Hello everybody and welcome to Speak Life's Livecast. My name is Glenn Scrivener, and joined as ever in Crowbra, we have the very wonderful, talented, and good looking Paul Feasy. Hello, Paul.
SPEAKER_00Hello, how are you doing? That's the best intro I've ever had. Is that ever? I thought you were going to say over in Crowbra, you know, we've got the wonderful, talented, good-looking person, but they couldn't be here today. And so we've got Paul.
SPEAKER_01We've got Paul instead. Oh, I decided to pick on three immutable characteristics that you have. And uh and praise you for them. Yeah. Very kind. Yes. Yes. Uh, we are talking today about uh the unsayable opinions that uh all of us have, but none of us dare to speak. And uh therefore I think today is going to be the most interesting episode of the live cast ever. It's possible possibly, possibly also our final episode.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_01Depending on our overlords at YouTube and whether they allow this. Um but Paul, uh, describe for the people um our madcap idea that uh lies behind this episode.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the basic gist was many of you probably will have seen this already, but I guess there might be some who haven't. Um Glenn shared a survey, and uh it was quite apt, really, given the news of the last few days. You've probably seen uh the articles going around about J.K. Rowling and 150 others who've signed an open letter about free speech um and denouncing the restriction of debate that's happening all over the world. And that's something we've kind of seen happening here as well. I mean, we've got some bits up on the screen there, and you can see a little quote there from the letter. It says editors are fired for running controversial pieces, books are withdrawn for alleged inauthenticity, journalists are barred from writing on certain topics, professors are investigated for quoting works of literature in class. A researcher is fired for circulating a peer-reviewed academic study, and the heads of organizations are ousted for what are sometimes just clumsy mistakes. So it's all kind of very relevant, and and off the yeah, um kind of well, not directly off the back of that, but kind of uh closely related to that, Glenn had shared this um survey about unsayable things, and it was really an opportunity for people to put down things that they wouldn't feel comfortable saying out loud. What are the things you couldn't you couldn't say um publicly? Um and so there was an option to put up to ten different things, although some people put more than ten things. I think some probably could have put more than ten.
SPEAKER_01Some did. Some got in touch with me and said that uh I I didn't think I'd have ten, but I did, and so I had to go back in and do a little bit of a second time. More than ten opinions.
SPEAKER_00There was also a column just to say if you'd had any what was the experience you'd had if you'd aired certain controversial things out loud as well. And how many how many did we get responses? 400 and something?
SPEAKER_01450 uh different responses. Uh and if you add up all the the individual opinions, uh about two and a half thousand. So yeah, we've we've got a bubbling cauldron of uh unsayable opinion. And um I it's just interesting. As as you just mentioned the fact that we've got 202,500 unsayable opinions. What the most people presume about what these opinions are, there's a lot of interest because I think people think it's just a bubbling cauldron of bigotry and hate. Yeah. Um, and there are some definitely some spicy things in there that uh are hard to read. Um but what what overall was your impression as you you you've waded through the the 2000 plus opinions? What was your sort of opinion of the opinions?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean I I expected there to be um some really horrific, terrible things that people were saying. Um and as you said, there are one or two, but I think it probably is only one or two where people have said things and I've really gone like, oh my goodness, you know. Um many things would just be what I think as Christians, maybe conservative evangelicals, or you know, maybe just as Christians, many Christians, we would look at and say, we can see how saying this out loud is controversial, but it's pretty much mainstream orthodox Christian belief as it has been for a number of years. Um so I mean I've joked with you a few times and said, you know, I I thought basically we just see that there's a lot of monstrous opinions out there, but as I read them, I kind of thought, a lot of these seem okay, and then I thought, maybe I'm a monster. Maybe that's maybe that's what it is. Maybe I'm just a monster. But um Probably. Probably.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it has great explanatory power. As a hypothesis, it has great explanatory power.
SPEAKER_00Paul was a monster. But yeah, I mean, generally, uh I came away thinking okay. Yeah, but some some some people I don't think understood the question. But there's some stuff which I think I don't think that's unsayable. Um maybe not popular, um, yeah, but not unsayable.
SPEAKER_01Um I think in part it's it's not as spicy as you might think because there's only an audience of two looking at these opinions. So everyone who filled this out, I sort of put, you know, just myself and Paul Feasy, the you know, the co-host of the of the podcast, where we're the ones who are gonna um certainly see the final answer that people gave about their personal experiences online. Um, but I think the the fact that they're not sort of performing their opinion, it's it's not um it's not a slogan that they want to catch on. Um and the fact that um the incentives are to describe their opinion as sanely and as peaceably as possible, because what you want to demonstrate is oh, how crazy that we can't actually say this. Because it's a perfectly normal thing to say. So all the incentives were actually for people to present their opinions as as normally, as sanely, as peaceably um as possible. And so I I don't think they're as spicy as people um might imagine. No um so should we have a look at you you helpfully did a word cloud for us, Paul, with all these two and a half thousand uh opinions and um certain themes uh emerge from the word cloud. If you're listening on the podcast, this is why you need to subscribe on YouTube. Uh find us at speaklife media on YouTube. Do subscribe to us there. But um yeah, what do what do we just describe it for the viewers here, Paul? What what are we seeing?
SPEAKER_00Sure. So we've got the word cloud. If you don't know what a word cloud is, it basically just takes all the words you've got from a certain bit of text and displays them by size. So the more, you know, the the greater frequency at which words appear, it will give them greater um uh emphasis on the diagram. So I've put it in a little speech bubble shape here as well, because it's unsayable opinions. See what I'm talking about. Very clever. Uh yeah, very clever. Ah, yeah. And um basically you can see the the words that stand out biggest there. I mean, the word in the middle is people, so I mean that that's probably not that surprising. But um Well, isn't that interesting?
SPEAKER_01That the like yeah, we're classing people. You know, it's it's it's this people, that people, this people. So yeah, the the number one number one word that comes up is people, um, because we're classifying people by their, you know, by you know, all these these larger entities. I I thought that was interesting. That yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then we've got so women is quite big, abortion, sex, BLM, so Black Lives Matter, uh, children, gender, uh, Christian, marriage, um. NHS. NHS is there, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01You know?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um my my favorite, more prominent word is the word actually. Actually. Actually, I think you'll find. Actually. So yes, that's that's the word cloud. But um, we also um basically gave hashtags to every one of these opinions, and we tried, you know, we tried to narrow down the categories as much as we could, but we still we came up with about 93 different hashtags. I think. Um, and so we we've graphed out um the top 10 uh on the next slide. And um the top 10, I don't know if uh there should be a drum roll for this or if people are surprised at it. Um appeared. There we go. Um let me let me find the numbers uh that go alongside.
