Hello and welcome to the Speaker Podcast. My name is Glenn Scrivener, so glad to have your company. On today's episode, Paul Feasy and myself will talk about what is going on in the world. Have you noticed there's quite a lot going on in the world, and so much of it seems like it is out of control. What is really going on? Well, uh, we decide to have a look at the problems and we lay all of the problems at Christianity's feet. Why not? Uh Christianity is responsible for the building of the West, and actually, as we have wandered from Christian civilization and Christian truth, uh, so we have wandered into particular problems that have a particularly Christian shape to them. But as we have wandered from the roots of Christian faith, so the fruits have gone bad. What are some of those roots? Well, Paul and I are going to discuss them in a minute. Christianity is one, totalising, two, universalising, three, principalizing, four, internalizing, five, revolutionizing, and six, equalising. And from those six principles, uh, we have secularized the Christian understandings of these, and they have gone a little bit skew if. As they say where I'm from in the world. In Australia, we say skew if you say skew if? Let me know if you say skew if. I'd love to hear from you. Without further ado, let's talk to Paul Feesey about Christianity is the problem.
SPEAKER_01Well, hello everyone, welcome to the live cast. Although we're not quite so live at the moment, but we are still trying to get some of this content out to you every week. Um, at the moment, we're gonna be thinking today a little bit about some of the events that have been going on in the news recently, um, particularly in relation to um the kind of uh Black Lives Matter movement and those kind of issues there around the rights of black people, but also some of the issues that have come up in regards to transgender rights, uh, in the view of some of the things that JK Rowling uh has said recently um as well. We're gonna be thinking about how actually, in some ways, Christianity has caused many of those issues, but also we're gonna be thinking about whether Christianity is actually the solution to some of those issues. So um, my name is Paul Feasy, and as always, I'm here with Glenn.
SPEAKER_02Hello everybody. And uh we're we're gonna divide instantly uh over JK Rowling or rolling, which is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I knew as soon as I said it, I was like, yeah, I don't know if I've gone down the right road there. Rowling, rolling.
SPEAKER_02You you people, you get this wrong all the time, and this is this is the problem with the world. What you just did. It's a symbol of your privilege, and yeah. Um yeah, let's let's fight. Let's fight over a pronunciation. We may as well.
SPEAKER_04Why not? Yes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. This is this is the state of play at the moment. There's a yeah, there are a lot of tribes out there, and um yeah, and there are some just causes out there as well. And how do you how do you navigate um through these issues of of justice, and how do you how do you fight for a righteous cause without being self-righteous, and how do you fight for a cause without being violent, and yeah, um we're all trying to figure that out.
SPEAKER_01And so one of the things we've been talking about, and I mentioned it at the beginning, is um this idea that so much of this possibly has been brought about because of Christianity anyway. Oh, yeah, it's shocking. Yeah, it's all the Christians' fault. So, which you know, as hearing that, some people might go, say what now? Uh what what are we talking about, Glenn? Why why on earth would we think that is the case?
SPEAKER_02Well, everything is Christianity's fault. So why wouldn't this be? Um just just picking up on the whole Tom Holland thesis that uh Christianity has built the West, although it's not just Tom Holland that says things. And you know, on this show we've discussed the work of uh Vishal Mangalwadi, uh, who was uh you know a philosopher um from the subcontinent who is noticing that the the West um is built differently to the rest of the world and what might be the difference. And uh he sees ah, the Bible, Christianity, is at the heart of it. There's lots of people who've noticed how very different the West is and how the West itself has shaped global politics and and um how we how we think about everything. Um and so everything is Christianity's fault. So why wouldn't the current mess be Christianity's fault? And and I think it kind of is, and um, Christianity is the answer to those problems. Um I I think you know the so often the conversations that are had in the West are converse uh are kind of almost intramural disputes within the Christian church. Um, it's just the language has been totally secularized, and uh it's been divorced from the Bible, it's been divorced from church life, it's been divorced from talk of Jesus and of being united together in Jesus, working these things out. But so many of the principles of the Bible have been divorced from the Bible, divorced from church, divorced from Jesus, given a secular gloss. And Tom Holland's kind of thesis is everything that we hold dear in the West is the fruit of Christianity. If Christianity is the roots, then the Western world is the fruits. But can we continue to have the fruits when we have severed ourselves from the roots? And his answer is increasingly uh no, we can't. Um so what we're gonna have a look at is the ways in which Christianity is the problem, and by that I mean there are principles that have shaped the West. Um, but now that they've been divorced from the root by Jesus, they become secularized and we we we end up fighting over these principles in really unhealthy ways. Um, but the solution will be come back to the roots. So yeah, that's what I mean.
SPEAKER_01Great. Okay, well, should we that that kind of gives us a big big picture, but should we delve into some of the more specific ways in which we we think that's occurred?
