Welcome one and all to the live cast. My name is Glenn Scrivener, and as ever, I'm joined by Paul Feasy. But uh this week we've also got two uh very special guests. We've got uh Jason Roach and Richard Awayemi, and uh we're here talking about what the whole world is talking about. Uh who would have thought that uh coronavirus would be pushed off the front pages of the newspapers? Uh but the issue of race in the States certainly, but the issue of race uh in this country as well is uh hitting the headlines. And uh we want to think about our own context, we want to think about uh how brothers and sisters dwell together in unity and how we affirm our cultural differences. And so I I thought I'd uh get along uh two people who uh are used to talking about these things. We've got Jason and we've got Richard. And um why don't uh why don't I ask uh Jason to uh introduce himself uh first and and uh and then we'll uh we'll ask about Richard.
SPEAKER_03Well, uh I'm pastor of uh uh a church in Battersea on a housing estate called the Bridge. So that's what I spent uh majority of my time doing. I also work uh part-time for the Bishop of London as an advisor for her in public policy, that sort of stuff.
SPEAKER_02How Anglican are you, Jason? You know, if if if there's a sort of comedy We're gonna divide over denominations in this one.
SPEAKER_03But it's it's funny, the there's there's this phrase often used, you know, are you are you an Anglican evangelical or an evangelical Anglican? And I guess um it it's the evangelical that comes first. I find myself in this particular boat of Anglicanism, but I'm here because I do believe that the historic roots of Anglicans Anglicanism are just thoroughly reformed. Um there's a whole mixture of things going on at the moment, but uh but I think that the roots are thoroughly reformed, and I love the fact that it does try and hold together um a whole breadth of different uh orthodox views, but keeping some of the things that are maybe less primary in the background so that we can kind of try and move towards unity. And so I love that about the Anglican church.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and just before we get to that. So I managed to kind of not answer your question, but very Anglican, which means you're very, very Anglican. So what is what is what is church like? We've we've got this race issue um in mind as we talk about um uh today. So sort of racially, culturally, ethnically, what what does Sunday look like um for you?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so the church that I pastor is intentionally trying to be a multi-ethnic church, and uh on a Sunday it would be about 50% um people of colour, 50% uh white, uh mixture. So it's a mixture of people from Africa, uh African nations from the Caribbean and uh uh other places around the place. So it's a whole mixture of people, and also it's quite socially diverse. We're on a council estate, and so by its very nature, there are a number of people who are on long-term benefits, unemployed, mental health issues, uh, which aren't just uh don't just pertain to being on a council of state, but a whole range of different things, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And we'll talk to you a little bit later about um yeah, what it is you've done to be deliberately diverse and inclusive in in that way, um, in a second. But let's go across to Richard Awayemi. You're in you're in London in in uh in Hackney, is that is that where you live? Or that's certainly where your church isn't it?
SPEAKER_01No, no, no, no, no, that's where my church is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not too far from Hackney, but yeah, uh Hackney's where I where I worship on a Sunday.
SPEAKER_02You jump you jumped on that very quickly. No, no, no, not Hackney, not Hackney. I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_01No, no, no, not at all, not at all.
SPEAKER_02No, just making a clarification. Sure, sure, sure. And uh so so tell me about um church for you, Richard. What does that look like?
SPEAKER_01Church for us, um, so yeah, I'm at Hackney Evangelical Reform Church. Um for us, I guess it's previously I I just mentioned it, it looks like um probably yeah, previously it was about 90% over the age of 75, 80. Um over the course of maybe a few years, that's drastically changed, and now it's more like 90% under the age of 35. Um and the yeah, it's uh it's was founded by people from Montserrat. We've got a lot more Africans have entered the church. Um, but in terms of skin tone, we're we're all black, really, like at least 98% of us or so. We've got a few uh non-black members in attendance, but yeah, they we just not seem to be able to get many uh non-black members through the top through the door. So we'll be interested to hear what Jason has to say about um seeking out um diversity in that regard. But obviously, even the reasons as to why that's the case might even um emanate a bit more when we start to break down some of the issues that we're dealing with here. But um, but yeah, like that's church for me anyway.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and you're part of a collective called Black Barrea. You can go to blackbaria.com and you can tell you guys are reformed and biblical because your even your strapline is three points, all beginning with the same letter. Um, so you've got you're black, British, and biblical.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah, yeah. So so yeah, we're we're we're I don't I don't know if we want to all claim reformed in the in the purest sense, um, just because of you know, we're not all baptizing babies, though one of us is in particular. But um, but yeah, in terms of our background, again, we all flew out of the Pentecostal movement. Um, that's I guess where we all initially began to worship, and then over time we've all kind of shifted into the more evangelical spheres. Um and yeah, I guess BlackBeria is just seeking to create a platform for black uh British Christians to really engage with theology and to have things addressed in the culture that aren't being addressed elsewhere. And so a lot of us might go online, especially we found this quite early on when we started to really kind of, I guess, reform in theology or become more evangelical, but we started to listen to a lot more people like Piper or to uh D.A. Carson or to uh you know MacArthur or Steve Lawson or RC Swall or whatever. But the thing is they were never dealing with issues that were at home, you know, close to home. And so they wouldn't deal with a Brexit, they wouldn't deal with um Stormsey's album, uh Gang Signs and Prayer, you know, they wouldn't they wouldn't deal with those types of things. And so we wanted to really create a platform that was addressing these things from a biblical perspective, and every now and then providing purely theological, uh bite-sized, consumable chunks. So yeah, I'd like to see that, but done.