SPEAKER_00Uh so if you're just if you're looking at this while Glenn's doing that and you're thinking, well, transgender is very uh transgender is the is the number one issue by a country mile. Um, and let me see, 268. Yeah. If you're wondering why you didn't see that the word transgender very large on the diagram, it's because many people will have simply stated something along the lines of um trans you know, trans women are not women or something like that. Hence why women are not quite prevalent, men are not women, that kind of thing. So they might not have used the word transgender explicitly, um, but we felt that it was very clearly on that topic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yep. And within that transgender hashtag, there were 14 mentions of JK Rowling, which is interesting. I think she was oh, she was the second most prominent person mentioned in the survey. Uh who can guess who the most prominent person in the survey is? Jesprite. You would hope so. Is that always the answer? And yet, yeah, I think it was Donald J. Trump. Um usually, usually the the Trump, the unsayable opinion for Donald Trump is of course he's a madman, but not everything he always does is definitely always evil. It was usually kind of phrased. It was phrased like that. Um so yeah, number one, transgender with 268 opinions regarding it. Um and some of some of those opinions were things like actually, I think J.K. Rowling's statement um was um was unhelpful, um, even though I, you know, agreed to free speech and things like that. So um when we when we say that people speak on these issues, they don't always speak on the same side of these issues, which is interesting.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01So quite often you have two different people quite close to each other um who actually think that either side of the same um topic is topic is unsayable. Yeah, yeah, which is fascinating. So number one, transgender by a by a country mile, really. Um number two, um, race and racism with 189 different opinions about that. What's interesting though is also we separated out um views on Black Lives Matter. Um which is number 10 with 59. So if you add the 59 to the 189, you get closer to transgender um as as um uh a tot a hot topic, um, but still not not as much as transgender. So race and racism will we'll think about some of the things that people have said along those lines. Uh number three, abortion. Um and again, you know, people might not say um abortion in their opinion, but they'll say things like the unborn also have human rights or something like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um and you know, and again, opinions under that hashtag might be that I'm a Christian, but I think abortion should be legal, which is you know um what people said. But yeah, as a as a controversy, it's just a hot potato, and um most people pass on it. Uh uh number four, um issues of sexuality and the proper context for sex. So um lots of LGBT um stuff comes under this hashtag. Uh lots of stuff about the practice of gay sex is a sin according to the Bible. That would that would be you know a common sort of thing that would get the the hashtag uh of sex uh referring to sexuality. That's 170 opinions on that. Uh where are we up to? Number five would be politics, which is basically um things like um either you can't vote Tory and be a Christian, or of course you can vote Tory and be a Christian, can't you?
SPEAKER_00I I did laugh as I saw two very close together that one had said, like, I I can't understand how any of my Christian friends could have voted for Corbyn. And then, you know, in the next line you get this kind of I don't know how you can be a Christian and vote Tory, you know. And not that those are the only two options, obviously, but um yeah. You do see those completely polarized opinions.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and interestingly, you yeah, people saying it is anti-Christian to vote Tory. Um, and it is um, and can't I please just vote Tory and still be a Christian? Um and I wonder which one of those is unsayable. And I guess partly it depends on the context. You know, on certain Facebook walls, one thing will be unsayable.
SPEAKER_00Um as a Tory party conference, you can probably get away with it. Well, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01You know, even Theresa May made her famous, you know, um speech about we are the nasty party though, aren't we? Let's try to be less. But you know, in a world in which there could be a trending hashtag called never kissed a Tory, um, you know, you know, there there is there is that reality that um people are speaking to in in that opinion. I th quite quite a lot of those ones were things like um, it is possible to be a Christian and vote Brexit. It is possible to be a Christian and vote dot dot dot. Um and actually actually Brexit is is its own um hashtag, actually. But um Yes, yes. Um number, what are we up to? Number six, is it? Number six, other six other.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what were the other ones, Paul? Although there were all kinds of other ones, which I think we'll see a few later, but even just things like um I mean anything that couldn't be particularly categorized. Some of them were serious, but then often more often than not, they were just like pineapple on pizza is fine. Or controversially in the other way, you know, it's not fine, you know. So again, polarized opinions or frozen is not actually a good film. I agree, it's very subpar, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Middle of the road.
SPEAKER_01Really? Gosh.
SPEAKER_00It's all about marketing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but I mean, I don't think that's an unsayable. I d I do think on the pineapple one though, on the pineapple one, surely it is less sayable to say pineapple is actually kind of okay.
SPEAKER_00Well, I confessed to you my thing last week, didn't I, that was unsayable. I'll say it here on air, and you know, to hell with the consequences. You know, um, I make tea, I put the milk in first. Wow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_00I went there, people. And also, even more, you know, just to stick it to the tea snobs, you know, they uh every time I make a cup of tea for people, they always tell me what a good cup of tea I make. But I bet if I told them I put the milk in first, they wouldn't say that. It's all in people's heads. It's all in people's heads, right? You're blowing my mind.
SPEAKER_01That's been my experience of reading this survey. It just blows your mind.
SPEAKER_00Tomorrow there'll be like a release from you, won't there? Paul has had to step down from his role after things have come out.
SPEAKER_01We're distancing ourselves from Paul Feezy. He was never really a part of the speak live team. Um, marriage, definition of marriage, really. Um and that was mostly um that according to the Bible, man plus man is not a is is many things. It might be a civil partnership, but it is not a marriage.
