Hello and welcome to the Speak Life Podcast. My name is Glenn Scrivener. So glad you joined us for today's show. We've got Vaughan Roberts, the rector of St. Ebbs Church in Oxford, a leading light in conservative evangelical Anglicanism in the UK and around the world, a leading exponent of expository preaching. But today he's going to be talking to us about the topic that we ought to be addressing in our churches, the topic that is rarely addressed, that is the topic of abortion. But what about evangelism? You might be thinking, or what about expository preaching? How do we crowbar abortion into people's weekly diet of sermons? Or you might be thinking, how do we address this issue both prophetically to the culture but also pastorally, given that perhaps one in three of our congregation might have had an abortion or been involved with an abortion in the past? What about all those issues and many more? We will discuss them in just a minute. The interview was taken from part of a Brefos conference, uh, and do check out more from Brefos, that's B-R-E-P-H-O-S.org. They held a wonderful online conference on the 23rd of April, in which Warren Roberts was speaking and Laura Mann and uh many others addressing this issue of abortion and the church, and how it is that Christians, because of their Christ-centered gospel commitment, can lift up the cause of the unborn. Uh, do check out more from that conference. You can hear the entire two and a half hours, which was really edifying, really helpful. Uh, just go to brefos.org and uh find not only this interview, uh, but many other resources as well. In this podcast, we will have the interview between myself and Vaughan, who is launching his new book, uh, written together with Lizzie Ling, called Abortion, published by the Good Book Company. And then at the end of the podcast, we'll have a couple of questions that came to both Vaughan and I as uh we were answering questions on the day of the conference. Enough waggling on the tee. Let's drive off down the first fairway, and here is my interview with Vaughan Roberts.
SPEAKER_02Sure, hi Glenn. Um, my name's Vaughan. I'm uh the rector of St. Ebbs Church, it's an Anglican church right in the centre of Oxford. I've been here for many years, and uh I'm a preacher, teacher, and church minister. I've written a number of books. This is uh a book mainly written by my colleague Lizzie Ling, and uh I'm the co-author. I've done a number of books engaging with various topical issues, and I said right from the beginning of the series we need a book on abortion. I felt strongly it needed to be a woman that uh wrote it, and uh I've I've ended up co-authoring Lizzie, who's on my staff, a colleague of mine, she was uh a general practitioner GP for a number of years, so she has had a lot of experience pastorally and uh medically, and she speaks um theologically as well.
SPEAKER_01So you just say we need a book on abortion, and I guess that is because in the UK there just isn't really a book uh devoted to the topic of abortion written from a Christian point of view. Is that right? I can think of many from the US, but it it seems like hens teeth for a UK Christian to be addressing this issue. Am I getting the the the sense of that right?
SPEAKER_02I think there are some things out there, but they're largely hidden, and I can't think of very much at all. I mean for me, I first started engaging with the issue through John Stott's Issues Facing Christians Today, which came out when I was a very young Christian, and that impacted me very deeply. Since then, there's not been a lot, I think, from British uh evangelicalism anyway. The Catholics show us, uh put us to shame as evangelicals, but I I can't think of much from a British evangelical position that's engaged with it.
SPEAKER_01Why do you think that is the case? Why why is it because I I think generally there's a tacit pro-life position that UK evangelicals take, but in terms of being vocal about it, um the the the silence is deafening, wouldn't you say?
SPEAKER_02I would, there's some magnificent exceptions, and uh I honour the work that that uh some have been doing, but uh I think they would know themselves to be in a very big minority, and and that there's not much. I think the voice of British evangelicals hasn't been strong. Why? And one can only speculate. I think maybe sometimes people look across the Atlantic and think, oh, that that some of the engagement from American Evangelicals has been at least portrayed here as sometimes a bit single-issue, sometimes excessively shouting and aggressive. I think we only hear, of course, one aspect of that engagement. So people think we don't want to do that. I I think there is the element that some people thinking, well, yes, there's an important issue, but it's so sensitive. And male pastors in particular are very nervous of just going there because uh they feel they're not quite qualified, it's gonna come across all wrong. There's the concern from some we don't want to be deflected from the gospel. And uh yes, we hope someone will engage with it, but not me. So I think a whole variety of different reasons, but undoubtedly uh it's it's we haven't spoken about it as as as much as we should, as clear as we could, and I really hope that will change.