SPEAKER_02Right, right. And I think number number one on the list, Christianity is totalizing, right? Christianity is totalizing in that um Christians have this vision that Jesus is Lord, creation's voice proclaims it. Um, and that everything, you know, Jesus picked up a seed and he said, Oh, that's a bit like me, you know. It's I don't know why I'm giving Jesus this voice, but me. Hang about, hang about, seeds. They preach the gospel. Um, I'm not quite sure Jesus spoke like that. Um, but uh there is this you know scene in John 12 where you know he says a seed goes down into the ground and dies and rises up again and produces fruit, a bit like me. And you know, so something as small as a seed preaches the gospel, and something as large as the sun preaches the gospel, the light of the world, and everything in between. And so, you know, um the Orthodox, you know, kind of have this big vision for icons and how um the divine comes to us through created reality, and and the Catholics have a big you know category for sacramental theology that the kind of God approaches us through created things, and and Protestants too, we have this idea of you know, there's the gospel hyphen everything, everything's gospel hyphenated. Um and and that's and you know, Jesus is law, creation's voice proclaims it, and and so everything in life is actually proclaiming a much grander truth, and so we'll look at this and we'll say, This is that. And I think theologically that's true, but okay, divorce that from the Jesus talk um and instead of talking about uh Jesus is Lord being the overarching ideology, instead in secularized systems, it becomes like ah Marxism and class struggle, right? That explains everything, and so this is that or it's the patriarchy, everything is the patriarchy, and this is an example of that. And so what happens in modern society is we've still got this same impulse to see everything as preaching to us, but we don't think it's preaching Jesus to us anymore, we think it's preaching ideology to us, and so every little instance is part of a grand narrative, it's that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01So, in the same way that we might, in our preaching, draw an illustration in life and say, and this just goes to show, doesn't it? It's exact you know, that's exactly just like what this passage is saying. You know, this shows us the truth of this, you know. In the same way with the things that we see happening in the moment, people seize on this and go, ah, these events show us that of course this is you know, there's a there's a patriarchy doing these things or um whatever it might be. Um and so actually in a sense that's come from a Christian kind of worldview, but like you say, divorced from any form of well from Christianity, really.
SPEAKER_02And it's and it's supercharged by social media. Right. Because social media makes me view everything as though there's no context, you know. Um so I see I see a snapshot. And you know, this this was just so um the emblem of this was the MAGA hat wearing kid from Covington High um last year. And we we covered him last year. I forget what his name was, but um the The MAGA guy. That all you need to know, you don't need to know his name. His individual identity means nothing. He was one of them, right? He was you know and that was the problem. That was the problem. You see this, and for those who don't know the story, at the end of the March for Life in Washington, D.C., there was a busload of kids from a Christian high school, Catholic high school, and they were waiting for their bus. And while they were waiting for their bus, um, this happened. So what went viral was a snapshot of a kid in a MAGA hat who seemed to be, was he was he smiling, or was he smoking, or was he sneering with his white privilege at a Native American who was banging a drum? Um, and just the snapshot went viral. And out of context, everyone saw that picture, and it looked like this white privileged kid sneering at minorities. And instantly everyone knew what was going on because it's an emblem of everything. That, you know, that one image is everything that's wrong with the world. This is that. And that's that's what social media is always doing. This is that. And I was I was in a Twitter back and forth about um, I think it was when I discussed about Dominic Cummings, and I sort of said, hey, hang on, everybody, let's let's beware self-righteousness. It it you know that that is a thing, and let's let's not just jump onto every Twitch fork mob um that's that's going. And somebody sort of pushed back and said, but you know, surely there's a time when you stand for a righteous cause, and surely there's a time, you know, and and my first thought was remember Covington High. Remember it's you know, it feels very urgent to say something and to denounce this, because that this is clearly that. Um, but remember Covington High and remember that when it comes to politics and things that are lesser, this is not necessarily that at all. And I think that's partly why um the issue of statues like really matters as well. Like statues are obviously symbols and they are invested with greater meaning. And you could sort of look at these battles over statues as, oh, isn't it ridiculous we're getting head up about you know a little bit of cast iron or you know a block of marble or whatever it is. Um, but no, like we live in a world in which this does refer to that. We live in a world of deep symbolism, in which created things carry far greater significance than just the stuff that they're made out of. We live in that kind of universe, and so it is it, you know, it's not surprising that a revolution of ideas will lead to the toppling of statutes. Um revolutions always involve iconoclasm. Um so you know, just just think of the Protestant Reformation, and you know, you you can't go to a cathedral in in the UK without seeing, oh, there's there's there used to be a whole bunch of statues here. What happened? The Puritans, that's what happened. You know, there were um the Protestants, those hot props, um got got a few ideas in their head and thought, no, we mustn't invest significance in this image because this image is preaching a false kind of a gospel, and so we need to we need to smash it. Um it's an incredibly Christian thing to do, to smash images. Right.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And we're we're seeing it, you know. Um these icons must fall. Um it's kind of a hyper Protestantism, really, um, that's going on. But and and and Christianity, you know, leads to that, where we are we are part of this revolution called Christianity that's that's unfolding itself, and um the the smashing of statues is you know in in a tradition that that stretches back hundreds of years.