SPEAKER_04It'd be good to hear from you guys. Just if you could share a little with us of what is your kind of personal experience of of racism being here in the UK, and uh it may be different examples, but it'd be interesting to kind of hear what that's been like for you.
SPEAKER_01I let Jason go first.
SPEAKER_03Well, I I grew up um in South London and particularly in an area that was predominantly white, at least when I was uh young. And so when I was at school, used to being uh a minority uh in uh majority white sort of situation. And um uh to be honest, it was uh largely happy at school, but but things that were obviously distinct were stuff like people always wanting to kind of just touch your hair and have a feel of your hair. Uh so little things like you just had to get used to this, people kind of invading your personal space to kind of feel your hair, or telling jokes about the the denigrated black people and saying, but but obviously, present, you know, no offense, uh obviously uh Jason, you're an exception, sort of thing. That would be a normal uh sort of thing, but but generally pretty happy. I remember though in '93 when Stephen Lawrence was murdered, that being a real turning point in my own self-understanding. Because at that point, suddenly, uh, being black wasn't just something that meant you might be treated a bit differently and someone might just want to touch your hair. Suddenly, actually, people might really want to harm you because of the colour of your skin. And then into teenage years, just the reality of being stopped and searched by the police many, many times. I often say to people, being stopped and searched more times than I can remember. Uh, and that isn't everyone's experience, but that that was mine growing up. In particular, I remember being at uni going outside. This is this shows how long ago this was going outside to use a phone card boot. Uh because everyone's that was that, Jason. No mobile phones, you had to go out to make a phone call. You had to have a wild card.
SPEAKER_02Was this back in the 1900s, Jason? Is that wild? Can I confirm that rumor?
SPEAKER_03My pager had run out of factory. Cutting edge.
SPEAKER_01Couldn't get the smoke signals up that kind of thing. Jason's joking.
SPEAKER_03So I get outside, this is across the road from our halls of residence, Central Lambs, and uh a police van pulls up, 20 20 policemen get out of the van, stop there. I'm just carrying on. We're trying to make my phone call, thinking you can't be talking about me. No, stop, stop. I I put my hands up, come out of this uh booth, and um they say, you know, uh, you know, you've we think you've committed a crime, like you know, what crime? Well, someone fitting your exact description has just committed an offence. And they tell me that someone who was wearing a t-shirt and jeans and trainers uh has just committed a robbery, and so I had to escort them back to my halls of residence so to prove that I live there. And that sort of thing, in fact, just didn't surprise me. That's just a kind of that's a kind of normal level of experience in teenage years.
SPEAKER_02That that's obviously been at the level of sort of culture. At the level of church, have you felt discriminated?
SPEAKER_03I think I I think I personally have had a a really a good experience of church in some ways, and I think I've always felt that there have been people who've wanted to ask my opinion on things about how I'm feeling, and wanting to advocate for me personally. I don't that that probably wouldn't necessarily be my parents' uh experience, but that was that was mine. So just just the whole Windrush era thing coming over uh uh from the Caribbean and uh very much a whole generation experiencing that the doors were shut in terms of churches and then having to to make a way, having to find some other way in the midst of that situation. So so that their generation very much alienated from from church.
SPEAKER_04Richard, what about yourself?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think first I think it's a great question for because uh this kind of allows us to do away with a lot of the misconceptions that probably exist that if somebody's not been involved in crime or you know, or anything of the sort, that they have no interactions with the police per se. Um because yeah, that's just really not been my case. I I guess I've grown up in a slightly different um area. I was from East London to Jason and and just a different era as well. But yeah, my my experience has actually just been quite a difficult one with everything going on in the news at the moment. Um I just remember my wife asking me, like, is this why you hate the police? And and I just had to respond to her, like, do you know what? Like, I don't hate the police. And it's bad for me to give off that impression that I hate the police because I don't think that's the right way for a Christian to respond to um to those in charge. But it does, it does speak to like something of the sentiments of of what I've kind of experienced with them. I guess, you know, I've had few interactions with them, but it's always been like Jason said, it's been a stop and search randomly for no good reason, um, even though we're 40 times more likely to get stop and searched. Um, and so Jason was wearing jeans and shirt, but you know, I'm sure that many other people were wearing a jeans and a shirt on his way back to the campus halls, but that wasn't, they didn't get stopped in the process as well. Um it's been things like them coming and breaking down my front door um in the middle of the night and you know breaking down a second door inside the house and leaving my mum hyperventilating, calling out my name, trying to get hold of me and me in handcuffs, um, with them on my shoulder and on my back and and and and putting me in pain, severe pain. Um, and I'm saying that I'm not the person they're looking for, and I've got my ID on the table, but they're just ignoring it. And then eventually, when they do let me go, like, you know, everything's fine, and they leave us with no door at 11 p.m. at night and and go home. Like that's for them, that was normal. And that was, you know, all our neighbors are seeing that we we've now got cardboard in front of our door, and that's just a that's just a that's just a standard thing. But for me, that didn't surprise me. Um, or them arresting, like I had a I had an uncle that came down from America, and you know, he came on like let's say us like on a Saturday, and we were in Tesco, and I remember they arrested him. Um, they said he looked, he fitted the bill, somebody who had um committed rape. And we were saying that when did this happen? They said it happened on Friday. We said he wasn't in the country. Um, we argued, we argued, they didn't let him go. They held him for days. Um, they followed us home, they took stuff from our house saying that it might belong to him so they could take it for DNA. You know, we didn't we didn't get any of that stuff back. The only reason he eventually got released is because somebody else