Welcome to the Speak Live Podcast. My name is Glenn Scrivener. Thanks for joining us for this special podcast edition. These are recordings of webinars that we held a few weeks ago, just as lockdown was beginning in the UK. We started to ask the deep questions, the questions that are on everyone's minds. Things like, how do I handle my anxiety? That was the previous episode. In this episode, we're thinking about how do I learn to pray, perhaps even for the first time. And then in the next episode, we'll be thinking about how do I face my fragility when I thought that I was going to live forever. We have some terrific guests for you, Dr. Joe Jackson, a counselor in London, and Reverend Dr. Paul Blackham, also in London, an author and church leader. Their wisdom is really going to shape our conversation and drive it forwards, and we hope give you the deep wisdom of the scriptures and the way of Jesus. If this has blessed you or uh you've been helped by this podcast, we'd love it if you'd share it with friends and family. So many thousands have watched this uh online, and we know of many people who've been helped by it. So uh do be sharing the wealth, and without further ado, here is How Do I Pray? So, welcome everybody. My name is Glenn Scrivener. I am a minister in the Church of England, and I help out with an organization called Speak Life, and we exist to have deep conversations about the deep issues in life and put Jesus at the center of them. Uh, I'm joined uh with these webinars by two great friends. I've got uh Reverend Dr. Paul Blackham over in North London. Uh, would you like to say hello to us, Paul? And uh we're talking about this issue of prayer. Uh, can you introduce yourself and introduce um what it is that you find difficult about this uh elusive subject of prayer?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, okay, so I'm uh Paul Blackham from St. Crispin's in London here. And prayer, yeah, I think the thing ever since I was quite little is the concept that um the heavens, there's like the heavens of the, you know, the atmosphere and then the galaxies, and then there's a third heaven beyond that, that is this impossibly different level of reality. And how on earth am I supposed to communicate with the Heavenly Father who sits enthroned in a level of reality that is, because even the second heavens, like the galaxies where Star Wars happens, um that is hard enough to get my head around. And then the Bible's like, hey, that that's nothing compared to the third heaven level. There's this totally different level of reality. How it's just that is the thing that constantly bewilders me. I mean, I know an answer to it, but you just asked me what is it that this is what happens.
SPEAKER_02This is what happens when you ask Paul Blackham a question. He goes cosmic on you. You know, we're we're not three minutes into the into the live cast, and already we've gone cosmic and we've mentioned Star Wars. Um, so so yeah, yeah, it it is a big topic. Um, how does this thing even work? How do we wrap our heads around that? Um Dr. Joe Jackson, you're uh living in central London as well. Uh, can you introduce yourself to us? And on this topic of prayer, what is it that you find difficult?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh good evening. Um, I am Joe. I'm a psychologist by background. Um I'm a mum of four, and um I love to pray, but I think the thing that I find hardest about prayer is actually just being honest. So I um will come to the Lord God and think that without even recognizing that I need to kind of present myself in a certain way or tell him only certain things rather than actually being totally vulnerable, transparent, um, willing to really engage myself with him, let alone you know the other way around as well.
SPEAKER_02So bringing the real you to the real God. Indeed. Yeah, how do we do that authentically? Maybe we'll uh touch on those subjects. Um I think what I find difficult about prayer is I tend to assume that the universe grinds along according to iron laws of physics, and we just dance to their tune. And if you and and I know I'm a Christian, I'm I know I'm not meant to think this, but I kind of do. I kind of I've got this picture of reality as though if you boiled everything down, we're basically like billiard balls kind of clacking into each other. And all of reality, whether it's love or bliss or music or whatever it el whatever else it is, I've kind of been infected by this view that everything is mechanical. Uh of course, when you come to the Bible, everything is miraculous, but when you when you have this this very reductionistic view, you think everything is mechanical. And where does prayer fit into that? Because if it's a closed system and we're just cogs grinding along, um, why am why am I asking God for anything? Um, it just happens, doesn't it? So I think I think I'm kind of practically practically an atheist, you know, in in my kind of vision of the world. And that that that has implications for my prayer life um as well. Um but one of the things we're gonna think about um uh this evening is uh the way prayer is back on people's agendas. Um because I I think we have in the West in the last 400 years sort of uh thought of the world as though it's all just billiard balls clacking together. But when the rug gets pulled out from under you, people start praying. And um and perhaps we can see on the screen, um they just uh published some research on uh internet searches. Um and internet searches for the topic of prayer uh have surged to their highest level during the past five years. Um and they've only really been been searching and they've only really been collecting these statistics for these last five years. So basically um more people than ever are looking for prayer, looking for how to pray in the month of March than they ever have in the past. And that that is more than searches for prayer at other times, including Ramadan and Christmas and Easter. So religious festivals don't get people praying, but coronavirus does, I guess. Um Joe, with your kind of clinical psychologist sort of hat on, um, what do you think it is that that might be driving people to prayer at this point?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think um I think we feel totally out of control. Um we we don't know what's going on, we don't know what the future will hold, and um, you know, the people who we look to for answers and to give us a sense of security, whether that be government, politicians, maybe, maybe not, um, scientists, healthcare professionals, ourselves, um, you know, all these different things that we tend to look to for answers, for security, for safety. They're kind of just not not able to deliver. They feel really shaky at the moment. And I think people are searching for something to hold on to and for help. Um, and I think when when other things fail, um, for a lot of people, God is is perhaps the next best thing.
