Are we live? Let us trust that we are indeed live. My name is Glenn Scrivener from Speak Life, and it's so uh so good to have you uh with uh us today. Uh tonight it's our great privilege to have Justin Briley, the host of the unbelievable show on Premier Christian Radio.
SPEAKER_00Justin, thank you so much for joining us. It's my absolute pleasure and privilege, Glenn, because I've I've had you on plenty of times over the last few years, and it's high time I returned the favor. So thanks for having me on.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's high time that you were put in the hot seat and uh that you were put on the spot and asked the questions. Uh, for too long, have you been neutral? Although you've you've come out really in the last couple of years, haven't you? With your with your book.
SPEAKER_00Yes, true, true. Yeah. Um, I I though I have to say, um, whatever grilling you give me, I doubt it's going to be quite the grilling that you've had on my show from people like Matt Dillahunty and others. But yes, yes, the the the the book the book was kind of me nailing my colours to the proverbial mast. Um, I mean, I don't think it's any secret that I am a Christian, obviously, on the show, but I have had people in the past who have said, I listened to a few episodes and I wasn't quite sure where you stood until you finally said something that made me realize you're a Christian. So I mean the fact we broadcast on premier Christian radio should be the giveaway, but but yeah, there you go.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. And it's a sort of fine line that you tread, really, that um you are a neutral in one sense, um, but you're you're also not averse to, for instance, in the Matt Dillahunty discussion, you know, you were the one who brought up Hitler, as I recall. You you were the one who invoked Godwin's law.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Do you and stirred the pot. I I I I I think I was thinking, okay, we've got 20 minutes probably left in this. We need we need to bring in the big guns. Um, and no, I mean, actually, it it there's sometimes, and the the the point is, this is the the thing that most often gets me into the argument myself. It's when the moral argument comes up. Because for me, uh, well, for those who aren't familiar with it, it's it's it's a way of unlooking at morality, whether things are really true, right, wrong, and so on. And I've always found it a very powerful argument for a deepest intuition that there are some things, there are some ways the world should be, and some ways the world shouldn't be. So I I I I always find, you know, where when I get to that argument, and that's where we were at that point in the debate. I feel like, hmm, I feel like we need to get to the heart of this. And somehow going to Hitler is just a really easy way of getting to the heart of this. So um, but no, I I I I I thought it did actually help to clarify.
SPEAKER_01It did. It really well, it stirred the pot. Yes. And then you're you had this great line where you said, um, but aren't people's lives, don't people's lives mean something, even if they don't create a cure for cancer or great works of art? And this was in the context of a conversation about um, let's say that there is a Hitler figure who wants to eliminate all the disabled because your economy could fly if only you would get rid of these uh useless people. Um and you, you the way you phrased it was just so beautiful. And you and you said, you know, you know, what if they don't contribute to society at all? To which Matt responded, Well, they've got to contribute value. Um, they don't have value, they've got to contribute value. And it was a great reminder to me that I I had some wonderful moments in that dialogue, but none of them were when I was speaking. It was all your question. And then Matt just let that thing come out of his head, and there it was. Um, indelibly.
SPEAKER_00No, it it was. I I mean, I'm I'm glad that you felt that that my contribution was was helpful in that way. Um, I mean, in all honesty, I I try in general to to to sort of try and sort of poke in both directions. And so, so you know, if you listen to other debates or indeed other parts of that debate, you'll you'll hear me kind of putting the question back to you or or kind of trying to, you know. So I uh so I I I but there as I say, that's my weakest spot is is I I find sometimes when I see someone who does believe, as Matt does, you know, that morality is essentially subjective. Um, I know he thinks there's an objective way of looking at it, but I think it ultimately collapses into a you can objectively measure it, but there's no objective foundation. Then who on earth says what that measure is or whatever. Yeah. But anyway, so and I always feel like if someone hasn't got really answered the question, I I just want to sort of go in there and say, look, no, here's the problem, and I I want to hear a uh, you know, a good answer to this. Because I've never found one, if I'm honest. That's it's always been, as I say, one of the questions that um I think is hardest for atheists to answer because I think deep down they don't want to say life is just subjective, purely, you know. Um and and at the same time, I've heard lots of people trying to, as Matt does, you know, come up with semi-objective ways of of thinking about morality. But but they all they all seem to just, I don't know, they all seem to qu fall through your fingers when you finally get to the point of saying, Well, you know, was the guy who mugged you in the street or did far worse things, you know, um Paul Potts, the Hitlers, the Stalins, you know, was it just they were just acting according to the way they thought life is best lived? And no one ultimately wants to say that, do they really? Um, and and that's that's the thing. Um, and so so I I I I yeah, that was just one moment in that debate where uh where I think I think you, especially Glenn, in that debate pressed Matt harder than I've seen him pressed by many people, if I'm honest. Um Matt is a consummate debater and not someone to be taken lightly, even when he's just stepped off a plane from the US with very little sleep, which was probably worked in your favor, let's be fair. Yeah, a little bit. But um, but at the same time, um, he he you know, he knows his stuff. He's been in that kind of arena countless times. And um, but I thought you did an amazing job actually at just graciously, but sometimes provocatively pushing back and um and having a really interesting conversation. So it's uh it's no surprise to me that that has been the most popular video we've put on well in about two years, actually. I think you're you're just below um bless him, um Jordan Peterson. Jordan Peterson of Blessed Memory. Jordan Jordan Peterson, uh Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's Jordan Peterson then daylight, then Glenn Scrivener. Um and I and the I don't know what the comment count is up to on our little video, but it was it was 13,000 or something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I haven't looked recently to be honest. But the um yeah, I mean obviously a lot of Dillahunty fans came out, and and and I like I'm really glad about that, frankly. Because um I'm you know at the end of the day, if we're only preaching to our own crowd, you know, it's fairly pointless. And um uh and uh inevitably, I mean it you can it can be dispiriting reading the comments because inevitably have you noticed that it's always just my guy one, no, my guy won. And that the it can feel sometimes like the slightly more nuanced comments are a bit far few and far between. But um, I tend to I think you just have to accept that there's also a silent majority for whom there's gonna be a lot of people who are gonna be thinking, hmm, yeah, that Australian guy, he made one or two, not too awful points, actually. Yeah, um, who might just be slightly moved out of their, you know, their their typical sort of oh, Christianity is just for fairy tales and you know, whatever. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think I I learnt that when I was engaging with Islam at Speaker's Corner. So many years I would go down with Jay Smith and and the whole team. And um, it was very interesting. As you're as you're dealing with perhaps the Imam in front of you, really the people you're aiming at is the the the coterie of of hangers on who have never seen their Imam contradicted. Um and and even if their their faith is shaken in in the great leader, um, you're doing a kind of a service. So, you know, so when you uh when you messaged me and said, Do you want to take on Matt Dillahunty? I think part of the reason why I I gulped and said, Yeah, okay, okay, was that I knew that we'd get that audience. We'd yeah, you know, we would we would hear him and we would hear him not on the atheist experience. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think that makes a big difference as well. And um, and and frankly, you know, the overall tone, I mean it had its dramatic moments, but actually, I thought Matt Bat was was was quite um moderate and um willing to hear and respond and so on. And uh, and I think that was partly being uh, you know, in someone else's studio on this occasion and uh maybe maybe just trying to be polite among all the the the British folk that were around him. Um but the but um I I uh yeah, I I genuinely think actually um maybe as well, he has just mellowed a bit, you know, over the years. I think he actually said that on the show, actually.
