I was like a hardcore atheist. Um in college, I was like, the Bible is a lie that used to control the masses, and I yeah, you know, did some took some interesting drugs and also took some interesting classes that all I at the time I thought really opened my mind to like what the world could be. And you know, I try not to be too hard on myself for those past experiences. I think like it all like like you know, young people really need to wrestle. Like it's actually like I I think if you wrestle hard and like kind of like doubt things and question things and go hard to it, you may find that on the other side when you if slash when you do come back to it, you'll come back to it with like a much stronger faith and like a much stronger belief that this is actually good. And it's like in the beginning, you're just like, oh, this is good for society, and then you're like, wait, this is so good to me and my soul that there it has to be, there has to be it has to be real, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Tell me of of the four practices, what do you think has been most beneficial for your soul?
SPEAKER_01That's the last one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Doing like nothing beats like just actually doing things for other people. Yeah, um, and I remember like it's interesting, like even if even like even if you are think you're being kind for the wrong reasons and you're like, oh, I'm just being kind because I'm supposed to, or like whatever, Jesus is gonna get mad at me, or and like it's like I don't really want to do this in my heart, but I'm gonna do it anyways. Even if you do the kind thing, you will still feel the fruits of it. Like that person will appreciate it, and then you'll also you're gonna feel lighter, and then you're gonna be like, Oh, that was actually not that bad, and maybe next time it's easier to be kind, or things like that. Um, you know, I think that the it's the thing about doing the actions is that in order to do the right actions, you need to have a at least a decent grasp of who Jesus is, and like you know, what would Jesus do in certain situations? And so I think that does require you know the relationship with prayer, or it does does require reading about him. Yes. Um yeah. But um for me, I think it was that also. I mean, gratitude, gratitude's great, gratitude's awesome, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and I noticed that even though it wasn't one of the four, um, church was also like part of part of your sort of weekly practice, I guess. For for how long has that been happening?
SPEAKER_01Uh, I mean, really seriously, I started going to church when I started the challenge. Um, I would say, you know, for the past year I've been sort of agnostic, right? I I at some point I was like, ah, maybe the atheism is atheum has not served me. I think that's what I realized. It hasn't served me the way I thought it was. Um, there were a lot of like practices I would say, which I can get, I'm happy to get into, but like, you know, really like deep getting deep into casual dating. That's like something that you can totally justify as like morally fine if you don't have a biblical framework to tell you what is right and wrong. Um, and I think that actually really like trapped me. I was trapped in that in like a cycle of lust for a really long time. Um, but I think towards the end of it, I I was like, damn, like something am I allowed to curse on this by the way? I don't really know. Explain quite a bit. Just speak how you speak, yeah. Okay, I mean, I was just like, I was like, dude, like I really feel like something is deeply wrong. Like, I I every time I'm like like as I I feel like I lose a part of my soul every time like a woman is like, hey, like I want to take things to the next step. And I'm like, oh, sorry, dude, I'm in my casual dating journey. You're a consenting adult. You you you're you know, I'm not doing anything wrong here. I'm I've been honest and transparent with my intentions this entire time. We are both consenting adults, and that is what uh secular society told me was the rule and guidelines for being a good person while dating. Right. That was that was that. And then I just like, why do I why do I why is my why do I feel something so bad here? Why these girls are getting hurt? I don't want to do this anymore. And so that was really, I think, the main reason I started to like I was like, oh, like the whole like save sex until marriage. Uh my entire life I was like, that's crazy, that's crazy, that's absolutely insane, that's absolutely insane. And then I get a little older and I experience some stuff, and I'm like, I kind of get it, you know, sex is sacred.
SPEAKER_00Sex should be sacred, right?
SPEAKER_02Um that's a fascinating dynamic because because the whole the whole thing you're telling yourself is consenting adults, consenting adults, we do what we choose to do, but at the same time you're saying that that mentality was enslaving you, which is just a really interesting combination, isn't it? Like choice, choice, choice, choice, choice is in the shop front window, but then you go back behind the shop front window and and what you've got is a is a bunch of of slavery. Is that is that how it felt?
SPEAKER_01Um slavery is what we describe it. I just felt like I was like losing a piece of my soul every time. Yeah, I think I think that's really what it was. And um, you know, I'll I try not to be too hard on myself from the past, but it's something that I I I actually have a lot of guilt around. Um and um so yeah.