SPEAKER_02And when people say prayer these days, the people tend to have in their minds various concepts of what prayer looks like. And for some people, it might just mean communing with yourself, um, it might mean meditation, it might mean mindfulness, it might mean um, sort of out there in in the culture, what do people mean when they say prayer, do you think?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's really interesting. I I was reading an article the other day about um written by an atheist entitled Um How to Pray if you're an atheist. And it had like a four-step process. Um, but I think there's there's lots of different ideas as to what prayer means um and what people mean by prayer. I think there's there's a kind of spirituality aspect, um, that's something that became very kind of trendy a little while ago. Um, you know, no to formal religion, but yes to spirituality, which is a sort of sense of oneness, of connection with others, a kind of prayer to the world itself, something out there, but definitely not someone who is personal or who engage with. Um, I think mindfulness brings in another aspect. Again, that's not necessarily wanting to connect with someone else, but is more about self-understanding, self-reflection, becoming aware of your own internal thoughts and then deciding how to respond to them. So I think some people use mindfulness or or meditation more generally as a as a form of prayer. But I think with all these things, what is very different to a Christian understanding of prayer is that um there's not a sense that you are talking to a personal God. And there is also not a sense that this is part of a conversation, that there is like there's there's a two-way interaction that has to go on, and prayer is part of a response to someone who has spoken.
SPEAKER_02So it's a sense of you you're kind of untangling your mind by vocalizing your thoughts, but there's no one on the other end of it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and with no one on the other end of it, this is going to be of limited value, um, perhaps. Um, Paul, um let's let's let's bring up a slide because um we were talking about this earlier today, and um uh we started to think in two broad categories. And um, I don't know if uh if you guys are bad news, good news people, um uh which do you prefer the you know to hear the first? Do you prefer to hear bad news or good news? Most people say let's let's hear the bad news first, and then the good news can come, can come second. And tonight is no exception because we've been thinking in these terms, um, in terms of how to pray. First point, prayer is impossible. But before you start to give up and think, oh, okay, well, let's let's go and watch Netflix, um, we will get get back to to saying prayer is simple. Um, these two points might seem to be contradictory, but we'll show you how they kind of work together. First of all, though, Paul, can you take us through why is prayer impossible?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because that thing that I spoke about, the j it's like I if I was to my daughter lives on the top floor of this house, and I've got a pretty loud voice, but I doubt I could easily make myself heard to her in the attic level. Um, and certainly not someone living across the road. And the notion that I could somehow communicate to this transcendent being who lives in the third heaven level of reality, of course that is ridiculous. And I, you know, when people say, Oh, pray, you're just talking to the ceiling, I'm like, yeah, I I get I get that's true because the notion of this living God in the Bible, it actually the living God actually quite often says, When you pray, I'm not listening. He actually says that quite often because the the notion that people sometimes have is hey, God is lucky to hear from me. I barely believe in him, and if I decide to send a few words up, he better be listening. Whereas the living God saying, Hey, look, I'm not listening. And I think that's a shock to the modern mind that because we've lived for 200 years with this idea of, hey, you know, God should be pleased. Anyone believes in him, you know. And whereas the real living God of the Bible actually says, Hey, listen, you guys are messed up. You know, the whole sense of being in quarantine, like from the perspective of that highest level of reality, the third heavens, paradise, the whole universe. Human beings are like deeply diseased in a moral and spiritual sense. And so we kind of go, I'm gonna wander into heaven and tell God a few things. And they they're kind of in that accent, is that how we think it? Yeah, I think so. And then it's like the security guards in the Bible, there's actual security guards, angels who are tasked with weapons to keep human beings out because we pollute it and we are dangerous, dangerous to this heavenly reality, the universe, in a way. And so the law goes, I can't talk to you because you are deeply messed up and dangerous, and you don't even talk to me anyway.
SPEAKER_02We're not on speaking terms.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we're not on speaking terms. I like that. He says, Listen, you're just busy talking to all these gods and idols, and even when you kind of pray, you're not really talking to me. You don't use my name, you don't talk to me the way I've provided or anything like that. I'm not listening. So there's literal verses. I mean, I wonder if we have the slide. Do we can we have that slide? Because there's a couple of quite, I mean, this is not an exhaustive list, but it says things like, look at that Isaiah 1:15. When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you, even when you offer many prayers. I'm not listening. So that is the impossibility of prayer, that there's a geographical problem, obviously, but that's at the trivial level. There's this much more profound sense where we're just not worth listening to from the point of view of the living God. And it's not, there is a way around that, and we're gonna get to that, but we have to face the fact straight away that we are not worth listening to as far as the highest levels of reality are concerned, and we might like want to rage against God or ask for help or tell him some complaints to management or whatever we want to do, but actually we're not worth listening to.
SPEAKER_02Goodness me. This is this is the bad news first. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Bad news. It is bad news, but we have to be honest and be, and I think actually we suspect that. We suspect half the time when we say, I don't think my prayers go higher than the ceiling. And I do say to people sometimes, yeah, that is true. And can I just make this last point? I know Glenn's like, no, shut up. But listen, though, I listen, um, in a way, that is a good thing that were not heard because there's this terrifying incident in the Bible, and it's in Numbers chapter 16, and there's a guy called Korah, and he's become super famous for being for showing this terrible, terrifying point up where he says, I don't need any help getting in touch with the living God. I think I've got enough God inside me to connect to God easily. And so the Lord God says, Oh, really? You think that, do you? And it's equivalent to plugging your putting your finger into a electrical plug. And the Lord God says, Okay, you think you could plug yourself into this level of power and reality uh safely. So the Lord God says, Okay, I'll tell you what, you try that, and anyone who thinks like you, you offer prayers to me, and I'm just gonna let it play out. And if you read the instant, it is literally terrifying because they die, this fire comes out from the living God and they are killed. Because you we cannot plug into that level of reality, like as if you were gonna plug, push your finger into an electrical output. Uh, you would just boom, you know, you're gonna be in serious trouble. So, what I say to people is if you do not know the name of the living God and know how to communicate with him, the best outcome is that you're ignored. The worst outcome is that you might be noticed, and then you're in serious trouble.