SPEAKER_01It's been a tough year for him, and my heart does go out to him. I I think he very publicly on his 50th birthday, his parents sent him a message that that certainly rubbed him up the wrong way and caused great, you know, friction within the family. He was divorced this year. I think he's he's had a he's had a rough year, and my heart goes out to him and I pray for him.
SPEAKER_00And and it was coming us right on the heels of all that drama as well, that we referenced briefly uh in his own organization, um, where lots of people were yeah resigning over you know the splits they've had over transgender issues and all of that stuff. Um so so I yeah, I I I get the feeling he's he's uh taken a bit of flack and heat. Um so yeah, so the rest of us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, totally. And um just the morning, the the morning of the dialogue. I I was in Eastbourne speaking, and this is not what all of Eastbourne is like, this is but this is playing up totally to the caricature. I I spoke to um 150 older women whose average age was probably in the early 70s. Um, and after I spoke, they sort of said, Is there anything we can pray for you for? And I said, Well, I've got this thing later on. I'm gonna be speaking to Matt Dillahunty. And this woman said, We must pray. Sisters, we must pray. And she stood, and then someone else stood, and then someone else, and like there were like five people standing. And then she said, Will you all commit? What time is the taping? Will you all commit to praying? And at that moment, I thought to myself, Matt Dillahunty does not have a prayer. In every sense of that word, Matt Delahunty does not have a prayer. So I love it. Yeah, notch it notch it up to the uh the the elderly of Eastboard, but um brilliant. I I think that that kind of um unbelievable um has gone along with a whole bunch of others quite recently. Um I'm I'm thinking of um I'm thinking of Tom Holland um versus AC Grayling on the big conversation, um, which was just just glorious to watch when AC Grayling says, just name one thing that Christianity has uniquely contributed to the world. And I counted afterwards Tom Holland rattled off seven in 60 seconds. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I I mean it was just like it was as if AC Graining was saying, here's an open goal. Please make you up. I just thought, well, as soon as that that sentence came out of his mouth, I thought, oh, this is gonna be such a good clip. I just that was that was the thought that went through my head. I've got to confess.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, and it was, and it was, and and and what a you know, and and Tom Holland himself, um, he was going to be at the Unbelievable conference.
SPEAKER_00Um in yes, yes, yes, he would be. It would have been bizarrely this coming Saturday, um, which is kind of like weird because I have, you know, normally I would be knee deep in conference preparation. Obviously, that's not happening this year, but um yeah planning planning hoping uh that we can do something next year with with Tom of a similar nature and hoping to get him back on the show anyway before too long, because he's such an interesting guy.
SPEAKER_01But and is he happy to engage in that sort of thing? Because I mean Tom Wright was going to be there as well, and Tom Holland.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, oh yeah, no, and the Tom Tom Holland was very much looking forward to being part of the conference, and um especially because we were gonna get him and and Tom sort of again to to sit down on stage and and have a chat and that kind of thing. And uh and um I don't know, I mean it's something of an open secret now that um Tom Tom Holland has been, you know, I think very warm towards Christianity. Um I I saw him on the uh the HTB Good Friday service. Uh they were broadcasting and interviewing him about, you know, crucifixion and that kind of thing. He's uh I don't know if you've read his latest article in the in the telegraph, actually. Um and and uh I think um I think Tom sees himself Tom Holland sees himself very much as an ally of Christianity and of the um what he sees as as the need for something to push back against, a sort of certain form of uh secularism that is simply opening the door to actually all kinds of other ideologies that are potentially very dangerous. I think he he would he would see them as. But obviously he's approached that as a historian with the book, saying, Well, let's look at what actually Christianity's done for us. And you've of course had some excellent interviews with him yourself on that front, but but um yeah, um I think I think I'm looking forward to seeing how the Tom Holland story sort of develops as as we go forward. And um uh I I just think he's just obviously he's fantastically intelligent, fantastically interesting as well. Um, and uh yeah, I I've del I've just been delighted to see the way that that show as well with AC Grayling has really interested and inspired and captured people's attention. Um it was it was it was funny, you know. The the the backstory to that was um you're all wanted Tom Holland to come on about this new book to the big conversation. And he was saying, yeah, happy to do it, but you know, let's see who we can persuade on. But gonna gonna confess here, my first person I tried for opposite him was not AC Grayling, it was the big man, Dawkins himself, who of course around the same time had released his own book, you may remember. Yes, yes, the uh uh outgrowing god, sort of the god delusion for teenagers. And um and despite much toing and froing with his publisher, um, and I thought we were nearly there at times, he eventually turned down the opportunity.
SPEAKER_01Oh, you should have had an empty chair instead. I've done that before.
