Hey there, welcome to the Speak Life Podcast. My name is Glenn Scrivener, so glad to have your company. Thanks for tuning in for these three special podcasts. They are recordings of some webinars that we did a few weeks ago, just as we were beginning to lock down in the UK. As we were all asking some fairly deep questions. Questions like how do I face my anxiety? How do I learn how to pray? Perhaps even for the first time, and how do I face my fragility when I thought I was gonna live forever. These are three existential topics that everybody is asking, and we thought we would ask some of uh the wisest people that I know. Uh, I asked Dr. Joe Jackson, a counsellor working in London, and the Reverend Dr. Paul Blackham, who is a church leader and author. And between the three of us, we engage with some of these deep issues. Thank you so much for joining us. And if you do like this, why don't you share it around with friends and family as we are all grappling with these very deep issues. So without further ado, I give you how do I handle my anxiety. Welcome, one and all. My name is Glenn Scrivener. I am the host of the Speak Life Podcast. And uh, as such, I'm used to hosting lots of discussions about uh very interesting topics and the things that really matter in life. And it's my great uh privilege and thrill uh to have with us this evening uh Dr. Joe Jackson and Reverend Dr. Paul Blackham as we think about these issues of anxiety. Uh, a little word of introduction for myself. Uh I am uh an ordained minister in the Church of England. And just to say, if you're new to speak life and those sorts of things, um, we're Christians, but uh we really love talking about the ancient scriptures and how relevant they are to modern life. And if you're not yet uh a Christian yourself, you're really, really welcome uh to join the conversation and to figure out whether Jesus has something to say into our modern crisis. And if you don't think that's the case right now, well, let's see uh how you think about things in the next few minutes. For the next hour, we're gonna be thinking about anxiety and how to face our anxieties. Um I'll get our guests to introduce themselves uh in a second uh and to introduce the ways in which they might have been anxious um in the last two or three weeks. And uh let me let me introduce myself first. I am so I'm Glenn Scrivener, I'm uh minister in the Church of England. My day job is to talk to people about Jesus, um, many of whom uh are not yet followers of Jesus. And I was most anxious three weeks ago. I remember my my daughter, five years old, Ruby, had a cough and a really uh a hacking bark of a cough. And she would cough about every 30 seconds, all through the night. Major fever. And of course, that gets you Googling. And you know, do children get coronavirus? And are children going to die of coronavirus? And and the, you know, some scare stories, a lot of comfort that I got actually from Dr. Google, which is unusual from Dr. Google. Usually you only get further anxiety. Um, but then the the next day I found myself in the mirror in in the bathroom, and I just I just hated my hair. And I I just like took a hack. I just hacked a little lock of my hair off, and then I was like, oh, what should I do? I'll just hack another bit and I'll hack another bit and I'll hack another bit. And I was like, am I anxious? Am I worried? Maybe I am. Maybe COVID-19 has has got to me. Um these these times are very anxiety-producing, and I wonder if there's any way of facing those anxieties. Uh, let's go across to Dr. Joe Jackson in London. And uh can you introduce us uh to yourself, Joe, and let us know uh have you been anxious in the last few weeks?
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Um good evening, all. Uh, my name is Joe. I am a counselling psychologist and as Glenn said, based here in London. Um, I work mainly with adults. Um I as well as that, I have four children who are um two, five, seven, and nine. And in terms of my anxious moment, I think it was the point at which I realized that they were not going to go back to school on the Monday. Um, I recall staying up rather late, researching all the educational apps that were out there and frantically trying to download them onto the iPad. Um and yeah, I think trying to trying to figure out what life would look like with having four uh small people at home as well as trying to juggle work and other responsibilities.
SPEAKER_03Uh let's go across to North London and uh Reverend Dr. Paul Blackham. Uh introduce yourself, Paul, and and let us let us know into let us into the dark cellar of your fears.
SPEAKER_02Oh, oh man, that's a scary one. Yeah. I'm Paul Buckham. I'm uh married to Liz, three children. Uh boys are older than university, one doing engineering, one doing medieval studies in Wales. They're both in Wales. Uh Jonathan in Swansea, PJ in Lampertur, and then Anna, it's tomorrow is her 14th birthday. So there's a certain level of excitement about that. I've been a minister for nearly 25 years, 11 years at uh all souls in London, and then most of the time I've been doing church planting around the country, really trying to reach the sort of people who would say, Oh, I'll never go to church, and uh trying to set up churches that they might do. Um and anxiety, yes. Um I've seen lots of the I I am a sort of naturally super anxious, intense person. Um so I I've had I've had loads of opportunities to go pretty to get deep into anxiety in the past three or four weeks. And I remember there was a moment where I'd spent two or three hours going into different websites and looking at people's Facebook posts, and like, oh, they've got like an interesting little angle, and they've got a they've learned something from somebody who knows a doctor who whose cousin had spoken to that and and this sort of thing. And then I was looking at all different kinds of stats, and oh, is the Imperial College? They've got a view, Oxford's got another view, and all the different statistics, and then three hours later I'm just like burrowing down into it. And what am I doing? What am I doing? I'm becoming completely obsessed with this thing that it makes no difference whether I look at stats or not, or anything like that, and it only make myself become anxious and wasting time, and then the whole and I could just imagine every day would become like that if I wasn't very careful, and allowing this thing to focus and have the absolute focus of my mind and heart. And I and I'd seen it, so I've I've had to really sort of catch myself and just say, okay, you can look at one news story and that's it. Yes, because otherwise I know what happens.