SPEAKER_02So you must have you must have thought to yourself though on some level, okay, I'm going to give faithless Christianity a go. I'm going to jump in with both feet to something I'm not yet feeling. But if it turns out that this Christian thing is true, I'm actually saying goodbye to the casual dating thing. There's there's actually a cost for you in doing this. Were you aware of that as you go into it?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I mean, to be honest, I had already taken steps to curb casual dating long before I went into Christianity. I think like I just I knew something was wrong about this in my heart, and like, you know, my sister was like, You should try taking a break, Brian. And like, you know, and so I I had already kind of like started practicing probably like a lot of the rules and the things that say in the Bible without even really realizing that it's a big part of the Bible. Um and so I'd already been doing that, but you know, there are other things like you go down the lust pipeline, it's not just casual dating, it's porn, it's even just looked like Jesus is very clear, even just like looking at a woman lustfully is wrong. And you know, when I first read that, I'm like, come on, Jesus, this is crazy. Like, why are you saying that? But I I think I have a better understanding of it now. It's Jesus, it's so much of like it's in your heart, and so like you know, if I living in New York, there's so many people around, if I like really like stare at a woman lustfully, that just makes me more thinking about it, makes me think about it more, it makes me more likely to like then go, you know, look at porn later or like regress into other things. So if I can like identify the evil early on, as early on as I can, but even looking that's that that that that you you've gone too far. Then it you know it's helped me, you know, sort of um battle it better, I guess I would say, because you know it is just like a battle. I think every day it's just a battle. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Tell me what it felt like to pray to make yourself pray when to begin with you didn't think there was anybody on the other end of the line. How does that feel?
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, it's like awkward. So it's awkward and it's a little uncomfortable. Um and there's also the added element of like I just like have my phone, I'm filming myself, you know. Like when I recorded these videos, it's like that added element there. Yeah. Um, so that like doubles how performative it feels. Um, but I also am kind of like the whole thing is performative, and the whole thing is like, you know, even if you are performing, God will still find you. You know, even if you are like, yo, I'm just gonna try this. I don't I literally I'm just I'm just faking it. I don't think it's real. I I genuinely don't think it's real. Even into now, even even now, like there are days in where I feel God's presence more than others. You know, I still I still sometimes I still feel like I'm pretending when I pray. You know, it's not like I believe now, and it's just like, oh, let's go, we did it. It's just like no, it's like I I I think faith is like this non-linear thing where it's like there are days when you feel it, and there are days when you don't, and on the days where you don't feel it, pretend, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I was talking about this to uh another kind of YouTuber, Trent Horn. He's a he's a Catholic Christian who um I I sort of showed him one of one of your videos, and we had a conversation about it, and and myself from a more Protestant point of view, and and Trent Horn from a more Catholic point of view, and I I made the point that I think Protestants tend to be a little bit we tend to have more of an allergic reaction to the idea of going through the motions, and so it's less the sort of thing that a Protestant would suggest to say to someone, I don't care if you feel it or not, go through the motions, right? Um whereas actually I'm I'm an Anglican Protestant and I'm I'm very happy to say go through emotions, there are motions, there are emotions that have been given to us, and so that's that's absolutely fine. Um but but have you had different kinds of reactions from from different kinds of Christians to this whole project of of you going through emotions that you don't yet believe in?
SPEAKER_01Um have had different reactions. I mean, mostly it's just Catholics and Orthodoxes telling me to go to a Catholic church or an Orthodox church. Yes, yeah, yeah. Um it's been a lot of that.
SPEAKER_02Submit to Rome.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, submit to Rome, exactly. Um yeah, I mean, I you know, generally when people give me advice and if they think what I'm doing is good or bad, I don't really know if they're Catholic or Protestant. Um I think I I actually I did this a stream with a guy called Jesus and Whatnot, who's like this like you know, Catholic, very Catholic, kind of like debater guy who like debate atheists and like debate non-Catholics and things like that. Uh I'd be curious to hear what you think about like the whole denomination thing because like I can't help but feel like when I talk to a lot of like intense Catholics, a lot of it is it seems like there seems to be a lot of pride from where they're coming from in terms of like the Catholic Church is the right way to do Jesus, to be a Christian, and like everything else is wrong. Yeah. Um and you know, I think it's tricky because you know, yeah, like the Bible is so important, and like if we drift too far and we start interpreting too much, we can drift far away. But yeah, I can't help but like I was having that conversation and he was telling me how like no, like, you know, I can't help like I'm I'm all about a personal relationship with Jesus. You know, that that's that's I stick to the basics. I kind of feel like when people get too deep into denominational things, part of me is like you've lost the plot, right? It's actually not that complicated, just being be like Jesus. Yeah, but you know, curious to hear what you think about that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I I think um I mean the word Catholic means universal, sort of according to the whole is most literally what Catholic means. And I am 100% into Catholicity, which means the the universality of the Church of Jesus Christ. I think for that reason, I I I am not Roman. Because I I think to simply say that that Rome is the the the wholeness of the Church um is actually not to be as Catholic. It's not to be as universal. Um so I I think in terms of uh yeah, your your thing of uh if I'm united to Christ, then I'm part of the body of Christ. And I think the fundamental definition of the body of Christ is defined by Christ alone, and therefore I find it I find it difficult if somebody else comes along and says, no, we need to define it as Rome alone, right? Or Constantinople alone, or you know, I I I I happen to think that every church makes mistakes, like every single church, um, my own church included, um but that any church can be uh part of part of the true church, and I I think that's the actually Catholic position to take, is is where I'm I'm at. I mean you you you've wound up at Redeemer Downtown, um, which is Presbyterian Church of America, is that right? And and and um yeah, how how have you found just going along to that church and just joining joining any group of of Christians like that?
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's been great, dude. They've been kind, everyone's super nice to me. I don't even know what Presbyterian means, I'll be honest.
SPEAKER_00I don't know what that means.
