Hello and welcome to the Speak Life Podcast. My name is Glenn Scrivener. On today's show, we will talk about what everyone is talking about. You know, Dominic Cummings, Boris Johnson, that Durham trip, the media, and the tidal wave of splenetic rage engulfing the UK. You might not be from the UK, but I think the principles we discuss in this splenetic rage tsunami might help you in your own context, because perhaps in your own country things get a little heated culturally and politically. Does that ever happen? Well, stay tuned for the 10 standards, which everyone in the West acknowledges, whatever side they take on the culture wars. We are actually united by certain expectations that we share even across the deepest cultural divides. These expectations are thoroughly biblical and totally bonkers. Bonkers that is apart from Jesus Christ. He is the one who can come good on all our expectations. He is the one who can heal our divided nations and divided hearts. He is our one hope in moving forwards. So today what we'll do is play you three different bits of content coming out of Speak Life this week. And you say to yourself, three bits of content? That's crazy. Well, actually, there's more that we've done this week, but you're missing out if you don't subscribe to our emails. You do subscribe to our emails, don't you? Well, sign up right now, even as you listen. Uh just go right now to speaklife.org.uk slash sign up. That is speaklife.org.uk slash sign up. Sign up is all one word, no hyphens. Uh you can multitask, can't you? Can't you even multitask? I'm sure you can. Go and sign up now, unless you're driving. In which case, uh eyes forward for your essential lockdown journey only, obviously. Uh well, the first cab off the rank today uh in the podcast, uh, we'll play you uh a video that we put out at the start of the week. You can watch it by going to our YouTube channel. We are youtube.com slash speakrifemedia. The second piece is an article I wrote for the news website, Premier Christianity. We'll put links to the text in the show notes, and then finally you'll hear a conversation that I had with two other evangelists, Phil Duncalf and Daniel Roger, on the Critical Witness channel on YouTube. Search for Critical Witness on YouTube and give the guys a subscribe because they will reward you with excellent content. But first, let's listen to our first engagement with the issue, a video entitled Equality, Integrity, Humility, and Dominic Cummings. Passions are running high. The whole country wants to hear that little word.
SPEAKER_00Oh sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. There he said it. There he said it. Say it again, Dominic. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.
SPEAKER_01Actually, that apology was for getting the order of journalists wrong during the press conference. The media do not have their apology or their resignation, and this story will run and run. The story for those who've been blissfully unaware of the splenetic rage fest engulfing the UK right now is of Dominic Cummings, the Prime Minister's chief aide, having driven from London to his parents' property in Durham during the height of the lockdown because he and his wife had suspected COVID-19, and they were concerned about childcare for their four-year-old son. Has he broken the rules? The spirit of them, if not the letter of them? Now, where do we get the idea about the spirit and the letter of the law? We might return to that issue. But everyone wants to know: is it one rule for the powerful and another for the rest of us? Is this hypocrisy, duplicity, and elitism and of a kind that could cost lives? I'm not going to tell you the answer. I am going to tell you where the questions come from and why this huge division in our society points to a towering commonality that could unite us, and it needs to unite us, and fast. Let me begin with a psychological perspective. Can we please acknowledge that as we consider lockdown, the good of the society, and the actions of an individual, people bring different assumptions and different mindsets. Let's start with some more minor ones. Some people are into fine details. They are sensing people, which is great. You need that. And some people are into the big picture. They are intuitive, which