SPEAKER_03Because there's a real crisis of expertise happening at the moment, like who do you trust? And and that was sort of highlighted by Brexit and that sort of thing. And and did did the politicians know what they were doing? And we all concluded not so much. Um, but now it's life or death, and it's an intensified crisis of who do we trust and which experts are the real ones, and and yeah, and and and how do you weigh up expertise in a domain that you've got no experience in? And yeah, you just gotta lie back and take it and and recognize that you're out of control.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And that's that's the last thing you want to you want to recognize, really. Um so we're we're thinking about this issue of of anxiety and what it is that makes us anxious. Maybe you're listening in, and maybe you're thinking, I'm not really anxious. I'm kind of a lackadaisical, sort of take it easy guy. Um that that's that's the persona that I have kind of adopted for many decades now, and it's served me well. It's this sort of Australian laconic, ah, she'll be right, mate, kind of thing that a lot of Australian males have. And uh interestingly and tragically as well, um uh Australian males actually commit suicides um at uh an astonishing rate, higher than than any other kind of um uh demographic of young men. So Australian young men are particularly at risk from suicide, and we're particularly invested in a she'll be right, mates, it's all alright, no worries kind of uh an attitude. And it and it's made me reflect that actually I'm not as no worries as I might want to project to the world. And actually, I worry about a whole bunch of stuff, and the persona, the mask that I wear in the world as no worries, um slips pretty easily. And my daughter coughs and I start hacking at my hair with with a with a pair of nail scissors. And may maybe I'm full of anxieties, and I think I am full of anxieties because I I often give this um uh exercise to people. Like if they if they don't think they're worried, um just write down all the things they don't tend to do. Um, all the all the jobs that you just put off. You know, that phone call, I can do it tomorrow, I can do it next week, you know, all the DIY that that ought to happen in the house, and you and you sort of you know say, honey, you know, I I will fix the shelves. You don't need to keep reminding me every six months, um, you know, all these things that we just tend not to do. And you just ask yourself the question, you could you could fill up a whole notepad with all the things you don't do. Why don't you do them? Um is it because you're so lackadaisical and and no worries, or is it because you're full of fear? Um, how prevalent is fear, Joe? How what what kind of a problem is this for the human animal?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think it's a huge problem. Um as as we've just shared, anxiety affects us all. It's part of what it means to be human. And uh whilst we often wish we didn't feel anxious, I think it's also important to recognize that there are there is a part of anxiety that actually is really important. Um, it protects us from danger, it's part of that fight, flight response that we have. That when there's a threat, we have a surge of adrenaline, our heart beats faster, um, blood gets to our muscles quicker, uh, we have just a kind of tunnel vision. So there is uh part of anxiety, the fear response that is a good thing, but of course, it it gets disordered. Um, as with all of our reactions. At times we feel anxious uh for too long, we feel anxious too much, we feel anxious about the wrong things. It's one thing if there's a scary dog barking at you in an alleyway, it's another thing when you wake up on a Monday morning and before you've even got dressed, you're you're filled with anxiety. So yeah, I think it's something that that we probably can all identify with um in some shape or form. Um clinically, uh it's also a massive issue. Um, so as with all clinical diagnoses, it's on a spectrum. Um, but uh anxiety is is probably the most common uh mental health diagnosis. Mixed anxiety and depression affects about just under 8% of the UK population um at any one time, um, which is a huge amount if you think about it. But then second to that is generalized anxiety disorder, which is about 6%. Then you've also got PTSD, which is about 4.4%, and you've also got panic disorders and a whole host of other anxiety-based diagnoses. So I think if you if you put all of those together, um, yeah, it is it is by far one of the uh biggest um mental health struggles that we have in our uh in our society and I think probably globally as well.
SPEAKER_03And and exacerbated massively by the current crisis. What what is it particularly that you think is is pushing people's buttons in terms of anxiety right now?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, for many um we worry about our health anyway, and this obviously just massively accentuates that. Um it's this, but I think it's mostly this unknown. There's so much that we that we don't know about this virus, there's so much that we're not in control of. Um we can't see it, um, we can't pinpoint it, we can't control it, um, at least not uh in a kind of direct and definite kind of way. So I think the the unknown is a big one, and that's what anxiety is all about. It's about the what ifs, you know, what if that was to happen? And and you never get an answer to that. But I think as well, there's there's a loneliness that that we face. Um, and I think as Paul was mentioning, when you get locked in your own thoughts, when you're by yourself, you can you can drive yourself crazy with all your um worries and concerns. So yeah, I think there's there's a whole host of things, financial worries for some people, um, you know, many, many things.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yes. Health we we tend to trust in, wealth we tend to trust in. Both of those are massively stripped away from us, and we're left by ourselves with our own thoughts. There's there's a recipe for anxiety. Um, is that making you worried right now, Paul? Even even as I diagnose the problem?