confessed. Um, and they confessed because they thought they'd been arrested for that when actually they were arrested for something completely different. You know, it's that kind of stuff that has constantly coined the way that we've um, you know, that I've interacted with them when I was young. And even till today, like I've I'm now older, I now have my own house. I have um two young girls, both two and below. Um, I have a wife, etc. And yet I can pull up outside of my house and have police pull up next to me and say, What are you doing in this area? Um and I'm just like, I own this house. Um and I and and and I'll ask them why they followed me, and they say, Oh, because um your brake light's not working. I'll press the brake light and it's working. And I'm just like, you know, I don't understand um, you know, what I merited to get to this point. And they just said, get it checked, and then drove off. But the whole point is that consistently, and this is not just me, but it's my friends, it's people my age, um, etc. But we've been consistently harassed, um, villainized, you know, and that's by the police alone. Um, and on to your other question, even about in the church, etc. Um, definitely different. I think what you see in the church is maybe going to be more likely of what you kind of see in the world, maybe to an extent, um, and not from like the police force being excessive with their power um and being able to abuse their power, you know, that they've been given to actually serve the community for good. But more so just in like I don't want to I don't even want to say microaggressions, because I don't I don't know that necessarily what people are seeking to do is be aggressive, but it's but it's but it's all of these um slight and subtle things that people assume and say and do consciously, subconsciously, um, without realizing that you know that's actually often either degrading or um or it you know it tries to shut you up or it makes uh it puts it assumes things about you that just don't hold true. Um and I think they're they're the hard one to take. I think within the church, as I've as I've constantly said, there's there's so much grace and there's so much room to bear with you that you will never hear probably it come out of my mouth that I have had any struggles with a brother or a sister in the Lord who has, you know, who has said things that have probably been a bit naive to say or done things that have been a bit naive, you know, this grace extends beyond that, but it doesn't mean that there aren't interactions that you know we just have to bite our tongue at like constantly here and there. So um and not in all interactions, but I'm just saying that it does happen.
SPEAKER_04Sure. And if if it's you know, I'm appreciating I'm putting you on the spot slightly there, but could you could you give any examples of of kind of things maybe or the types of things someone might say without even realizing, or like you said, subject to conscious and it's unconscious.
SPEAKER_01Um I've had I've had funny comments like if I've put on a hood after coming out from coming inside from when it's raining, I've had funny comments both in the world and and in the church that you know, oh wow, you look like you look scary, or you I think you're a criminal or something like that, or a robber. Like things like statements like that aren't helpful. Um and even just more structurally, like the church I'm at is, I've told you, is very um, it's actually very black in nature. But if you went inside and you heard them sing from or if you were hearing them sing from outside, or you were listening to what they were doing, or you or you kind of went in and just saw the kind of structure of the place, you would never think that. Um the hymns that we sing are all Western hymns that were written by um, you know, Puritans, reformers, various people from the past, saints, saints of old, who were all really Caucasian. Um, it's been from the West, um, it's been like it's very European, and it's um but yeah, it doesn't, it's not the type of songs that any of anybody would see would sing if they were back in Montserrat, for example. Um not to say that churches in Montrat don't sing those songs, actually. I think I think, but I think that that's telling of something. Um and it's often telling of what is almost an internalized idea of like cultural superiority, that um, because I appreciate that, you know, and I and I I've built robust theology around why we sing hymns and what the benefit of that is and all of these types of stuff, but but to think that God can't move by his spirit and by the power of his spirit in other saints across the world and help them inspire songs that are actually, unless we're saying that hymns as a as a as a form of music is inspired in and of itself, um, then we're actually saying that listen, that God hasn't really produced music from any other culture. And I think that's not necessarily true. Um, so I think I think I think just small things like that, um that actually also contribute towards the issue. Is it's it's things that I again we could touch on in more in more detail later, but it's it's definitely a it's definitely maybe an intro to some some of the issues that I think we can potentially face in the church. That's helpful.
SPEAKER_03I was struck. Um I was going to preach at a church recently, and before just before I got up to preach, the the pastor sort of said, I just want to say something about what happened last week. And um, you know, when we sing, we don't have to sing at the top of our voices because you know the the Bible doesn't call us to do that. Now, the interesting thing was I'm pretty sure at that church that there were no black people. It wasn't actually an issue of colour, but it was just interesting that there was a cultural issue that uh clearly this pastor felt was so important that he needed to he needed to quash it. And I immediately, even before I got up to preach, thought this is I would feel excluded in this church just trying to sing sing from the top of my voice with without without him even consciously being aware of it. Another one I've experienced quite frequently is just being mistaken for another person. At my ordination, a bishop came up to me and said, Oh, so good to see you. We've been praying for you. So I think you mean someone else, because we've never met, and that is a very frequent thing, and and that's something that I'm aware of in my personal life and in the public space. So Kobe Bryant, a very famous MBA basketball player, died recently. Uh news new on BBC News, they put pictures of Michael Jordan, who uh is someone who is still alive, number one, and uh is about 20 years older. But they put these pictures of him, and and just instantly think our lives feel like they're less valuable than others, you can't even get the the right person because you're like interchangeable, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely because Laurence wasn't Lawrence Fishburne called Samuel L. Jackson on the other side. Samuel L Jackson was another one.