SPEAKER_01Uh but I go there and we sing some songs, and then the pastor comes up and does a sermon, and I feel good. And I think what really helped for me was like the first time I went there, I was like, Let me talk to Jeff. Maybe it was the second time actually. I think the first time I didn't, I was too nervous. But the second or third time, I was like, Let me talk to the pastor. My mom is like, you know, if you're gonna do this, Brian, I want you to have guidance. I don't want you to do this alone. I want you to find like a good pastor who can who can like w help you through this. Yeah. And so I went I w I saw Jeff afterwards. He was incredibly kind to me. He prayed for me, he said, Let's get coffee. And I think I was like, All right, this guy's nice. I like this guy. And so I think a lot of it for me has to do with like I I have a very personal connection to you know the one of the pastors there and they have been incredibly supportive and kind to me even though like you know there's a lot of there there are a lot of reasons to not support what I'm doing. Um there's a lot of well maybe this is mostly my head and I I I I I just thought about this in my head at the time, but I think like the idea of faithless Christianity is can be very divisive and can be very like rage matey and like almost like it's almost like a ha oxy oxymoron. Um and um but no, I think I think Jeff saw me for who I was, a dude who was just wrestling and like trying to figure things out, and um he saw me there and he treated me just like a person and not someone that needed to be fixed or not someone that you know had to have their incorrect view of Christianity fixed into the correct view of Christianity, which is like happened so much and is like quite a huge turn off to people. Actually, it's actually such a turnoff, especially to someone like me. Um so yeah, I just like like shout out Jeff. Like that guy's been amazing um and been so supportive, and I just you know I uh that that's why I go to Redeemers because I I I I like Jeff and he's he's sort of my point man there. I mean everyone else there is amazing too. Um but yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think I think if you were to if you were to have a fifth element of your your 30-day challenge, I I think I think Christian community would be would be something, wouldn't it? Like in in terms of the importance of the people of God, whether it's whether it's worship worship on a Sunday morning, which I think is is is very important, but but yeah, having having a buddy alongside makes makes a heck of a difference.
SPEAKER_01That's true. That's true. What would you say about like a a digital version to that? Because I feel like there's been a huge digital community of that, and yeah obviously like in-person versus online, very different things. Yeah. Um yeah, but also like I don't know, like I feel like my online presence has allowed me to connect with more people than I could have ever connected with than just like going in person to church. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh, 100%. I mean, we've we've got the YouTube channel, we've got Instagram, we we try and get people to do uh an online course, a digital course that we've got called 321. Um people we've got 44,000 people you know registered for that for that course. But we've also got like 1,300 churches that are running that course in person. And what we really think is that yeah, digital is great for what digital is good for. But everybody knows you you need to touch grass at some stage. And I and I think actually breaking bread is the new touchgrass, right? To actually to actually break bread with another human being involves a vulnerability and an embodiment and a kind of a an authenticity and a an ability to be to know and be known. Um that that goes beyond what what what the digital is is capable of. So both end, right? Both end. Yeah. At the center of the human story stands a man who doesn't just claim to be one more person from this world. He keeps saying he is our maker and he has come in person. We want to immerse you in another way of seeing and to show you a different vision for God, the world, and you. Without assuming any prior knowledge, we'll be looking specifically at the vision for life that Jesus gives us. The meaning of life is to know the love of this God. This is the 50th heart of the Christian story. Do you want in on this? The three invite you in. The two determine the world. Be one with the Son of God.
SPEAKER_01Sign up now at 321course.com. I mean, that I kind of feel like right now my physical thing that I'm doing is I go to the park and I talk to people. So that's incredibly ground. It's so grounding. It's just like good to be outside talking to actual people. People on the internet are like not the real version of themselves when they like like they're they're not. And so it's nice to talk to real people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02What gave you the idea of doing that? Because I mean that's that's not necessarily baked into Christianity. There's there's plenty of Christians who would be petrified by by doing that. But yeah, what what made you add that into the mix?
SPEAKER_01I would say two things. One, like I I had a strong understanding that having a brand is just valuable. Um with all the AI and all this stuff, like tech is I think tech's going to zero. Like being a coder does not hold. I'm I'm a I'm a developer by by background, right? I build apps. Um and that is just not very not not as valuable as it once was. Um and so I was like, all right, let me build a brand. I enjoy making content. So I was like, all right, I want to make content. And um I think I just wanted to I think street interviews are interesting to me, and I don't I've been like this my whole life. I don't really have like social anxiety cues in my brain. I don't really think about how I'm being perceived by other people. It's just not something that I actually have to like put additional effort. My friends around me complain that complained to me about this a lot about how like I'll like I have to put additional effort into my brain to think about how someone else is currently perceiving me. It's like not natural. Yeah. Um, I think you know, you can call it a God-given gift, this lack of fear. Yeah, um, yeah. But yeah, I I I had zero I like there wasn't there was like no, I was just like, let's just do it. I'm I I like doing things. I like I I'm not much of a stay here and like let me just like read a bunch of theology books and like see how much I can learn. I don't like doing that. I like going out and just like like go like you know, talking to people, putting myself out there, seeing what happens.