SPEAKER_02Well, it is though, because the uh not so much now, but it gets to those things that our anxieties reveal our obsessions and the things that matter most to me, and it's when they are threatened, the thing because I have discovered that about myself that I'll talk to someone who's very anxious about something, and I'm like, I'm not bothered about that, it doesn't bother me at all, and genuinely may not. So it's like I get in our home, we've done a lot of homeschooling for like uh yeah, probably 10-15 years. So I wasn't stressed about that genuinely, but you have lots to teach me. Okay, yeah, it'll be the next one. Yeah, but that was something that wasn't that was for me not that big stress on. So, but this thing, so I'm like, can listen to one person and go, I know it doesn't make stress, but then it would be other things that I'm like, oh, but I'm really stressed about, you know, and and life, I've always noticed that that what our anxieties do, they'll reveal the things that like get to us about you know our family or children we want to do, and we because we care about things, we and they mean a lot to us, and sometimes those are good things, the the good things to be concerned about. But anxieties reveal our focus, is that what yeah, they reveal our focus, and it's what we what we spend, it's like when Jesus says, and this is again why I like him so much is that he just says in a tiny little phrase something that you know you someone else might take a 700-page sort of thing to wade out, but he'll just say, Look, um, where your your treasure is, where your treasure is, that is where your heart is. In other words, what the thing you value, focus on, invest in, that's where your heart is. That's where your life is, that's what you're about. And so I find that's the case with anxiety, is that if I'm cut if I'm like always bothering about my health, any threat to my health, even if it's just ridiculous, and I'll have some little pain or some little symptom, which you know, um a sane person would just be like, Oh, isn't that nothing? But if that's my thing, my obsession, then I'm like, oh that god, that that could be any one of these things, and then I'm suddenly like Dr. Google, whatever, and I'm way down a rabbit warrant. And it what it reveals is what I focus on, and that is the thing I I find so interesting. What do I allow myself to focus on?
SPEAKER_03And yet in the scriptures, the the the number one command from Genesis to Revelation is do not worry.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, isn't that brilliant? But actually, it's as if the Lord actually knows what we're like. Yeah, it's and of course that's what's beautiful where people say, Oh, people don't, no one can get me. And I'm always say to people, particularly people who've never been to church, I'll say, honestly, when you meet this Jesus guy, you'll find he does it actually get you. Even those funny little things that you would never tell anybody, oh, he gets them. And when you read the Bible, it turns out that it that happens a lot where you're reading stuff, and it's like, oh my goodness, that's got me. And and that that is what happens where he says more times than most repeated command is it's not like keep off the grass, stop touching things, you know, don't enjoy yourself. People think that's what the big commands of the Bible are, but actually the biggest one is like, hey, look, don't be afraid, guys. What you need to do, and then he always gives a reason. He doesn't just say he doesn't just say stop it, stop it, put yourself together. Stop being anxious, or I'm gonna do you. And then you're like, oh my god, I'm so anxious. So he doesn't do that, he says, Don't be anxious, because basically he always gives the same answer, but he it you it has all sorts of different packaging. But the answer's basically because I'm here, right? I'm here, right? And uh there's lots of things.
SPEAKER_03I love that verse. Uh Isaiah 43, we've got it up on the slide. It's it's this is this is my mother's favorite verse. Um, so Elizabeth Scrivener, if you're watching, here we are. This is this is for you. You know, when you pass through the waters, I will be with you. Um, which is not a promise that you won't pass through the waters. Um, the the these waters uh are very scary places, right? You could you could drown in waters, you know. There was a flood. Um, these are these are things to be to be scared of in one sense. But when you pass through the waters, I will be with you. Why is that a comfort, Paul?
SPEAKER_02I think it's because there's um nearly all my favorite verses in the Bible are from the Old Testament, that first section of a Bible, if you've got one. Um, but it's probable that my actual favorite is from the New Testament, which people who know me are like, no, surely not. No, honestly, it's it's in Matthew 11, and it's towards the end, and it's when Jesus says, Listen, um, he's talking to his father because this the father has sent Jesus, the father, son, and holy spirit have always existed from all eternity, and then they created the universe, and then there's this point where the father sends Jesus, and uh he always gives him all the authority of the spirit, but he says to him, and Jesus says, Listen, father, you have given everything in the universe into my control, I'm running the universe. Jesus actually says that, and then he says, So if you, and now he's just speaking to all human beings everywhere at all times in the way, he just says, So if you are stressed out and life's just too much for you to carry, just come to me, I'll give you rest. Because he's saying, Look, I've got I've got it, I can carry the weight of all those things that you can't bear, and I can I I can handle all that, I can carry the universe, I'm doing that. So just come to me and I promise you I'll give you rest, and then I'll show you how to live in such a way that's easy and non-stressful, how to enter into a kind of peaceful way of living so that you no longer are anxious about being in control or what's going to happen tomorrow. Because that's what it's really all about. It's like, what if, what if, and then then I couldn't face this, and and he's like, no, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's just do today. Let me show you how to do today. Because what's that?
SPEAKER_03Actually, yeah, what is fear? What is anxiety, Joe? Like what's what what are our our anxieties diagnosing? What's what's what's at the heart of our fears?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think, I mean, as Paul said, it reveals what we focus on, it reveals what we value. I think for most people ultimately, if this isn't too heavy on a Monday night, uh, ultimately we fear death. Um, we fear that final end. And um, and I suppose there are there are other kind of little deaths along the way or little losses that we also fear, and they can be all sorts of things, you know, loss of reputation, loss of comfort, um, you know, loss of particular people, um yeah, reputation, finances. Um, so I think it yeah, so I think it's it it's it's associated with loss.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah and and all those kind of yeah, little unknowns and so if I if I came to you in a professional capacity and we sat down together and I I told you about my anxieties, what what are some of the first things you'd you'd want to be doing to help me to process those those anxieties?
SPEAKER_00Hmm. Well, uh there's something about anxiety which makes us uh makes our thinking, or our thinking is very fast, it's very quick. Um we can't almost catch up with ourselves. So I think one of the things is probably to slow down. Um, and just as the Lord listens to us um talking about favorite verses, one of my favorite verses um is again from the Old Testament where where God says, Um humble yourself beneath my mighty hand and I will lift you up at the right time. Cast all your anxieties on me because I care for you, or cast all your anxieties on him because he cares for you. And just the idea that with God we are coming to a person, and there is something so valuable about having someone who you can trust, who is trustworthy to actually. Tell all the things that you're worried about too. Um, and I suppose for me and the role that I have, I have the privilege of being hopefully someone who is trustworthy and uh who we can kind of talk together about some of those things. So that's one of the first things.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's great. Paul, for for yourself in in handling your own fears and anxieties, what what is it that helps you?