SPEAKER_04Samuel Jackson, wasn't it? Who was called Lawrence Fishburne? He's like, no, that's the other guy.
SPEAKER_02That's yeah, yeah, right.
SPEAKER_04He wrote it out very well, Samuel L. Jackson, but you could tell the guy, the other guy was dying inside. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And the other quick one I would just say is um people assuming that you have got to your position because of the colour of your skin. So that might be different from uh your context, but in mine, Richard, sometimes people would think, well, okay, you've elevated to this position or had this opportunity to speak purely because you're black rather than because to be a good theologian or a pastor or anything like that. And that can be that can be a consistent thing.
SPEAKER_02So you mentioned uh Jason about the events uh in the States May 25th. Uh George Floyd uh had his basically the back of his neck knelt on by uh a police officer. When did you guys first sort of hear about this um this incident and and how was it striking you at the time?
SPEAKER_03I'll be honest with you, when I first heard about it, um it didn't really surprise me in any way, shape, or form because this is this is a pattern that has been in the public eye for a very, very long time. So so the the interesting thing for me was of course it's atrocious and of course it's horrible, but as I saw it, I think, well, here we go again. This is this is just more of the same. And I'm encouraged in some ways that it seems to have caught public attention and and and people have reacted to it in a slightly different way to normal. But this is something that I'm used to seeing on the news all the time. So that was my if I'm honest, that was my initial reaction.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think um I think similar in a sense, um I've swayed, you know. I think we can go to one of two extremes. I think we can get to the point of despair um and allowing it to really lead. To a place of hopelessness, which just isn't the case as Christians. We don't weep as the world weeps, but at the same time, um you can also get to the point of complete numbness and not really seeking to be broken by what breaks the Lord. And I think I've I've swayed back and forth, um, constantly trying to get the balance, but you know, just feeling hurt a lot to the point where I don't want to feel hurt anymore. Um, when I heard this one in particular, I think this was probably like the third or fourth incident that week that had come to mind. Um, we'd obviously heard about Belly Majinga that was close to home. Um, but obviously there was other things in like the Armad Avery case and the guy that was walking the dog, and no, the woman that was walking the dog and coming out of the black man and all of these types of things had been happening. And it was just event after event after event, and it was kind of you kind of start to go on Twitter just to expect the next one. But seeing that one, um, I watched the first few seconds, I turned it off. I couldn't, I couldn't, couldn't really bear with it, went back and watched it later that night and just cried myself to sleep. Um, I think there's something particularly dehumanizing about it. Uh you know, when you see somebody get killed like that or murdered more specifically, um in a way whereby, yeah, like you said, their life means nothing. Um, it does make you think that, you know, like I've said it on a podcast that we just released today as well. But, you know, apart from geographical distance, like that could have been me, and that could have been my daughters watching me, um, you know, begging for my life and saying I can't breathe. Like that, there's no reason why that couldn't have been me or a family member or a brother or a sister, or even like family that's out there in America now. And and and like I said, I think that's quite hard to take. Um, yeah, definitely difficult to a difficult bill to swallow. And so yeah, I found that to be a quite quite a heartbreaking um, it's been quite a heartbreaking week, two weeks. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Both you guys have said kind of on hearing it, in in a sense, you were you're almost kind of like you come to expect it. And if I even myself, as I heard about it, I thought, yeah, you know, you've heard I've heard so many numerous examples of things like this. Is there any reason do you think why this particular case seems to have really gripped people? Do you think it's because the footage is there and just so on display or or is there another reason? Because it it really has and it's gripped the world, really, hasn't it?
SPEAKER_01I I've I've I if you don't mind me going first, Jason, I think I think I think footage has been has been the case for a long time. I think we've got a lot of footage. You'll see montages of of so many people being put to death and shot numerous times and unnecessarily, and in front of kids as well. So I don't necessarily think that it's footage in and of itself. I think one thing though, um has been that this is probably one of the clearest times where you've got footage of a man outside of the killing who is actually doing things in his community and and and show and showing himself to be an upstanding citizen. And and even though he might have like a sketchy past or whatever here and there, like he's he's constantly been doing things to try and encourage people to stop gang crime and do various things like that. And so when you've when the world looks at that and they see him, um, they kind of see like this man just didn't deserve it. And I think as Christians especially, we we kind of have to even take a step further back and just say, listen, actually, irrespective of a person's accolades, wealth, what they've done and what they've not done, how moral we think they are, how moral they are not, etc. etc. You know, the dignity of a human life is attached to first and foremost, primarily to the fact that they're made in the image of God. And because they're made in God's image, they have dignity. It's not down to, you know, it's almost like the question of when you hear people talk about, oh, aborting, do you want to abort a Down syndrome baby? It's like the baby's worth is not based on what they will or won't be able to do in life. Um, the baby's worth is based on the fact that they're made in God's image and therefore they have value. And I think it's a similar argument. And so, so yeah, I I think even though the world's picked up opera at this, I think Christians should should have been outraged at this, should have been the forerunners in terms of wet like being outraged at these kind of things for for a long time.