SPEAKER_01So yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's the first point.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and then the next next one is this idea that Christianity is universalizing um in the sense that um Christianity comes along and kind of says to people, here is you know, Jesus is the only way, he is the truth, um, there is no other way. Where and so you you either you either follow Jesus and that's that's the right thing to do and the thing to believe, or you don't do those things and then actually you're outside, you're not you're you're not in, you know, um you're in the in the wrong place, so to speak. Um whereas before Christianity, apart from Judaism, it would have been very common for people to have just been like, well, you know, you you've got your gods, I've got my gods. Um you you can you know I might even take some of your gods and add them to my my pantheon or whatever, you know. And um the idea of kind of there might be a truth, uh a true god, a true you know, thing to believe and uh something else not being the case, um wasn't wasn't really so there so much. Um whereas Christianity has sort of brought that in. And I guess it's what we see online is that that people there's very much um in this own age uh a view that there is the right thing to think. And it's not, you know, well we'll just agree to differ, and you think this and I think that actually, if you think wrong, you know, if you think differently to me, that is wrong.
SPEAKER_02You have wrong think. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Wrong think, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um you need to change you need to repent.
SPEAKER_01Then yeah, then you're outside of the the group, outside of the the community, um, outside of what's acceptable. Um it's not the case that we can all just get along and believe what we want to believe. You have to believe the right thing.
SPEAKER_02So I've got a prosely I've got to proselytize you.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, to some extent. But I don't know whether anyone cares about that. Is anyone trying to change anyone's mind online? I don't think anyone is. I think people just want to smash each other down, don't they? Do people want to change their opponents' minds online and say, come and think what we think?
SPEAKER_02Yes. You get that you get that same problem within the church, though, don't you? I mean, we we feel the pressure to change, you know, we we feel the pressure to evangelize and to get people to think what we think, which is that Jesus is Lord. And and so we we feel the pressure to speak up for Jesus in the workplace or among our family or whatever. Um and and I think that has become secularized as well. Like, and even if we're not going to convince the other person, we at least need to make the demarcation and say, this is right think, that is wrong think. Um it's you know, you we can't just all get along.
SPEAKER_01Um, and that's maybe come out recently with the the uh JK rolling rowling, rowling, rolling, rolling, rowing. Um you know, her her comments about um uh around transgender issues um and kind of feminism um and where some of those things clash uh obviously sparks uh uh a bit of out you know quite a bit of outrage from some quarters. Um but the thing that's amazing is that you've had people like Daniel Radcliffe and Rupert Grint who are in the Harry Potter movies have to kind of come out and say, you know, we we have to say that we disagree and we think what she said is not right, and so on and so on. I mean, which is amazing, it seems really bizarre. I don't know why we we're interested anyway, you know, you know, why we why why we would expect them to have to say anything um based on what you know she herself has said. I mean, you you're not gonna you know, as I said to you earlier, like if if Stephen King says something controversial, we're not gonna ask Jack Nicholson to give a comment on it because he was in the shining, you know, like who cares, quite frankly. Um but there is this sense, isn't there, that they had to come out and say, we're not on that side of the we're not on that side that she is, you know, because we think that is wrong. What she's saying is the wrong thing. We want to clearly show we're saying the right thing. Um and and that and that, like we say, has its roots in a kind of there is a right way and a wrong way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So why why couldn't Daniel Radcliffe just let that slide and just you know? Um, but yeah, and and why in the comments, as JK Rowling has come out and said, um, you know, I stand with Maya or any number of statements where she, you know, she is so clearly making a principled stand on behalf of her feminist ideals, but no one who disagrees with her is saying, um, I understand. On the one hand, yes, there are feminist concerns. On the other hand, there are also trans rights concerns. And can we weigh these rights against it? Like, no one is saying that. It's just like instantly she's a turf, she's a bigot, she's a phobe. Um, because yeah, she is outside the camp. Um, she has said the wrong thing and and you know, must be anathematized. And and again, there there is this impulse within Christianity that it that has always been universalizing. There is the there is this one truth, and you're either with the one truth or you're wrong. Um and we'll we'll see, you know, later on how a true appreciation uh for the heart of Christianity redeems that particular feature. But when you divorce that feat feature from everything else in the gospel, um then it it leads to um it leads to the need to constantly be proselytizing, the constant the the need to constantly assert your side because the other side cannot be right. Um and you just you can't let you can't live and let live. Um and uh I uh I put on Twitter uh this week, you know, for those who still have not made their minds up on who to back uh between Rowling and Radcliffe, you know, Radcliffe, whose career was made by Rowling, she was the writer, he was the actor. Um, you know, let's assign some prior probabilities to Rowling or Radcliffe having the more thoughtful view um on these issues of balancing rights. Um Rowling is an author, a writer, she creates worlds. Um, Radcliffe as an actor, dressed up, told where to stand, and told exactly what to say, because Rowling has written every syllable of what he's about to say. Like, who is going to be more thoughtful in their appreciation of these issues? But anyway, any any excuse to play this clip from Seinfeld because I think this uh this distinction between writers and actors is just hilarious.
SPEAKER_00You know, I don't know why we're so fascinated with actors in this culture. They haven't got a thought in their stupid bedhead hairdo mini-brain. Why we must honor this man why he pretended to be Bob Johnson?
SPEAKER_02I'll take any excuse to play that clip. I just this thing is it's brilliant. Um and apologies to all my actor friends, I guess. You're very pretty. You are, you're very, very pretty.