SPEAKER_00That's that's that's old. It's been done. It's been done. Too many Dawkins empty chairs. Um uh so which was a shame. Um, but I was very glad um when I when I sent out some feelers again that AC Grayling was was willing to do it. And uh in a way, uh a very very good matchup because because his own book, again, fairly recently released, was sort of basically the complete antithesis of Tom's um his history of um philosophy is essentially begins by saying, Well, Christianity certainly didn't do anything for us, did it? Um you know, if anything, it it destroyed most of our greatest works of literature and so on. So um when I when I sent it over to Tom Holland, I I'd got the PDF and I said, Look, I'm not expecting you to read all of this because I was I was literally only sending the book to him about a week before we were gonna record. I said, but just read the introduction. And I got a an email back with lots of capital letters in it, and um and I knew we were gonna have a good time as soon as I saw that response email. So yeah, and so it proved.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's he is on such an interesting journey, and I and I guess part of his part of his argument um is is basically saying, even the problems that we have with Christianity has been given to us by Christianity, it's the water in which we swim, it is inescapable. I wonder, even as you were talking about the moral argument with Matt Dillahunty, is there an interesting interplay with the Tom Holland thing? In that might Tom Holland go in the direction of saying, um, well, yes, it is obvious that we should protect the weak and not eliminate the minorities, but that is not because of some platonic ideal of an ethical virtue. It's just we've soaked in the Jesus story for for long enough. And so, and so it is arbitrary that we happen to um honor the victim rather than the victor. Um, it's it's it it just speaks to our Christian heritage, it doesn't speak to the truth of an objective morality that is founded on love for the weak.
SPEAKER_00I I you would have to ask Tom in all honesty, um, and and I'm sure he'd be happy to answer, to be honest. But um, I've only ever heard, in a sense, Tom very much speak on the historical side and essentially say, look, I'm not trying to make an argument for God here. I'm not trying to make an argument for what is right and what is wrong. All I'm saying is the things we do believe in the West are right and wrong are clearly a product of our Judeo-Christian heritage. So he's only ever claimed, certainly in the book, to be making that kind of an argument.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um now, as to personally, whether he thinks actually, and it just so happens the Judeo-Christian story is the best story going, and the closest thing to, as I can make out, reality may well be that he does believe that and has come to appreciate that more. Who knows? Uh, I suspect he sees that more as a philosophical, theological kind of ground that he would then be treading into. And I think he's he's wary to tread too heavily into those areas, understandably, he doesn't see that as his his forte necessarily. But um, but again, it it would be interesting to see see if if uh it does go in that direction. Um as as far as I can see, you know, I I think maybe tacitly, Tom does ultimately see that there is a way in which life appears to be best lived, and uh and and quite possibly, again, I don't want to speak for him, but that he does see the Judeo-Christian way as as somehow speaking very strongly into that. I mean, you get the sense certainly when you do read something like Dominion and when he just speaks of his own personal experiences, um, especially that that very personal uh section towards the end of Dominion, where he talks about uh seeing his um I forget now, was it his um uh godmother, yes, um uh in her last moments. And and I think you get a very powerful sense that this becomes more than just a historical or intellectual argument. There's something quite powerfully uh deep and personally moving for Tom in seeing people who uh find strength in in the story of a God who made himself weak. And and that somehow speaks obviously, you know, I I think it has been speaking very powerfully to him over the last several years. Yeah, so um, yeah, so so as you say, uh again, uh Tom Tom, I'm sure would would answer himself on that front. I'm sure he would have had a whole bunch of these sorts of questions thrown about at the conference as well, had had we been having it, but there may be an opportunity in the future.
SPEAKER_01It would be like the Dave Rubin uh episode of Unbelievable, where everyone's like, Well, you can vote now.
SPEAKER_00Why not why not now letting you out the door till you've signed these nine articles of faith? Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, and and so there's another name, Dave Rubin. Um, so you went uh across to the States and you and you did an unbelievable conference there, and uh yeah, his his conversation, he's been on a journey and he is so very open uh to certainly was in that conversation.
SPEAKER_00I mean, remarkable. I mean, again, uh the those so many highlights in that big conversation series. Um, but that again was just so different to all the other conversations because uh there was, I mean, most of the others have had at least some element of being somewhat combative. Um this one was not, it was John Lennox, Dave Rubin just basically having a great chin wag and frankly agreeing on an awful lot. Um, and it in and John Lennox seeing basically, you know, well, just how far can we take this conversation? And the audience is absolutely lapping it up because um, you know, I I think again, he's an interesting character. Right, you know, there are overlaps with the Tom Holland story in as much as um uh Dave Rubin has obviously gone through quite a change in his outlook um culturally, politically, socially, um, uh, to going from obviously very left-leaning to much more kind of right-leaning, not not in every area, but but certainly um, and and I think that has sparked, you know, at least in recent years, as far as I could tell from his conversation, quite a change in his thinking towards religion as well. Um, and that was the first time, really, that he'd really laid his cards on the table in quite a public forum on that on stage discussion to say, look, I don't think of myself as an atheist anymore, that's for sure. Um, and the only thing I could find when searching, you know, doing preparation for that, was basically videos of himself basically saying, Yeah, I think I agree with the Sam Harrises and so on. Um, but yeah, then you get the sense, and especially of course, through the Jordan Peterson relationship he's had, that he's he's definitely shifted an awful lot on all of that. And then finally it felt like that was his kind of you know, final declaration that okay, I'm no longer that, not sure I am now, um, but I'm open to talking it through and and you know, your suggestions. So that was, yeah, really intriguing conversation.