SPEAKER_04Jason, I don't know if you want to say anything on that or the the question I was gonna ask, kind of both of you have spoken about um your experience of racism and and both of you mentioned kind of the police and stuff. And when we look at the states, we see you know there has been a lot of um a lot of kind of stuff with the police out there as well. But do you think there is a difference between the kind of racism experienced in the US and here in the UK? And and if if there is kind of what what is that and kind of what maybe accounts for some of those things?
SPEAKER_03Well, uh I I I mentioned earlier how a specific and poignant moment for me was the death of Stephen Lawrence. He was a teenager um just on uh the waiting for a bus on his way home in South London and was killed in a racially motivated attack. And in the um inquest and review that followed that, it was one of the first times where it was stated publicly that the police force was institutionally racist. And I I think as a result of that, there that there's just a there is a conscious awareness that sometimes the institutions are working in ways that are deliberately or maybe inadvertently um uh acting against um and disadvantaging people of colour. And I wonder if in our in our society it is often more it is more at the level of institution and opportunity. Now I don't think that's that's universally the case. Richard, you've given many examples I have as well, of where we've personally been treated badly. But I wonder if in this whereas in America it seems that you know um there are so many televised incidents of of just atrocities on the streets, it seems that very often there are things happening at a slightly more invisible level where people are being treated in a way that isn't um that is prejudicial. So I wonder if that's one difference.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Might one difference be the the kind of the level of lethal force that's out there on the streets. You know, there are there are more guns than people in the USA. Yeah. And and you know, the police force in one sense, you you you think, well, okay, they've they've got to meet lethal force with lethal force, but and they they certainly much more used to to that. So perhaps the the very same racial issues become literally weaponized, aren't they?
SPEAKER_01I think I think a lot of research has been coming out about the police unions as well in America, and that's been uh that's been affecting quite a lot because it actually shows how how far you can prosecute um and under what terms you can prosecute a US officer anyway in a lot of states, and it's actually really, really, really difficult. The police unions make it exceptionally hard. Um, and so that I think that's been looked into somewhat, but that's another contributing factor because then you actually have people who can who know how much they can get away with um and can essentially leverage that like it's a loophole. And unfortunately, just because, you know, I I especially just affirmed the depravity of man, uh, the fact that we're not apart from God's grace, we would be completely wicked, um, you know, and and and that sin has really affected every part of us, um, mind, body, soul, etc. Um, and so I don't think that a police officer is necessarily just because they're a police officer in uniform, makes them any less of a sinner in that regard. Um and so you kind of almost if you give them, if you give them an inch, I expect them to take a mile in one sense. And so so yeah, I think I think authority, um, weapons, and even just protection um from prosecution actually affects quite a lot with regards to the differences in in the nature of how we how we experience things. But yeah, I um I agree with Jason as well that there are definitely invisible structures in place that make it very difficult. I think those structures exist in America as well, um in similar in similar degrees. But yeah, I think as well, something we just don't have here is cameras, like like the way they do. We don't we don't have it's a different type of energy altogether. We don't have that kind of I'm gonna I'm gonna stand around and start recording the police the moment I see them energy from the windows from the wall everywhere. Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02And so I think again that makes that makes quite a difference. Well, we're more the CCTV camera kind of culture, aren't we? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01We rely on the CCTVs more than we do on personal mobile phones, and but yeah, who knows whether that will continue or whether that will start to change.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, we've mentioned the um phrase institutional racism, and and um even within the Church of England, senior members of the Church of England, Jason, have have you know said that the you know Church of England is institutionally racist. Did the Archbishop himself say that?
SPEAKER_03Yes, he did, he absolutely did. And uh so this was a uh a debate earlier in the year just saying he was appalled by uh the situation that he faced in the church, which is astounding that he would admit that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. Help us um think that through in terms of I think your your average sort of standard evangelical thinks in terms of sin as my rebellion against God, my transgression against God. Um help us to fit that together with the truth that the total depravity of man weaves its way into structures. Like and and what why is it that some people are very resistant to that idea because what they're afraid of saying is therefore um we are just we're we're kind of my personal responsibility is taken out of my hands, I'm in this institutional structure, I can't repent and believe individually for an institutional sin. And so they they kind of fear the category of institutional racism. Um help us help us to think about personal sin, personal responsibility, but also institutional sins and the way that structures can go wrong as well.
SPEAKER_03Well, the structure, uh structures are made up of people, and people are sinners, as we've uh as we've been saying, and those sinners uh can have ways of thinking that mean that as a collective body they tend to act in certain ways. And sometimes it's worth saying that sometimes this isn't always conscious, it can be unconscious as well. Uh, but but if a whole if a whole group of people uh choose to believe that some people are less valuable or or less worthy of opportunities than others, then the whole way that the system operates will be one that disadvantages certain groups of people. So to say that the institution has a problem is not to say that the physical bricks and mortar, for example, uh somehow has a problem, but it's to say that a group of people may operate in groupthink and and therefore the sins of uh a group of people end up manifesting in ways that mean that certain people find themselves consistently disadvantaged. So I think that's a helpful start for 10 in terms of thinking about that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um tribalism is really is really at the heart of it, I guess, in many respects. And it's um looking for unity on the basis of things, people that look like you, um, sound like you, have done like studied where you studied, done what you've done, and and that that extends into every area and every walk, you know. Um and and I think you just you just see that so clearly when you look at like leadership structures in most places, um, especially before all of the uh, even though it's not changed that much yet, but especially before like diversity and inclusion became trendy, um it was very, very, very, no offense to you guys, but very uh white and Caucasian male at the top of most most companies, most most organizations, most churches. Um yeah, I think I think that's just what you tend to what you tend to see. They tend to be in the world, they tend to be those who run the big corporations, etc. etc. Um, are receiving the investment from uh investment and capital, etc. I think I think there's a there's a really interesting statistic that says, I think it was in 2018 or so, but more people received investment who were white and male and had the name Dave than all females um put together. And that kind of just puts like puts it into perspective the the the way in which it looks. And I guess again, just as Christians, um we don't we don't look for beauty and homogeny, but we look just for beauty and diversity. You know, God's God's glory is such that He is Um He needs His image to be scattered in all of us um just so that we can capture an inkling of His of His glory. Um God's yeah, and so it's being reflecting in all of us in glimpses, just so that you can capture even an inkling of His glory. And the moment we start to think that one person or one look or one one type of being or whatever or one category is sufficient to capture that glory, or or is that at the pinnacle of that glory we've we've missed it um because we we really aren't we point to one who's who's who's greater than ourselves, and so so yeah, I think it's as Jason said, sinners at the bottom, you expect them to build sinful structures, but not necessarily bricks and mortar, but yeah, just the the ways of thinking that underlie them.