SPEAKER_01Glenn Glenn says, Don't send us your thoughts on it because uh you don't have any thoughts of your own anyway.
SPEAKER_02If you'd like me to write for you your thoughts, and I'm sure you'd you'd you'd deliver it just beautifully. But um, yeah, thank you, actors. Um, anyway, we we need to crack on because um yeah, we we always we always do these shows in which we have you know the top ten of something, and we get to point number three by about the 55 minute mark. Anyway, um point point three on here is why Christianity is the problem with everything that's going on in the world, Christianity is totalizing it. Universalizing and thirdly, it's principalizing. And that is like we prioritize beliefs, and we think there's a flow from faith to works. And obviously, this is the very forefront of a Protestant's mind. We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone. It always flows out in deeds. But that's that's kind of in every branch of Christianity, there is that um flow from faith, which is the tree, to the fruit, which is the deeds. Um therefore, within Christianity, there's always this impetus to put doctrine right at the heart of all things. It's really important what you believe. Um, therefore, ideology becomes huge, and even to the point, and now that you know we've entirely severed ourselves from our Christian roots, um, it's just fascinating that today um the fact that someone might have labored for racial reconciliation in their local community, the fact that they might have um given themselves in service for the poor doesn't matter. If you have the wrong view, we will tear you down. You know, it's the principle of the thing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that's where you know when we see the the the stuff at the moment to do with uh Winston Churchill. You know, a lot of that, you know, the there's questions there around um you know Churchill's views on you know other races and you know called a racist. Um and and it's quite quite possible. I mean I don't know enough about it, but it's it seems like it's very possible that yes, he held some views uh that were would make us deeply uncomfortable. You know, we might consider to be deeply racist views. Um if you leave it at that, that's you know, like that's kind of it, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02So I think like Churchill held the wrong views. He totally held the wrong views in in in lots of different ways. Um, as no doubt we hold the wrong views um when judged by the standards of a hundred years hence. Like, no doubt, we've got no doubt about that. Um but uh he he did kind of stand up against the greatest racist that mankind has seen for the last hundred years. Um and he was instrumental in stopping the greatest racist that the world has seen for the last hundred years. Um but you know, in some people's minds, um, that doesn't matter so much as the fact he held the wrong views. Um and I just I just loved on Twitter there was a guy who um there was a photo of of the Twitter, the the Churchill statue that had Churchill's name crossed out and just put was a racist underneath. And that that was the vandalism of the Churchill statue. And and the the tweeter just said, um, if you think Churchill was a racist, you should you should have seen the other guy. Um but it it seems to me like that that's an example of um it doesn't matter what you do, you had the wrong ideology, you know, you you had the wrong beliefs, and faith trumps works.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Profoundly Christian view, actually.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, very much so, very much so.
SPEAKER_02Well, I hate to interrupt myself, even as I'm making such excellent points, but I'll make an exception for this. Hello. Um are you enjoying the Speaker Love podcast? I really hope that you are. Um, if you are, can I ask you to do one of two things? Um, do you subscribe to my emails? We'd love to get you on the list and love to let you know what's happening. For instance, we just released a poem last weekend called Numbers. It's doing really well on YouTube, and we'd love you to help it do even better on YouTube. But you might not even know about such a resource if you're not subscribed to our email. So you can go to speaklife.org.uk slash sign up and you can add your email address to that, and we will keep you in the loop of all that's going on. Um also could you perhaps stand with us financially? Could you give even a one-off gift or perhaps even a regular gift towards the ministry at Speak Life? All that we do depends on the generosity of people like you, and perhaps you are giving towards us, and if so, we are just so grateful uh that you believe in us enough to uh invest some of your own money in all that's going on here at Speak Life. We exist to really equip the church to reach the world for Jesus, and if you could give us a hand in any way possible, that would really help us. Anyway, back to this back to the program, back to some of my witterings and Paul's great wisdom.
SPEAKER_01Okay, what about the uh next one then? This idea that Christianity is all about internalizing. So actually, it's all about so so in the Christian worldview, actually it wasn't simply I mean, there's a bit of opening up the last one here, but it wasn't simply what you did, but actually, um it wasn't so we're not so much here talking about beliefs, but more about your heart, you know, what is actually going on in your heart when you do things. So, you know, Jesus yeah would would condemn the the Pharisees, wouldn't he, for kind of outward religious acts which you know actually in inside made no difference, you know, they were just like whitewashed tombs. Um and so this idea that actually what goes on in our hearts is important is something that is spilled over into um modern day stuff as well, isn't it? And we see that I guess particularly with um the way people assume the motives of someone else. So even even if people do do the the right thing, um or seemingly the right thing, people can still not be happy with it because they will assume that people's heart was not in the right place. Um so why why didn't you change your Instagram photo to uh uh just a black square or a black background or whatever? Um why didn't you black out? Yeah. Yeah, it must be because you are racist, you know. It couldn't there couldn't be another reason, right? You're it must be you're racist. Or why did you do it? Well, you know, yeah, you might have done it and that might have looked good, but actually we know that you don't really mean it. It's just you trying to look good, you're just virtue signaling to other people. So even the even the very acts, you know, the same kind of acts, will be called apart based on what people are assuming is going on in people's hearts, and that itself is a you know, the idea that what going on in your heart matters is very much a Christian Christian idea, I guess.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. And you know, in the in the hands of the pure judge of all mankind, um that that is um uh a totally true, right, and healthy doctrine. But in the hands of any other judge in the world, who who am I going to trust to judge the thoughts and attitudes of my heart? Um you know, only God.