SPEAKER_01Let me talk to you about two contexts that you are in at the moment. Uh, one context is there you are in Oxford, uh, there you are ministering among students, and uh Oxford students can be incredibly left-leaning. Um, even even holding a debate on the topic of abortion can can feel almost impossible. And there have been instances of of things being shouted down and shut down and people being cancelled and no platformed and that sort of thing. Um so is there some part of your evangelistic heart that's that feels, oh, I don't want to nail my colours to the mast? Because it it it must be um it must be a difficult issue within Oxford um to raise. Missionally, um, how do you feel now nailing your colours to this mast and saying that you're against abortion?
SPEAKER_02I it's certainly you're right about the context. And just in the last few weeks, Oxford's been declared to be the most woke city in the UK. And um so uh to to uh to take our view on abortion is just not an acceptable position. And although the the world assumes there are those who take it, you're not allowed to state it, and certainly as a male, you're not allowed to state it. Um but is that something that's holding me back to to be honest? No, uh actually no. Um I I think we don't want to be just going on about this, but I do believe these life issues are front foot evangelistic issues because they they get to the to the heart of the big issue, which is what is a human being, and um I think we need to be going there evangelistically. Now, how we do it, of course, is very, very difficult, and we we will be presented as uh saying things in horrific ways that are misogynistic and uh and uncaring and so on. So we we certainly have to think carefully how do we do it, but I don't think this goes away from evangelism. I'm very strongly convinced that uh done in the right kind of way, this is an important part of our evangelism.
SPEAKER_01How so? I'd love to I'd love to hear more on that. Uh you've used a cricketing analogy already. So for uh for Dean and others from from overseas, getting on the front foot means to play a more attacking shot.
SPEAKER_02How I didn't even notice that. Getting on the front foot. I'm surprised there's only been one. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01We'll we'll draw stumps on on all cricketing analogies now. But how's that? So getting on the front foot means, okay, being more positive, being more active, being more um not aggressive, but but positive in your engagement. How how does surely when the when the issue of of abortion comes up, um we are cast as these pariahs who are benighted and you know um Neanderthal in our views? How could it be a positive to raise a pro-life issue in an evangelistic setting?
SPEAKER_02I think our culture's on very it is conscious actually of being very shaky on shaky ground when it comes to anthropology and who we are as human beings. And and that explains, I think, um some of the the passion with which views are well, I was gonna say defended. I don't think they're defended. You're just not allowed to even raise an alternative. And I think that betrays a lack of confidence. And I long for Christians to be able to um graciously at least raise questions in people's minds. And interestingly, even here in Oxford, it's a pretty small number that are shouting very loudly what we're all meant to think, and then an awful lot of people in the middle who may instinctively think, well, that might be right, but may well have questions. And I want Christians to at least raise those questions in people's minds to say, look, there's another point of view. So we don't want to respond in the same way as the world speaks, which is shouting and not allowing another point of view, but somehow to get into the discussion and winstonly and graciously, and I recognize it's a real challenge when people don't allow that of you, to at least raise questions. Because I think a lot of people are asking those questions, uh, even if they they they're not allowed, they don't think they're allowed to express them. They might not even admit them to themselves, but they are asking them. And I I think that's bound to happen more and more because the the world's anthropology has no foundation. There is an assumption that human beings are special, but it has no foundation. So it's this is one of the many areas where I think advanced we we just need to equip people and encourage people to go there with conviction and with some compassion.