SPEAKER_03But you can get used to just hearing a certain type of voice. Uh uh, someone in leadership has a certain type of voice, and so um I had a uh a listening exercise with um some clergy recently, people of colour, and yeah, examples of people saying uh the the the pastor in charge wouldn't let me preach because he didn't think people would be able to understand my accent, uh, or you know, that kind of thing whereby there are there are some just assumptions about the way things should be done that have become so normalized that anything that deviates from that is probably a problem, and so we should think carefully about allowing that to uh be expressed. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Would you say at all that it's it's kind of it's a particular like racism is a particular expression of these flesh dynamics that you know um C.S. Lewis kind of wrote about the inner ring. We always want to get into the inner ring, and the only way I can get in is if I can keep you out, and so I I'm personally so in I'm so self-exulting all the time. I'm always wanting to do that. And skin, you know, skin colour and race and ethnicity is one way of doing it, but that there's a more foundational thing going on, the flesh, that racism is an expression of.
SPEAKER_01Is that at the heart of all sin is idolatry? I'm completely convinced. Um and it's always a worship of something over God. And I I I have no no kind of doubt that that doesn't extend to you know to to things such as racism, etc. Um and even murder and and and all sorts, you know. I think I think in every it's situation it's trying to exalt in some sense self over God and trying to enthrone self over over God, and that's uh that's the problem, right? And so, and so yeah, I I have no doubt that the inner ring in many respects does exist, but flows from a place of trying to of self-glorification in certain respects.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think it's I think it's interesting in Colossians 3, where um where Paul is speaking about the way that Christians relate to one another, that he he has this whole list of of ways in which we might relate badly, like um uh desires, covetousness, slander, wrath, malice, and it and it feels like all of those are kind of issues of of of pride, really. You know, I will put myself uh at the top and think that your view is different, and that seems to be borne out by what comes next. He seems to be saying, actually, we need to recognise that in Christ there is a oneness that means that for me to elevate myself above other people is is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the gospel's about. So I wonder if that speaks into that inner ring as well. That it's really sort of trying to get at what's at the heart of our our faith that actually the gospel unifies us in such a way that pride should be out of the question.
SPEAKER_04Is that something you that makes sense? Yeah, I think that's I think that sounds made complete sense. Is that something you would those kind of things you've touched on in what you both just said there, are those the kind of things you would be talking about if you were preaching on issues like this? I mean, do you preach on issues like this at all? And it is it kind of that stuff you're saying, or are there other things that you would say you should we really want to say this?
SPEAKER_01I I think I think you have to be careful not to not to turn the pulpit into a a podium for for for purely like social political gain or or something of that kind of ilk. I don't I don't think that's the case. I think the I think the primary function of the pulpit forever will be the the gospel um and should be the gospel. You know, I think that's where that's the that's the bedrock on which we stand and the foundation out of which everything else flows. But that said, I think if you're faithfully preaching the whole council of God, um I think you deal with these types of issues. Um I think I think one of the big problems is that if I if I if I stand up and I start preaching and I deal with you know thieves and robbers and fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God, um, everyone will look around and you know nobody knows who the thief is or the robber or the fornicator. And so there's a sense in which you can still feel very comfortable unless you're actually in in involving those things at that very moment, you know, um, and then nobody knows that you are. But if you mention something like racism um from the pulpit, uh, even in just those terms, instantly like you begin to start to categorize people just based on how they look, and people feel themselves exposed because again of how they look, even if they're not necessarily racist. And so, and so that kind of creates uh a level of discomfort that I think means that people often overlook it as something that shouldn't really be preached. But again, as we've mentioned uh time and time again, especially when this is the kind of sin that's leading to the death of people um in the states in the middle of the streets, and people are actually out there defending it and saying, but maybe he had reason to uh dot dot dot murder him. Um I think what you have to just appreciate is that in the same way that preachers will call out sins like abortion um for killing unborn babies, we should be more than willing to call out sins like racism that's resulting in the murdering of a particular people group. Um I don't think that should be a compromisable point. I also don't think it should govern the direction of the whole, the entirety of the pulpit.