SPEAKER_02We've got a great question on on Facebook from uh Rihan. She uh she asked a great question on Monday night. It was fire, and she's brought the fire again on Wednesday night. Um, she says, I always struggle with the idea of how a loving God created humans and put them on earth to worship him and then not consider us worthy. Is that really merciful? So here's the story: God loves us, he puts us on the earth. We're me we're designed for this connection with gods, and then he doesn't want to listen, he turns his face away. Like, like what's the what's the story? What what what are we missing from this picture? Me? Do you want me to turn to that one?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, go on, Paul. Okay. Yes, uh well, the thing is, is yeah, he created us for this amazing divine romance. We're made with tremendous desires and capacities, and we we just see can't and and the so what's how we were designed, but the story of the Bible is right from our first parents and onwards, it's us that renege on it. It's not that the living God's like, hey, I've had enough of this relationship, I'm out. He repeatedly says, I'm still committed to the relationship. Why aren't you? And he accuses us constantly of committing adultery. It's one of the most repeated images in the Bible. The idea that we we sell ourselves to all these other lovers. That's the language he uses. And by lovers, he means all these things in life that we give our hearts and minds and affection and time and attention to that are not worthy of us, but we do it anyway. And there's this living God who designed us with tremendous capacities to engage with it, and we basically break his heart and betray him all the time. That's why he says, the way you are, the things you do, the way you treat me, that's why I say I'm not listening, because of the way you've committed adultery against the ultimate one who is so lovely.
SPEAKER_02So it would be a bit like the uh an adulterous wife, she's run off with the tennis coach. Um, she's shacked up with the tennis coach and doesn't show any interest in restoring the relationship with her husband who loves her, who's who's who would be open to an actual marriage. But while ever she's shacked up with the tennis coach, um he will not enter her calls. Is that is that kind of a picture?
SPEAKER_01That's a that's the picture. That is the picture. And there's there's a whole book of Hosea. If anybody fancies staying up tonight, dig out the book of Hosea. But I tell you, it's a little bit 18 certificate, it's pretty intense, the emotional energy of it, but it pretty much captures what Glenn just said, that that is how the living God looks at his relationship with human beings. And yet he does carry on, and and and as hopefully we'll we'll see, he goes to enormous lengths to make the marriage work and fix it.
SPEAKER_02How would you start to answer that question as well, Joe? Um, how do how do we put together a loving God who wants to have communion with us? Um, but but also he he doesn't want to deal with us in when we're out of sorts with him, when we're not on speaking terms with him. How do you how do you put those things together?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think that the relationship analogy of a marriage relationship is a really good one. Um, you know, there have been times when I have counseled couples when one or other of them has committed adultery. Um, and you know, while the adultery is still going on or they're still carrying on with that kind of betrayal, it is it's impossible for the relationship to be restored, no matter how much how much the other person wants it. But I think also with the the Lord God reveals himself as a God who is you know who isn't prepared to have a relationship with people who who won't relate to him as the Lord God, um, but he's also a God who is incredibly merciful and loving and and just and true to his word and faithful, and you know, it's one has to uh recognize that he is not just um kind of one-dimensional, and I think we have a really hard time with that. So we either think he is simply wrathful and cannot be approached, and there's no point going near him, or we think, oh yeah, God's loving, he'll kind of accept me. It doesn't matter how I relate to him, or whether or not I listen to him or um relate to him on his terms, I can just approach him at any time. So um so so it's hard to hear, and um, you know, Paul, as you're talking, I feel fear in my heart actually, even though even though I know him, because I it it kind of gives me a glimpse of this God who is so much bigger than I often regard him as. Um And whilst yeah, that's not the end of the story, in one sense it is right to be fearful before an almighty God. And then to ask, okay, Lord, what you know, what what can I do? I I am unclean. Please, please help me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So we've we've had we've had the bad news. Prayer is impossible, absolutely impossible. Um, let's turn the corner and now start to think, how how is prayer simple? Um, because that's another theme in the Bible. Uh, we're gonna get to a verse where it just says, anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, just call on the name of the Lord. Um, he is inviting prayer. Um, and the simplest kind of prayer, just call on the name of the Lord. Lord. Um, the simplest kind of thing possible. So, how do we put those two things together? And I and I love um if we've got on the on the screen um the verse uh Luke chapter 11, uh the fourth slide. Um, and with prayer is simple, you've just got this great picture in Luke chapter 11. So here is one of the four biographies of Jesus, the third biography written by Luke, and uh he relates this time when people were watching Jesus pray. And so here comes Jesus, he's the Son of the Father, full of the Holy Spirit. He was there before the world began, but he has become our brother, he's entered into our human situation. And in Luke chapter 11, it says one day Jesus was praying in a certain place, which means he was carrying on the conversation with his father that he has always had. A conversation where he's just saying, My father, my father, my father, my father, in the joy of the spirit, he's been knowing himself as a beloved son and enjoying that communion. And now he's carrying on that conversation as one of us, as our brother in our human family. And so he's praying in that certain place. And uh, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, Oh, Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples. And then Jesus said to him said to them, When you pray, you say, Father, hallowed be your name. So it's just this beautiful, it's this beautiful idea that the followers of Jesus are watching actual prayer. And we've we've noticed how impossible it is. Like, how on earth do you commune with the living God? And yet Jesus, the Son of the Father, is doing it and it looks awesome. It looks beautiful. It looks like, oh, can we can we come in on that? And then Jesus basically says, Yeah, come on in, the waters are fine. In the name of Jesus, when we put our hand into his hand, then all of a sudden, he asks us to call God what he calls God, and what he's been calling God from before the beginning of the world, Father. And that is transformative. And and I think what what's transformative is in the name of Jesus, we come to the Father. And suddenly prayer is a totally different beast. Um Joe, do you want to put words to either one of those aspects? Like how does it change to come in the name of Jesus and to come to a father?