SPEAKER_00And that that that did unl uh we did change the categories a bit as we went through sometimes. So that could have had some potential overlap with the homosexuality one as well, didn't we? There were there were opinions we felt fitted into more than one category. Occasionally, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So rarely we gave two hashtags to the same opinion. Sometimes we we put two hashtags on the same opinion because they literally just wrote two different sentences that were quite different opinions. Um but sometimes they straddled the um the categories. But generally, if people were talking about the correct context for sex, then it went uh under the sex category. If people were talking about the definition of marriage, it went under the marriage uh category. Um and that was 77 uh opinions on that. Uh number eight, um men and women having complementary roles in the church and in the world. Um, we gave that hashtag com for complementarian sort of thing. And there were 75 uh opinions uh on that. Again, um on either side of things. And and it's interesting how, depending on your context, um, the side that you take will make your opinion sayable or unsayable. If you're among conservative Christians, for instance, and you want to talk about women bishops, I suppose, or something like that, you know, you you might feel that your opinion is unsayable. Um, whereas conservative Christians uh out there in the world uh would find many of their um complementarian views uh unsayable in that context. Um so and and you know, so people people saying, you know, there was there was one opinion on complementarianism that was basically um gender roles within marriage have done unconscionable harm to um women down through the centuries. Something like that. So that that would go under the hashtag um complementarian, um, even as someone else is saying, I think there are you know different roles in marriage and in in church leadership. Um so they would they would both go as uh under that category. Uh so 75 unsayable opinions on complementarianism, then feminism, either for or against. Um largely that category was to do with um the equality of the sexes. Um and sometimes people mentioned under that category things like the gender pay gap. Um some people uh brought up uh issues that are commonly associated with the men's rights activist movement, uh, but things to do with the equality of the sexes and how that's working out in society. Uh that had 67 um opinions. Uh and then uh we'll just do the top 10, because as I say, there are 93 um hashtags. And then number 10, Black Lives Matter, and taking the knee. Um, and overwhelmingly, um the um the issue that people have there is they would fall over themselves to say, I completely agree with the hashtag, completely agree with the sentiments, I think the organization is terrible. Yeah. That that tended to be um what people would say. Yeah, and that was basically nine. And on the next slide, we we we sort of we identified early on there was this typical respondent who gave eight opinions, um, which are quite you know quite common. Um and this this kind of just probably reflects on you know the people who happen to follow me or be friends with me on Facebook. Um and so, you know, every every unconscionable opinion that you're about to read, it's all on me, basically. Um I I I am responsible. Um, but no, I I I think it what it was interesting though. We we definitely did get more diversity of views as things went on. Um so over the course of about three or four days, we collected these 450 opinions. And you know, the original tweet got retweeted like many times. So, you know, we were casting our net ever further afield in order to get these opinions. But early on, uh, this respondent came in, and I think that's it's probably kind of typical of the sorts of responses that we were getting throughout. And um, and you'll get a sense of the hashtags too as we look at this. So um, opinion number one that they shared uh abortion is evil and so is celebrating it. Um so what what's important to say again is um what we were asking people for was to phrase a saying that is unsayable. So it's it's we're we're not we're not saying that whoever this person is is constantly wanting to say this or owning this as their own personal view, but they're they're they're writing down something that they think is both factually true and unspeakable um publicly. So abortion is evil and so is celebrating it. So that got the hashtag ABN abortion. Uh number two, same-sex marriage should not be allowed. Um so again, that's um a definition of marriage issue. And you know, maybe you're visiting us for the first time and you've never come across Speak Life before and you're thinking, it is it is a festering cauldron of hatred here. Um because those those first two opinions um are not widely held and widely shared. Um but I guess I guess what we'd say is stick around, listen in. And there might be reasons behind these that are not grounded in hatred and bigotry. In fact, they might be grounded in a love of human rights and uh and a love of the family, for instance. Um but those are those are the first two of the typical uh opinions. And then number three, uh pride makes life worse for LGBT plus um people. Um and that again goes under the the sex and sexuality hashtag. Um number four, Boris Johnson actually seems to be a good leader. Sorry. Um each their own, each their own. But I th I think it may it made me see the shy Tory.
SPEAKER_00That one wasn't so anonymous because Boris has given himself away.
SPEAKER_01Or his mother. It was one of the two. I don't know who else would. But actually actually the the survey did kind of um speak to the shy Tory uh factor, didn't it? You know, people often say like Twitter has been like wrong footed by the like the last four election results because Twitter is far more left leaning than people are, and yeah, and people are much more willing to support conservatives uh secretly. Than they are in public. And that was kind of borne out in the survey as well. Number five, the NHS is poorly run and should not be celebrated. So again, people were falling over themselves to say, love the doctors and nurses. Thanks so much. But it's a bit of a nightmare in terms of organizational structure and those sorts of things. Would that be a fair kind of summary of the NHS opinions?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. It was it basically it's like the NHS has become a bit of a golden cow and everybody worships it. But you know, it it is good, but it it needs desperate reform and re you know, it needs a complete doesn't need someone said doesn't need more money, it needs to be managed more differently, needs better management. And it was all that kind of thing, wasn't it? Basically, and it lots of people I don't think anyone said the NHS is really, really awful, did they? Or just me. Just you. Just you. I'm always saying that.
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_00So I think everyone just it was all about kind of it is badly run and needs to be looked at.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And again, it was a good example of people putting quite sane, peaceably put opinions. Um, and yet I think it is kind of unsayable, or or at least it's uh, you know, you you get we'll find out in the comments. You get yeah, right. You get you get pushback um quite strongly on the NHS. And you know, speaking as an outsider, a a foreigner in a foreign land, you know, I think I think lots of foreigners in the UK sort of spot the the preeminent place that the NHS has in the national consciousness. We kind of we kind of spot that early on and we kind of scratch our heads and think, you know, there are lots of health services out there, and and this is one of them. Um but uh I think a lot of uh but a lot I think a lot of people are waking up ever more. Like English, my English Christian friends are more and more waking up to I think do you think it might be a bit of an idolatry? Do you think there might be some idolatry involved? And you know, everyone from overseas are uh saying, you think? Anyway. Speaking of idolatry, yes. Number six. Yeah. There were loads of these, actually, weren't there?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um football is actually quite boring most of the time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um is that unsayable? Um probably in some context. Maybe it's it's you know, it's unpopular anyway. Yes, yes. It's unpopular as an opinion. And lots of people are saying sport is boring, and you know, but but actually quite a lot, quite a lot of people actually single that football. That exists yeah, they single that football. Um and that that has the other hashtag, and and that's pretty emblematic of the other other hashtag. They're not usually the most serious things that people put down.
SPEAKER_00Well, you say that, Glenn. Like is football not serious? I know some people who would differ.
SPEAKER_01It's life or death. Yeah. Uh number seven from this particular um typical respondent said saying men and women are the same is factually incorrect and devalues women. Um so yeah, we put that under the the feminist um sort of hashtag because it's about wrestling with the issues of of um how do you make the sexes equal and not interchangeable? How do you how do you how do you prize the the distinctness of male and female even as you hold on to the um the equality? So saying men and women are the same is factually incorrect and devalues women. Um and then number eight, um BLM as an organization, not the movement itself, exclamation mark, has a dangerous agenda. And again, I think that's that's pretty typical. Like what what would you say is the the the typical BLM you know opinion that's on this survey?