SPEAKER_01That's fascinating. You talk about um the shoutiness, and and you could you could kind of uh draw a caricature of a pro-life kind of red state American who you know always votes a certain way, um, and you could characterize such a person as as shouty, but um, as as you've said, um those who shout their own woke credentials um uh could also be caricatured in that kind of way. So what what hope is there for reasoned debates, do you think?
SPEAKER_02It's very hard, but I think it it happens relationally, and um I'm hoping and assuming that uh Christians are engaging with non-Christian friends, family members, colleagues, and uh very often in that context, it is much more possible to have a reasoned conversation, and we need to make sure we listen to other points of view, and hopefully the people who know us will know that we're not just unthinkingly and unfeelingly spouting a harsh message. So we need to show that we we get the complexity, we get we get the pain, and uh that there are real people engaged with this, and if we are genuine, warm human beings that show all that, then hopefully we can at least um present another point of view. So, how we engage publicly, that's a different different matter. I think we certainly need to do it, but most of these discussions are not on the big public fora, but are in private conversations, and I want to equip and encourage Christians to go there in that context. And it's much less likely to be shouty when there's a conversation with people we really know.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. And in those contexts, you can raise those anthropology points that you're making about the uniqueness of humanity and these humanitarian points. Um, I I think in really surprising ways. Certainly I find in my evangelism that speaking about human rights, for instance, um, gets you a very long way in terms of conversations because it it seems almost magical, this belief in the in the special status of mankind. Um, and once you walk away from Jesus Christ, um you have ever less reason to hold on to the special dignity of man and that sort of thing. Um and so how how do we draw those two things together? How do how do we how do we make the issue of abortion into a human rights issue, into a humanitarian issue?
SPEAKER_02Well, it all it all flows back to um what is the status of the baby in the womb. And um essentially, I mean a Christian view uh is that um that is a human being, it's a human life with dignity and value. The world's view if you're gonna support abortion, you've got to say that either this is not a human person or a human person doesn't have the right to life and to protection. And if you're gonna say that that is conditional on reaching a certain stage of the pregnancy, then you are saying human personality is conditional. It's conditional on reaching certain capacities. And if that goes before birth, surely it applies after birth. So does that mean that we can lose humanity and lose personality if we lose capacity? And that that is a very, very shaky ground. So if you're gonna say actually we want to protect all human life outside the womb, regardless of capacity, then that pushes back into the womb as well.
SPEAKER_01And so, in these personal conversations that we're having, we can say, Why are you pro-life? Why would you possibly want to control women's bodies or whatever it is that's thrown at us? Um, at that point, we can say, Because I I really believe a person is a person no matter how small. I believe what Dr. Zeus said, a person is a person no matter how small, and I want to stand up for the little guy because my God became the little guy.
SPEAKER_02Um Yeah, and and then it becomes a justice issue. And uh suddenly in Oxford, and I think generally across the younger generation, that there's an increasing concern for justice, and that's something I I value greatly in a younger generation. And actually, we're we're not about some kind of impersonal, nasty bit of old-fashioned dogma. We're about justice. Um we're we're concerned for for individual value, every single individual. So I think we need to somehow frame it in those terms.