is great. You need that too. In society, some people create the new innovation that no one had dreamt possible, but then other people need to come along and actually raise the finance and run the business and make sure the show stays on the road. You need the dreamer and the doer. Some people want more rules and more clarity on those rules, and some people want broader principles and are happy with less clarity. That's life, and you need both. Some people are risk averse, some people are risk neutral, some people are even risk lovers. That's huge. Because risky behavior is dangerous, it could be catastrophic. But also risk aversion to the point of paralysis is dangerous, it could be catastrophic. It's actually vital to have both types of people in your society and for them to listen to each other and not demonize each other. Some people are temperamentally rule breakers, and that's bad. And some people are temperamentally rule makers, and that can also be bad. Some people are the kind to sneak out and break lockdown, and some are the kind to report them. Many, many people have broken lockdown in various ways, and when that's pointed out, they feel resentful. And many, many people have locked themselves down more than they needed to, and when it's pointed out, they feel like mugs. I'm just talking about human psychology. This shouldn't be controversial. People are wired these ways, and they do react these ways. These reactions are powerful and visceral, and we've barely considered them before we've hit send on the latest tweet. We bring certain mindsets to these issues that were forged by brain chemistry and family and education and culture and class. But even though we have these different mindsets, one thing unites us. Everyone thinks they're right. Or they think they have the perfect balance of orderly and disorderly thinking. Me and my tribe has perfectly optimized the risk-reward trade-off, right? Our psychological differences are supercharged by a tribalism that exalts our preferences into something moral and existential. My tribe good, your tribe bad. As moral psychologist Jonathan Height says, we all have righteous minds. We can't help but think in these moral and, let's face it, religious categories. Our thinking is driven by pre-critical assumptions that are not the outcome of sober reflection. Our rational aspect is like the rider of a six-ton elephant. The elephant is our intuitions. These intuitions powerfully take us in certain directions, and those directions will be different for different people. Some are into care and fairness, some are into loyalty and sanctity. We need to be attuned to those differences, and instead of shouting at the riders, we need to understand and address the elephants. This is not to give a free pass to all bad behavior. It's not like, oh, I can't be mad at him. Bless him, I blame the elephant. No, we can still call out errors and injustice and cast a vision for the good life, but we need to recognize that before we make our righteous pronouncements, before we get up on our high elephants, we need to know that our elephant has been setting the course for our discussion all along. Our intuitions are running things, not our logic. So what are some of these intuitions? Let me name three that have been key recently. Equality, integrity, and humility. Firstly, equality. No one is above the law. Not the powerful, not the elites, not the Prime Minister's aid. We are all one. Integrity. The hypocrisy of our leaders is appalling. It cannot be one rule for Dominic Cummings and another rule for the rest. Our leaders must practice what they preach. And thirdly, humility. When our leaders make mistakes, they should apologize. If they are wrong, they should fall on their sword, as it were. Our leaders must not lord it over us, they are our servants. This is a powerful case against Dominic Cummings. But the defense goes something like this. He's just like you. He did what any father would do. Integrity. Indeed. So apply that standard to the media, pursuing him. At times they have literally fallen over themselves in an unholy scrum to accuse him of not social distancing.
SPEAKER_03If you're dying, you need to be happy. You're talking to door now, guys. You need to be back. You are talking about away.