SPEAKER_00Well, basically just that. Like I'm mostly people saying I'm all behind the idea that Black Lives Matter. I completely agree that that is the case. But as an organization, I think there are things in their kind of manifesto, their agenda, which basically are not things I can sign up to as a Christian.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's you know, that gives you a flavor. That that was sort of just one respondent out of about 450. Um, and so that that gives you a flavor for what people um were saying, but um, obviously there were sort of 85 other um opinions uh that were shared uh in amongst all that lot. Um and so Did you know are there not two more, Glenn? There should be, shouldn't there? Uh uh but there aren't. Typical ten opinions. Typical ten opinions. Yeah. Okay. I I think people put down unsayable opinions like that because just the just the fact is unsayable, even if the fact could serve in a good cause, the fact that it might serve in a wicked cause is what makes the the fact by itself unsayable.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But there are people who are who are quite playful with ideas, and and I think I was saying to you earlier, Paul, that you know, you you you and I are are playful with ideas in a way that we can sort of examine something at arm's length and take a look at it and think, yeah, no, no, maybe not. Um and so allow ideas to kind of be out there in the atmosphere without challenging them.
SPEAKER_00The the it I think the way we phrased it, or the way I phrased it when we were chatting about that kind of thing, was we're able to sit there and say, might it be possible that even if we don't think it's a good thing or or could lead to bad things, is it possible that that could be the case? That something could be true. Um we've kind of sat there sometimes and said to each other, well, it might be possible that this particular thing, you know, yeah, in relation to whatever it is, could be true, even if we don't like where that could lead. I think it's distasteful in society or whatever, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And so you you have a presumption of giving a charitable interpretation, hopefully. In the context of a relationship, you do have the presumption that there is some kind of charitable interpretation of what that person just said. Online, of course, and especially if the person is anonymous, then charitable interpretations you know, and and might well not be warranted, especially if they're avatar is of some skull and they're called, you know, literally their handle is misanthrope or something, you know. Um charitable interpretations kind of go out the window. You're making a lot of assumptions there, Glenn. You know, just I did have an interaction just this week with uh a self-identified misanthrope. Um, yeah, that's what he called himself. Wow. Um, this is this is social media. And you like, and you might think that our survey with its secretive anonymous, you know, two and a half thousand opinions, was this festering, you know, morass of hatred and bigotry, um, much less so than Twitter. And infinitely less so than YouTube comments.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, because I think in our survey, people were incentivized to actually state things as plainly as possible so that the the ridiculousness of banning them uh would be apparent. But um uh so yeah, what where do we want to go with this?
SPEAKER_00Um Do you want to look at some of the things that made us think that made us kind of go, hmm? Yeah, let's have a look. Let's have a look at um have a look at what we got here. Oh, oh yeah, wow.
SPEAKER_01There's no difference.
SPEAKER_00Go on.
SPEAKER_01You say it, then you're on record.
SPEAKER_00It's unsayable. It's unsayable. So this it did make sense. So someone put there is no difference between drag and blackface.
SPEAKER_01Whoa. Whoa. Okay, okay. Because I I guess the relevant similarity between those two things is you could accuse both of being culturally appropriative. They're both cultural appropriation, you know.
SPEAKER_00And stereotype stereotyping of a particular group, perhaps. Is that what they're getting out there?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think we and we gave it the trans um hashtag because I I I think where the person wants to go with that is hey, if we've got a problem with blackface, and I think we do, do we not have a problem with this other thing called drag? Um, or at least have you ever noticed that there are some relevant similarities between those two things? Just saying, you know. So um that's why reading the the survey results was just very refreshing because yeah, people people were free to say things like that. Um you can read through the the you can read through the opinions yourself, and I I I think you'll you'll find you you're not constantly being slapped around the face with um very offensive opinions. You're actually you're actually being um confronted with stuff that's like, oh, never thought about that. That was that was overwhelmingly my mystery. Yeah, there is a lot of anyway.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, what's the next one? Here we go. I couldn't see why the White Lives Matter Burnley pilot should be suspended for doing his job, but the cake makers who said no to making a cake celebrating gay marriage should end up in court. Either you can say no or you can't.
SPEAKER_01And that's given the the hashtag freedom, um, which is about freedom of speech, freedom of expression. And, you know, an interesting case. So that the Burnley supporter that wanted to fly White Lives Matter up in the sky for some reason, um, employed a pilot to do that. And the pilot said, All right, it's you know, it's a job, took the job. Um, and so he was suspended. The Ashes uh bakery in Northern Ireland, um, they refused to make uh a cake with a message on it about supporting gay marriage. Um, yeah, so why is it that one person who is um asked to um publish a message uh is able to say no and the other person um is not. Um but yeah, again, it's somebody bringing relevant similarities to bear on a situation. Um and maybe and maybe they're wrong, and maybe the analogy breaks down entirely, and maybe there's no relevant similarity between those things, but can we at least bring that opinion for consideration?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What else have we got?
SPEAKER_00What else have we got? Parents have very little ability to change the personality of their children. I was just rejoicing at that one.
SPEAKER_01The precious off parents. I I wonder why this person thought it was unsayable though. That yeah, parents have little ability to change the personality of their children. I I perhaps perhaps they're imagining various conservative Christian Facebook groups where it's all about, you know, you can discipline your child this way or the other. Is that why that opinion is unsayable? Um maybe. But um it was refreshing to hear anyway.
SPEAKER_00Sure. And then this one here is widespread access to university education is a bad thing. What? I thought education was the answer to everything, Paul. That one struck you, did it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, widespread, yeah. Well well, just just that the the narrative is always um the problem is lack of education, the answer is more education. Right. Yeah. More is better, right? Um well, maybe not. And maybe maybe we shouldn't aim for everyone to go to university. Isn't isn't that a you know ridiculously middle class thing to do? And and and to have this to have this goal that that tertiary education is the be all and end all. Um actually, you know, maybe society would be a lot better if yeah, we invested more in apprenticeships and all that, all that kind of stuff. Again, not not wildly um not wildly unsaleable, but pushing back against a tide anyway.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, like I say, these are just ones that made us kind of go, hmm, okay. Ministry apprenticeship schemes are normally exploitative and are essentially under minimum wage workers.
SPEAKER_01But like I say, go on the hashtag if you're if you're a church leader, go on the hashtag, hashtag EVS or hashtag hashtag CHL for church leaders, and uh and you'll see lots of lots of opinions like that. Um yeah. Um a similar one, the next one. There is very little that the church in England offers for men without a degree.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That one struck me because um initially, because I just thought, yeah, it's interesting we have this uh academic thing going on in the church. And maybe I mean the Church of England is wider than I tend to think of it, obviously uh I guess, but again, particularly in conservative evangelical circles, academic academia is is a big thing. Um and but then it also struck me that that maybe there's an issue there of class as well, that the Church of England it it would it would seem likely to me, although I can't put any data to this, that going and getting a degree is very much the um the thing that the middle classes go and do. Um and therefore the Church of England may end up or is predominantly middle class um to the expense of those in the working classes, and maybe if you were in the working class it'd be very difficult to get a role in the Church of England. I'm not saying it's impossible, not saying it doesn't happen, but I'm just wondering out loud whether there could be that tendency.