SPEAKER_02I've had to learn sort of the hard way, uh, because I I suppose I always thought it was almost like a magical thing that I would just kind of go, I'm really anxious, and then I'll just say, Oh, well, I'll I'll just pray and then hope it all goes away. Minds, oh no, either I'll ask God to take away the all the um things that like, oh, I'm worried about um, I don't know, you know, I'm worried about a trip I'm going on. So, Lord, would you make it so I don't have to go on that trip? So I'd sometimes do that, but that was I kind of learned now that's silly, because that's like uh you can't take away all the the anxiety.
SPEAKER_03You would just shrink your world then. Exactly. Actually, you would find that your fears increase and that your world decreases and you magnify down into this little, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, or I'd sort of go, Lord, can you just make it so I'm not not nervous or anxious about anything anymore? And it's as if I find out learned over time, he'd say, hang on, hang on, let's figure out what's going on inside you. Instead of just waving a magic wind and making the things make your feelings disappear. We need to know why those feelings are happening, Paul. We need to get the bonnet open and have a route around and figure out what's going on inside there. Because if I just magic them away, we won't figure out why you're like that and what we like idols in the Bible, there's tons about idols, like false gods or worshiping things you've made. And uh it's interesting that people don't just get rid of them in a gentle way, like you know, gently remove them. They have to smash them in the Bible because it when you get to these things that matter to you, and then you're obsessed about, you gotta kind of smash them down. So I found that that's what he would do with me over the years as I follow Jesus, and he'd say, Okay, right, let's get into this stuff. What's make what's going on? And what I found, what the big lesson is, and it's such an obvious thing, it's when because Jesus is teaches about let's just do today, let's just do today, today. And so that was always the thing that I've learned that I dare not go into the day unless if I just allow my mind to run free like we're it and just think about any agenda or just listen to all the voices that are out there. Any of those voices can give me anxieties or take me down all sorts of rubbish things. What I need to do is take control of the focus of my heart and mind straight away when I wake up. It's that it's and the Bible's full of this business about you know, manage your mind, manage what you believe, what is true, know what is true, focus on what the living God says, like that. So it's that daily mind management.
SPEAKER_03Daily mind management. Have you have you trademarked that phrase? I like it. Daily mind management.
SPEAKER_02No, it should be done though, shouldn't it, yeah?
SPEAKER_03Because what I love when when Jesus teaches the Lord's Prayer, and people might know the Lord's Prayer, it's most famous prayer, I guess, from the Bible, our Father in Heaven, hallowed be your name. And and it's got that bit um where um Jesus gets us to pray, um, give us today our daily bread. And that's kind of putting us in touch with what happened in the Old Testament, where God's people were taken out of slavery and they're headed to the land of milk and honey, but in the meantime, they're in this desert place, this place of scarcity. And God feeds them every day with this miraculous provision of daily bread. Um, and if they if they try to hoard too much, um it's got worms in it, maggots in it, which is which is really interesting. Could you imagine if that happened? You know, some someone uh you know hoards too much toilet paper and they they go back and instead it's it's just like turn to maggots or something like that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they they they deserve it! They deserve it! Poetic justice! Yeah, yes.
SPEAKER_03What I find fascinating about everyone pointing the finger at the toilet roll holders uh hoarders is that we are the hoarders. It's just it's just that everyone's buying five percent extra. We would love there to be some terrible person out there. It's like it's me, I am the terrible one. Um but yeah, if people wanted to be a hoarder back in the old testament, then they they would they would find that you know the extra ended up rotting. If they went out on the day they were meant to take off, they found nothing. It was this sort of discipleship regime, this sort of the life coaching regime, where you God just gave you enough, and it's not give us today our daily cake, and it's not give me today all the bread that I'll need for the next three weeks, it's give me today my daily bread. And how how how do we how do we live day to day? Because like we are anxious people who always want to control our little realm um and make sure that we we have enough. How is it, Joe, that we can trust the far horizon to somebody else? How how is it that we can actually live and and say, give me today my daily bread? If I've got if I've got my necessities for today, that will be enough. How can you actually live that way?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think just like in the Old Testament with um the manner that God provided, it is it is something that you learn and something that you need to be taught and something that you grow in. It doesn't happen overnight. Um, it is a daily practice of entrusting yourself to God. Um, I love the the uh kind of principle of the manner and and give us today our daily bread because you know, with anxiety, I I often think about, oh, well, how am I going to cope with how am I gonna cope with X or Y or Z that's gonna happen next week or could happen next month or might happen with this person? Um, but the reality is if it hasn't happened today, then I don't have the resources to cope with it. Um, and I can absolutely be certain because of God's proven faithfulness, that tomorrow I have the resources for tomorrow, and and to and to not expect to be able to cope with all of those uh future imaginings of of the next day. So, I mean talking picking up on that daily mind management, I think there is um something important there about uh thinking about what you are paying attention to and what truth you are listening to. Um, and in Psalm one, uh the beginning of Psalm 1, it talks about uh blessed as a person and says who who meditates on God's law day and night. Um, and with the coronavirus, it's it's easy to meditate on the the latest news story, or indeed with any of our anxieties to to, as we've said, go to Dr. Google or think about all sorts of other things. But there's I think there's a discipline and something important and actually choosing what you're going to pay attention to, what you're gonna fill your mind with, what truth you're gonna hold on to that day. And that is a daily thing. You can't do that for tomorrow, you can only do it for today.