SPEAKER_00It is quite extraordinary, and I think um for me anyway, it just reminds me of how extraordinary Jesus is and how necessary he is. You know, if we are talking about prayer being approaching the holy God, the God of the universe, the God who gives us our every breath, who sustains every atom in this universe. Without his will, it would all just totally disintegrate. That, you know, we're we're coming to that God to which it's right to be fearful. And then we have Jesus saying, actually, you know, through me, friends, you can know God as your father. It is, it's it is quite mind-blowing, and and just reminds me again of how extraordinarily beautiful um the good news of the gospel is that um through Jesus we can have this relationship that is impossible without him. It is because Jesus, who is God made flesh, comes down and walks with us and lives life and dies um in our place, you know, bridging the gap between us and God by by forgiving our sins. We can then suddenly have prayer open to us. I mean, I think it takes a while to actually absorb that and appreciate that. Um, but as you say, there's something about Jesus where he does just say, Listen, follow me, follow me, and I and and I will show you the way. And um, and that's an invitation.
SPEAKER_02Just just say father. Yeah, amazing. In the name of Jesus, we can just say father. Where before we were totally left out in the cold, now hand in hand with Jesus, we just say father. And I guess that that brings up the issue of Jesus as our mediator. Um, Paul, do you do you want to talk to us a little bit about Jesus, our mediator, and what that means in the scriptures?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's this is like that I love this stuff because as a kid, those first five books of the Bible, uh, I just as a kid just read those all the time and enjoyed them so much, I'd always go back and start again with them. And in them, they're called the law, the law of Moses. And in them, what the Lord God's doing is he's saying, Listen, I'm gonna become one of you one of these days. But before I do that, I want you to get exactly who I am and how I'm gonna do this and what it means, what everything I do will mean, especially my dying bit. And so he had them built this little room, like a tent in the middle of the desert. And it basically had two rooms divided by a curtain. And the inner room, the holiest of holies, that represents this highest.
SPEAKER_02Do you have a picture of that on the on the screen?
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, couldn't that be good if we've got that? Yeah. Yeah, that'd be good. There we are. There it is.
SPEAKER_023D as well.
SPEAKER_01Look at that. And there we've got that inner room, and you get the Ark of the Covenant made famous by Indiana Jones. There it is. Um the and that's the inner room that represents like a heavenly reality, and then there's this outer room that is earth and so on. And it's just this simple picture between heaven and earth, and the highest heaven where the father's throne is, the ark of the covenant idea, that's the heavenly thing. And then there's this curtain that divides them. And basically, everyone knew nobody gets in there. And there's a couple of guys who kind of do behave wrongly as they're supposed to be ministry, and fire kills them. Fire comes out and kills them. So there's this very clear message: you can't get into this heavenly room. There's a curtain that shuts you out. But here's the amazing thing: there's one guy, and it's the high priest. There was this figure. I always think of it like a superhero, like a, you know, when a kid puts on a superhero outfit, and while they're wearing the outfit, they think they can fly or spin webs or anything like that. Well, the Lord God kind of said, Listen, make a superhero outfit, and that superhero outfit is gonna be me. I'll come and I'm the superhero, but I want one of you to dress up as me and play the role of me. And once a year, the person wearing the Jesus outfit will get to go through the curtain into the heavenly room. So all these people, ancient church people basically, camped out there thousands of years ago, they could see there is one person, only one person who ever gets to go into that holy heavenly room. And they were they knew that meant that this Messiah, the divine Messiah who's gonna be born as one of us, Jesus, he is our only hope. He's the one who connects heaven and earth, he's the one who can get through the curtain, who can open a way for us into the heavenly room. And one of the lovely things about that high priest, um, we might have a picture of this. Uh do we said, do we have that picture of the guy with the superhero outfit on? Um if we oh, there we are. There he is, with his superhero. It doesn't look like a superhero outfit, but to me it is.
SPEAKER_00He looks a little bit like you, actually, I think, Paul.
SPEAKER_01He's got the beard. Yeah, underneath that hat, he's completely bald. That's it. But can you see he's got like a chess piece on with those precious stones? They had the names of the church people on, the ancient church people, and then on his shoulders, he's got some more that had the names of the church people on as well. So when he walked into the heavenly room, they were like, We're sort of going in. We're going in with him because he's carrying us over his heart and on his shoulders. I like the idea of the shoulders because you know, like a fireman, and if you're, you know, in a building and it's falling down and the smoke and you've lost consciousness, the fireman can put you over his shoulder and carry you out because you're too weak to be rescued. And there's this idea that this superhero person is gonna pick us up and carry us into that heaven because we haven't got the strength to get there. How are we gonna get up to the highest heaven? How are we gonna communicate with an infinite, eternal fountain of life and light? No, but he says, Don't worry about that. You sit on my shoulder and I love you. I carry you over my heart. You come with me, you come with me. And then because of him, you get to go in. And I I would have loved to have lived back then to watch this high priest going in. Of course, though, you think, no, but he's only the picture. He was only a picture. The true reality is Jesus, who by his death takes all that mess that we thought about at the beginning. When we think, oh, but we're in such a mess with the living God, and there's so much bitterness and guilt that we've got, we've made. And he says, Don't worry about that. I'll take responsibility for that, I'll pay the consequence of that. Let me die and put all that to death, and then let me come to life and carry you up to the highest heaven so that you can talk to the Father just like I do.