SPEAKER_01Oh, completely. Is is the Church of England more like Waitrose or more like Morrison's? Yeah, obviously, it's obviously a Waitros kind of an organization. Um Yeah, yeah, and and lots of people pointing that out. Again, not not not completely unsayable, um, but but it's certainly pushing, pushing against um a narrative and and riling, riling a majority that's um might bristle at the the idea that they're in any way having a majority bias and that that that bias might be class based. Um but there were lots of things like you know, conservative evangelicalism is just a posh boys club. Um in fact, but isn't it? That's coming up, Glenn.
SPEAKER_00It's coming up, it's coming up. I didn't write it. This is right. Somebody else. Before we get to the conservative evangelical posh boys club, there was one that said uh there's a martyr complex found among many Western evangelicals that in a time when such national injustice is at the forefront of global attention is distasteful and ignorant. To clarify, Christians are terribly persecuted for their beliefs, and Christians everywhere should support brothers and sisters who face oppression. I'm tired of every person who seems to have their own gay cake story. Gay cake in inverted commons there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Uh yeah, I told I totally resonated with that. I I think it's funny, even even the Christians who point the finger at the oppression Olympics out there, and how there's this competitive victimhood, you know, ever, you know, in the culture, people are just emoting and they're not making fact-based claims, and they're just, you know, they're they're just trying to virtue signal and they're just trying to put themselves over as the victim the the entire time. Those very same Christians want to coin the phrase, you know, Christophia. There's a slammophobia. Why isn't there Christophia?
SPEAKER_00There is Christophia.
SPEAKER_01And, you know.
SPEAKER_00I think if lockdown has been a blessing in any way, it's that because it was over Easter, we didn't have to endure endless campaigns about chocolate eggs without the word Easter on them. Just throwing it out there. Don't hate me.
SPEAKER_01And the etymology of the phrase Easter, which itself is oppressing Christians somehow. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Christians thinking of themselves as oppressed in the West when, you know.
SPEAKER_00There was a meme, wasn't there, um, of someone saying, like, my roommate asked me to turn my lacree down. Is this persecution? And I think that perfectly sums up the Western Christian experience of persecution most of the time.
SPEAKER_01Now, lots lots within the survey were pointing to um the very distinct possibility that we may be persecuted quite severely in the West moving forwards. And I think some of those opinions. So if you want to um check out the hashtag P-E-R, um And it all started with the eggs.
SPEAKER_00Go back, see. We let the eggs we let the eggs slide, and then they came for us. I was silent when they came for the eggs. But then there was no one to stand for me. Sorry, I'm being facetious, but it's what I do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But there was there was one under the persecution hashtag that I did I did think was plausible. I don't think it's necessarily probable, but I thought it was plausible. He said, you know, we're we're moving into a uh into a situation where the children of conservative Christians might be taken from them. And I thought, hmm, yeah, I can I can join the dots.
SPEAKER_00That that would be an example of us sitting and going, it's not impossible.
SPEAKER_01It's not impossible.
SPEAKER_00It's not impossible, even if not likely.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and then we've offended a good swathe of conservative evangelicals already, so let's keep going in that vein. So the uh another one that came up in uh and this this did come up a few times, or things like this. Conservative evangelical church is a posh boys club who don't understand people who don't fit their mold.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I'm starting to think maybe people are just trying to get a message to me. Yeah, one of one of them was Glenn Scrivener smells. So yeah, thank you for whoever said that. That was it. Thank you, Paul. Um but yeah, lots of lots of opinions like that. But but they weren't just things that made us think, and they weren't just things that what's the next thing. Things that made us laugh.
SPEAKER_00Things that made us laugh. It was good to have a bit of levity in the middle of the year.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, before we prick the bubble.
SPEAKER_00There we go. So things that made us laugh. Starting every church service with a countdown timer is rapid and banal.
SPEAKER_01People are feeling the stab of of yeah. Their conscience.
SPEAKER_00Church begins in you know, two minutes.
SPEAKER_01Five.
SPEAKER_00What theological message are we sending there? True. We're saying that church begins in two minutes.
SPEAKER_01It's probably probably better than people came into the church. No, the church came into the building there.
SPEAKER_00So that one was uh you know, always fun. All Burger Kings should be shut down. They are a moral evil. Well, strong stuff. Man, let us know in the comments. You know, what do you think?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, their burgers are better than McDonald's, so there you go.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. I mean, I'd go you'd take a whopper over a big Mac, wouldn't you? Any day.
SPEAKER_01Any day. But McDonald's fries are better.
SPEAKER_00If you disagree, come at me. What's the next thing that makes us laugh? Hugging is overrated. Social distancing is actually quite nice. Very excarnational of them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Glenn's Grivener smells. We know. So that's Paul's one again. There it is. What else do we have? I did get a couple of times.
SPEAKER_01I did get a couple of um, yes, direct. Um that that that was the that was the silly one. Um, but there were a couple more concerned individuals who wanted to message me through the survey. Yeah. Um well and both of both of them were concerned that was I just trying to stir up bigotry under the cover of anonymity.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, I'm like, no, the internet has already done that.
SPEAKER_00Like, I'm not sure. Well it and and what it and what they were what some of those things revealed, didn't it, was that the the assumption which perhaps isn't you know unsurprising. Oh, it's not surprising, sorry, is um the assumption is that when people can air their views without any fear, they will say lots of hateful and bigoted things. Yes. And as we said at the beginning, we were surprised there wasn't more hateful bigoted material, but actually just kind of stuff that we kind of went, okay. Yeah. And see why someone might think that, even if we don't always agree. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um having said that, and and people will people will see the um the link in the description box, so you can you can check these out. You can wade through all two and a half thousand opinions yourself and and see. But I think I could I could kind of count on one hand um the number of opinions that I thought were truly, ooh, that's extreme, that's too hot to handle, no, don't say that. Um and certainly if I was somebody's pastor, I would absolutely forbid them from saying that on Facebook. Or, you know, I would I would absolutely have words with them if um if they said anything of the sort, and I would want to, you know, interrogate what their reasons were for saying them. And we we're just gonna um have a look at a couple of those. Um so one of them under the trans, let me just go through all five that I I thought were um um beyond the pale. Um one of them was about trans, and it wasn't anything that was said in the opinion, it was that they contracted the word transgender person uh in a way that I thought was a horrible slur. Um so I thought that was totally beyond the beyond the pale. Um what else was there? There was one person who said um uh the reporting of uh Holocaust figures is overinflated. Right. Um, I would definitely, you know, if if I if I saw any member of my flock who said anything like that on social media, they'd be getting a call, we'd be sitting down. What are you talking about? Um, we're we're on the road to Holocaust denial type territory. Yep. Um there.