SPEAKER_01And then another name to throw into the mix is Douglas Murray, um, who had a a great conversation with Esther O'Reilly um back in January, I guess it was. Um, and he's been on a journey, sort of raised Anglican, kind of moved away from that in his twenties. Um, but I don't know, where do you where do you feel like interesting, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Because as he said, you know, again on the program, um, he uses this this title of Being a Christian atheist. Um, and um he's he's evidently, I think even more so in recent years, has come rather in the Tom Holland type way, come to appreciate how much Christianity has given us in terms of our values and so on. And also, I think very drawn to to the aesthetic as well. Um, you I just saw an article published by him in the Spectator over Easter where he said, Well, as a non-Christian, here's my 10 favorite Easter uh pieces of art and music, you know, he he loves, I think he's very drawn aesthetically to to the to the the the emotive center, if you like, of Christianity. He just hasn't, I think he just has some big intellectual sort of uh issues. And um, and I think that was what was nice about the the conversation with Esther was they weren't just talking around intellectual issues. Esther is a a great lover of poetry and art and literature, and and they they really I think connected at various points in their conversation on on those issues. And I think very often that is you know that so often I find for many people it it's that bit of who they are that Christianity seems to speak most strongly to. Um and and uh and that seems to be the case with him. Um I I what was fascinating was that again, doing some research on him ahead of the show to to read some of his um early stuff. We we were actually, I think, at Oxford at the same time. He was evidently far, far intellectually superior to to you or I, Glenn, because everyone he had published a book before he left as an undergraduate. Um he wrote it when he was 17. Yeah, I know. It's like and he got it published and reviews, you know, and and he tells his story of um crossing the quad uh at whatever college he was at, and his master coming out and saying, You're you've been reviewed by Hitchens, you've been reviewed by Hitchchens, and and he's been is there this glowing review from Christopher Hitchens in I don't know, um uh Vanity Fair or something of his book. And this is like still an undergraduate, and it's sick, you know. But but that led, interestingly, you know, I just learned this for the first time when when looking it up, that that he had this great friendship with Christopher Hitchens and um you know, and and you know, into those early years of the new atheist movement, and they spent many a time talking about that, but evidently was able to have a very close and fun, engaging friendship with him, but I don't think ever shared his utter disdain for Christianity or its effects, and um and and if he ever did, it certainly seems to have shed a lot of that now, perhaps. So that was just fascinating as well, to see someone who was so, if you like, absolutely, you know, uh hand in glove with some of those leading figures of the new atheism in terms of just the social circles he moved in. But yet I can't think of anyone uh as a non-Christian who is more different as well from them. Yeah, and it goes to show you can't you didn't necessarily judge people by the company they sometimes keep. They they some you know people just like interesting people just like to hang out with interesting people, I think. And and he is just another of those super interesting people, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but you've you've mentioned Hitchens, you've mentioned Dawkins. Um, but it feels to me like today is uh is a different time to the time of the the four horsemen of the atheist apocalypse. Um where where do you see where do you see atheism or atheisms um in the sort of public conversation? And where do you see Christianity in the public conversation at the moment?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I as a I I've said this in on a few in a few other places as well, but I do think the conversation has moved on a lot. And you still find your enclaves of new atheist sort of rhetoric online and everywhere else. But um, but in the public sphere, I think um it's a bit passe now. And uh frankly, you don't see uh the same kind of rapturous reception that Dawkins and Soham got, you know, at conferences and things anymore. Um because and that's partly because that atheist movement, that new atheist movement, kind of started to eat itself when they all started to fall out with each other about well, now we've all agreed that God doesn't exist and is just a fairy tale. How are we actually going to go about living our lives? And some people thought it was it should be by everyone just being super skeptical and as free thinking and saying exactly what they wanted. And others thought, no, it means if you're an atheist, you have to be, you know, this type of feminist um person who does all this, blah, blah, blah. So lots of different people with different opinions. And suddenly, you know, there was a lot of infighting, and a lot of it is done very publicly in at conferences and blogs and things. And um, and and it struck me seeing all that, that A, um, that's for all of the for all for all of those who say it's it's we're we're certainly not religious. Well, it looks very religious when basically you get a lot of splits over what your doctrine is actually going to be. Um, that's so so that that was sort of, you know, and there was a guilty pleasure almost, I suppose, in in seeing that that uh that that those who are fairly fundamentalist in some respects are as religious as the rest of us. And then um, but also the sense that, you know, they had, you know, you can tear down the idea of God, but when you just leave the void open, people need something to fill it with. You can't just take away, you know, one of the greatest arcs, narrative arcs that people have lived their lives through and just expect it to be filled with this thing called science and reason. That's science and reason is great, but it turns out it doesn't give you meaning. Um and and I think there was somehow this assumption that it would. And um turns out, no, that people have been using science and reason for all sorts of different purposes over the years, um, and not we don't always agree with them. Um and uh and so then you have into that void, you know, A, the whole kind of identity politics thing, you know, suddenly, you know, blows up. And I think that was all aided by the social media sphere, you know, really coming alive in the last 10 years. And um, and and also um, you know, all these interesting characters like Douglas Murray and Jordan Peterson, and uh, you know, and and having these conversations with some of those, you know, of of that bent, Sam Harris and others, uh and and suddenly the conversation turning to, well, where are we going to get our meaning from now that we've you know chucked religion out? And uh and so that's where the show has turned, as you'll know, very often um in recent years. We've we've had those kinds of conversations. Um and it's yeah, I I I I've welcomed it. I think that um it it's it didn't take very long in in the big scheme of things for new atheism to suddenly feel quite old and stale, frankly. And for people to start saying, Okay, well, look, I'm not gonna