SPEAKER_02And this is the great truth of Jesus, our high priest, carrying us on his heart into the presence of God, so that when we when we pray in Jesus' name, if you've heard Christians praying in Jesus' name, um, that's not just like a verbal tick. It's and it's not just just a form of words that we bolt on to the end of the prayer. Um it's it's the very essence of prayer to come in the name of Jesus, to to come almost carried, well, carried by Jesus into heaven, so that you're not you're not shouting up into heaven, you're sitting at his right hand, whispering in his ear. Um, that's the difference that Jesus makes. Um Joe, you were um mentioning before some great verses from Hebrews that pick up this theme.
SPEAKER_00And I think um picking up on what I said before about I suppose the fear that I sometimes feel in my heart when I think about this uh Almighty holy God and approaching him. Um, but there is a great reassurance that uh the Lord gives us in from Hebrews um chapter four, verse 14. I'll just read a little bit. It says, Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus, the Son of God, so since we have Jesus, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For for we do not have a high priest who's unable to feel sympathy for our weakness, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet did not sin. Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. Um I just it it is extraordinary that actually now because of Jesus and in Jesus' name, we can approach not fearfully and um not in a in an uncertain way, but actually with confidence, with the promise that we will find what we need, that uh mercy and and grace in our time of need. So, you know, going from I suppose, um, how is it put that that prayer is impossible? Was that the first point? That prayer is impossible, um you know, moving over to prayer being simple, it just it's like a heart totally, totally transforms what prayer is. And and in some ways it is so so simple. It is through the Lord Jesus, our mediator.
SPEAKER_02Um it's it's wonderful. Um, we've got uh one more verse I'd love to have a look at in uh John chapter 17. So this is the fourth biography of Jesus. It's often called the high priestly prayer, um, because we're thinking about Jesus like that great Old Testament high priest, but he was actually the one. He was the one that the Old Testament priest was dressing up like. And on the night before he dies, he's praying in front of his followers, and he says, Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you've given me, because you loved me before the creation of the world. So who do you think you are, Jesus? Okay, he thinks he's older than the universe. He thinks he has been in on an eternal flow of love from the Father, crashing down on him in the spirit. Um that's who he is and who he has always been. And he said, and he says to his followers, I want you to be where I am. And again, it's that it's that whole idea of taking us by the hand and bringing us into the Niagara falls of blessing and love and the joy of the spirit and communing with uh his father so that we call him our father. This is this is the whole meaning of life, actually. The whole meaning of life is that we might be where Jesus is. And John's Gospel begins by saying, um, Jesus has always been in the embrace of the Father. It's a you know one wonderful phrase, but it's translated variously in John 1, verse 18, but he's in the embrace of the Father, he has always been there. And the whole reason for Jesus coming is that we might be where he is, uh and therefore prayer is enjoying all that we have in Jesus. So we've we've gone from something that's impossible to something that is now our second nature. Um it ought to be anyway.
SPEAKER_01It ought to be. And I like the ease of it because that love the thing about um he understands our weaknesses and things, and he it's not because one of the things, and I think somebody asked this question in the chat about saying, what if we can't concentrate or get the right emotions together? Or because that is a concern that I've I've often had that saying, I I just don't have the correct, I've not got enough sincerity or enough enthusiasm or a confidence. No, no, Paul, surely that that won't be not enough zeal. Yeah, no, but you know what I mean, or concentration, and I find I've been praying, but I've lost my train of thought, and things like that. And my feeling is oh, my concentration isn't good enough, or my emotions aren't good enough, or sincere enough, or directed. And I love this this things, this awareness where Jesus is like saying, Don't worry about that, don't worry about that. I I'll I'll handle all the correct emotions and concentration. Just stick with me, and as best as you know how, just pray. Don't worry about kind of achieving some level of perfection in prayer. He actually just says, like, idiot, he kind of says, look, there's all these sort of pagan people, and they are always trying to babble away or try and show off or achieve things in the and he's like, Don't do that, just pray as simply as you can, and just don't worry about achieving emotional authenticity or anything like that. It's not, that's just pretending. I love when Joe said that earlier, that the big challenge is just not to pretend and just be where you are with the emotional level that you're actually at and not pretending to have something. And if you're too tired to focus properly, that's how it is. Just do your best kind of thing. Because that once you know that he is doing the heavy lifting, you don't need to worry about doing the heavy lifting.
SPEAKER_00Right. I think it's uh it it is embracing that through Jesus, God is now with us and for us. And I often have to remind myself that actually no, you know, but because of the Lord Jesus, he is with me and he is for me. So I don't I don't have to be afraid to come to him, I don't have to worry about how to present myself to him, I don't need to be concerned about what he will think of me or how he'll respond to me, because I am absolutely certain he is he is with me and he is for me. Um Jesus.
SPEAKER_02The high priesthood of Jesus is is really transformative when you when you actually grasp it. I I often get that thing, like you were saying, Paul, about was I earnest enough when I prayed that. I'll sometimes get to an end of a prayer and I'll say Amen, and then I'll double my Amen and kind of as though I'm saying, I I really actually did mean it. I know I didn't mean it as much as I probably could have. I could have could have probably turned up the meaningfulness of this by, you know, turned it up to 11, but um but I'm not heard by God because of Glenn Scrivener. I'm heard by God because of Jesus Christ. Um, and he is he is perfectly zealous for the name of God. He he is, you know, he he really has meant it. You know, when you when you look at how he prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane, sweating blood, um he he is the perfect prayer, and I am carried in him. And and really prayer is just sort of saying, yeah, what Jesus said, what Amen to whatever, you know, I I just say Amen to the perfect prayers of Jesus, and I'm included by God in in his communion with the Father.
SPEAKER_00And and also the you know, the extraordinary reality that Jesus is interceding for us in heaven, that he is praying for us, and even you know, even if the best we can let out is a groan or a uh you know, help me, actually, that that that's more than enough. He's he's there, he's continues to intercede.