SPEAKER_02I'm the same. I'm the same. I I don't have a shame, Gene. I think. Um my my wife feels a lot of shame, largely on account of me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's the tricky part is when other people who you love are like, I mean, I don't know about this, and you're like, I feel fine about this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I feel like you need you you gotta have a small you can't feel too much shame if you're gonna, you know, be in public and do the stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So you said earlier that you're you're aware that there are some branches of Christianity and there are some Christians who've said that it's a good idea to do what you're doing. I are you thinking about certain people? Um I'm thinking about Blaise Pascal as a Christian who's kind of you know you know about Pascal's wager. Yep, yep, definitely. Like and and was that was that in your mind as well because you developed this?
SPEAKER_01What's that? Oh, uh I just remember seeing a great video about Pascal's wager.
SPEAKER_02Um and was that in your mind about you know, Pat Pascal says, you know, he he says to his you know philosopher friends who are gambling lovers, he he says, Well, you know, you tell me that you don't believe in God, um, but why don't you why don't you commit to God? Right? And and it's he puts it in gambling terms, because if God exists and you've committed to him, well, ch-ching, you you've won big. And if he's not there, well, you know, no biggie. But but you have you haven't lost a lot. Um and I I I think he's put he's pressing into two things, Pascal, when he says that. One of the things he's pressing into is that this is exactly the context in which faith happens. Faith faith kind of catches up with you as you live yourself into a new way of thinking. And so like I think he's putting his finger on that. I think he's also putting his finger on if you're not willing to take the bet, right? If you're not going to do the 30-day challenge, you probably actually don't want God that much anyway. And your your your heart is probably not in it anyway, if you're not going to take the wager. And I I think both those things are I think Pascal isn't misunderstood in loads of ways, but I think he's absolutely right on on both those things. But um, but yeah, you've you've come across Pascal's wager before.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, I think Jeff, uh the pastor there, he he brought his his the concept to me during our first meeting while I was describing this. Um I thought it was interesting. I I don't know, I guess like my understanding of Pascal's wager, maybe this is wrong, it has more to do with like afterlife, right? Like you might as well believe in God so you can get into heaven, and that's sort of where like infinite upside, zero downside comes from.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um I think like at that time and even still now, I I don't and you know, I don't think too much about the afterlife, to be completely honest. Um, and maybe this is wrong of me, maybe this is the wrong approach, but I you know, first principles, I was like, what can I get out of Christianity? Like I want to see, like I I want to feel happier, I want to get the fruits of Christianity, and like if I'm going to convince non-believers to do this, I don't I don't know if the threat of hell in heaven is like as impactful as it may have once been, you know, 500 years ago, a thousand years ago. And so I'm really like my Pascal's wager is more about like like can you bring heaven to earth right now? Can you can you get the fruits? Are there benefits to your soul so profoundly deep that you it is worth for you to do this? And we can actually improve your life right now. Um that's what I experience, right? Like, I don't feel deep peace because I believe I'm saved and going to heaven now. I feel deep peace because I'm kinder to the people around me. I am more grateful for the beautiful weather outside. Um, I I all of a sudden am not putting so much pressure on myself to do XYZ, but I'm now just like it's all in your hands, God. And you know, that doing that is actually I'm realizing it's it's it's it it it like it takes you off, it takes the weight off your shoulders, right? It's it's no longer about you, it's about something bigger. And um yeah, the the I I'm a believer in like the fruits right now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I I and I actually think um Pascal was was yeah, he he's been so caricatured, I think. And and I think you know, sometimes people have um misunderstood Pascal's wager to be saying if you fake it with God and just mouth some kind of profession of faith, um, well, you get eternal life. Isn't that fantastic? Whereas actually when Pascal says commit to God, he actually means basically the you know the four practices plus you know go to mass on a Sunday, you know. Um he's actually talking about um not faking having a belief, which which you don't, you know, you you you've entered into this saying I'm I'm happy on day one being a faithless, you know, Christian. Um Pascal would be absolutely you you belong before you believe. You take part in the people of God before you find faith kind of catching up with you. Um so I I yeah.
SPEAKER_01Then it sounds like we're in alignment. It's my my my boy Pascal.
SPEAKER_02That's right. Or the other the other um sort of person that's often spoken of in in this regard is like Kierkegaard, um, Sorin Kierkegaard, the Danish philosopher, he he would talk about the leap of faith. And and that actually at some point you you just you need to dive in with both feet with something. And actually what's interesting with the the whole concept of the leap of faith is that sometimes sometimes it's like I don't know whether God's up there, I'm gonna leap anyway. But also sometimes it's it's like you look behind you and you recognize the the wastefulness and the the emptiness of a life without God, and you're like, well, it would be a leap to go forwards, but I also can't go back. It's it's it's sort of has there been any sense for you, Brian, in which in which you've felt like I don't know, you're you're like on a conveyor belt towards this thing? Like, how has it felt?