SPEAKER_03I think I I definitely agree. I mean, we want to preach the whole council of God. I think one of the dangers is that that, and I think you've touched on this, Richard, that people don't quite see how it applies to them uh if they're hearing a sermon saying we're all equal. And number one, people assume that that's what they they already think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, facts.
SPEAKER_03And uh unless unless there is some sometimes I think taking up a cultural moment and using that to preach into that is an opportunity for people to particularly see how the whole council of God applies to them specifically. And it strikes me, you know, you read the letters, that's precisely what what Paul Paul is doing. He's this is the issue in this church at this time, and let me speak into it with eternal truth. And so sometimes I think we do need to do that. So I'm stopping our usual series this Sunday to speak specifically into this issue, and I I think uh if I don't do that, I I miss an opportunity to to point people in a direction that could be helpful for all of us as a church, and I think you are right that it does raise it it does make this an exposing thing for all of us, but actually we need to be having the conversation, and and I think opening up the conversation is a good thing, even though it might be painful. So I think it's I I don't think that sort of disagrees, I think it's just just another angle on it.
SPEAKER_01No, no, not at all, not at all, not at all. I pre- I've been preaching some devotionals going through the book of Psalms, and you know, the moment this happened, you know, my next my next uh devotional midway through Psalm chapter three, um, that was dealing with suffering, uh David suffering when he was fleeing from Absalom. Like I can point people and remind people that, you know, even though we might suffer on this side of eternity, especially speaking to a predominantly black congregation, even though we might suffer on this side of eternity, you know, David recognizes that his salvation belongs to the Lord. And and you know, that that hope is not one that is necessarily rooted in and of itself in getting through the storm of this life, but appreciating, as I think Jonathan Edwards said, um, this world is the closest thing to heaven, an unbeliever will ever taste, and the closest thing to hell a believer will ever have to endure. So, so yeah, I completely agree that contextualizing the gospel message is necessary because Christ didn't come down to uh to preach to a blank canvas of people that never had any form of culture or any type of issue, but Christ, um, even though he unites us in a way that transcends culture, came down into culture, spoke in a particular language, dealt with a particular people group and their particular misconceptions, and brought them to him, um, having been a shepherd who met them where they were. So, so yeah.
SPEAKER_02Very good. Well, I'm very conscious of of time and um uh and everything. But Jason, I I I'd be thrilled to know what uh what it is you're gonna say this Sunday, because uh every every preacher will be taking notes right now. Um Uh go on, give us give us your cheap notes. Go on.
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean, we we were going through a series on heaven last Sunday, preached on Revelation 4 and 5. Uh, but what we didn't, in fact, get to was much at the end of Revelation 5, where the the lamb has been slain in order to redeem for himself uh a kingdom of priests from every tribe and tongue and nation. And so that's where we're gonna land. And I think that's helpful because it shows us where the direction of history is going. And so uh those those distinctions and categories that we might we might superficially think they we're all one in Christ, we don't need to worry about them. Well, not according to Revelation 5. Those categories are gonna be really important and remain and be celebrated at the end. Uh, and and it also therefore gives us some fuel for thinking how do we how do we celebrate them now? How do we live in such a way that honours those while being one in Christ? So that's that's where we'll be going, Revelation 5.
SPEAKER_02Awesome. Well, I mean, what a what an incredible multi-ethnic vision. Every tribe, nation, people, and tongue gathered around the throne. You know, yeah, to be yeah, to be racist is to be anti-Christ, you know, in in that sense. Um we are we have to desire sitting down and not and not just sort of tolerating one another at a distance, but actually feasting together at the same table, united around the same same savior. Um and fascinating, isn't it, in Revelation, that that tribes, nations, peoples, and tongues will like continue into glory. Into glory. Yeah. So yeah, oh man, I've got so much I'd love to I'd love to ask you guys, but we'll we'll maybe have to do it another another time. Um yeah, all these issues about uh yeah, how how do we get that unity right without uniformity? How do we how do we say we're one in Christ? But there are distinctions that God loves and wants to preserve into eternity. Actually, do you guys want to have one last word on that? Let's let's let's finish on that. Like, like how how do we how do we thread that needle of absolute unity? There's neither Scythian nor barbarian. We're all we're all you know, we're all one in Christ. And there are tribes, nations, peoples, and tongues, and it's part of God's glory that we reflect those different things. Give us give us a final word on that, guys.
SPEAKER_03It's striking that in 1 Corinthians 12, the uh where Paul is talking about the body, the one body, the the two distinctions he makes and says we need to ensure that we celebrate uh these two distinctions are the distinction in some ways of um of cultural difference um in terms of Greek and Jew, but also of social difference in terms of slave and free. And and and so I wonder if that means that in our church context we want to be ensuring that we particularly move towards minority groups who might be in danger of feeling excluded. And so so just asking ourselves the question are there ways in which those groups on the outside of things might see things done in church life that show that they are part of it? And that might be seeing the the faces who are up the front, it might be to do the music that's sung, it might be to do the whole number of things that just help those people on the margins sense and experience that they are part of that one body. Not just they're they're in the pew and tolerated, but they're actually part of it.