SPEAKER_02Imagine if he was in just in the next room and he was on his knees praying to the Father for you. He was just in the next room praying for imagine that. Well, if you know, distance makes no difference. He is praying for you right now.
SPEAKER_01And there's that lovely thing about like if we take all the members of the Trinity together, where the spirit is in us, directing our attention to Jesus, who is like taking us into the Father's presence so that we can talk to the Father. Because there's that lovely verse in Romans 8, I think it's around verse 25, 26 or something, and it says that the spirit, even when we've grown it, the spirit sort of intercedes for us as if like when we haven't got even words to speak properly, the spirit just says, I leave it with me, I'll pass that on to Jesus. And it's sort of there's that lovely way we're so carried by this living God. Once you come in in the name of Jesus, the whole Trinity surrounds you, and the Spirit will just pick everything up and pass it on to Jesus, and he'll say, I'll pray it with the right amount of zeal and in the right way. And then the Father's like, just all too eager to hear us in that way.
SPEAKER_00But can I throw in a question? Is that is that loud? Um, but then what what does it really mean to pray in Jesus' name? Is it just a kind of token, basically whatever I want in Jesus' name, tag on, and you know, one plus one equals 500? Or you know, what does it mean to actually be praying in Jesus' name to be trusting in this mediator?
SPEAKER_02My my my mind goes back to Luke chapter 11, where there is Jesus praying to the Father, and his followers are looking on and saying, This looks great. Will you teach us to pray? And then Jesus does teach them to pray, and he does actually teach them to pray the Lord's Prayer. That's how that's how Luke chapter 11 goes on. And so to pray in Jesus' name is to pray in the way of Jesus and in the way that Jesus has taught us to pray as as well. Um, so he has given us content to pray as well, you know, he has. You know, and if um do we do we even have it on a on a slide? Perhaps we can we can see what the Lord's prayer um kind of says. Our Father in heaven. Hallowed be your name, but may may your name be regarded as special, as consecrated, as sacred in all the world. May your may your kingdom come, may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread, forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For the kingdom, the power and the glory are yours now and forever. Amen. And can I have a Ferrari? Um wait, that that's that's not so much the kind of prayer that he that he teaches us to pray. So when you come in on Jesus and pray in his name, um he also gives you his priorities to pray too. That's that's the beginning of an answer I'd give.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that too. I think it's some of those verses when the Lord said in the earlier part discussion, when he is, he says, I'm not listening to you. And one of the reasons he says is because you don't listen to me. And and I think that is uh really important, that sense of trying to learn how do we pray. And Jesus both makes it possible, and there's that sense of his agenda where we can, because I initially I'm like, yeah, like the Ferrari style prayers, or I just want, oh, this is great. I want all these sorts of things, and he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on, hang on. These they're not necessarily very good things for you at all, Paul. And you don't know what you're asking, just hang on. And I love this sense that he kind of patiently does teach us to say, listen, let let me let me change the desires of your heart. Let me help help you to think higher, that thing about his kingdom and his will and things like that. And there's that sense that he sort of trains us to think on a bigger level, a better way, and things like that. So I I can't, I think that's something to be because his name is who he is. It's his character, it's what his agenda is, his name. So when we pray in his name, partly it's like you said that it's about trusting as the high priest, the mediator, that we get an audience. But I think as well, it's something to do with getting on board with his character and his agenda and his will and his kingdom, rather than, because in and that's why I like in the Lord's Prayer when he says our Father in Heaven, because initially I want to go, oh Lord, I've done so many things wrong. I want to talk about those things. And then Jesus says, Whoa, whoa, whoa, we'll get to those in a minute. Why don't we first of all get a big vision of the Father in heaven and his kingdom and big things, and then we'll get to that stuff about what you need today and all the things you've done wrong. I find that so against my instincts. I want to go on about my problems and all the things I've done wrong. And he's like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's do it this way.
SPEAKER_02Let me gather together um three questions that are all um fairly similar in what they're asking. So um Hilton Bellinger is asking, if God is in control and his will be done, as we've just seen, what purpose is my prayer? How do my prayers change anything? Um uh Howard's also asked, is prayer about changing things or changing ourselves? Uh and Daniel has asked, how can we know that prayer actually works? So yeah, does does prayer change things?
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, of course.
SPEAKER_00But do you know what this is is I think this is a really important distinction because as I mentioned before, with these different uh sort of versions of prayer out there, um there's there's a sense in which prayer might change you, it might change your your perception of yourself or of the world, but it doesn't actually change anything else, um, which I think is very different to prayer within um a kind of Christian understanding of of who God is and and of prayer itself, because you are you are relating to God, you're having a relationship with him, you are seeing yourself differently because when you come to him and there there's a set and read his word and talk to him, you are seeing yourself as reflected in a mirror. So you you do have a change of perception of yourself, you do have a change of perception of the world because you know, as Paul said, it there's something about prayer, and particularly when we pray in along the lines that the Lord Jesus wants us to pray, whether it be the Lord's Prayer or the Psalms, that it does just enlarge your vision. Suddenly, my world has just expanded from my little problem. But there is also the reality that prayer does change things. We are talking to the living God, and he is powerful, and we have countless examples within scripture of him genuinely listening to prayer and answering prayer. And I it is totally mind-blowing, I think, trying to work out well, hold on, he knows everything before it happens, and he's in control of everything, and he gives us you know every good sort of um pull to pray and all that sort of stuff. But there is a reality from our point of view that he takes our prayers and he uses them to accomplish something. Um, and that's a great reassurance to me because I think you know, when I'm old and grey, God willing, and um I can't move, I could still potentially change the world.