SPEAKER_01Hey, hope you're enjoying the wisdom of Vaughn Roberts. I learned so much from our conversation together. Can I ask you a question? Do you enjoy Speak Life? Is the Speak Life podcast part of your weekly podcasting diet? Or perhaps the videos that we produce, or our books, our courses, our tracts, there are any number of ways that we seek to lift up the name of Jesus in our culture, and we would love to have your support to do so. Perhaps supporting the podcast would be a way that you can support the ministry of Speak Life, both online and face to face, as we resource the church to reach the world. Could you visit speaklife.org.uk slash give and consider making a donation either one-off or monthly in order to support the work of the gospel that we do. Or another way you could support us would be to give our podcast a rating and a review on iTunes or wherever it is that you get your podcasts from, or share it around on social media. Could you make some noise for the Speak Life Podcast and recommend it to your friends and family? We would love it if you could support us in that way. If you feel moved to help us in any of those ways, why don't you pause the podcast right now and uh go and see to those things and then come back and we'll have the rest of the interview with Vaughan Roberts. Thank you so much. With with speaking about your context, one of one of the contexts for Vaughan Roberts is the UK's wokest city, Oxford. Uh, another context for Vaughn Roberts is conservative evangelicalism. Um, and you're you're you're a minister with a high profile within certain circles of conservative, reformed evangelical uh Christians in this country. Um we haven't done a stellar job, though, have we? Um perhaps you know we we look back to John Start and we look back to issues facing Christians today, um, but we haven't done a stellar job of of standing up for the unborn from pulpits and in terms of church leadership. Um, why do you think that is?
SPEAKER_02It's very hard to do. Um I think as as those many are committed to expository preaching, and as you go through the Bible, there's no chapter that says, oh, this is this is just about abortion. And there are a number of times when it could be one application, but it's very, very hard to just you know, if you give um three sentences on it, that's very hard to do because you want to to speak with conviction, with clarity, and compassion, you can't do that, and so it doesn't naturally come up, or if it does, we think we're gonna do it so badly. So I think we have to think carefully how how can I do this? Um that may well be and this is something I've done occasionally, which would would be to do a topical series and have a sermon simply on it, or to be thinking, okay, let's do seminars and other contexts. But because it's hard to do, um, it doesn't get done unless you really are convinced this has to happen. And I suppose at the end of the day, uh, too many of us have felt, I'm not sure it really has got to happen, or if it does, I just don't feel up to doing it. So we need to help one another, steal each other our conviction. We cannot afford, we must go there, and we must help each other to go there, and let's help each other to think how do we do this better?
SPEAKER_01So make a case for it. Let's let's uh assume that there are there are many church leaders uh listening into this right now, um, and they they're on the fence because they're thinking, I I don't want to become the single issue person, I don't want to distract from the gospel, um, I don't want to speak insensitively as a man, you know, in the sense in this uh congregation. Uh I I don't want to upset people who might have had abortions in the past. That there are any number of reasons why we might not want to go there. Why is it worth it?
SPEAKER_02There's so many different answers to that question. But let's let's just begin. I'm I'm supposed I'm talking to pastors, and uh straight away we're thinking about those in in front of us, most of whom are Christian. Well, straight away there's a reason to go there. Because if it's true that that a very large proportion tragically of women in the UK have had abortions, that that isn't just true of those outside the churches. There will be lots of people in our churches that had abortions, and in many cases, this is something they very rarely feel able to talk about, and we need to passor to them. And if if we never go there, we're not pastoring to them. And um when I, with great fear in trending, first addressed this topic in a wholesome, um, I I was worried because I knew there would be some people out there who were listening to me who had had abortions, and I was and I I made it clear. Look, I'm gonna touch on raw nerves and so on, but I was very worried about that. You know, every time I've done it, I think every time I've done it, I've heard feedback from someone who's had an abortion, either directly or indirectly, and they are so grateful that I've gone there. Because by by speaking about it, hopefully with conviction, but also with gospel compassion, that is one way in which the gospel, uh the the Holy Spirit uses the gospel to come into their lives and touch that part of them that they often don't want to go there, that the guilt is still there, that the emotions are still there. So just pastorally we've got to go there. Now, I'm not saying we're the only people who should do it, and uh, we need to equip women to speak to women on this subject and speak to our churches, seminars, and so on. But if the the pastor never goes there, the impression could be given this is something I don't care about, and I don't see why you need to care about. Silence is not silent, it speaks volumes. It was begun to engage with the evangelistic thing and the justice issue. There's much more could be said.