SPEAKER_01That seems pretty hypocritical. Humility? Well, Cummings came out in front of the cameras in person and stammered his way through a question time. And during questions, he at least acknowledged, in theory, that there are things he's gotten wrong. We will await further elaboration on what those things might be. But Cummings at least acknowledges that saying sorry is a virtue that's worth espousing. Theoretically. Now what do you notice about these assumptions? None of them are obvious at all. Equality? Totally non-obvious. What is obvious about people is how very different we are. Where do we get the idea that we're meant to be equal? I mean, page one of the Bible. But if not from the Bible, where will we ground this intuition? That is pressing. We're tearing each other apart. Is there a good reason not to? Are we really equal? How so? Integrity? Why should I practice what I preach? I mean, except that a preacher said it 2,000 years ago and he's built the modern world. But most regimes have never bothered to mask their hypocrisy. Of course it's one rule for the elites and another for the plebs. Of course kings make the rules and the people live by them. Where do we get the idea that a ruler would put himself under the law to be judged by people, scrutinized, dissected on full display, and found virtuous? Where do we get that idea? The Bible. And what about humility? Rulers lord it over their people. That's what Jesus said, but then Jesus called himself a servant, a minister, and he fell on his sword, so to speak, in the most definitive way. He's the God who is humble, and now we expect rulers to serve, to apologize, to repent, even to fall on their sword. But where do we get that idea from? The Bible. And without the extraordinary foundations of the Bible, there's no proper grounding for our extraordinary expectations of equality, integrity, and humility. Oh, we have such expectations. Both sides have the expectations, but without a reason for those expectations that goes above the party political, we can only fracture. And it becomes a shouting match, and the hashtags battle it out between boofer boris and scum media. But let's step back. What are the mindsets that we bring to this? What are the unexamined intuitions, and is there any reason to believe in them? We seem to have a sense that something exists above and beyond our rulers. We hope so. We hope that far above Dominic Cummings and far above Boris Johnson and whoever your favorite politician is, there is equality, integrity, and even humility. This is our great hope. Not that one political faction wins. We're sick to the teeth of factions of division, hypocrisy, and pride. The only one who can really heal us is Jesus. So I hope you enjoyed that video uh that was released, I think it was on Tuesday this week. I did a bit more thinking after that video and then came up with not just those three intuitions that are guiding the conversation around Dominic Cummings, I came up with ten foundational truths that everyone agrees with, no matter what side of the divide they happen to be on. I posted these ten foundational truths on Facebook and uh Premier Christianity asked me if I turned them into an article for their website. So here is the ten agreements that are fracturing our nation. Whichever side of the Cummings Johnson Fiori you're on, can we all agree on the following ten propositions? Incredibly, I think we can. Coming up, I will list ten standards by which we are judging the matter. Some may be cited to implicate Cummings, some to defend him, some to indict the media, but all of them are appealed to by all sides at various points. We seem to have common ground on what ought to be our standards. Number one, you should not be wise in your own eyes. There is a law above. Number two, the spirit of the law is as important as the letter of the law, sometimes more so. Number three, there is complete equality. Whatever your station in life, we are one. Number four, hypocrisy is intolerable. Number five, self-justification is ugly. Number six, admitting your errors is a strength. Number seven, rulers are not above the law, they should put themselves under it. Number eight, leaders are servants, ministers, even. Number nine, no one should lord it over others. Number ten, self-sacrifice, even of an innocent victim, can be the very noblest act. At this point, you might think I'm a prosecutor in the case against Cummings. That's not my intention. For a start, some of these standards could be appealed to for his defense and or for an indictment of the media and the mob. The reason I list these ten is not because they are helpful to one side or the other. I choose them because of three factors. First, that they are generally agreed on. Second, that they are thoroughly biblical, right down to the phrases used. And third, that they are totally bonkers. I mean, really. Everyone, from kings to serfs, is equal? Leaders are servants? Owning your mistakes is a strength? That's nuts. In the Roman Empire, they went around saying strength and honor. I know this because I've seen Gladiator three times. But back then, pride was a virtue. Humility was a weakness. How on earth did we get the idea that lords should not lord it over people? I mean, that's kind of what lords do, isn't it? Well, there was this guy, and he insisted that he is the lord. And he told us this bonkers stuff, like the first shall be last. And then he lived it out, serving the scum of the earth, towel in hand. He was murdered with complicity from the mob, the moralists, and the mighty. But apparently this was the way, the way down was the way up. And on Easter Sunday, the last became first, and birthed a movement with an extraordinary upside-down vision of the good life. We are the heirs of this movement, whether knowingly or not, whether inside the church or not. And so here we are, two thousand years later, we're all standing on the Bible hurling verses at each other. We've just forgotten the references. On an unacknowledged level, we are united that the way of Jesus is both the standard and the way forward. But without wholesale embrace of the way of Jesus, we don't actually have the tools to transcend this division. Namely, we refuse to lay down our self-justification, to appear equally as sinners before heaven and earth and to receive the Lord's covering. No, instead, we take the law, resist the gospel, and continue with our secularized Bible bashing. Pray to God that we find another way.com. Now, our final item that we are going to share in this podcast is uh a conversation that I had with Phil Duncalf and Daniel Roger. It was a really wide-ranging conversation, taking in everything from atheism to the new age to apologetics to abortion to adoption and much, much more. It was uh a heck of a lot of fun. Check it out in its entirety on their channel, Critical Witness, on YouTube. We'll link to it in the show notes, and do give them a subscribe and click the notification bell so you'll hear of their new content. But here's me with Phil and Daniel, and they're asking me, how do you engage with the culture theologically and not just get caught up with the culture war?