SPEAKER_02Wow, praying. Wow. Because uh help us help us with that, Paul. Like, if if God's gonna change stuff, why doesn't he just say change stuff? Why does he need you know the little prayers of Glenn Scrivener in order to get stuff done? What or or why does God include us in that greater thing he's doing? What's the what's the purpose of that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's good though, because um I think uh some people's idea is like God just wants to run the universe and have everything just exactly as he wants, and all we should do is just stay in our proper place and not mess around. Don't move things, I put that there, kind of thing. And yet, that is a totally false view because remember the relationship he's talking about is marriage. He actually begins the Bible with this uh man and a woman getting married, and then the I don't want to spoil the ending if you've not read the end of the Bible, but it ends with a marriage too, but it's God getting married, and he's sort of we might think of ourselves like, oh, we're just these little nobodies, and we why should he change the universe or do what we say? Because there's even one story in in a book called Joshua, chapter 10, where this guy, Joshua, that's the and that means that's named Jesus. There's a guy called Jesus that lived sort of 1,500 years before Jesus was born. And he one time, there's all these new people that like new Christians that join the ancient church, and when they get in trouble, he one time says, I want the sun to stand still for a whole day. And I'm like, whoa, like the the administrative problems of that for a solar system, you can't trade things like that. That's ridiculous, and yet, of course, it just happens, and then you're thinking, but that because the Lord God, He regards us this Lord Jesus, the eternal son of the Father, as Glenn said, this son who's lived for infinite ages enjoying his father. His father sort of says, It's not good that my son is alone. I want to get him married, and that's what the history of the universe is about, him getting married.
SPEAKER_02Those who trust him become like the bride. They become right, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And they even so that those of us who get on board with Jesus and have this relationship with him, we are his bride in this big cosmic sense. So, of course, he listens to us, and there's this incredible way where he does things, which I'm like you, Glenn, where I'm thinking, but the mechanics of the universe, the balls clacking together, the cogs, how can he he just can't stop the sun, or he can't change the weather because we prayed for it, or he can't like and he's like, Don't worry about that. I will move heaven and earth for you because you are my bride. I love you, I laid down my life for you. There is nothing I wouldn't do for you. We never pray too much, we always pray too little. There's this lovely verse that says, He does more than we can think or imagine when we pray. And that's because of that fundamental relationship. We are not little tiny insects to him. We, right, when we are together as church, this big sense, we are who he's getting married to.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And the world is not a machine, it's a miracle, and it doesn't run on principles, it runs on prayer because we have a father um who's who's ordering the cosmos according to his children. Um, so therefore pray, right? Um, let's let's finish with some getting practical, okay? Um, we've been thinking um with some very big picture um great uh truths about how prayer works and and why prayer works and what prayer is. Um let's get down to nitty-gritty. And how do we how do we actually settle down to pray? What tips would you give to someone who's just wanting to settle down and pray for the first time, Jo?
SPEAKER_00Um I'll throw one in that isn't necessarily the most important, but I know it certainly helped me. Um I talked on Monday about the fact that we are embodied souls, and there is something I think important about recognizing that when we come to pray. So thinking very practically, like, where are you? How are you standing? Are you sitting? Are you kneeling? Um, is there distractions? Um you know, just all of those kind of very basic, physically related things. I think if someone, well, I I know helps me. Um I know it helps me to find some space and time away from the kids, even if it's in the bathroom. Um, and actually getting down on my knees, there's something about recognizing who I'm speaking to, and by embodying that, it helps me to do that. Also speaking out loud. Um my mind will drift and wander, um, whereas actually verbalizing it out loud. Sometimes I walk down the street as I did today and pretend I'm on my phone just so I can pray out loud as I'm walking. Um, it it reminds me that this isn't just an internal processing in my head that I'm talking to someone. Um, it helps me to be more honest, um, actually. Uh it helps me to yeah, keep my train of thought and remember what I'm doing rather than thinking about what dinner should be on.
SPEAKER_02Very good. What about Paul? What's what are some practical ways forward for prayer?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I really like um I have my little book of common prayer here. Um, and I like that sort of some sort of fixed and written prayers. I uh that's why I like the Lord's Prayer so much. It's a fixed prayer, and one time Jesus said, just say this, because sometimes you're tired, you're stressed, you're fearful, you're in the middle of the night, and just to be able, so I I don't know, I don't know, I can't get the words right. If I that's a good one because he's normally on the other end of the telephone, and he's like saying, Hey, I'll tell you, here's one that's a good one. I would like to hear this one when I'm on the other end of, because he's normally on the other end of it. But um I like, I have quite these set prayers, there's all sorts of super ones, morning prayer, evening prayer, and it's good because it just keeps me structured and helps to make sure I get a good diet in my prayer rather than just obsessing about what I'm currently worried about. It forces me to pray about that big sense of the kingdom, the will, his holiness, and get a sense of the fact that when we're praying, we're this we're with this whole bride of Christ, our church family. I'm not on my own. The whole church is carrying me. St. Crispin's, I love it when we pray together because I haven't got the energy to pray sometimes. Or I haven't got the and then we're praying together, carrying each other in with Jesus, and that sense that there are angels and archangels and all the company of heaven involved in this. I love that sense that you're never on your own in prayer, you're just part of this huge assembly of the bride of Christ.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and as well as the Book of Common Prayer, the Psalms. I mean, we are given a prayer book in the Bible, which is right in the middle of the Bible. If you open it up in the middle, you'll normally hit a psalm or two. Um, and you know, similarly picking up on that collective point, you know, psalms were written to be said or sung in community with others, but also some are deeply personal. And uh it just yeah, it struck me that because prayer is a conversation, I I am responding to God, and God needs to, the Lord God needs to teach me how to pray, and the psalms are given us just for that. I mean, they they cover just a whole host of situations and emotions from grief to joy to loneliness to anger to just all different kinds of situations and experiences. Um and so I that that's particularly actually at the moment with all the coronavirus stuff that's going on, I found that actually I I almost had to force myself to read a psalm and pray a psalm three times a day and do that more than I listen to the news. Um, because it did just renew my vision of who God is and and teach me how to pray.