SPEAKER_01It was striking when John Wyatt spoke at the very first Brefos conference, um, which was two conferences ago now, and uh he said uh there at all Solz Lang and Place, um, where he'd been for many decades, he said he he he couldn't think of uh a child being born out of wedlock to the 20s and 30s group. You know, there's a very large you know 20s and 30s group there in central London, um, and he's not so naive as to think that um children might not be produced, even among good Christians. Um, what is the conclusion he drew from that? Because these subjects are not raised often enough, um, people would rather clean up their problem by going to the the clinic rather than raise a child out of wedlock and admit um their mistake that that actually their their shame at single parenthood somehow trumped um this issue of abortion. And and what did John Wyatt conclude from that? Well, we're just not teaching on this issue. Um we're just not raising it up among our our own people, and um, and some of the consequences of that could be dire. Um, we need to draw stumps um uh on this. But let me just ask you one one question. The the the book Abortion that's coming out uh with the Good Book Company, and uh those who are uh in on this Zoom chat, they will get a special code where they can get a discount uh on the book. What is your hope uh for this book and what is your hope for kind of evangelicalism here in the UK as it starts to grapple with this issue?
SPEAKER_02Well, I'll answer the second question first. I I just long that this becomes a subject that we equip one another to engage with with conviction and compassion for the sake of our our own folk partially because of uh the pain that they are bearing and guilt that they're bearing right now to protect them in the future so that if if uh difficult circumstances come they know that that this is a context in which I can talk about these things rather than feel I've got to engage in shame and in silence. And also I want people to be equipped to be engaging in our society because this is the great shame. I think there are many things that cause shame but this is the great shame and Christians need to be out there engaging in our society. We're not going to do that unless we have that conviction um which is flowing from a compassion gospel uh passion and I hope this book will play a part in that it's uh that there's an awful lot that needs to be done.
SPEAKER_01Wonderful Vaughan Roberts thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00Thank you Glenn we've got a question here from Hannah and she says how can we be loving and supporting women who are in terrible situations such as pregnancy due to rape or with an abusive husband or boyfriend so what can I guess not just um centers do but what can we all be practically doing to help those people as well?
SPEAKER_01I think one thing that that issue brings up is that churches need to be um radically Jesus centered radically offering family um to vulnerable women who are wondering how on earth am I going to bring a child into this world? Am I going to be supported there won't be anyone around me um to help me with this and indeed my child might be a reminder of the most traumatic thing that has ever happened to me it's very well it's all very well for Christians to say you must keep that child will these Christians help me as this child grows and as I grow with the child and it it really brings home to me that churches um we shouldn't be pro-life because we're socially or politically conservative I think actually to be truly pro-life you have to be radical you have to be um to incre to rethink the family in the way that Jesus demands us to rethink the family such that we open our homes and hospitality indefinitely to people who are going to need us um in in in radical ways. So in order to consistently be pro-life and to proclaim this message we need to stand with women who've been through hell and to say we're we're not just going to um we're not just going to march you away from the abortion clinic we're actually going to open up our homes to you and and be there for you so that you can have this child. And that will that will require our churches to engage in in the radical kind of hospitality that that Jesus speaks of when when he actually says you you could lose father or mother or child or fields and actually receive a hundred times as much in this life. He says that in Mark chapter 10 and he says that because the church is meant to be a hundred times as you know as good a a family unit as blood relatives ever could be and so it's that's that that question I I don't have an answer to that question. It just it just reminds me that to be pro-life is not to be conservative politically socially it's to be a radical Jesus person and it really challenges us to step up to the plate and s and care practically for the people who are saying we want them to have the children.
SPEAKER_02And to go one one step beyond that obviously the the whole question of fostering and adoption and uh there will be children born and uh the women either doesn't feel able to look after is is not able to look after them well someone needs to and we will know that um there's a desperate need for more people to uh to help with fostering and adoption I think the UK church is beginning to talk about this much more than it were but I've been very challenged in preaching trips to the states and and just seeing much more of a movement I think there we've got a lot to learn and uh it's very challenging. It is very costly this is not just the cost of speaking up as as as Glenn said there's much more involved in this cost.