call myself a Christian, but I'm not a new atheist. And actually, yeah, we do need something to live our lives for, don't we? And actually, maybe it turns out, even if I don't really believe it, there is something in this Christianity stuff, at least it gives people a purpose to live for, and it seems to have actually not just been a complete disaster for the world, it has done a few things. And and suddenly you get sort of people sort of starting to trickle back in the other direction, and then even, you know, um amazingly, people even coming to faith, bizarrely through people like Jordan Peterson and others. So it's been a sort of um, yeah, really interesting time uh to sort of chart that and see who these characters are and and where it may all go in the end. Uh, it doesn't mean that we can sort of announce any of these people as the the new messiah or that that this is some sort of you know next great revival or anything like that. But I I do see it just somehow as as just a great example of the way that um when you take something away, people don't simply stop believing in things, they they they realize there's something missing, and uh and and I think that's all been yeah, really exposed in an interesting way in that way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's coming back to that moral thing. There is a moral sphere, an existential sphere. There's there's something much larger that we need to live into. Uh, and you can't just say God's a fairy tale um without giving people that that meaning and that morality and that yeah, that sense of existential purpose. Um, so some people have called this the the meaning crisis. What do you think Christians need to do to be able to speak into this cultural question better? Um, because in some ways, I I don't think like we never deserve anything. It's all it's all of grace, it's all of God. But I I don't I don't feel like we deserve for the culture to take notice of us and to say, actually, the Christians they they have some interesting things to say on these issues. Because I don't think we have been saying very interesting things on these issues. What what what do we need to do as Christians to speak into this crisis?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it I think first of all, we we actually need to listen first sometimes. I think we're very quick to speak sometimes without actually listening. And um I think um it's it's very easy. I think the work the the problem sometimes with Christians, and I'm count myself among these, is is we're we're very quick to give all our solutions and basically try and lead people as soon as we can to you know some sort of three-step um salvation prayer. And and I think it's worth sometimes just playing the longer game in the way we engage with people. Um I think we've realized the value of seeing people who are not probably going to agree with us on everything, but where we see there's a value in in what they're saying, and and it's that thing of you know, if they're not against us, they're for us, sort of thing. That there's a sense in which I think we should um make friends where we can with people, even if we don't necessarily they don't necessarily share our faith. Um, but if we we see an ally, um let's nurture those friendships and relationships and and um you know focus on the things we can agree on to some extent. Um and that that's the way I'd see, you know, a Douglas Murray and and others. Um they're they're you know they're hardly signed up believers, but I think um they are seeing some of the same issues with the secular sort of version of of reality as as many Christians are seeing. And so we ought to to welcome that kind of conversation without sort of expecting them to immediately conform necessarily to to you know uh all the tenets of Christianity. Um and I think it's it's funny in a way, because sometimes I think we we treat those who aren't in the Christian camp very often with more grace than we treat some of the Christians who are in the camp and saying other things. So so it's it's a kind of curious thing, isn't it? Um, but I I I I would just I suppose yeah, love to see Christians engaging um yeah, in a more intellectually sort of um interesting way to sort of be willing to uh have those big sort of conversations, um hence the name of the series of um and and talking and and sort of just just uh uh yeah, be be open to to kind of uh engaging it at a bigger level. I think what I'm trying to say is uh apologetics has too often been sort of narrowed down to this sort of these specific questions where there's these specific ways of answering them. But most people aren't they don't work that way. Most people are a mixture of the intellectual questions, but also the artistic and the meaning and the um the things that kind of give make you know make sense of life. And and that's what I get with with with some of these conversations that have been been had. They're people aren't necessarily saying, can you show me five reasons why Jesus rose from the dead? They're they're saying, um, how do I make sense of the fact that when I hear, you know, um Bach, something happens inside me that I don't think just the synapses in my brain explain. Um, and that's that's sometimes harder for Christians to engage in because it's it's a it's a bit more abstract than the sort of historical question of whether Jesus rose from the dead. I think they're linked. I think ultimately there is always a way back to that empty tomb. But I wanna I want Christians to feel at ease to to talk about that, to talk about art, literature, poetry, and sort of engage in what historically has been our most powerful witness, you know, art, literature, poetry, the imagination. That's in all honesty where Christianity most comes to life. Um and uh and so for me it's it's trying to encourage Christians to to go out and and be bold in that sort of way. Um and uh and you might just find a lot more open doors that way to people than than by simply going for the kind of you know, here's here's five proofs for the existence of God sort of thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it reminds me of Francis Spufford in in um uh what was the name of his book? Uh Unapologetic. Unapologetic. Uh yeah, listening to Mozart's clarinet conchato was a massive moment for him. And then I, as you were speaking, I was thinking of um Matt Dillahunty's debate with Mike Winger online, did Jesus rise from the dead? And and Mike Winger, you know, brought a very basic, you know, five minimal facts of the resurrection. Here's Gary Habermass, let me walk you through it. And just no, no, says Matt Dillahunty, because the prior probability of someone rising from the dead is just ridiculous. And if you begin with the assumption that the universe is basically like billiard balls clacking into each other, um nope. I'm not gonna listen to your arguments for the empty tomb because the universe just isn't like that. You listen to Bach, you listen to Mozart's Klarinet and Shoto, and you start to think, ah, you know, music is a different realm. You know, so matter in mo if if matter in motion is just the thing that explains all reality, well, what about music? What about morals that you've spoken of? What about meaning that we're what about minds? You know, what all the other M's, you know, and before you even go to magic and miracles and all that kind of stuff, yeah. Um you you're starting to weave together a much richer tapestry of of of how reality really is.