SPEAKER_01Let me think about that. Yeah, I I I mean I think doing the challenges required some level of leap of faith, but I actually think it was it was like I was afraid of I think it's you're right, it was I was afraid of what was behind me. I think that's like really what like got me. And funny enough, like the actual the the as I'm going through this journey and like I'm seeing things change, like my nicotine addiction just kind of like magically overnight, just like no longer feeling the desire to do nicotine after an eight-year battle. I was like, huh, that's interesting. Let me like remember that. Um, you know, my my changing how I view woman because all of a sudden like this idea of Jesus loving me unconditionally, like I know allowed me to receive and give more love from my heart. Um, the final nail in the coffin in terms of like me being like, all right, fuck it, it's time to it's time to believe for real was fear. And fear is something that I didn't feel, I haven't felt much for the past 15 years. You know, I I don't get social anxiety, and you know, I'm like a tall dude, so I don't really get physical anxiety. But I started having nightmares for the first time in a very long time, very dark nightmares. I got I woke up in the middle of the night and I would I felt scared. Um, and then the people around me started having dreams of like bad doing bad things to me or like me doing bad things to them. And that's what that was when I was like, this is scary, and I felt genuine fear for the first time. And to me, you know, I'm not I don't want to overanalyze this, but I feel like God was like humbling me, and he was like, Hey, like this is real, and uh I'm real, and uh this fear that you are feeling is real, and remember this. And so I remember at a point of time I was like, I don't want to be putting, I don't want to pretend to put on the armor of God if like all this darkness is real. I don't want to pretend anymore, I want to I want to put it on for real. Um so I think a lot I it is like uh a fear. It was like fear of what was behind me, but also fear of just like what was happening to me.
SPEAKER_02So on day one, like how much of you is thinking that by the end of this month you're going to believe from the heart? And how much of you is thinking this'll this will be good for the clicks like Yeah. What what are your expectations on day one?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean I don't want to lie, I uh the the view count, I think about it. I think about it a lot. I probably think about it more than I should. Um in terms of where I would stand in terms of my belief, I tried not to think about I that was something I was like, let me just take this day by day. Um I think like important caveat, like I had been kind of running this experiment for like the past month, and not as seriously, but just like kind of like you know, leaning into pretending and like praying every now and then. And and then so by the time I had started I started filming day one of filming, I was probably like more further along in the journey. Um but I uh I think you know it helps, right? It definitely helped when like the first video did really well, and I was like, damn, people seem to really like this format. Um, let me keep doing this. And that was like also helping me be more consistent with doing all four things every day, and so I actually think that like the social proof and the social it's like it's like why people go to coffee shops to work, right? It's like it's it's not a bad thing to have a little bit of social pressure and validation to like be consistent in something that you're doing very publicly. Um but yeah, I I I tried to just take it every day. I didn't have a plan, right? Every day I would just wake up and see like what what what I'm gonna do. Um, I tried to not think about the views, but that's impossible. And I actually like I it's like very clear like, hey, am I feeling happier because all of a sudden I'm getting a bunch of followers and like this is exciting and this is good, or is it because something in my heart is serving? And you know, a lot of people, a lot of Christians, when I made a video posing this question, they were like, Oh, like maybe it's both, right? Maybe they're the same thing. Um but no, that's something I still I still struggle with, right? Is is is the number. It's it's so easy to worship a number because it's so easily measurable. Um, but the problem is like it's just like numbers just go up forever, and so it's just never enough. And so, like, literally three weeks ago, I would have been like so stoked to get a for a video to hit like 10,000 views or 50,000 views, and now I'm like, damn, that that flopped, you know, that just like straight up flopped. Um and so yeah, it's this the the the number thing is like I think like underneath that is a lot of pride. There's a lot of pride in uh in terms of like the number going up, and I think that is probably my biggest thing, the biggest issue. If there's one thing that is gonna be my downfall or keep me from getting close to Jesus, it's gonna be my pride 100%.
SPEAKER_02What does that mean for for when the 30 days are up? Like, do you do you fear what will happen once you know when once this particular surge of interest, you know? Right right now, Brian Guan is is trending. When Brian Guan is no longer trending, does it does it make you fear that that therefore Jesus might be left by the wayside? Absolutely not.
SPEAKER_01Uh or I'm trying I hope that doesn't happen. One for one, uh I stopped calling this a 30-day challenge by like day four because I was like, oh, like maybe this is just something that I just need to do and continue to do. Like, let's see, let's make it a 60-day challenge, let's make it a 120-day challenge. Um, but also like the reason I got here, I believe, is that I started to put more of my faith in Jesus. And I started to be like, you know what, I'm gonna, it is not about me. I'm behind the cross. I just like this is about Jesus. I just want to as long as I feel like I am authentically and honestly spreading the good news of Jesus, and as long as this doesn't become about me, but is always stays focused on a bigger thing. It has to like I try I did the thing where I was like, it's all about me. I tried that, I really tried that, and it did not it did not give me the peace or satisfaction that I thought it would give me. I really, really tried being like it's all about me. Um, and so I think uh when the views go down, I honestly like that might be nice. It might be I might be able to breathe for a little bit, I might get some relief, and I'm just gonna be consistent. I'm gonna do the thing, I'm gonna pray every day, I'm gonna be grateful, I'm gonna read the Bible, I'm gonna do things like Jesus. I'm like, just be consistent. This is not about me. This is not, I don't, I don't, I don't care about a view count. I care about Jesus and being right by God. I don't I don't care about judgment from other people. I fear judgment from God, and so I think that is why I think it's actually gonna it's like I'm not gonna tie my value to a number. I'm gonna tie my value to Jesus, and in Jesus' eyes, he loves me and my value is is already there.