SPEAKER_01And and you you see the difficulties in it, don't you? You know, that particularly at the moment you see the phrases being thrown around like, you know, silence is violence. So if you're you know that your silence online is about these issues is deafening, um, those kind of things. So therefore, if you're not saying something, you must be well, you must be racist or you're part of the problem. Um but then equally, you know, people will throw back in the other way and just say, well, you know, you you you're always just banging on about this issue or that issue online. Um but you you know you don't really care. It's just you putting up the right things to be seen by men. Um you know. To quote a phrase, yeah. To quote, you know, quote someone. Um you know that that I think you we can see how there there are those overlaps there about how this kind of Christian worldview has has seeped into this, but obviously stripped stripped Jesus out of it.
SPEAKER_02So which I think big because in classical antiquity, you know, as long as you're doing the right thing, people cared far less about whether there was an integrity between what you said and what you did, between your public life and your private life. That that mattered far, far less uh to other cultures. But then you get a preacher in the middle of history saying, You guys are whitewashed tombs and coining the phrase hypocrite and all that, and suddenly it becomes so much more important. And these days we're we're very sensitive to motive, to the point where we want to have hate crimes, um, so that if your crime is motivated by an extra layer of hatred in your heart, in you know, racism in your heart or whatever, um, then that that is an extra layer to your crime, which sounds great in theory, but then it makes it makes the police and the judiciary into uh arbiters of thought crimes. And and and suddenly you need to you need to be able to have a window into people's souls and to be able to discern that there was racism, you know. Um, I'm very prepared to um concede that that police officer kneeling on that man's neck that it was racially motivated. I'm very willing to concede that, but the video itself doesn't show that. You've got to fit that video into a larger narrative. And okay, I'm all ears. Tell me about the larger narrative. And you know, let's let's let's hear the facts on the matter. Um, but what a video does not show and cannot show is you know the racemeter going on in the heart, you know. Um but I I understand totally because racism is a foul sin. And the the sins of the heart are absolutely grievous and they're grievous to the Lord. And so I absolutely understand that impetus. It is a stunningly Christian, you know, motivation to look at motive, right? But um to put um the judging of the thoughts and the attitudes of the heart into the hands of the state, um, well, there's there's problems there. Um here's a here's a fifth impulse that Christianity has given to the world. Um Christianity is revolutionizing. Um, and and by that I mean that um, you know um Jesus preached that the first shall be last and the last shall be first. And then he put that preaching into practice because he the first climbed down and put himself in the last place and took the punishment for us sinners and then rose up again from the dead so that we who are last shall now be first. It's utterly revolutionary. Um, and you know, as Tom Holland has said, you know, if you want to found your civilization on Christianity, you are building on a fault line. Um, because it's profoundly revolutionary to build your teaching, build your civilization on a guy who said the first should be last and the last should be first, and who himself is the king who became a slave so that we slaves can rule in righteousness. Um it is fundamentally revolutionary. And at the heart of that revolution is to um, just like Christ, to acknowledge your privilege and to use your privilege in the service of the weak and the marginalized. Um, and and that is a beautiful thing. It's a it's such a gospel-shaped thing to um to see whatever powers you've been given, and whatever blessings, whatever benefits, to give thanks to God and to use those in the service of those who don't have as much. Um and that is um that is a good that is a good thing. But um so so when people talk about checking your privilege, there's something profoundly biblical about that. Um and we'll we'll have a look at some of the the biblical warrant for checking our privilege in a minute. But divorced from the Bible, things can go wrong a little bit. Uh did you did you see that picture on on Instagram?
SPEAKER_01Uh only secondhand, yeah, only as it was passed around.
SPEAKER_02Just describe it. Describe the picture for for those who um may not have been blessed by this particular image.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so it's just an image of a uh a young girl, um young white girl. I'm not sure exactly how old she is. Do you do you know exactly how old she was?
SPEAKER_02Oh, I don't know. She looks about four, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Okay, yeah, so very young. Um kind of taking the knee, I think, on the doorstep of a house uh with a sign that had a uh the word privileged and an arrow pointing up to her um there, and seemingly it was something her mother had kind of orchestrated there.
SPEAKER_02Orchestrated is the right word.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think so. I find yeah, I mean, so it's very unlikely that that four-year-old did that.