SPEAKER_00Um can you can you think of there well there were the ones which we've we've got Yeah, let's let's there well the one one particularly that was on the slide on the right hand side while sexual abuse within a marriage is vile, marital rape is impossible because married people are one flesh and one cannot rape oneself. And that was one that I very much read that and just thought like, oh my, you know, oh my goodness, like what is Yeah, yeah. You know, um, even if you were trying to come up with a just theologically, I'm saying yes, you know, yes, even then I would look and go, I I'm really I'm really and very uncomfortable with what you've just said here.
SPEAKER_01And I think it's I I do think it's beyond the pale, but and let's talk about your marriage, you know. If you are married, let's um so I would I would definitely sit that person down and we would definitely be having and and if you're tuning in, um you know, perhaps perhaps charitably what you mean to what you mean is that um one spouse forcing sex on the other spouse is absolutely abhorrent, but just definitionally, I wouldn't call it rape, I'd call it sexual abuse. Maybe that's what you mean. Still, I I I want to know why why you're making that distinction. I want to know why you're playing that language game. But most deeply, um, I I want you to know you're wrong about that. Because the one flesh analogy like breaks down in terms of all sorts of abusive situations. You know, I can slap myself on the wrist for doing something silly. If I slap my wife, that's physical abuse. A little bit different, isn't it? Yeah. Right? You you know that the one flesh um, I'm I'm begging you, listen to me. You know that the one flesh analogy breaks down in all sorts of you know circumstances. And actually, the one flesh analogy is meant to make you think in Ephesians 5, no one ever harmed himself. Right? It's meant it's meant to not make you um more indifferent to doing stuff to your body. It's meant to make make you um more sensitive to never harming your body. Um, so if you've tuned in, that's the sort of conversation I I'd have with you. And and I just urge you to have a conversation, um, you know, with if especially if you're married. Maybe you're not married and you're just you know thinking this stuff out, and this is just an example of something that's unsayable. Um, okay, but you've heard what I've said, you can DM me and we can get into a conversation. If you're married, definitely talk to somebody if if this is kind of what you're thinking about. But I'm glad that this exercise flushed out that opinion so that we can have a so that we can address it in one way or another. It's certainly not the sort of opinion that belongs on social media. Um but in one sense I'm I'm glad that this exercise has flushed it out so we can address it. But yeah, so that that was one of a handful of things that I just thought were were beyond the pale.
SPEAKER_00I mean there were there were other things that uh shocked me. Um sometimes more in the um you know things that people had happened to people when they'd said something. Yes. So the I mean the one that particularly stood out was I I I I honestly can't remember the opinions they shared, but it I don't I don't think they were particularly controversial to my mind. But they said, you know, when it said what what experiences have you had when you shared these things, and they said, you know, a death threat from a close friend. Yeah. And that that just really struck me, like that it I mean having death threats would be bad enough, you know, that but it seems to be a thing in this day and age with Twitter and social media. But when it's someone you know who you would describe as a close friend who has not been able to at least sit down with you and have a conversation and think, tell me why you think these things, and maybe try and walk a mile in someone's shoes or empathize. I mean, that just seems crazy, you know. That was a genuine kind of gasp kind of moment, like yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um there were some other gasp moments. Um one one opinion was that the the transatlantic slave trade was Africans selling other Africans to Jews. Yes, yes, I do remember that. Okay. Um not having that. Um and again, if if if you're in my flock and you post anything like that on Facebook, you're getting a call. Hooray, we're gonna go for a pint, we're gonna talk about that because not cool. Um so I think those those are four. And then here's a here's a fifth one that's that's on the slide, which I thought was was um again. What was interesting was I'd never I'd never seen the issue in this light before. And I was not persuaded by his argumentation, but at least the fact that he expressed it um made me see this issue in a different light. So he says, um, I'm assuming it's a he.
SPEAKER_00Well, I was gonna say exactly. We've there's often we've and we said that a lot during our conversations, well, we're assuming this is a bloke or this is a woman. Yeah. Only when they say the horrible stuff.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. They say the nice stuff we assume a woman. Um this this person has said, here's a really controversial one. Uh we should vote by household, not as individuals. The head of the household, normally men, should vote on behalf of the household. Giving men and women the vote has essentially set us against each other and ensure that we will always have left-of-center governments. Okay. Now you know why I've identified it as one of these um one of these spicy ones. But what I was um what I was very grateful for was I don't think, even though I studied politics, it was my undergraduate degree in political philosophy. Um, I never really understood how there could ever be arguments against universal suffrage. Like, why would there ever be votes? Why would there ever be people voting against women having the vote? Um and at least he's putting his finger on, oh, I want households to to be the indivisible unit of this polity. Um and I I hope that this person would say, Oh, okay, and if there's a if there's a single mother household, she she gets the vote. And I would I would I would get to the same thing.
SPEAKER_00You kind of assume, because the person says, normally man, that they're they're open to the idea that women might be doing the voting.
SPEAKER_01So that's yeah, and it got me to say, okay, so the conservative view is actually to see the family unit as such a unity that it can't be, it can't be split apart into more individual kind of atoms. Uh and and therefore, conservatism comes from a desire to honor the family as the thing that is important in society. And therefore, the number one thing in the mind of someone objecting to universal suffrage is not I hate women, but I love family. That was a new thought to me. That was a new thought to me. Yeah, because I not crossed my mind. Yeah. And yeah, and while ever opinions are unsayable, not only do you not hear the opinions, you don't hear the reasons why people think in the way that they think. Um and discourse is much uh much diminished because of that. So I think that that's uh an example of an extreme opinion, which I do not agree with, and and I am ready with all the reasons why that's wrong. Um, but I'm glad that this one's out there now, um, because it's made me think and it's made me see the other side in in a in a different light. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's an interesting conversation to be had there, at least. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Anyway. So those are and and those were, you know, and and people kind of saying, oh, you're gonna get such hate-filled bile. Um I mean, there are there are a few ones where I was just like, oh, that's mmm, don't like that. Yeah. Um, but overwhelmingly, if if for instance you're pro-life and if um you understand arguments for complementarianism and biblical marriage, I don't think you're gonna be shocked by whatever you read here.