SPEAKER_02So how do you get that? I I love that. I love that by the way. But how do you how do you get from you know those four practices and challenging yourself every day to the idea that Jesus loves you? Like where did where did that penny drop?
SPEAKER_00Um where did I get the idea that Jesus loves you? Probably from the Bible you were reading.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean I think I think reading the Bible helps, but I guess and I think Jesus shows a lot of love, but um you're right, like the internalization of that is is is doesn't come supernaturally.
SPEAKER_02Um doesn't come super naturally, it comes supernaturally, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It comes supernaturally, but does not come very naturally. Yeah, I I I don't have an answer. I I actually I don't know. I yeah, I don't have an answer. I have I I am maybe it's because it's just Jesus and he loves me, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I love that. And it's such a simple but powerful message, yeah. Um and I think people looking from the outside in on Christian faith, they want to know how to how to have that experience. And as a Christian, I want to know how to give that experience to other people. That that they go from as an experience of emptiness and fear to an experience of fullness with the love of Jesus. That that that's like that's everything. Like you you want the whole world to experience that. How do we bottle it? I don't know, but but actually, there's something about what you've done that puts its finger on on something profound. That that as people live into this, the love of Jesus, I don't know, catches them unawares. It just yeah, it just gets them. It just gets them, you know.
SPEAKER_01Whether or not you're you're ready for it, it doesn't matter. It gets you. Um this is actually something interesting where it's like as my faith gets deeper, I find myself being less relatable to a non-believer. It's it's just this tricky situation where you use inherently become less relatable, and it inherently it actually just becomes more difficult to actually convey to them how deeply you feel about this. Yes, you know, in the early stages of my journey, I can just be like, oh yeah, you know, I feel a little more grateful, and you know, I'm I'm being nice to people, and that's a very rational thing, and people can understand that. How can I explain like me randomly thinking about something through the lens of Jesus loving me and just like crying? You know, how can I that's that's that's a word that's been happening more often. Yeah. Um I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I I noticed that I'll keep trying though. Yeah, well I I guess you just you you put yourself in the way of where Jesus is gonna meet you. Um like like Romans chapter 10, verse 17 says, faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of Christ. And it's yeah, I guess it's you've put yourself in a place where Jesus promises to show up and and he's shown up, which which is incredible. Um day day 20 seemed to be uh a real watershed moment for you.
SPEAKER_00I'm done pretending. I'm done pretending, you know, this is real, dude. Jesus Christ is real, Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. I'm done pretending I believe in this you have to like at some point you gotta make a decision. Like it's a decision. You make it you make it every day. Are you gonna try to explain this? Are you gonna attribute it to something? Are you gonna let the Holy Spirit into your heart? Are you gonna believe in something bigger than you? Are you gonna believe that Jesus Christ is real and died for your sins on a cross, and then three days later he rose from the dead. He conquered death. That's my guy, bro.
SPEAKER_02What was it like for Brian Guan, day 20?
SPEAKER_01Um, yeah, I was just I was just thinking, I was literally just sitting in my in my kitchen thinking about this person. Um, and you know, had a very kind friend best friend's mom, and it's a very kind person. You know, I think about her, you know, semi-regularly, and I always think about how kind she is. And then I sort of had this reframing of how I thought about that kindness from the lens of it being a gift from God. This is all just silent. I'm just like silently in my head. Um, and then all of a sudden, just overwhelmed with like a deep, profound sense of gratefulness and just like emotion. Um, and so me being in this documentation journey, I was like, oh, like this is this is a thought that maybe not very many people would have, but I was immediately like, oh, let me go live on Instagram right now and just like tell people what uh how I'm feeling. Um, because this is so interesting. And I and you know, I went live and I'm telling people about this stuff, and everyone in the chat is like, it's the Holy Spirit, bro. You got the Holy Spirit touched you. Um and I I think around that moment I I began to understand that belief and faith is choice, it's like a series of choices you make. I I in that moment could choose to be like, oh no, it's just like my brain, you know, processing all the spirituality and like I don't know, some weird and you know, serotonin rush or whatever. I can believe that, but I actually think that believing that it's the Holy Spirit, like it like deepens everything and makes everything hit harder. It's more it's a simple, it's powerful. The second I try to explain it away, I feel like I'm like I'm like dulling the effects of this medicine or this cure. You know, I'm I'm thinking my way out of the med the cure.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah. Yeah. In a similar way to, you know, you you could try to explain your love for your partner, for your wife, in in terms of all that's serotonin and that's dopamine. And you're just like, yeah. There's something irreducibly personal about this. Um were you were you ever afraid? Have you been afraid that you feel this on day 20, but it might be gone again on day 21 or day 41? Um yeah, how do you think about the future?