SPEAKER_02I love it. I love it. Let's uh let's sum some of those points up. Um, so in terms of how to pray, um let's listen first. Um we need to know who it is we're praying to, and this is why we spent so long in talking about coming to the Father in the name of Jesus and by the Holy Spirit. We need we need to we need to know who this God is, and and then we'll start to talk to him. Um use what we've been given. So we've been given the Lord's Prayer. Um, can you see the Lord's Prayer maybe a bit like a a Christmas tree? And you use the branches um to sort of dangle your own particular prayers on. So this is an image that uh C.S. Lewis uses about the Lord's Prayer. It's like a Christmas tree that we've been given, and each line of the Lord's Prayer is like a branch. And as you pray, our Father in heaven, um, then you start to hang your baubles on that particular line and say, Oh, it's amazing that you're my father and I'm your son. Could that really be? I praise you for that. And then you move on to the next line and you add your baubles along the way. Use what we're given. There's the Lord's Prayer, or there's the Psalms, or as Paul's been talking about, other uh more modern um helps, uh, prayers that people have used down through the ages. Um and then Joe's spoken about remember, we're physical. So, you know, is there a physical space we need to get into? Is there a physical posture we need to get into? Is there um actual time we need to carve out in the day? And the answer to those questions is is yes. Um, and do we need to maybe articulate our prayers, pray out loud, that sort of thing? Um that's incredibly helpful. And then really a huge point. Um, remember community. Um, Paul, do you want to just in a minute sum up why do we need to remember community when we pray?
SPEAKER_01I think that is that sense that we're not on our own again. That sense, and and I find it so important because Christ did everything he did for church, for that bride. And that when he gathers in, he's that sense in which right at the beginning of the Bibles, there's this story, Adam and Eve, and Adam's created, and then the Lord says, Hey, it's not good to be on your own. And that's like one of the first things that's addressed. Don't be on your own. Like, because on our own we become dysfunctional and get all messed up, and that sense of when we come to the Lord, he's pulling us in together around his son, and he's we we get drawn in and we start to share life and pray for one another. There's nothing like that. You might say, Oh, don't get on with that person, pray for them. Because as you pray for them, you find everything changes and you suddenly care for them. And he even says, pray for your enemies. So even sometimes that you say, I can't, I'm gonna die, not that that person. He's like, No, no, pray for them, pray for them, that they'll get on board with this, then you can spend all eternity with them. You know, I don't want that. No, you do want it, but you do want it, and that's the lovely thing with prayer. It does change us from loners into family, and it's a family that, yes, you've got your local church family, but you start to learn you've kind of got this family that goes back to these old testament saints with Moses and people from all over the world, all down through history, this amazing family and prayer, you get a sense of that, that you're with this huge family of people pulling in together around the living God.
SPEAKER_02It'd be great to perhaps round off um with prayer this evening. Um, I know, Paul, you you often have a prayer that you use at your church uh in St. Crispin's. Uh, how does it go? Lord Jesus, as best as I know how, I want in on what you've got. That's that's a kind of a prayer that that you encourage people to pray, even though it's impossible. It's impossible apart from Jesus. But if you come to Jesus, our great mediator, you can say, Lord Jesus, as best as I know how, I want in on what you've got. Um, and I just wonder whether I could pray that for people. And and and maybe you you want to pray that prayer yourself wherever you are uh tonight or whenever it is that you're watching this. Um let me pray for us. It's a simple thing. Let me pray. Lord Jesus, as best as I know how I want in on what you've got. Amen. Amen. And as we say, it's a team sport, this Christian thing. So uh do find others uh who can help get alongside you. Do find a church uh where you can be a part of things, and uh, we'd love to help uh connect you to somewhere local to you. So if you don't know, I don't know any Christians around, we'll get you in touch with a good church uh around the place so that you can get in on this thing that Jesus is offering to the world. Guys, thank you so much for joining us. Joe, thank you for joining us. And thank you, Paul, for joining us as well. Um Paul and Joe will be back again with us on Friday night uh when we're gonna talk about how do I face my fragility? Um there's a sickness going around. I don't know if you've heard about this. There's a sickness going around, and it's serious, and it's got it's gotten us, you know, dusting off the will and starting to write out and making sure it's up to date. And my my will has not been up to date, and oh my goodness. And and facing our fragility when we thought we were gonna live forever. How do we actually do that with hope, with Easter hope? We're gonna be talking about that on Friday. Please do come along, please do uh bring your friends. Uh we're gonna end the uh Facebook Live uh in just a couple of minutes. Uh, those on the Zoom chat, if you want to jump in on the Zoom chat, um, I'm gonna be around for the next few minutes if you want to uh keep the conversation going. And we we might even unmute you and actually have a party. Um so come come in on Zoom if you're not already. Um, but we're gonna go to a little video that'll explain uh some of the next steps that you can take to sign up to our next webinars. And then we're gonna end uh Facebook Live and then we're gonna jump onto the Zoom chat. So let's roll tape and uh bye-bye to those on Facebook. Thank you so much for joining us on the Speak Life Podcast. Do give us a rating and review if you can. And uh, if you're on social media, you can keep up with us at Speak Life UK. That's our address, Speak Life UK, on Facebook and Twitter, and Instagram. We are Speak Life Media on YouTube. You will find everything you need on speaklife.org.uk. But thank you so much for joining us. Tune in next time. Bye bye.