SPEAKER_03What kind of things have you done to recognize what's happening in culture and just pull out the bits of truth that can point people to Jesus?
SPEAKER_01Because I don't start with culture, you know, like I my goal is not to s to think, oh, what's going on in the cultural zeitgeist? And how can I then build a bridge from that into my you know trite little understanding of the gospel, which is so often what kind of happens. People go like, what's popular these days? Oh, fidget spinners. Um, I I know uh they're like the Trinity. You know, which happens a lot, or people, you know, like people talk about the latest fad, whatever it is, you know, Tamagotchi or Pokemon Go or Face app or let's you know, and people think I I know I need I need to start with a culture and and come in. I I I really don't think that's the way. I I do think you start with um hopefully a profound view of Jesus and in Jesus, his vision of God, his vision of the world, his vision of the human person. And and from that, I think that gives you the lenses to then look at what's going on in the culture. Um, I hope that's what's going on because you know, when I think if you have a rich anthropology, doctrine of man, what are what are we like? And if you like Tim Keller, for instance, and you and you think the prodigal god is um a really helpful paradigm, well, Tim Keller will will point out to you that there are two ways of being a sinner. There is the younger brother way of transgression, and there is the elder brother way of self-righteous pride, and both of those are a problem, and Jesus is something else, and he's not he's not the transgressor, and he's not the proud rule keeper, he's something else. Okay, you've got that paradigm, that's a that's a rich theological understanding grounded in Jesus, you've got those lenses on. Now you look at the Dominic Cummings thing, and you've got someone who may have transgressed, if not the letter of the law, at least the spirit of the law. And you're like, Well, where'd you get that phrase from? Um that's totally biblical. Okay, but okay, you've got Cummings let's say he did transgress the law, then you've got a whole bunch of other people who have kept the law, and they they are saying we feel like we've been made mugs. You know, that Richard Osman tweeted that out, and if you search on Twitter for um he's made mugs of us all, like just countless tweets, countless tweets. Lots of people are feeling um foolish and stupid and ashamed that they had made such sacrifices when this rule breaker had, you know, toe-faced liar that had gotten away with that. And you and you look again at the culture through those lenses, and you and I think you see riches that you don't ordinarily see, either if you look at it through through a purely secular lens, or if you just look at it through a conservative, you know, religious lens. The conservative religious lens just comes out like the bishops came out and said there are rules, and God gave us rules and he broke the rules. Um, like, yeah, well that's that's one that's one part of the analysis. But there's also an entire nation that is invested in keeping the rules to the degree that if you don't keep the rules, you die. We are so, so existentially like invested in rule keeping. And what what's fascinating is I look at the the studies and almost almost exactly the same proportion of people are on either end of these things. 28% of people um admit to breaking lockdown um regulations. It's probably much higher, but 28% will admit to that. 28%, exact same number, 28% say that even if the government meets all five of its targets, they don't want lockdown to be eased. Um there are you know, so at one end of the things, there are there are people who are breaking the laws. At the other end of the things, so many of the people I know have locked themselves down more than the rules say they should. Like I I live in Eastbourne and you know, thankfully I I can walk to the beach and that's fantastic. But I almost on a daily basis, I meet people from other parts of Eastbourne, and they're sheepish about being at the beach because they drove to get to the beach. And almost universally they they think they've been naughty um in doing that. They don't realize that of course you can drive to the beach, you can drive to the beach, you can drive a few miles to to to get somewhere nice to what of course you can do that. That's totally allowed, but that is news to so many people. I I think it's not just that there are dirty, filthy lockdown breakers out there. Um there is a huge there are millions and millions of people who have locked themselves down more than they had needed to. Well, that's interesting. And if you're psychologically invested in that and you've made sacrifices, well, that's interesting. Can we can we think theologically and biblically about people who continually make sacrifices, make sacrifice, make sacrifices for the sake of the nation, for the sake