SPEAKER_03So and I guess that that context in Matthew 6 is he's always talking about there's a father, there's a father. Yeah, and this is a father's world.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. And it's um, you know, one of the things that I've enjoyed today actually is just looking out the window. And we've put a bird feeder up just outside so we can see the birds coming to us, and and I love that because it is just a daily reminder that there is that, well, Matthew talks about that there is a heavenly father who feeds the birds, who clothes the uh the flowers with with beauty, and um being able to look out the window and see those birds and see those flowers, even if I can't go out and and touch them. It's just a reminder that actually there is someone who is keeping this world ticking over. Um, it may feel fearful, things may feel out of control, I might not know what is gonna come about tomorrow. But there is someone who is feeding those birds every day, there was someone who is sustaining those flowers every moment, there's someone who is making the sunrise every morning and the wind blow. And that's not down to me, uh, that's not down to our government, that's not down to the scientists, um, that's down to God, who is a heavenly father and who was good.
SPEAKER_03We've got a great question that's just just come in on Zoom chat. And um, somebody's asked, how do you juggle focusing day to day and not worrying about future problems and not being prepared for those issues? Because this um there's a great clip you can find online of Christopher Hitchens, who was not just an atheist, he was an anti-theist. He thought it would be a terrible thing if God actually existed. And he said the most immoral teaching of the New Testament is take no thought for the morrow. Um, don't be anxious about tomorrow, because he said this would never, you you would never save up for your retirement, that there'd be no thrift, there'd be no industry, there'd be no for forward planning. Um, this is this is ridiculous, this teaching from Jesus. Um, how do how do we respond to that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um I that's a good one because he obviously I mean, he's obviously not particularly read the Bible very closely. What it's because there's lots in the Bible about saying to make proper provision for the future, to make sure you know you've saved something or your children are cared for and provided for. There's that sort of proper thing. But that's not what this anxiety business is about. The anxiety business is all this stressing about the future in a totally unproductive and worthless way, trying to live tomorrow, but trying to do it today. It's like, no, no, if you could what you might find useful to do for tomorrow is you might, I don't know, make some food, put it in the freezer, whatever. Like that's a you that's that's kind of a useful thing to do. But if you're trying to live tomorrow and the day after and the day after, now and anticipating it and going through it all, that is ridiculous. Does this the that really hit home to me most powerfully? Where with Jesus, he the the whole story of Jesus is this is the living God who comes down and becomes a human being in order to ultimately die. The whole point of him doing this is to die. And but what he's doing, the reason Christians have crosses and this total fixation on the death of Jesus, it's the death of God. Because the idea is he's gonna carry all the kind of consequences of all evil and concentrate it onto himself and die this utterly godforsaken, wretched death. It's the worst death possible, it's bearing hell. I mean, there's deep things in that. Now, if you knew you were gonna die the worst imaginable death, a death that's so terrible that you can't even even God can't bear it. It's so bad. Wouldn't you spend your whole life if you knew now you were gonna die that the worst death that you could imagine? Wouldn't you not constantly fear it? That's the danger. Jesus doesn't do that. What he does is he's he's this incredibly kind of peaceful man who can fall asleep in the middle of a storm and has time to play with kids, and he's not a gloomy, melancholic person. He's not obsessed about himself, he's always got time for other people, and he's like that until the day on which he must face this. And it's almost as if he does the Last Supper thing, the you know, Da Vinci painting and all that sort of thing, made famous by Da Vinci. No, not made famous by Da Vinci, made famous by the Bible. Um, and then it's as if as soon as that meal ends and he clicks into the net the the day on which he must now face this thing, the worst thing he could imagine. Now he kind of becomes bothered, and and and the famous Gethsemane scene, and he's really torn about it until he hands the whole situation over and just faces it and goes through it. But it's as if until then he doesn't he doesn't allow it to govern him, he prepares himself for it amazing ways, reading the scriptures, the way he lives, the way he thinks. He's all preparation for that thing. But it's as if he will not carry the weight of that until the day that he has to. That is what he's talking about, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And entrusting every day to his father. Um supremely, he is the son with the father, and he shows us what it looks like to entrust uh all our cares to him. Joe, how how would how would you go about balancing that? Um, take no thought for tomorrow. Um does that mean, you know, never never plan for for next Thursday? What does it mean?
SPEAKER_00No, but I think there's real wisdom to this question because um one of the things that anxiety can do, depending on what kind of type of person you are, is uh cause us to totally avoid or procrastinate doing things. So if you like, anxiety can both make us obsessed and try to work out tomorrow, but it can also make us sort of irresponsible in not in not planning and preparing because we're too fearful of it. So um I think I think it is a wisdom issue. And I wonder whether we almost know instinctively whether we are planning and preparing wisely or whether we are doing so because we are fearful and anxious and feel like the world rests on our shoulders.
SPEAKER_03There's a different energy to it.
SPEAKER_00There's a different energy, and you know what? If you're not sure, then then ask someone for I mean, pray I would say pray about it, um, and also like talk it over with someone and and work out actually how would be a a good way to respond to this and what things should I be doing now, and actually what things are kind of too much, um, and kind of tipping into being obsessive.