SPEAKER_00I think I think music is the unexplored apologetic, actually, in all odds. Um, because I mean it's just is the universal, isn't it? The way it speaks to people and it gives these people, everyone, you know, has had a transcendent sort of experience with some form of music. And um and it's very and it's very hard, I find, for most um atheists to simply wave it away as you know, atoms and electrons and synapses. Um because I think most people realize that that's that's an explanation, it's a physical explanation, but it's not the explanation of what's going on when we engage in music. And I think there's yeah, there's no surprise that Christianity has you know gone on down the centuries on the back of singing and songs and music. And um, but it's it's a harder one because it's not the kind of it's not an argument that you can sort of just do three premises and a conclusion from. Um, and that's why probably it doesn't crop up as much on my show, for instance, as you know, I don't know, the Kalam cosmological argument or something like that. But that's I for me, I I've been thinking myself recently, I should do the the the less so the the more kind of slightly more nebulous things and find the right people to have those conversations because there's actually all kinds of people out there who are I'll probably uh I wouldn't describe themselves as a Christian, but probably would love to have a conversation about the way music makes them feel and the way it sort of speaks to their soul in some way. And and just in this lockdown, you know, you again it's just like half the time the the things people are sharing are songs, you know, that have some kind of hope or meaning for them through this crisis, you know. We just had this this Christian song that's gone viral, you know, the UK blessing. And um, and and again, it's just it's it's sort of it's something about the melody and the feeling and the energy in that song that that somehow gives people hope, isn't it? And it's very hard to encapsulate exactly what it is, but um, you'd find very few people saying, Oh, well, it is just atoms and electrons in your brain, actually.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's all or even the the like the biologic, the evolutionarily uh evolutionary biological explanation uh where you go back in history towards a tribalism where this is binding you somehow. Um, no, that's not my experience. My my experience is not that I'm descending back into my tribe tribal primeval past. My experience is that I'm being lifted up into this like aesthetic bliss and wonder. Um yeah, no, it's powerful. The argument from beauty. Um we've got a great question from Rich Pitt, um, who um asks the question what what questions are seekers truly asking right now? And I don't know whether he means right now, as in a COVID-19 inflected question, or just in 2020 more generally, but what questions are people actually asking?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a great question. Because I think sometimes the problem in apologetics is we answer questions we think people are asking, but they're not actually always the questions they they are asking. Um, and I think I think the questions people have been asking before COVID-19, but even perhaps more so now, are the meaning questions we've been talking about. And I think that's that's partly been brought on by the sort of the range of answers that are being given by people out there. So, again, referring to the sort of the identity politics movement and everything else, there's a lot of people who are basing their identity and their meaning in, you know, uh radically affirming some particular ideology um around race or gender or sexuality or whatever it might be. And um, and and so strongly are they sort of uh basing their entire identity in this that anyone who disagrees with them is is questioning their their very nature, you know, um their right to be, if you like. And and I think there's a lot of people who see that and see an almost religious fervor in in that, but who aren't quite convinced by it themselves. And so they've been led to think, well, what's what's going on there? And I mean, what what is life about if if it's not their version of reality? What's my version of reality? Who's and uh I mean the the most fascinating example of it for me, just before Christmas, I think it was around the time we were lining up the the Matt Dillahunty discussion, was when JK Rowling did that tweet where she basically said, Look, sleep with who you want, dress how you want, it's all good. But and it was responding to this particular case that the name of the woman, Maya, somebody for session, it was right, who had basically been um uh basically uh had appealed being uh uh uh fired because of um saying that she didn't believe a man could simply identify as a woman and uh in her role and and she'd lost this this uh uh employment tribunal. And um and essentially the tweet from Jaco Rowan says, dress how you want, think how you want, whatever. But when you force a woman out of work because she believes this, then something's gone wrong, kind of thing. I'm I'm slightly paraphrasing. And I stand with Maya, yeah. Um and I stand with Maya, and obviously she got absolutely you know set upon for that tweet. Um and then didn't tweet another thing for another, I don't know, six weeks or more. Um I can't remember how long now, but and but it made me realize um it's it I I think I can't have been the only person I don't think it was just Christians who were thinking something's weird's going on. And why what's what what's the is there a truth about this? Is uh did did did JK Rowling do the wrong thing there? And is there a and and I and I think it's what it all comes down to for me is is that we've sort of lost any sense of there being a kind of a a grounding of reality. It's kind of it's a grab bag now. Everyone's allowed their own truth, basically. They're there everyone's sort of or reaching out for something that can be their grounding, if you like. And um, and that was just one among many examples where I think it's leading people to ask, what's what's well, what is the meaning of all this? Is is there a way we're supposed to be? Is there a sort of you know, a kind of a way life should be lived? Um and um and I and I don't know in the end whether, you know, where that's going to lead, but I do think it's those are that feels like where people are asking at the moment their questions. And and coming into the coronavirus thing, um, again, it's for me, it's just sort of caused people in an even more cute way to ask what's this all about. Suddenly my life's been put on hold. Suddenly all the things that were giving my life meaning, a lot of them have been stripped away suddenly. Suddenly I'm having to spend a lot more time with myself and my closest friends and well closest family, not probably your closest friends necessarily. Depending on what your household is yeah um and and I think just forcing people to to stop and um ask themselves what what life is about again. And I it's been interesting. I've done a blog on the kind of where is God in coronavirus sort of thing. But actually I haven't seen mega lots of people asking that question. I haven't it hasn't been like the top of the list of things like how dare you God at it again. It's actually I've far more seen people going hmm yeah this is all making me think actually a lot deeper than that than I was thinking. That's been much more the the response I've been seeing in general.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And yeah so so I think I think that it you know there there's maybe it's bringing things to a head that were sort of bubbling away under the surface of people asking what's what's this all about um and I you know my belief is that there is an opportunity here. I'm not quite sure how it's all going to work out or pan out but I do believe obviously that that there is an answer to all of these questions. Christians haven't been very good at sharing that answer for quite a long time. But I do think we're moving into just a super interesting period where there's going to be a lot more opportunity to potentially show people how how Jesus sense of a lot of these questions that that they've been asking for a long time.
SPEAKER_01What do you what do you think? So let's can look back at um we can look back at 2020 and go, oh gosh I'm so glad we're through that how would you like us to be able to finish that sentence like what what would you hope that we as a church had learnt through lockdown, through the economic downturn, through losing so many people what what what do you hope the church would have learned I hope I I hope the church will learn that we we have to connect with individuals.
SPEAKER_00I think what a lot of what the lockdown is doing is kind of it's kind of stripped away all of our fancy gadgets and gizmos, you know, our sort of smoke machines and lovely lighting arrangements at church. We're basically all like you and I sitting in a room now talking to each other like this. With a tambourine over our shoulder and bongo drums. Yeah. And even the churches who who are still has do still have a few bells and whistles up their sleeves it doing it to an empty room it's not quite the same is it really and and and my hope is for for some churches maybe who maybe have just got a little bit too dependent on the big show and the kind of um the fancy packaging that it might help us remember actually most people are just like you and me sitting in on their sofa watching Netflix and laughing at goggle box or whatever. And actually we need to sort of be where they are in that way. And I think this has obviously forced a lot of churches to to do that to sort of start to speak into people's living rooms from their living room and and and that kind of thing. So I think there's a really good way in which that's sort of just forced us to to get a little bit more normal with people and and it's given us a a reason to sort of just have those sort of conversations. And I I hope I guess in the future that we don't I I feel like we we can't just go back to the way things are. I don't know if we'll be able to go back to exactly the way things were anyway if we wanted to but you know I I know just from our experience in our local church situation that uh we're connecting with so many more people. Now I'm not saying we're connecting you know in a way that matches what happens when you're doing it person to person in in a typical church setting but we are connecting with an awful lot more people people coming out the woodwork that we weren't imagining would be tuning into our church live streams and um asking interesting questions and asking for prayer and and all this sort of thing. And we know that whatever the church looks like when we get back, we're going to have changed some of our priorities pretty radically actually and and just a a way of engaging with people that I think will change somewhat because of this.