SPEAKER_00I mean the thing that was ironic that we did kind of laugh about a little bit, was the very few comments where people said, we're just gonna see how terribly racist everyone is in these things. They were the very few comments who had put what I would term as terribly racist things, whilst everyone else had put pretty standard. Should we see should we see the example that you're you're you're talking about number 343?
SPEAKER_01Uh if you say it is, yeah. The person who shall henceforth be known as number 343, which um I was very glad for their participation in the in the survey. Um and and I I agreed with a couple of their um a couple of their opinions. But yeah, get a get a load of this. This is this is this is this is quite interesting to me. So here is number 343, um, as they shall henceforth be known. But um uh opinion number one, um, descendants of transatlantic slaves ought to receive individual financial reparations. Um now again, that's that's not unsayable in all sorts of um circumstances, but perhaps unsayable depending on you know what Facebook group you're a part of or or whatever. Um but yeah, I'm like, yeah, I'm all ears. Um totally believe that there's such a thing as systemic racism, totally thing, totally believe that centuries of historic oppression um might take more than you know a few pieces of legislation in the 1960s to sort out, um, and totally committed to reordering all sorts of things in order to reorder the privilege that is um available to those who have been oppressed historically. Does that include financial? Um I think there's a measurement problem there, but um, if somebody could figure it out, maybe I'm all ears. Um so uh number one, descendants of transatlantic slaves ought to receive individual financial reparations. Uh the same person, to differing degrees, most white people are racist. Um and yeah, so that's I can I can agree to that to the to the degree that you say um a white person in a majority white culture um could go along with the majority bias of the majority, and whether explicitly or implicitly have all sorts of bias, um, I'd just be reticent to attribute that to the race more than to the majority um nature of that white person who happens to live in a white white society. I I personally think it's unhelpful to bring race into that. Um, I think all kinds of people can be racist in all kinds of ways. And and so my my argument is um not to have a narrower definition of racism, but to actually have a more expanded definition of racism. I think it's very helpful to think in terms of you know that baptismal liturgy of um you fight valiantly against sin, the world, and the devil. Um that um the things that are against us and the things against which we strive are individual sin, but then these world structures that are political and social in nature, and then there's this demonic realm. And so I think we don't want to have just a narrow definition of sin, so it's just me and my personal discrimination. I'm I'm totally with you, number 343, I'm totally with you. If you want to say there can be systemic racism, there can be unjust structures. I'm totally with you, number three, four, three. Are you gonna be with me on this other definition of sin that's also the individual sin thing? Because I think at that individual level, um, I just want to go back to a Bog standard kind of Martin Luther King Jr. definition of racism. That when you judge me by the color of my skin and not the content of my character, that too is racist. So um so I'd I'd have pushback against number two. And then uh opinion number three kind of followed on from that. Um uh but again, it it kind of spoke in in this way about white people uh in general. White people are more offended by being called racist than they are with the existence of actually racism. Um yeah, that that's true. I mean, people have pointed to white fragility, people like Robert D'Angelo, who's made a lot of money with with um number one book on uh Amazon about white fragility. That's that's a thing. Um and um that is a thing, but also a thing when you push push against the narrative of white people this and white people that, it might just be that you want to preserve a richer definition of racism than just going for the structural one. And you don't want to just have the individual one either, but maybe you want to have all kinds of um definitions of racism. And then number four, I I kind of agree with number four. Again, if you take the racial overtone out of it, um white evangelical Christians who always quote C.S. Lewis are intellectually lazy. Um I can totally I can totally get to that.
SPEAKER_00It's a bit bizarre as you say you take the racial overtone out of it. I mean, is it only intellectually lazy if you're a white evangelical Christian?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01If I was you know like a Indian evangelical. Yes. It's profound.
SPEAKER_00You know, black charismatic, you know, would it would it change? I don't that yeah, the content seems a bit strange there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So yeah, lots of lots of stuff is being racialized here. And then number five uh BME, B-A-M-E, that's uh black and uh Asian minority ethnic people, can be white supremacists in the same way that slaves can believe that slavery is just. And again, it's it's one of those ones like um have you ever noticed how blackface and drag might have relevant similarities? Okay, well, maybe we need to think about that more. But it's that's very inflammatory as a way of putting those two things together. Um I'm glad these views are out there so that we can engage with them though. Um, but then number six, this survey will unearth deeply held racist convictions. And this this is why uh I took notice of number 343. Um and and and I think I think there is uh a view out there that um to have a survey that's anonymous will just you know attract all the alt-right kind of bigots or whatever. Um but ironically, the the very next opinion um that number 343 shared after saying, I fear that this is going to unearth all sorts of um racist opinions. Um older white men are normally the problem.
SPEAKER_00There it is. But see, the thing that made me chuckle about this one, about the the this whole line was there is an as there's an assumption in this person that everybody well it's defin it all white people are holding all these racist views. And as I read through most of the comments, the line the the the the the the answer that's um predominant well no the the person whose views I felt were most overtly racist or racialized anyway. Yeah, maybe, yeah. Were the views we've just read out in this line because it was just like if you're white, this, white that. And and I said to you as well, my assumption is that this person is probably white as well. You know, obviously I'm making an assumption there. But as I said to you, and I mean you said you want to preserve the idea that uh if you're using uh an immutable characteristic of somebody to draw conclusions about them and whole groups of people, that is a racist thing to do or discriminatory thing to do. It struck me that out of most of the comments, this this these comments were the ones that did that the most. But as but the probably I imagine this person assumes they're the least discriminatory racist person. Whereas I came away feeling like they were probably the most discriminatory I'd read.
SPEAKER_01Well, and that that's all down to definitions, isn't it? What's what's our definition of racism?
SPEAKER_00Um I said to you let's that last one there, older white men are normally the problem. Okay. If I changed that and said young black men are normally the problem, I mean outcry. Um rightly, rightly so. And rightly so, rightly so.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because I read saying saying older white men are normally the problem, whilst it seems very socially acceptable to say at the moment, to me reads as nothing less than prob well, sexist and ageist and racist. Um if we're gonna talk about immutable characteristics, those that yeah, can't change any of them. Yeah. So I would say that that is just not saying just as bad necessarily, if we we want to look at the the history of things, maybe in this country. Yeah. Uh, but it's certainly it's not not racist. Yeah. You know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I guess the the the push cap pushback from number 343 might be um we've got very different definitions of of racism going on, you know.