SPEAKER_03So Right, right. There was that old show. Does anybody remember Gillian McKeith? Um, she she had this show called You Are What You Eat. And um one of her tactics for trying to get people to eat less was he she would she would show them like a table that's just piled full of all the food that they would that they would eat in a in a week or a month or something like that. And of course, when you see everything that somebody eats, you know, even if they have you know just a a tiny little diet, um, that's that's too much. And of course, everyone faced with this massive table that's just laden with with all the you know fatty foods and and and everything that you would eat in a month, they go, Oh my goodness, I need to change my ways. This is ridiculous. But of course, what that completely rules out is no, you just you're just given today your daily bread. And actually, when we talk about there's too much on my plate, there's too much on my plate, um, that that's got a deep resonance with us because we we know that actually life is meant to be portioned out to us in bite-sized chunks, and and not, you know, we're we're not meant to go to go to the banqueting table and take on the world and yeah, and do all our duties for the next month now. It's you give me today my daily bread, um, because it's from my father's hand that I can receive these things, and he'll give me the strength for for today and tomorrow.
SPEAKER_02Um and I think it's interesting you said that, Glenn, because the you I remember who could you mention Hitchens, wasn't there that thing on the uh a London bus that was about uh the prison god, yeah, yeah, stop stop worrying and stop worrying, is it? And so in their minds, and that's that whole logic, what God what God does is make life stressful because the idea is God is on your case, and he's like trying to watch you to make sure you don't do anything wrong. So in their mind, the logic is God is stressful, whereas um in the Bible it's exactly the opposite, as you've been saying, and there's that amazing Psalm 53, which is really analyzing um an atheist, it's saying it's well, it's not very complimentary about an atheist right from the beginning, actually, but uh it thinks it's a pretty foolish thing. But one of the interesting things is it says if you do that, and that basically if you if the weight is of the weight of the world's on you, you will dread things when there's nothing to dread. Yeah, and I found that really helpful over the years to think, no, like when you when you know the wise thing, that there is this living God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who who do this unbelievably costly work to lift the burden off you and to tell you constantly, you don't need to worry, honestly. We've got it, we've got you, we can help you. Just come, let it go, honestly. Learn from us, trust us, that sort of thing. This this trinity's like that. And it was just that totally different logic of there is no god, you don't need to stress, and yet that actually leads to dreading things that aren't there, yeah, like that.
SPEAKER_03Yes, because without a god above us, we we kind of fill the vacuum, and now all of a sudden I'm I am the potentate in charge of the heavens and the earth. Yes, it's sound like stress to me.
SPEAKER_00And and our and our whole um culture, and we ourselves we love to be self-sufficient and think that we are in control and we can do this, that, and the other. And yet the Lord knows that we're human and that we we you know we can't even give ourselves our next breath. We're dependent for that. And um, there's a real joy and freedom in uh in being able to acknowledge, oh, do you know what I can't I can't do all the work that I meant to do today, I can't uh finish this, I I can't control that, and actually just coming to God and saying, you know me, you know my limits, and you are God and I am not, you know, enough for today and help me for tomorrow.
SPEAKER_03There's a great um there's a great speech by David Foster Wallace, who is uh an author in the States and an atheist, but he he gave this commencement address to graduating students who are about to be, you know, thrust out into the world. And um he he said the the secret to life is that everybody worships. Um whether you worship the big JC or Allah or the force, everybody, or if if you just have the domestic gods of sex, money, and power and that sort of thing, everybody's everybody worships, everybody has like some kind of god and they dance to the tune of that particular god. But if you make that god anything other than the real gods, um you you end up dancing to a drumbeat that is only anxiety producing. Um, you know, if you if you go for looks, then you will die a thousand deaths as you age. You know, if if you go for uh if you go for intelligence, then as soon as there's a smarter person in the room, you'll feel like a total fraud. It'll be uh utter hell. And he he gives this great phrase, he he says, um um if if you don't worship the the actual god, um you end up enslaved in a skull-sized kingdom. Um and it's just this idea of you you're a skull-sized kingdom, and just think of the anxieties rattling around in there. Um we've had this great uh comment or question really. Uh it's coming on Zoom. Uh to what extent should we empathize with people's anxieties when listening to our friends rather than point them to Jesus? So the question is um, do we uh empathize with people's anxieties or do we point them to Jesus? What would you say, Paul?
SPEAKER_02Uh well I I think it's good to do both of those things. I don't think it's like either just go, oh, or no, Jesus. Why can't we go? Why can't we do a bit of that? No, as well as then saying, no, I get you. And uh because Jesus himself is really good at that, sort of right, where people come to him with whatever agenda they've got, and he kind of listens to them and he gets them and he knows where they're coming from, and then quite disarmingly and quite unnervingly, he sort of goes, ah, so this is what you feel. So I just think it's really important to sort of recognize we're human beings, we're all anxious. It's not as if any of us are like, I'm immune from anxiety. How can you be so unbelieving? Or something that isn't the truth. We're all like daily challenged by this, and I have to do my daily mind management because I know how easily I can become like that. So I think it's really important to be super sympathetic, empathetic, and allow a person to talk it out a bit. Because in that process of talking out, they will, like Joe was saying, you will discover a lot about why what's really going on with them and ask them questions like, why are you so anxious about that? What is it about that that's so say that did happen? So what? And then they'll say, Well, oh, because and then you'll often get to the thing itself. But in that process, then you can, like you've said, say, but listen, like the thing that you're frightened of, there's Only one person who's ever beaten, say death. There's only one person who's done that. Or there's only one person who really does know what the future holds and has promised to stick with you through it all. So it's that way of transitioning from the empathy to processing, and then saying, Well, listen, this is why the real the only really rational, safe thing that, or the rock, there's that tremendous image of Jesus all the way through the scriptures. Moses particularly loves it. Jesus is the rock, this sense of a safe place to get onto, a hide-in, and all that sense of that. You you you you want to end there because otherwise you're short, you're short-changing the person. But I think it's good to start by genuinely listening.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and the the simplest story Jesus told about that is the story of the wise man built his house upon the rock. And the foolish man built his house upon the sand. The storm comes. The storms always come. There's there's no getting around the storms, there's there's no umbrella that will stop the rain from falling on you. The storms come, and of course, the the house that's built on sand falls with a great crash. Um, and what's interesting about that to me is that you therefore, um, when the storm hits, you can do two things. You can point to the sinking sand and you can point to the rock. And I I wonder whether that's that's part of the answer to this. That you know, we do point to the sinking sand and say, Yeah, I build on sand all the time, and I I get anxious too. But let me let me show you what I've found in Jesus. Um, he is someone who can weather the storm. Joe, how how would you tackle this question?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I will I again I love this question, partly because it just shows real care and wanting to be there for um other people, which uh is something that um I encourage us all to be doing at this time, particularly. Um I I agree with everything that's been said, and also I suppose to recognise our own personal tendency. So some of us will be more likely to be the ones who kind of listen and sympathize but never actually offer truth. Um, and some of us will be people who are far much more likely to offer truth, but not the kind of love that that goes with it and the sympathy. And we're told to hold those two intention in the Bible to speak truth and love to one another. So I suppose just a challenge for us all is to have a think, okay, my relationships, what what is my tendency and what might I need to maybe do a little bit more of? It might be more of the empathizing for some of us, it might be more of the truth speaking for others.