SPEAKER_01And and hoping that I suppose I mean it's hard to say isn't it I mean I remember Tim Keller saying that after 9-11 in New York especially there was sort of a sudden sort of opportunity in which everyone was sort of one you know asking what life was about the churches were suddenly full for several months and but then things kind of returned to normal you sort of get that sort of wave and and I don't know what this sort of pe a period will look like but my hope is that um we'll make we'll we'll do whatever we can while there's an opportunity but that the church won't just return to normal afterwards but but itself will actually be changed through this in a way that just puts makes the important things the main thing you know that that sort of really um just just gets us engaging with with individuals and people on a direct level um uh and and doesn't leave it to the superstar evangelists or the fancy techno wizardry but just everyone realizes right here in my front room chatting to someone I I can you know be you know giving some hope and giving some yeah some yeah yeah yeah as we're checking in on each other yeah what why why do we not do that more actually you know our family we're we're we're finally doing a kind of a a family zoom chat every week with my Australian family which we weren't doing before coronavirus absolutely the same here yeah yeah once a fortnight our family have been all getting together on Zoom and and it's kind of ironic highly ironic that during social distancing I've probably spoken to my family far more than I would normally yes um but again it is it's that thing of somehow everyone feels like you know it it feels like you you you've got to make more of the relationships when you can't be out and about and and seeing people and so it does somehow it seems to have um just uh concentrated that the intensity of some relationships that and again given me more opportunities to to have interesting conversations with people that I haven't had those kinds of conversations with for quite a long time. So yeah it's it's uh yeah interesting time intense time uh let's finish with some quick fire questions um uh had a few different uh questions from a few different uh social mediums uh media uh James Kerry asks um what do you have any tricks to get non-talky guests to talk uh well the the the the main thing is not to invite them on the show in the first place because if I'm being brutally honest yeah um you know uh I I remember once inviting someone on the show uh who was great on very good and then on in person it was like I was having to work so hard to get them to just talk about yeah and um and from then on I said it's not that I they someone has to be a brilliant communicator to come on my show but at the very least I'm gonna pick up the phone and just have a conversation with them and I'm probably gonna get a quick sense of whether they feel comfortable having conversations because that's pretty important if you're coming on a show that's basically themed on that.
SPEAKER_00So so that would be my uh but if if you're in the position where that is happening and uh you you um you you have to ask open-ended questions obviously um sometimes you know there are some people you you can ask the dullest question to and they will spout for 20 minutes on uh you know and other but for those who who are are you know maybe are just very sort of direct in some way and and sort of give you the facts and then they're done um you you just have to ask I think quite open-ended questions that that naturally kind of get them to talk a bit more widely um uh how so not just what do you think about this but how how does how does that make you feel what what are some of the things you've seen um happen when you know yeah yeah um so uh yeah uh and and find a way of of opening it up uh in whatever way you can would be my advice so and what about if there's the opposite problem how do you shut people up or how do you how do you control people if they're going off on one yeah this is you the more the usual problem actually than than the than the former um you um so there's a few little sort of uh broadcasting tricks um that I could I could mention we're being let in on the secrets here the magic circle hate Justin for saying this but the ideally if you're face to face with someone your visual cues are what people are picking up on most of the time and short of me literally having to break in on someone I will be wet wetting my lips and and and acting as though I'm I'm literally about to ask you something and that would just be giving them the visual cue now you need to stop talking okay or now now it's time to start winding it up um and um or or I'm sort of sort of gesturing towards the other person. Yeah and you're not saying anything but you're literally kind of saying yeah we're gonna pass it over now and um as that kind of thing helps I think which works with most people however yeah I mean another again doesn't always work but psychologically they say if you ask a short question people tend to respond with a shorter question. So if you've got a real talker don't give them a very waffly question because otherwise they'll probably give you a very waffly answer. Ask um just try and make your question as concise as possible and that helps them. And frankly you know I if I know I've got someone who I think is is going to be a talker I will just say you know before we start recording I'll say look we want to make sure we've got plenty of to and fro. So I'm gonna ask you guys to be as concise as you can and we'll we'll try and throw the baton across to each other as as often as possible and that kind of thing. And just help to moderate people's expectations. Sometimes we'll think oh it's an hour ahead of us you know I've gonna have all the time in the world and you then they take 20 minutes and they've taken a third of the show already. So yeah as I probably have just now with my answer.
SPEAKER_01Oh that's a perfect perfect perfect answer. And um and what do you ever have moments like I do look where sometimes you think I really hope they don't fall silent now because they have nothing to say at this point.
SPEAKER_00You don't have these brain fades where you think definitely conversation falls silent. Definitely happened. I mean most of the time you know when it's a great conversation it's like you can't get everything in that you want to get in. It's like there's not enough time in the show to to say all the things and all the questions that are popping off in your brain. But there are moments when I'm like I don't know what I'm gonna say next if if this is where if the other person doesn't say something. And um and that's probably where you'll hear me say a lot of ums and ahs and and and and what would um and that sort of thing where where suddenly until but what you've got what you've got to fall back on is you you are the most phenomenal summariser of what someone has just said. And yeah now usually though what's happening there is I can't think of what to say next. Right. I can't think of next question. So I'm summarizing what was just said in order to help me think what's the next logical thing to ask. So I often hear people say this oh it's really helpful the way you summarize someone's point and then pass it over. And honestly I don't think I'm doing it for any other time. Okay so you just said that so let's think what next is going to be the thing.
SPEAKER_01But I'm glad it it does help if it does help sometimes I remember a moment with the Matt Delahunty debate where it it gotten a little bit heated and then you said um you you came to Matt and you said so Glenn's just said this so what's your problem with that? Right, right and and Matt's just said this. So Glenn what's your problem with that?