SPEAKER_00Here's a question for um Vaughan and maybe some others um of you it's from Martin and he says uh it seems to me that many Bible passages could be very reasonably uh could very reasonably be applied to the issue of abortion in an expository manner how do you think pastors could be encouraged to do that in their churches without feeling that they are insensitively probarring the issue in or are breaking the rules of expository preaching?
SPEAKER_02Well first I I totally agree that there are plenty of passages that can be naturally applied to abortion and um there's there's something wrong if if we never make that application. I think one of the the things that makes pastors fearful is if they're not teaching about the subject at all and only ever make some brief uh reference in an application then it they won't be able to say all that they want to say in the way they want to say it so they don't get there at all. And I would want to say we need more than that but not less than that. So um I I would encourage um more overt teaching occasionally topical series which can uh in sermons go that I do just one topical series a year mainly expository for one topical series that could be the subject certainly midweek teaching and then when one says a brief application one's able to say look I know this is a very sensitive issue and I'm not able to say all I'd like to say and then you can refer to um to some other context where you address it more fully please look on the website and if this is an issue um that you it's raised more questions and asked do come back to me and so you're you're covering yourself at that point.
SPEAKER_01So I just totally agree I think we we need those applications but it's not just that there needs to be more as well can I add to that as well in terms of um a couple of things when I'm asked why I'm pro-life it's not so my I don't I don't zero in on Psalm 139 or Psalm 51 or a single verse. Usually I say it's because of Christmas and Easter um because at Christmas when did God the Son begin his life as man? At conception there's no question about that. To say anything other than that makes you a heretic okay so we know we know when life begins because of the incarnation because of Christmas and because of Easter we have a theology of the cross and I'm in particular I'm thinking of 1 Corinthians 1 um that God chooses the weak things and the despised things and the things that are not in order you know the that actually to be a person to be an Easter kind of a person is to be a person who uh does what God does which is to love the loveless you know love to the loveless shown that they might lovely be um when you put Christmas and Easter together you you you can't be anything but pro-life really but that this is a theological understanding that takes in the whole sweep of Christ his incarnation his death his resurrection this is why we're pro-life not just because there's one or two verses scattered throughout the Bible about the sanctity of life it's it really does pervade the scriptures and if we're not seeing it pervade the scriptures then we're not really having our eyes opened to the um the profundity of what the Bible says about our humanity and that's one issue. A second issue even the most committed verse by verse exbo expositor I challenge them have they mentioned COVID 19 like have have they mentioned what's going on in the world at all and what I find is that the the most committed person who just is might might be a walking Bible commentary who just you know begins at verse one and you know laboriously works their way to verse 11 and then ends and then next week let's come back for verse 12 even the most laborious verse by verse expositor will probably have mentioned COVID-19 which this year has killed 175,000 people which is a lot of people it's a huge deal um abortion so far this year has killed 13 million worldwide it's a big issue have we mentioned COVID 19 even the most committed verse by verse expositor has mentioned COVID 19 I guarantee it have have we mentioned the 13 million lives that have been lost to abortion just this year you know that well that was pretty much the last word of the conference it is a dumbfounding statistic isn't it 125000 babies killed every single day around the world it is the great shame of our time so let us pray let us preach and let us practice the way of Jesus we should be optimists about this cause as we pray every day your kingdom come your will be done in this issue even as it is in heaven so we keep on preaching we keep praying we keep practicing the way of Jesus with great optimism knowing that the gospel of Jesus is good news for the world and it's even good news preached into this difficult issue. Guys thank you so much for joining us on the Speak Life podcast if you want to get in touch with us in any way why don't you do that on social media we are Speak Life UK on Facebook we are Speak Life UK on Twitter. You can find us on YouTube, Speak Life Media or drop us a message on the website speaklife.org.uk Thanks for your company God bless and keep speaking life