of the nation, for the sake of the nation, and and then it might turn out you know that that wasn't the main thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's it's interesting, it's interesting. I I I put that out there. Um and so, you know, so you start to think, you start to think about a doctrine of man, and and you start to think about a theology, an anthropology, and a and a and a theology. And you know, just on Twitter today, I kind of came up with there, you know, there are 10 things that our culture assumes. Whether you think Dominic Cummings is Satan himself, or whether you think he's a dad who did the best he could, um, here are 10 things that every everybody already believes. We all we already believe, number one, you shouldn't be wise in your own eyes, that there is a law above us. We all believe that there is a spirit as well as a letter of the law. We all believe that there is complete equality, whatever your race or station in life, that we are all one. Uh we all believe that hypocrisy is intolerable. We all believe that self-justification is ugly. We all believe that admitting your errors is a strength. We all believe that rulers are not above the law, they should put themselves under it. We all believe that leaders are servants, ministers, even. We all believe that no one should lord it over others, and we all believe that self-sacrifice, even falling on your sword, even falling on your sword if you were innocent, that that could be the very noblest thing to do. We all believe those things, even though most of those things are nuts. Yeah, most of those things are totally non-obvious. And you know, if you read a Tom Holland for long enough, you'll you'll see, you know, not only the way he characterizes the Greco-Roman world or the Persian world or the Muslim world, in which all those 10 things would be, well, most of those 10 things would be pretty much nuts. And then you come to Tom Holland's book Dominion, and you see actually Christianity is why we believe all 10 of those things. So we're all basically assuming, we're all standing on the Bible, hurling verses at each other, we've just forgotten the references. Um we're all incredibly Christian about it, you know, and and we it's just a whole bunch of secularized Bible bashing that's going on, you know, in the culture.
SPEAKER_04So what um I know we mentioned this uh before um during the day, but um how does it's kind of almost a toxic conversation, even amongst uh Christians. I don't know. It's sort of posting on Facebook about it yesterday and just sort of inquiring about what I meant to think about Dominic Cummings, because I was still I was still a bit uncertain after some of the things I read last week turned out not to be true. Um I was just trying to figure out what I meant to think. And um I still find myself very it's very hard. I find it very hard to get worked up about it in in the way that I know a number of other people feel feel very, very strongly about it. But um it'd be interesting if you just sort of explore a bit about um I don't know the the absence of forgiveness. Um like I know um I I was clicking through uh I've read it, but it just reminded me uh earlier to about Douglas Murray's book, The Madness of Crowds. Have you read that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, it's hilarious. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's it's an excellent book. And he has Hilarious and scary at the same time. Yeah, yeah. He has a a section, I think one of the titles is uh of the chapters is on forgiveness. So the whole chapter is about um you know the ways in which I think he uses um Nietzsche as an example, kind of saying that Nietzsche kind of foresaw that that we would have the remnants of of Christian theology about this need for forgiveness and redemption. And once you removed the legitimacy of the Christian account, you were left with the remnants of guilt and shame. But there was no there was no there was no um there was no way to get out of that cycle. Yeah, there's no there was no means in culture for you to escape that cycle of guilt and shame. And it very much feels like you know, this is the the kind of if if he was writing his book in a month, you know, a few months' time, he would be using this example as an example of how you know you know as a scapegoat. There's so many biblical kind of themes you can get out of this, like Dominic Cummings as the scapegoat for our you know, for our anger and you know at the coronavirus and the the government and lot, you know, all these sorts of things. Yeah, and and and it does for me, it feels very much like he's I'm not saying he hasn't done anything wrong, but I'm saying that my understanding is some of the the the um the toxicity and and that the anger and the hatred is uh over the top. Totally. Um and and and the absence of any notion of forgiveness and and and redemption just screams out to me. Um and um yeah, but interesting thoughts.