SPEAKER_02Mommy, what can I do to check my own privilege? Well, honey. You tell me, honey. No, no, no. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and it's the yeah. I I was um walking down the road in Eastbourne on Saturday, and there was a girl ahead of me with a backpack, and on the on the back of the backpack, she'd made her own poster that said, I've checked my privilege, you should check yours. No, no, I admit I have privilege, you should check yours. Um and um and she was off to a you know a protest in in in Eastbourne in solidarity with Black Lives Matter. And um, and like I say, I think I think acknowledging and understanding your privilege and sacrificing whatever privileges you have for the sake of those who don't have those privileges. Um, if it comes out of a pos out of a position of gratitude and grace, um then God loves a cheerful giver and and let's do it. Um but I just I just found myself wanting to start a conversation with with her. Um, like what is the place for gratitude in this worldview? You know, I've I I admit I have privilege. Um have you checked yours? It just it it smacked to me of dealing in guilt more than in grace. So that I consider my privilege as something to feel guilty about, not something to express gratitude for.
SPEAKER_01Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I just don't think there's any sustainable revolution that's gonna happen based in guilt rather than gratitude, you know. Sure. Um and I just I just have a I have question marks about privilege, um, because can we can we acknowledge that privilege runs in multiple directions along multiple lines?
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02And even within the race lines, um, there are multiple races and there are multiple um places to be within this class called my race, you know. Um, and you know, John McQuarter is a uh professor of linguistics at Columbia University in in the States, and and he just runs an interesting thought experiment. He just he just says, okay, um, he says to his students who are all kind of 19, 20 years old, and he says, um, would you rather be um uh would you rather be black or fat in today's culture? Would you would you rather be a fat white guy or a trim fit black guy? What what what would you rather? And the students don't really know it. I don't know the answer to that, but it it kind of you know it points in the direction that privilege is not obvious and it can't be assigned to an entire class as a whole.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02He asks another question to these 19-year-olds. He says, Would you rather have um flawless black skin or pockmarked acneed white skin? What would you rather? Um, and again, that and the students are split on this, and I'm split on this, and I I don't know, but you know, the the question itself points to the fact that privilege runs along a lot of different lines in a lot of different directions. Um, and it's and it's not it's not always helpful to to deem that one class of people in in their entirety, you know, does does a poor Romanian single mum have the same white privilege as Donald Trump has, or you know, like sure, yeah. Um and to to divide ourselves up very in those very um clumsy ways is not going to be particularly helpful. And that's just that's just the race question. There's all sorts of other privilege, and of course, class is a massive issue of privilege. Money, wealth is a massive amount of privilege. Um, religious identity, um, there are there are some religious identities um that have a lot more privilege in this world than others, and then within those religions, there, you know, um, and so it it can be a really clumsy tool um to just talk about white privilege or black privilege or you know, whatever. Um so yeah, when you when you divorce um this principle that yeah, whatever blessings I've been given, I should use for the service of others. When you divorce that um from its Christian context, I think it then starts to take on all these kind of kind of class and racial overtones that are unhelpful.
SPEAKER_01Yep, I agree. And then I so this is the last last one of our points about why Christianity is partly the cause of this, uh, is that Christianity is equalizing. And I guess so, I guess partly what we're saying here is that you know, from Christianity has come the idea, uh the emago day, everyone being made in the image of God, um, or more you know, in the New Testament, you know, there is uh neither male nor female, you know, Jew nor Gentile. This notion that there is a uh uh everybody has value, um uh is is is what sparks a lot of these things today.
SPEAKER_02So we're again we're saying these are that is a good um but obviously it is now led it's what uh it lies behind a number of these things here, so and it's just so interesting how it begins in the Bible as we are one in Christ Jesus. So um notice notice that it's an an indicative, we are one in Christ Jesus, and notice that the word is not equal in Christ Jesus, it's something far deeper than equal, it's it's equal plus we are equal and united in a rich harmony that doesn't um demolish the distinctives between us, but actually includes our distinctives in um a chorus of voices that are more beautiful because they are distinct and different. But we are one in Christ Jesus, we are one in Christ Jesus. But within the Bible, okay, we are united in Jesus. As soon as you strip out all the religious language of that and just say we are equal before the law, you've lost so much in translation. Um, to say that I am we are one in the same Lord is quite different to saying we are equal under the same law. It's really important that we are equal under the same law. Really, really, really important. And that legal and political um implication of the gospel is one of the most beautiful fruits of the gospel. Um, but it's it's not the same thing as the the richer, deeper truth that the Bible has, that we are one in Christ Jesus. And what the danger is, is if if we just leave it at um we want to be equal under the law, but we don't want to be united in the Lord, what we will do is we will hold on to our distinctives as though um we could be apart from one another, and we will maintain that we need we need to be equal under the law. And so I'll stay in my tribe just as long as I have the same amount of stuff as this tribe does, and they have the same amount of stuff as this tribe does, and this is the kind of the kind of the justice that we that we are seeking. And I and I do I say this with with huge trepidation. I'm very, very happy to hear um pushback on this from anyone. Um, but the the slogan no justice, no peace, I totally understand it. And again, I think it comes from very deeply Christian understandings, um, very deeply um, you know, there is no peace that is not a just peace. And you can't say you have peace if there is injustice going on. I totally, I totally get that. But what I fear is that um when people say no justice, no peace, they want to first have justice, which is to consider um different tribes of people quite separately to ensure that each of them are at the same level of access to resources and legal aid and all that, all that kind of stuff, which I totally agree with. But I just I don't see that as um the first step, and then step two, we'll then consider peace. Only once everyone has the same amount of stuff, then we'll start to figure out figure out how we unite and have the harmony. I just I just don't think I don't think it's stage one, stage two. I think you've got to and and this is why you know when Galatians three says you are one in Christ Jesus, it starts with the peace. It starts with the the proclamation of that peace and then it works itself out in justice. And I totally agree that you can't say you have peace if there is injustice within that unified body. But I think I think I don't think it's step one, justice, step two peace. Yeah. I think it's you gotta come home to Jesus. Have that unity in Christ that works itself out in justice. But yeah.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_02We're getting on to solutions, aren't we? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01We've got to get solutions, and I reckon we're gonna have to move probably a bit more quickly at least.