SPEAKER_03While we've got you, Joe, um someone has uh asked a question. Um, could you share with us some of the practical techniques that you would recommend to your clients?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'd love to. Um, so um, well, one of the one of the basic things is that anxiety is so linked to our physical body. We are embodied souls as people, um, and our mind and our body are linked, um, and particularly with anxiety because it's so physically felt. You know, we have tension, we have tense shoulders, we have shallow breathing, we have increased heart rate, we have knots in our stomach. So I think one of the really basic things is to recognize how we're made by God and to look after our physical well-being. Now that means um sleeping well, like get your sleep in order if if you're not, you know, getting up and going to bed at good times um and having kind of good sleep hygiene. It means exercising well. Um, it means uh eating well, um, it means kind of noticing, I think, the the world around us and appreciating that, um, and letting those things remind you of who's in control. So I I think a physical well-being, um, something that I often do with clients, and indeed I do it with our family, is just the importance of thankfulness or gratitude. There's been tons of research to show the benefits of um gratitude for our mental well-being. Um, you know, as Christians, we would want to direct that gratitude to God um as a source of all good things. Um, is it Psalm 103 that starts, Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits. So make a daily habit of listing 10 things that you are thankful for. Like write them up, you know, on the wall on a piece of paper, put them on your window with a chalk pen or note them down on your phone or wherever, and then add to that list every day the 10 more things. Um, and there's something about recognizing the things that you have been given the good things that helps you to realize, oh, you know, why am I so worried that I won't be provided for tomorrow or the next day? So that um I'd also say relationships, relationships are so important. Spend time with people who you love and who you care about, and not just have opportunities for them to listen to you, but also listen to them. There's something so valuable about us pouring ourselves into other people's struggles and being there for others that lifts us out of our own world. Um, and uh, you know, in in that Matthew 6 passage, it uh when Jesus talks about anxiety, that we've referenced it ends with seek first his kingdom. And there's a I think wonderful wisdom in actually being proactive and seeking something positive that honors the Lord, that that is a demonstration of our love for him and our love for others that alleviates anxiety. I could go on, but I think that's probably enough for now.
SPEAKER_03That's that's really good. And and Paul, we'll go we'll go to your kind of uh coping strategies as well in a second. Um, but but before before we get your sort of top tips for a kind of a daily um mind management regime, uh we've had a great uh great question on Facebook. Um uh they say, I'm loving the discussion. As an agnostic, don't you think we created the idea of a creator to alleviate our anxiety? So the fear comes first, and then we invent a god to help us deal with uh those stresses and worries. What would you say to that, Paul?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I it's um it's almost like the opposite of the London bus, because the London Bus one is saying uh creating the idea of a god makes us anxious. So let's get rid of it, and then we won't be anxious. Whereas, so that's why it's a little bit difficult from an agnostic. Well, either God makes you anxious or God is created to take it away. So I I feel like I don't know, I just don't really particularly care about inventing the idea of a god for either purpose, either to make people stressed so I can control them, as the Marxist would say. Uh, you know, oh, you've only invented a god so you can keep poor people in their place and make them stressed or something, or promise them pie in the sky when they die. Or so I'm like, I just let's just forget that. Let's uh the only reason I believe in God is not for kind of philosophical reasons or sociological or psychological reasons, all of that stuff. I I personally think the atheists are often quite right when they argue against that stuff. I'm like, yeah, good point. It is probably just projection and that sort of thing. Actually, it's the apostle Peter says, uh, I we believe in God because of Jesus. Because people talk about all these gods, pie in the sky, whatever. But as far as I'm aware, there's only one God shown up. And there's this guy called Jesus in the middle of history who walked around, fed all the hungry people, answered all the questions, raised the dead, controlled the weather, walked on water, told everybody exactly what was going to happen to him when he died, and it did happen, and then there were like earthquakes, and then he brought himself back from the dead and then ascended up to the center of the universe to control it all. To me, that kind of looks like God. So I'm not especially bothered about psychological benefits or harm. You know, I say believing in God makes you anxious. No, it's designed to take away that. I'm not interested in the psychological pros and cons in that sense. I'm just saying, here he is. What are we gonna do about it?