SPEAKER_00Or maybe we're just white people who are more concerned about being called racist than actual racism. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I think my comeback to that would be no, I look at this and I I I'm not offended that you're calling me racist for being white. I think this is actual racism. That you're you're grouping all white people together and saying this or that about them, things which are negative. Um, and I think that is racism, and it concerns me that someone could could think that they are perhaps not racist or discriminatory when they're saying things like this. That they are to me, it it reads as someone who is blinded to their own racism and discrimination and to uh uh a darkness in their own heart. Um, you know, if I was saying this about white people, I'd be think yeah, you know, I I I I'd hope I'd be thinking there's something's gone wrong. If I was saying this about any culture, any culture at all, any race, whatever it might be, I would be warning, I'm hoping someone would be saying to me, you know, you need to ask yourself some serious serious questions, Paul, about why you think you can say about a whole race of people, regardless of who they are, they are like this or that. Um and just because you say it about white people doesn't mean it's not terribly discriminatory and and bad.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And even if it's only 10% as bad as when you flip the races, which I I'm I'm up for hearing an argument. You know, that's that's only 10% of the the kind of just discrimination that you would have if if the more powerful um class of person was was saying it about the weaker class of person structurally and societally speaking. You know, maybe maybe it's only 10% as bad, but you know, I I I think the goal is the you know, the the the way to fight racism is to have less of it.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00So let's just let's just try and have less of it. This is it's you this is not a time to fight fire with fire.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Hate doesn't drive out hate. Only love can do that. Um, you know, as Martin Luther King said, but um but uh and and actually one of the comments I don't I think I don't think it was from this person, I think it was from someone else, who uh a comment that I suppose made me think was to do with I think it was to do with some of the uh issues around change making change. And they were saying the the attempts to change things basically from the top down will not work. Um and whilst I think you know that there's there's definitely a case for fighting structures um structures are made up of people um and it is people's hearts that makes the difference. Um you know, is it any better if you if you've got a system that uh on the surface treats everyone equally but is full of people who still actually really hate each other? Um I'm not sure that's makes it hugely better. You know, maybe, maybe in terms of everyday opportunity, maybe it does. But I'm not sure it solves the problem. So I think actually we want to be dealing with people's hearts.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, I mean can I can I go for my third Martin Luther King cross? You know, go on. The law can't make me can't make a white brother love me, but at least it can. Stop him lynching me. And for that I'm grateful. You know. So yeah, yeah. There is that. There is that. Yeah, and I'm absolutely open to hearing that. Um this is this is what I mean. Like I I want to have, I want to, I want to consider those systemic categories. I think there is a category for the world, and that there's a category for sin, and there's a category for the devil. Um, and interestingly, I think I think um um evil at that level, at that spiritual level, only came up about three or four times in the survey, which which is interesting when actually you look at the world through you know biblical spectacles, and actually the devil is is he is the one who really is stirring, you know, stirring the pot and wanting us to hate one another. You know, so there's that level, and there are systemic structures and there's personal sin. Um, let's not have a smaller version of sin or my favorite, you know, um view of sin. Um, but let's have this expanded, richer view of sin where, you know, I am the chief of sinners, I'm gonna look at myself first. Um and yeah, and hopefully move on from there. But um our time is like way gone. Um we're definitely gonna come back um to this because um we we haven't we haven't even got to this book, the Bible. Um and we've got we've we've even prepared slides for you. There are three points and they all begin with the same letter.
SPEAKER_00So if that's not gonna get you coming back, I don't know what will. Um it does it does it really count as being beginning with the same letter when you've just started each point with the word the like I'm not sure you're gonna have that one.
SPEAKER_01Well, okay. At least yeah at least it's trifold.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um but uh we're definitely gonna get into um yeah, what is what is a truly Christian um view of speech? Because we're not just free speech absolutists, we're not we're not just um you know guys who listen to those podcasts and uh are interested in libertarian politics. I'm not interested in libertarian politics. And um like like I've said, you know, the times at which I've seen those handful of comments, which I think truly are unsayable, I've wanted to deal with it at the level of church, at the level of church discipline, at the level of pastoral care, um, not so much at the level of calling the cops and that sort of thing. But we'll we'll get into um how do we how do we have a truly Christian view of of speech? Um and you know, we'll we'll see that in in the Bible there's a difference between violence and words. In the Bible we'll see there's a difference between sins and crimes, and in the Bible we'll see there's a there's a difference between um persons and opinions. Um and we must value the former infinitely. Um and opinions uh are up for very rigorous integrat interrogation and debate. But um we'll we'll have a look at a a theological view of uh some of these things in the next episode. Um but uh if people want to check out this uh survey, um, you'll have to go to our YouTube channel. And while you're there, why don't you subscribe and hit the hit the like button and uh go down into the description box and you'll get a link to this Google Sheet and you can see um some of the some of the opinions and and you know what do you what do you think people will find as they you know if they if they spend 15 minutes having a look through this survey, what what what do you think the outcome will be, Paul?
SPEAKER_00Um I think I think that the ones that will generate most discussion will be the ones that are that little bit different. Um so as as you know, we had the kind of eight typical replies, or we had ten typical replies with only eight, but you know. Um the um in a sense reading through those kinds of answers w was less interesting because you were kind of like, oh, it's another one that says abortion is wrong, fine, you know, great, okay. Um the ones where people say something a little bit more left the field or just outside the box or something you weren't expecting at all, or like you say, makes you kind of go, Oh, I'd never thought of it like that. Those are the ones that I think will catch people's eyes and maybe generate discussion, you know. Perhaps particularly if you're in a conservative evangelical type church or a church leader, maybe some of those hashtags that you know you mentioned earlier, Glenn, that highlight things in the church, maybe those will be particular interest. Um it'll be interesting to me. I'm interested to see what other people make of it. Um and the kind of discussions that come out of it.
SPEAKER_01Um and if you find an even worse kind of opinion in there and I can't believe they didn't mention number 787, um, yeah, we we might have we might have missed that on the way through.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, it would literally only been two of us trawling through all of this.
SPEAKER_01Um it's quite difficult to keep a track of, so yeah, it gave us it gave us an increased appreciation for the social sciences and uh yeah, all that's involved in uh designing a good survey and all of that. Uh so if you want to hear uh our next instalment, where we've got so much more uh to talk about from this survey and uh from a Christian response to it. Um so do make sure that you are subscribed on YouTube. Uh, do make sure that you're subscribed to the podcast on your favorite podcatcher. Um and do like us on all the socials. We are Speak Life UK on Twitter and Instagram and uh on Facebook, and we are Speak Life Media on YouTube. But thanks so much for joining us this time, and we'll catch you really soon. Bye bye. Bye.