SPEAKER_02We can, we can, we can we can move quicker.
SPEAKER_01Go on then. So we talked before, didn't we? So the the Christianity is totalizing, and that's part of the problem, but it's totalizing in what way is that part of the solution?
SPEAKER_02So it's it's totalizing in that, yeah, Jesus is the one truth that explains every other truth, but what explains everything is not an ideology, but a person. And he is a person who is incredibly inclusive. He's a person with his arms outstretched to the world, bleeding even for his own enemies. So there is one truth that explains every other truth, but it is not class struggle, right? And I think if that becomes the totalizing truth, then what can you have apart from struggle, revolution, and war forever, right? But the one totalizing truth that explains everything is a person, a person who is for you. And how can you doubt that he's any more for you when you see him on the cross? And so, you know, John 1, verse 9, the true light that enlightens everyone was coming into the world. That the there is there is one true light, and in his light we see light, um, but he is a person and his name is Jesus and he is for you. This is a totalizing truth that unites rather than divides.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and then in the sense that Christianity is something which is universalizing, um how uh how is that part of our solution?
SPEAKER_02Um in two in two steps, I think it's universalizing. Um, so you can you can see that the problem with Christianity is that it says I'm right and you're wrong. Um, but actually, the the truth at the heart of Christianity is we're all wrong. And we're only right in Jesus.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02So it's not my side good, your side bad. Actually, this universal truth that everyone needs to acknowledge is that um we are all bad and Christians are the worst, right? Um, judgment begins with the household of God, and we are the first ones that need to repent. And um, you know, Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of which I am the worst, says Paul in uh 1 Timothy 1. So um so as we go out with this universalizing truth, it it should actually be um number one, um, I am wrong just as you are. Uh and number two, Jesus is for you, so that even you in all your wrongness can be right simply by faith. Um, you know, it's it's actually the most inclusive universalizing truth that there is. Um, if it was a tribalistic universal truth, then yeah, me right, you wrong. But here is the gospel truth that is universally true. We're all wrong, and Jesus is for us all. That's that's again, that's a you that that's a truth that will unite rather than divide.
SPEAKER_01And then we talked about how Christianity is principalizing this idea of you know having a purity of belief. You know, faith. Faith is more important than your deeds and stuff.
SPEAKER_02And I think with that, you know, faith leads to deeds. And you know, the the whole book of James is this this whole idea, you know, you you say you have faith but no deeds, I will show you my faith by what I do. Or you look at Jesus saying, you will know them by their fruits. Um, so the the tree of faith is fruitful in life. Um and and therefore, um, I think a return to Jesus and the and the scriptures will see a much more healthy integration of, yeah, beliefs are really important, they are foundational. What you do flows from what you believe. Um, but it is a flow that cannot be divorced. Um, and so I I think a return to to Christ will see a much healthier integration of faith and deeds.
SPEAKER_01And then we were thinking about the the Christianity um is internalizing, so that uh emphasis on what's going on in your heart and motive there. Can I respond to that?
SPEAKER_02And I think if if we are very sensitive to heart motives, that is a good thing and a right thing. But I think we just need to acknowledge that there's only one judge who is um pure enough and has all the facts, you know, only God can judge me at at that level. Um I think the state can judge me in terms of my outward actions. And I expect the state to judge me in terms of my outward actions, but I don't think the state is um going to be able to um, you know, arbitrate on on what the the thoughts and attitudes of my heart are. And it's just very interesting. Um, the the human mind, we're we're always wanting to judge other people and um think of ourselves as better than other people. And in Romans 14, Paul looks at a whole bunch of different Christians and they're pointing fingers at one another and say, You you hold to the Sabbath, you don't hold to the Sabbath, you eat meat, you don't eat meat, you you know, observe special days, you don't observe special days. Um, and Paul actually says, Look, before his own master, he will stand or fall. And his master is able to make him stand. So just, you know, pull your head in. Um and and but you've got to have that vision that yes, motives are important, but I'm not the judge of the motives. Um, and there's someone I can trust to be the judge of those motives, so that I don't always try to have a window onto people's souls, which is the you know the quote from Queen Elizabeth about, you know, we can only have a religious settlement. We can only have the Elizabethan settlement if we just shut up about other people's motives, let God judge the motives. The ruler does not have a window onto people's souls. Um, so come back come back to church, you know, deal with the God who does judge motives, and then we can go out into the world and hopefully be less judgmental in the world.