SPEAKER_03I often say, um, you know, I I I'm not that attracted to the notion that there might be some kind of a deity. Like, like that doesn't do anything for me. Um I'm a bit like the the woman who's always grown up and never believed in the institution of marriage, just thought it's a horrible idea. Marriage is just terrible. She doesn't believe in the institution of marriage, uh, but then she grows up and and maybe she meets a guy and maybe she falls in love and maybe maybe she even gets married. Why does she get married? Um, does she now believe in marriage? Not so much. She believes in him and he has converted her. And I think that Jesus is the guy, right? Jesus is the one who, like, whichever concept of God, maybe maybe he's like this toothless grandfather in the sky who would just soothe you and give you word as originals until you like for forever. Or maybe he's Thor, you know, with a hammer, ready to, you know, it's it's it's hammer time. Um like I I don't care about the concept of deity, but what about this guy, Jesus? Is he a God you can believe in? Is he a God you can trust through the storm? And I think when you when you see the storm that he sailed through and came out the other side for you, you think, okay, okay, here's a God who can be trusted. Um Paul, I I I was gonna come to you as well with um we've we've got about five minutes left. Um I think we we should um we should draw stumps at at 9 p.m., which is a great cricketing analogy for those who don't know cricket. If you don't know cricket, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, for you. Um you need to you need to, you know, this is this is the beginning of your problems. You you you don't think um but so we we will we will draw things to a close at uh at nine. But um Paul, what what do you do in terms of daily mind management?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I've been on this journey with Jesus and listening to his wisdom throughout the scriptures and take um because I'm particularly foolish, it takes me time to get it, but I have just learned the importance of how to wake up in the morning and what are the first thoughts that I give myself or allow myself, my thoughts, my desires, what do I do with that? And I just learned that I have to, I have to take control of the focus of my thoughts. And I start with that old book of common prayer. I I thought I'd got one on my desk. I haven't. The old book of common prayer with a morning prayer, where you sort of, you know, you pray the Lord's Prayer, you read a few psalms, you focus on the, you know, the living God at the height of everything, the Father, Son, and Spirit. And it's maybe 15 minutes of that sort of thing. And then I like to journal as well. I get through a lot of these where I I I love what Joe was saying about gratitude, and that's the sort of thing I'll do. And sometimes it might just be one page, sometimes it's 10 pages I'll fill. Thinking about life, gratitude, taking some of these scriptures, and usually there's something that has hit me that I need to think about, and I process that, or it's my anxieties, and I get them down on paper so I can see them, think about what's going on here, pray about it, things like that. So uh the morning prayer sort of thing, I also do evening prayer. We do that at St. Crispin's our church, it's part of our daily pattern. Uh, the journaling, and there's great resources you can get on journaling that helps with that. Um and uh the final thing is church, the church is just being part of because again, when people say, What's this church thing? I can't be bothered with church, and I'm saying, Well, what church is is learning how to be human from the one guy who's really figured it out, and that's what church is, it's a family of people who are incredibly diverse from every kind of background, national, social, economic, all that's what's amazing about even a little church is an incredibly diverse group of people, and you get together to share life, and then as as um Joe was saying, it's as you do that and share your anxieties and say, Oh, listen, I'm really anxious about the future. This is what I'm doing, and then the wisdom of that church family can say, Well, hang on, what are you doing that for? That's just that's just ridiculous. That's not what you should do, and then just opening life, sharing, carrying each other's sorrows, things like that. So those are the three things like your personal quiet time, the ability to um write it out and journal. Get like, because there's this great verse, Proverbs 4.23. I don't know if we can use that one. It's a lovely verse that says, Guard your heart. And listen, whether you're a Christian or not, just listen to this wisdom. Proverbs, it's a book, it's sort of in the middle of your Bible, if you can dig it out. Proverbs 4.23. Guard your heart above everything else, guard your heart. Because everything about you and everything you do flows from that. You have got to attend to your heart, the inner you. Everything else is just window dressing until you find out who are you really? What really it makes you tick? What are you about? What were you designed for? Why do you think and feel the way you do? Everything flows from your answers to those questions.
SPEAKER_03Terrific. And Paul, is it true that you've got some uh journaling for anxiety kind of prompts that um that people could kind of benefit from?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we can yeah, that would be great. Journaling for anxiety, yes, I do have that. So we can um maybe should we send those out or something? Yeah, we can make that happen after this session. I'll make it happen.
SPEAKER_03If you're inside the Zoom chat, uh let us know your email addresses. If you're watching this on Facebook or on YouTube later, um leave a message there and we'll we'll get in touch with you and uh we'll give you um perhaps a PDF of Paul's journaling for anxiety prompts, and then you can take part in this kind of daily mind management for yourself. Um guys, I've really enjoyed uh this hour. Have you enjoyed this hour? Uh it I think it's been terrific fun. Um so, guys, uh, thank you so much uh for joining us. If you're here uh on the Zoom chat, uh we can uh keep talking for an another few minutes if you like, and uh uh on Facebook the stream is about to finish. I think uh I will figure out how to do that. But um Joe Jackson, thank you for joining us.
SPEAKER_00Pleasure. I'll see you on Wednesday.
SPEAKER_03See you on Wednesday, and Paul Blackham, thank you as well for your wisdom.
SPEAKER_02Hey, thank you.
SPEAKER_03Brilliant, and we'll see you all again on Wednesday. Thank you so much. God bless. Thank you so much for joining us on the Speak Life podcast. Do give us a rating and review if you can. And uh, if you're on social media, you can keep up with us at Speak Life UK. That's our address, Speak Life UK, on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram. We are Speak Life Media on YouTube. You will find everything you need on speaklife.org.uk. But thank you so much for joining us. Tune in next time. Bye bye.