SPEAKER_01That's the beauty of pretending, right? Is like I might go back to pretending some days when I don't feel them. But like I've already done the pretending thing, and I'm just gonna what is it when I'm pretending? I'm just still doing the four things, right? And so I think that you know, those four things got me here, and it's it's all about consistency and it's just about doing it. And so, yeah, like there are gonna be days where I don't feel it, and I just I'm like, all right, I'm back to pretending. Yes. Um, but I think again, the beauty of pretending is it gives you this framework to be like, all right, just pretend. You know, like you just still go through that. Like is you're pretending, yeah, you don't believe God's fine. Now do the four things. Yes. Um that's so I think I think it's gonna be ups and downs, but I I that's that I I don't worry about that because I I'm pretty sure it's gonna happen, right? It's just like it's just all about these ups and downs. Yes. Um, and when that does happen, I'm just gonna continue doing what I've been doing, which is the four things.
SPEAKER_02That really reminds me of like the road to Emmaus. Do you know that story when Jesus rises from the dead in Luke chapter 24? Basically, that there's a couple, they've they've been following Jesus right up until his crucifixion, they were there for the crucifixion, and you can imagine like how absolutely devastated they must have been. Um they thought that he was the one. They thought they thought he was the Messiah, and no, dead oh well, and they don't know about the resurrection yet, and so they are just moping their way back to their their home in Emmaus, which is you know a few miles walk from from Jerusalem. And and as they dejectedly, dejectedly walk on Easter Sunday back home, who should join them but this this anonymous traveler Jesus, right? And there he is, totally incognito, and he just joins them in conversation. And it's a it's this beautiful thing. It's like, oh, what are you guys talking about? And they're like, have did you not hear about that guy, Jesus? He got killed. Oh, tell me more, says says, says Jesus. And um and then like Jesus brings like scripture to bear. He's like, but didn't the prophets say that the Messiah would die and then rise again? Isn't this exactly what the the Hebrew Bible has always been saying? And that doesn't yet get through to them. And then Jesus basically invites himself to their place, and then when they break bread together, and Jesus breaks bread in in a way that sort of reminds everybody of communion, and and this is my body given for you, and all of a sudden their eyes are opened, and then they kind of believe that it's Jesus, but it comes at the end of this massive long process in which they haven't understood who Jesus is, they've gone on ups and downs, they've gone on a journey with him, he's he's given them scriptures, and then in community and in the in the breaking of bread, all of a sudden they they say to one another, Oh, actually, weren't our hearts burning when he opened the scriptures to us on the road? And it's like even even the the heartburning understanding of scripture, they weren't even aware of it in the moment. They were just going through the motions. And it and and the feeling comes in and out. And I and I think that that whole story is given to us as this is a paradigm, actually, of how faith happens. And it's not a heartburning moment all the time. But if you keep traveling along along the road, you'll get you'll get to the destination. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Have you heard that story before? Uh I'm I mean, I'm pretty sure I read it.
SPEAKER_02It sounds familiar, but um, yeah, because a lot of people they they kind of they think of like the road to Damascus is the famous conversion story. So the Apostle Paul, he's off to basically kill Christians and and persecute them. And on on the way, Jesus meets him and beats him up and kind of He like makes him blind for three days. Yeah, right. There's blinding light, and and a lot of people say, I want to get converted, but I haven't yet had my road to Damascus experience. And I feel like so much of my life is saying to people, like, only only that guy, only Paul got the road to Damascus experience. The rest of us get the road to Amayus, like and it's total, totally ups and downs and that kind of thing. Um let me ask you a question about other people who are now copying you. Um, so I'm I'm on Instagram now and and a bunch of stuff comes up on my feed, and and uh like there's one guy and he calls it performative Christian maxing. Is that the new thing? Performative Christian maxing. Um that's awesome. Yeah, how do you feel about this thing becoming a trend?
SPEAKER_01Um I it only God like it's I think it's I that's it's it's from God. Um I'm happy about it. I think like if I can, you know, if it's just me doing it, then it's kind of you know on me. But the second other people start doing it too, it becomes this bigger movement, and I think it's exciting. I think it's it's we're tickling a lot of people's minds and souls. Um and I think we're due for uh a spiritual awake reawakening, maybe you call it. Um I think you know, as a as a as a as a as a as a globe, as a country, um America, I'm American as an American country, but also just larger than that. There's been like this like big test of atheism, and I think now we're reaching a point where people are like, nope, this isn't working. I don't like where where society is headed. Couple that with like AI sort of taking away a lot of our purpose in terms of we're no longer the smartest like intellectual things on the earth anymore. So, what do I do now? I think there's gonna be a huge purpose vacuum, and um I think like people are gonna need things to believe in and put their purpose into, and there is no better alternative than Jesus. So I'm I'm happy about it. I I you know I think be performative, I was performative, right? You may find that somewhere along the way of being performative, something changes. Um, but uh I think it's awesome, and uh I I actually like that's like uh it's incredibly like um gratifying to see other people doing the things that I'm doing, and it's it's awesome, you know. Very cool.