SPEAKER_01I think I would also um I would also add that I I think just understanding diversity and unity is a particularly trinitarian thing. Um God Himself, the Lord your God, behold you, behold he is the Lord your God is one, the Shema is a fundamental phrase when it comes to understanding God. And yet the same God says, let us make man in our own image. He says in uh chapter 11 of Genesis, you know, let us scatter them before man thinks he can become like us. You continue to see the Theophanies and God revealing himself in Christ and and the work of the Spirit and all of these types of things, and and how they're all equal with God and eternally subsisting, but at the same time being though different people or persons or personas, they are still one God. And you kind of just see that how the beauty of the Trinity, they're united. The Son is about the Father's business, this the Father sends the Son, the Son does the will of the Father, and yet the Spirit flows from um the Father, proceeds from the Father and the Son, and and how they all work together to bring about salvation or to inspire the Word of God or to um or to bring the world into existence and to bring us into glory. And and that kind of beautiful picture of Trinitarian love and unity and yet diversity um forms the very basis of which we kind of interact with one another. And so even though we can be diverse and God saves us from different tribes, tongues, and nations, um, and even though I'm I'm I'm an African man and and you know, Nigerian, East London born, well actually Manchester born, um Manchester initially raised, and then East London born um raised subsequently and all that kind of stuff, you know, and and I've got a black um and Nigerian passport and a British passport, but like my citizenship is still in heaven, according to Philippians. And and that's the kind of the kind of world in which we in which we operate, that I'm more united to to you guys um than I am to, in one sense, my blood relatives, because I've we've been bound by the blood of Christ, um, and they're bonds that can never be broken. And so that's uh that's kind of my kind of my kind of framework for thinking through things. And so we might see different cultural expressions of the based on where we were saved and how we were saved and who God is saving, etc. But ultimately we all are united by God Himself and He forms the foundation of our unity.
SPEAKER_02I love that. I love that. And that and that kind of brings to to full circle that idolatry thing. If the if if we're worshipping a false God, then we'll get a false vision of unity and diversity. If we worship the true God, behold our true gods, then there's diversity and unity. And yeah, who would have thought God is the answer? Um but uh we are the problems, and and yeah, we'll continue to think here. Um, yeah, the ways in which yeah, we are the problem. Um, but God is that great solution. I've uh learned so much from you guys. Thank you, thank you so much uh for joining us. Uh Richard, can you uh let people know how they can catch up with you and uh some of your stuff online?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so obviously I'm I'm Richard Ariami on all socials, but more specifically, if you my child's gonna be screaming in the background in a second, but um Black Beria, so B-L-A-C-K-B-E-R-E-A on all social media channels. And yeah, we're we're we're Black Barrera. We produce the video content on YouTube, podcasts on Spotify and SoundCloud and Apple Music, I believe. And uh we've got articles up on our website, and we have live events occasionally as well. So hopefully we can get connected post lockdown, especially.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And awesome. Jason, is is there any um are there any resources you'd point people to on on this particular issue that you think might be helpful for people?
SPEAKER_03Um such a big issue. I just wrote an article um not to be self-aggrandizing, but I did just write an article on um uh ethnicity and COVID-19 um on the co mission website. It's on our uh Facebook page, bridgebadacy.co.uk, and so on. So that'd be a way into thinking about a number of different things.
SPEAKER_02Brilliant, we'll put that in the show notes, definitely. Um but Jason, Richard, thank you so much for joining us. No, thanks for having us, Glenn, Paul.
SPEAKER_04No, it's been brilliant. Thanks, guys.
SPEAKER_02No, thanks a lot. Cool. Um thank you so much. I'm sorry, I'm sorry we kept going. And I was only halfway through all the questions I wanted to ask you guys. No, no worries, no worries, no worries, no worries, no worries. Um awesome. I'll definitely be uh subscribing to you guys. Black Baria on the on the podcast. You're you're you've got one coming out very soon.
SPEAKER_01Uh I think we've just dropped one today. Okay. Um I'm not sure Jason might know Gabby from Commission. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so Gabby's Gabby's in the in the podcast as as uh she's a seventh of the team. Um so yeah, brilliant.
SPEAKER_02Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. Well, I'll let you guys get back to to families. I know it's uh it's yeah, hard to do all this in lockdown, but um so so grateful for your help. Thank you so much. Thanks guys, thanks for having us. Thanks, guys. Thank you, Richard. Cheers. Well, I loved that conversation with Richard Awayemi and Jason Roach, and it was great to have Paul Feezy alongside as well. And if you want to keep on uh having those conversations and listening in to some great wisdom on race and the UK church, please do check out Black Barrera, a great podcast for you to add to your subscriptions. Uh and if you haven't subscribed already to the Speak Life Podcast, please uh be doing that. And if you have been listening for a while, please would you give us a rating and a review? A five-star review really helps us get seen by more people. And uh, if you'd like to share this around, sharing is caring. We are Speak Life UK on all the socials, that is Twitter and Instagram and Facebook, and on YouTube. You can actually watch this conversation and see all our pretty faces uh if you just go to our YouTube channel, Speak Life Media, on YouTube. Next week we're gonna have a conversation with Andrew Snatch and Marty Gray. We spoke to them about 10 weeks ago when we first went down into lockdown about how churches are adjusting to doing online church. We're gonna talk to them about what they've learnt over the last 10 weeks and about what we can perhaps carry on into uh uh a phased-out lockdown situation. As we begin to meet again, what are some of the ways that online church has actually blessed us and what are some of the things that we can carry on into our ongoing church life? Well, thank you so much for joining us, and uh, we pray that this is a blessing to you. And uh, if you have um topics that you would like us to address on the show, get in touch with us. Info at speaklife.org.uk. But until next time, God bless. Bye bye.