SPEAKER_01The flip side, the flip side, the absence of you know, repentance or any kind of intrusion from Dominic. Um and you might and you know the the comeback to that for those who are on Dominic Cummings' side would would say, Well, you never apologize to the mob. Never apologize to the mob. That that seems to be um the the the sort of conservative wisdom that that people have. And I just I I would just question that. Yeah, I it's it's hard not to think of the media encamped around him as a mob, and a a particularly deranged mob that is very clearly breaking social distancing in order to accuse him of breaking social distancing, yeah. And the appalling hypocrisy of that is on show. What did Dominic Cummings do? What did he not do? Um, did he have a full tank of petrol? Did he fill up here? Did he fill up there? Um there is you know room for disagreement on on all of that. There is no room for disagreement on how hypocritical the media have been. No room for disagreement on that.
SPEAKER_03Well, apparently it's their job, it's essential because you've got to get that competitive, you've got to get that competitive photo, haven't you? Um if they if they don't. I know that was a response I I've got. I just didn't know how to respond to that.
SPEAKER_01Well, then you know, in the in the rose, in the rose garden, you know, he had one journalist after another. Why didn't they just you know commission one photographer to take one photo? How many how many you know people do you need? If if we're looking down the entire jobs, we're looking down the entire country. We can't figure out one photographer to take one picture and license it. Um, so you know, um, there's wrong, there's lots of wrongdoing on on every side. It would be so fantastic to hear Dominic Cummings say sorry. Yes, I would agree. Oh, would you be amazing? And and you know, wouldn't it be amazing if he was sacked? Like, and and wouldn't it be amazing even if he hadn't done anything wrong? And okay, we can let him be Jesus for a bit. Okay, so he's fallen on his sword and the mob got its way. But maybe God can, you know, raise up a truth teller and do good out of it. I, you know, maybe maybe you know, you know, the whole you never ask, no, you never apologize to the mob thing. Maybe that's maybe that's right, but what did Jesus do to the to the mob? And there was a stillness and there was a silence that allowed the mob to reveal its own evil in a self-destructive way. And the you know, even if Dominic Cummings did everything right on the way up to Durham and back, um, there are definitely better ways um he could have um handled that. And yeah, so but it it is so difficult. It is so difficult to have um conversations about about any of this. There are but what I do think is that um whereas many people, the majority of people will have a knee-jerk reaction to this and just default to type, because we we all we all do have types, you know. Some are I'm incredibly risk-averse, I'll just do really risky things, and so lockdown for me, I'm yeah, whatever, you know. Um, and I shouldn't be like that. And that's that's no excuse. But I'm I'm always going to default to if a friend told me I I drove up to Durham to self-isolate with my family because you know there was the availability of childcare, I'd be like, yeah. Um, and that's just temperamentally how I'm wired. And there would be temperamentally, you know, people who would hear that and they would be outraged, you know. And then you add into it who Dominic Cummings is and what this represents, and you you get everything else. But to ignore um psychology is is silly. Um and there will be there'll be the majority of people who you can't have a normal conversation with on these things. Unfortunately, that is the case. But for for some people, um I think they are sensing that more is going on than meets the eye, and that um the issues that are involved are are far beyond rational explanation. And your one or two friends who you can talk to, I think are really pricking up and starting to ask the deep questions. So, yes, it's it's very difficult with the majority, but again, it's you know, the guy with the mic does not speak from the room. Yeah, yeah, turn to your neighbor, they've just lost their granddad.