SPEAKER_02Last couple of questions, because I I know you you've got to get on, but um what one question that strikes me is were there many people praying for you before you had this idea? Because I I often sort of excavate when people's kind of they they tell me their their testimonies, their conversion stories, and there's usually a praying mother somewhere or there's there's the there's somebody who yeah is is doing that work, and I I often find that encouraging. I I guess your mother might might have been praying for you. Any anyone else?
SPEAKER_01Definitely praying mom, definitely praying mom. Um I don't know, no one else I can think of off the top of my head prior to that. I think once I started doing it, so many people would send me DMs saying they were praying for me, and that was a very surreal feeling. But up until that, it was just my mom. Um, but she prays hard, she prays hard. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I guess something worked. I mean, it's funny, like she was like trying to push it on me pretty hard for a while, and I was just like rebellion, rebellion, push away. Nope, you're wrong, you're crazy. You're literally a crazy person, mom. You're literally insane for believing in this stuff. Um, and then somewhere along the line, she was like, hands off, you're you're in you're in God's hands now. And when that happened, it allowed me to sort of figure things out on my own, and I think it's it's it's it's a delicate balance of allowing people to come to God. You can't you can't force it on when people aren't ready, they're just not it's they're not ready, they're not gonna take it. Doesn't matter how many shroud of turns you send them or whatever. So, what was it like?
SPEAKER_02Like, did you zoom her? Did you did you phone her? And you said, Mom, I I think it's true now.
SPEAKER_01Um I mean, I think she had known for a while. Yeah, um, I was because like even towards even before day 20, I would start to feel a little more guilt every time I was typing out the pretend on day whatever of pretending God was you. I would start to feel like, am I lying? Like, is this am I being deceitful? Am I actually pretending still? So she actually I think knew. Um, so I think the big the public you know declaration didn't change much for her. It didn't change much for me either. I I knew it wasn't gonna be all of a sudden like oh, I receiving the Holy Spirit, everything changes. Um, but she knew for a while. Um, so yeah. I before we end, I would love to ask you a question if that's okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, so something I think a lot about is like I'm gonna I'm gonna get married soon, I'm gonna need to raise a family, and like you know, that's gonna cost money. How do you think I'm not I'm not making money right now? I have you know decent savings for my last company or whatever, but how do you think about um the monetization of something like this? One thing I'm working on right now is like this app, it's just like it's just the four things, it's like a reminder app that helps you remind to do the all four things. Um but even then, like I'm like, do I monetize this? Is that does that is that wrong? Like, how I don't know. I'm just curious like how you think about like making money.
SPEAKER_02You will have to make money somehow. Um if if before God your your motive is you know what I'd love to scale this. I'd I'd love thousands to to take this challenge and to uh to encounter God the way that I've encountered God. And if if this will free me to devote my life to it, um then go for it. Um and you know, you you you don't live on air. We all we all we all need you know food on the table and and and money in our pockets. Um so it's I mean it's tricky. I mean I'm involved in the online world in which okay, I'm talking about Jesus, and partly I want those numbers to go up. Um and and partly I just want to do it for the glory of Jesus, whether people watch or not. And I know that those numbers are attached to pride, and I know those numbers are attached to certain monetization. And it's just it's it's ineradicable, it's it's not something that you can unweave. Um and certainly in them in the modern economy it's not something you can uh un unweave. So if yeah, if this is a way of you being able to devote yourself to a gift to God's people and and to the world, um sounds amazing. But this this is this is why getting in getting in person with other people, breaking bread with other people, um I I would I would you know talk to the guys in church about it and stay stay accountable to the people in church about it because um we are mysteries to ourselves, but actually when I'm opposite somebody else and we've gone for a walk together and we've broken bread together, I think those people are the ones who are really able to speak into our lives about those issues. But yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so no no nothing, just it's it's gonna be a struggle and you figure it out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I I don't think it's a it's certainly not a flat no. It's not like like, oh, if you monetize that app, you're like the money chamber changes in the temple, and Jesus is gonna flip the tables over and drive out Baranguan. I don't think that I don't think that at all. Um if this if this is a way of scaling this so that thousands more meet Christ, um praise God for that.
SPEAKER_01Okay, all right. I appreciate it uh I appreciate it. Yeah, I mean you know, gotta make money, yeah, gotta pay rent.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And we yeah, and we work together in community. So we we keep we keep ourselves open to those who who really know us. And I think, yeah, if if there are people in your life who can speak into your into your heart, you they can see into your heart and speak into your life. Um then step into it. Yeah. There's my advice. Brian, you've been so so generous for your time. I'm so glad for what God is doing in your life, and uh look forward to seeing more of it.
SPEAKER_01I appreciate your brother. Um yeah, we'll stay in contact. Um if I have any questions, as a cool file, I can GMP or whatever. I'd love that. I'd love that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, awesome with it. Yeah, and maybe I'll see you in April when I'm next in New York.
SPEAKER_01Okay, very nice. I mean, uh you you're you're in London? Or you're just a you're in the you're in the UK, or yeah, just near London.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'll let you know if I ever have ever pop up.
SPEAKER_02Come, come. Yeah, we'd love that. All right, bless you, man. Have a good one. God bless, man.
SPEAKER_01Cheers, thanks.