SPEAKER_01And then we talked about Christian TV revolutionizing.
SPEAKER_02Because the first shall be last and the last shall be first. And and and I think there is something so right about checking my privilege. Um, so Romans chapter 15. Um Paul having talked about that Romans 14 stuff about the judgmentalism, he then said, We who are strong, we who have the right beliefs about food and days and and um uh all that stuff. We who are strong, we who have the right beliefs, we ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. Each of us should please our neighbors for their good to build them up. For even Christ did not please himself. But as it is written, the insults of those who insult you have fallen on me. Um so Jesus was wronged um for the sake of others, and we should be wronged for the sake of others. We should gladly take that on ourselves and sacrifice ourselves for others. Um, which is not the same as checking my privilege and feeling constantly guilty. It is giving thanks for whatever aspects of my life that are privileged and blessed, which is going to be loads. Whatever the scalar of the color of my skin, I have more than enough to give like infinite and eternal thanks for. Whatever the color of my skin, I have more than enough to give infinite and eternal thanks for. Um, and now, out of gratitude, let me serve others. And in that sense, check my privilege and let the first become last so that the last can become first. There's a revolution I can get on board with. That's that's the revolution that's sweeping the globe and that has an eternal future. Every other revolution will just come and go. But this this is the true revolution, and we can get on board with it. Come to church, you know. Hear Christ, pull yourself out.
SPEAKER_01And then finally, the idea of Christianity being equalizing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And again, the goal is not just equality. We should have justice, we should have equality. Let's strive for justice, let's strive for equality, but let's let's not lose sight of the greater goal, which is harmony, which is unity. So Revelation 7 is just amazing. You know, we've got every tribe, nation, and people and tongue are gathered together in eternity. And in eternity, our racial identities continue. That's fascinating. God does not obliterate racial identities. Um, so being colorblind is not the goal, apparently. Um, God's God's given us um a whole rainbow coalition of races out there, and he doesn't want us to be colorblind. There's there's something that's cool about every every single tribe, nation, people, and tongue in the world, and that's going to continue into eternity. But the goal is that we are united around Jesus Christ, um, united in feasting, um, which is not just that we all have the same sized room in the great heavenly mansion, it's that we all sit down at the same table and there is an interplay and there's a harmony and there's a unity between us. And I just I just don't know how else we will get racial reconciliation apart from Jesus. Like, how is that possible? How how on earth, you know, if we're, you know, because all these you know protests about race and and we should be thinking about race, it's it's an important subject. But the solution outside the church um is is all about just getting us all to the same station and not about uniting us in a kind of harmonious vision that will you know continue into eternity. Only Jesus has a solution uh for racial reconciliation, and we are one in Christ Jesus. We are founded on that principle of peace, and then we work out what the what the justice issues are. But I I don't see I don't see any hope for racial racial reconciliation outside of of Jesus. So let come home to Jesus, you know, where you sit down as brother and sister in the same family and united in the same Lord. That's that's that's a vision I can get behind.
SPEAKER_01Great. Well, I mean I think there's a lot of food for thought in there, and I I reckon um there'll probably be a a number of people if if they've uh you know able to kind of listen through those will have many things to say. So just like Glenn said, do kind of push back on some of these things, um, and do give your thoughts um on that and you know hopefully we'll do our best to respond to you in in comments wherever this kind of gets published. Um we'd love to hear from you on it, and you know, I've certainly got things to chew over from it as well.
SPEAKER_02So absolutely, absolutely. We we've had some great uh feedback uh from prior episodes as well, and um yeah, keep that uh keep that coming in. We are we are listening. And um yeah, so if um people want to keep in touch with us, uh what should they do, Paul?
SPEAKER_01Uh simplest way to keep in touch is follow us on all the usual social media platforms. So if you're watching on YouTube, do give us a subscribe and hit the bell if you can. That will keep you up uh up to date with things that come out. If you're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, you can follow us on all of those. Um, find our pages and uh profiles there. You can sign up for our weekly email as well by heading over to our website, speaklife.audituk, um forward slash sign up, I believe. Umdeed.
SPEAKER_02Sign up one word, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Sign up one word, yeah. So you'll be able to go there and put your email address in, and we just send out an email um mostly weekly. It just gives you a roundup of stuff we've been doing, what's going on in the in the life uh or the world of Speak Life, I should say, um, and any resources that have been out kind of in the last week or so podcast and videos. So good to keep abreast of those things there.
SPEAKER_02Brilliant. Including uh we released on the weekend uh a poem called Numbers, uh, where I do a poem that um uh compares the statistics of COVID-19 and abortion. Um and yeah, whereas COVID-19 uh has taken till June to kill half a million this year, uh abortion killed half a million by January 4th. Um and so um just using poetry to kind of uh raise those issues, and uh if you could give that a share around the place, um, it might start a conversation about that. That would be cool. Um, but we've spoken for far too long. Um, and I am the chief culprit. I am the chief of Simmons in that. Um, but thank you so much uh for your company. And uh guys, yeah, please do subscribe so you can listen to the next episode. But until then, we'll see you later. Bye bye.
SPEAKER_04Bye.