SPEAKER_00And and you kind of interposed yourself in a in a quite uh calming way and and then you mentioned Hitler and it all went to you know it all went to yeah yeah well anyway I it's I mean I've got my style other people have their style um I mean sometimes I listen back to myself and I cringe and I think oh you really you know didn't didn't do that very well but um it feels like most of the time as long as it feels like a kind of conversation um that's the main thing and and the other thing that a any interviewer needs to know is when to not interrupt you know to to step back and just let the conversation happen because that's usually actually when a lot of the most interesting stuff happens is is when people just talking to each other rather than through you as the moderator. Do you have a favorite interviewer or interviewers that you sort of look to and try to copy well there's this guy Glenn Scrivener who just phenomenal honestly I can't say I really do. I'm I I I don't think of myself as a as a terribly you know well read or versed uh broadcaster in that sense um but you are you gotta you gotta own this Justin you've been you've been doing this for what 15 years you gotta you gotta own this you're yeah who who do I enjoy listening to um I I think there are some some very good interviewers out there you know that there are the the people who have been doing it for donkeys years you know the great talk show hosts who seem to manage to even within a relatively short space of time get something really interesting juicy and and fun out of their guests and and that's great. I think that's a real art actually being able to do that. I think um I mean I I I I the the the kinds of conversations I tend to listen to most um tend to be those slightly silly ones. I I I listen to a lot of the Phil Visher podcast I don't feel familiar that one yeah yeah um and I just think Phil's very funny but also actually make some good points along the way I wish I had that skill I'm not a comedian and um I love when I hear people who are really good at having really intelligent but funny conversations. I I you know I I quite like listening to um to a sort of a Ricky Gervaise or or um a uh I think he's just done something with um Russell Brand hasn't he listened because I know that's going to be super interesting I'll probably disagree with both of them of course but the the I I I can imagine that's going to be quite an interesting sparky discussion because of who they both are. Whereas I do find like the more you know the the Sam Harris type stuff it's interesting but it's quite a sort of sort of quite dry sort of you know it's all very calm sort of yes almost then at times with Sam Harris. And I tend to listen more just because I'm interested in the topic than because I think he's a great interviewer or anything like that. But um yeah so that's that's a little glimpse inside my my thoughts.
SPEAKER_01Very good two very quick last questions one if you weren't doing this what would Justin Briley be doing?
SPEAKER_00Oh well that is a good question. I um I I had aspirations to be an actor at one time um was into my arts and drama at university trod the boards a few times um and uh uh yeah I think when I was growing up I I had designed on being an actor when I grew up um but 'twas not to be um but um so but I think I'd be doing something you know if I wasn't doing this I'd be I'd be doing something in the sort of creative sort of sphere um whether it be broadcasting or TV or something along those lines um and uh and yeah uh that's that it I I again I I've always felt a uh a calling to do something that's fairly directly Christian in that sense. Um uh so so and the opportunity obviously with Unbelievable I I did three years of sort of started in radio for three years before I started Unbelievable and that was very much an introduction to radio journalism and interviewing and and all the of that stuff. But I think what I loved about when Unbelievable sort of came and and started to grow was that it actually did get outside the bounds of a typical Christian radio um and allowed me to broaden the horizons to talk to a lot of non-Christians and um so that's that's been good because I've I've I I really enjoy the fact that uh I can go a bit outside of that that bubble um yeah oh I mean you've you've you've carved a role for yourself that is just such a service uh to Christians and to the church and and that is very very you shaped and uh we're very blessed to have you. Justin looking ahead um what's what's on the horizon for for unbelievable for the show for you well um yeah I mean coronavirus allowing um there's um there's plans for another book uh haven't told anyone that yet so oh exclusive exclusive speak live podcast um yeah it's it's in here at the moment it's not on the any pages everyone's gonna be there Justin as you know that's that's the easy bit but but first steps have been made uh towards um uh yes hopefully writing a book and it being published at some point next year uh which would which will be great um and uh yeah we are uh hoping to have another season of the big conversation um it won't be in time for this year but we would hopefully um have that out uh in the first half of next year and um yeah so we're we're sort of very early stages really of of looking on you can you give us go on give us another exclusive is it can you can you reveal any any name any name at all? Oh I've got a lot of names I just don't know if any of them are going to come on the show yet um right so um I mean I I mean I will I will give away at least something of of where particularly I want to focus some of the topics in the next season. I think what we haven't managed to do and I've really wanted to do actually but not quite found the right guest to do it yet um is a couple of shows looking at AI um the consciousness on that kind of level um what the future's going to look like and and what does Christianity have to say to that because I just think that's a just a huge area that um is fascinating everyone at the moment you know all over our sci-fi movies and books and um and I just think it has all kinds of interesting implications for for what it is to be a human. And um so yeah I'm looking forward to opening up some of those topics the the key is you know finding guests as big as Glenn Scrivener to come on and talk about AI and see what we can manage.
SPEAKER_01You could just get Alexa on and she would do a better job than me. So that's yeah you you're sorted.
SPEAKER_00No no it it would it would be it it I mean put someone I'd love to have on and if anyone has any clue how to get hold of him because I've tried to no avail is um you will no Harari. I think he's the the man of the moment when it comes to AI and the future and that kind of thing. Fascinating intellectual an atheist um but uh so if anyone has any tips on how I could persuade him by hook or by crook okay to come on the big conversation I would be all ears for that.
SPEAKER_01All right all right people we we've we've been given the exclusive let's pay Justin back um give him some help with Uval um Justin thank you so much uh for joining us on the show and uh if people I'm sure people are all subscribed to the Unbelievable podcast and I'm sure they uh religiously get it on our Friday but uh if they don't um do yourself a favor and uh go across and subscribe immediately and uh you will get um you will feed your mind and feed your heart as you uh listen to Christianity as it's interacting with uh all sorts of other worldviews and uh you'll see some of the richness of Christ in his gospel uh as you see Justin probing both the Christian and the non Christian guests so uh I hope people do check that out if they don't already. Justin Briley thanks so much for joining us.
SPEAKER_00Absolute pleasure thank you very much Glenn now how do we end this thing?
SPEAKER_01This is the stop life