SPEAKER_04The thing about the mob, I think you know, not not apologizing to the mob works as a general rule, uh, but it's not an exceptionless one because I think sometimes the mob's right. Right. Um, right, and I and I think that's the danger of having a rule like that. Because I've hear that I've I've you know read relatively widely across sort of political spectrum, it's quite a sort of right-wing conservative thing to say, you know, never apologize to the mob. But that that that's it's very simplistic as I said. Sometimes the mob's right to not uh and and sometimes the right thing to do is to apologize. Um and um yeah, it's it's just but they've just buckled down on it.
SPEAKER_03I know I I stopped watching the briefing after about five ten maybe ten minutes, partly because of the horn that was going on behind it. Did anyone else get that there's someone in mind and I just couldn't concentrate what he was actually saying? That was one thing that stopped me from watching it, but it was just so mundane thing ever. It was like a trial, but a really boring boredom scene. I was like, what am I just on to? This is the most ridiculous thing. I drove up to Durham, I then went to a castle, we sat in a park for five minutes, we didn't come into contact with anyone.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03What is this? When it could have been five minutes. I did this because I cared for my child. I clearly made an error.
SPEAKER_01Huh. Ah, ah of judgment. See, that that yeah, that was yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03That would have helped something that you're clearly offended by, and that's my error of judgment. I apologize that you're upset. Yeah, I went against some guidelines that I I knew better than you because he he wrote them, and I thought I was following the guidelines to the best of my ability, but I apologize that others have made greater sacrifices, and it doesn't have to be like a falling on your sword, there's ways of apologizing. And I'm sure script writers would write and a better apology than than me, but just to sit in a garden and go, I went to a castle and didn't touch anyone, and it's bizarre, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And if he had said that, I I think then the next the next line would be, and I am offering my resignation to Boris Johnson, and it's and the ball's in his court. Yeah, yeah. Does does he think that I did anything wrong? And he is as the prime minister of the nation. Um because it does seem it's I don't know. Um him yeah, him keeping him on, it's it's either an incredibly um uh it's an incredible amount of integrity. You can like if it is indeed true that Dominic Cummings did nothing wrong, you could think that it's it's an incredible amount of integrity from from Boris Johnson to not give in to the mob and and and and to stand for truth. Like if it is indeed the case that Dominic Cummings did nothing wrong, then Boris Johnson is is has far more integrity than the majority of you know those who are polled by the Daily Mail today, um, who are all saying that he should resign and all that kind of stuff. Um but it's so much of it comes down to what does Dominic Cummings represent? Because as you say, you know, Phil, it's a really dull story until it's Dominic Cummings. Okay, so who is Dominic Cummings? Okay, he's one of the elites. That will take you in a certain direction, or he's Mr. Brexit. That'll take you in another direction, or he's a guy who's been dreadful to the media in the past, and he has. Um, that'll take you in another direction. Or he's a father doing the best for his family. That'll take you in another direction.
SPEAKER_03It could be that one because he's elite and no elite loves their children. So oh wait, did I just that's another kind of words?
SPEAKER_01So you can find Phil and Dan on their YouTube channel, Critical Witness. So do subscribe to that channel, give that video a share, give our own Dominic Cummings video a share, give this podcast a share. Why not? Uh sharing is caring. And uh and hey, have you signed up to our emails yet? Uh go on, we won't spend. But we would love to keep you up to date with so much that's going on at Speak Life. You can go to speaklife.org.uk slash sign up. Sign up is all one word, and on that site there are links to everything, including how to give towards our ministry. And we are so grateful to those who have given and are giving to Speak Life. It means so so much to us. We rely on the generosity of you guys, and we are grateful to God for you. Well, that'll do for this week. Uh, hopefully next week, Paul Feasy is back. That's right, Paul Feasy is back. I can't wait to have him alongside. It should be a great one. Until then, God bless, and bye bye.