Welcome one and all to a special edition of the live cast. My name is Glenn Scrivener. Here I am in Lockdown in Eastbourne. And uh over in Crowbra, who do we have with us?
SPEAKER_05Uh Paul Feasy, still here, as always. Yes.
SPEAKER_06Yes. It is required that that is where you are.
SPEAKER_05Yes, yes indeed.
SPEAKER_06Locked down. And uh we have uh some very special guests with us uh for this edition of the live cast. Uh we've got Ben Chang and Sarah Foote, and uh both are junior doctors, both are members of the Christian Medical Fellowship, and uh so they are really at the intersection of uh faith and medical care, which uh is on our hearts and minds at this time, and we thought it'd be a great chance to talk to them. So uh should we go over to North London and uh first get introduced to uh Ben. Ben, uh, would you like to introduce yourself to us? Uh what is it that you do day to day and uh tell us maybe just a little bit uh of your your Christian journey. Why are you the Christian that you are today?
SPEAKER_00Um hi, uh I'm Ben. I uh as Glenn said, I'm a junior doctor. Um I work in the AE department in um kind of medium-sized hospital in uh North London. Um, why am I the Christian I am today? Um uh lots of reasons it's difficult to give a short answer to that. Um I have benefited a lot from uh my church. I go to church in uh also uh Langham Place in um central London. Uh I've been heavily influenced by um a guy called Professor John Wyatt, who's the president of um Christian Medical Fellowship. Um, and so I've learned a lot from him about what it means to be um a Christian, a Christian doctor, um, about uh you know what it means to follow Christ and serve him in everything. Um so yeah, that's me.
SPEAKER_06Love it, love it. And uh also in London we have uh Sarah Foote, who is also a junior doctor, and uh you are at work at the moment, is that right, Sarah?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I'm really lucky I've been able to just take a bit of time out of work. Um I am uh working in um medicine uh rather than AE in a big London hospital. Um I have been Christian for five years uh and um CMF has been um really influential in um my Christian walk, particularly how it goes with my with work and um that and my my home churches. So um I'm at uh a small Anglican church in Dartford and Christchurch Dartford the the teaching there and the um support, um, the love and the prayer has really helped me to sort of get where I am today.
SPEAKER_05Guys, can you give us a sense of um how things have sort of changed then for you in in the hospitals over the last week or so?
SPEAKER_00Um massively. Um there's been huge changes from the very, very big to the very, very small. Um, so there are kind of huge structural changes. Um, departments are kind of re-reforming, um, staff have been kind of taken out of some departments that they're used to and being brought into the more sort of acute specialties. Um kind of big kind of hospital changes, um, all the way through to the very small things. Um, so for example, I'm learning that it's quite challenging to show kind of an empathetic, friendly facial expression when half of my face is covered with a mask. Um, but I like learn how to communicate my eyebrows a bit more. Um yeah, from the very big to the very small. Um, it you know, it's it's it's very different to how it was just a few months ago. Um, so everybody would agree.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I echo that. The um trying really hard to smile with my eyebrows um behind uh masks uh is something I've been learning. And um uh we have uh got in a lot more resources, so a lot more people, a lot more equipment. Um things have moved around, um, and staff are working longer hours on different shift patterns to make sure we can meet the current need.
SPEAKER_06And I mean, have you been watching? I mean, everyone who's been kind of watching first China and then Italy in particular, um, as they have been overwhelmed by coronavirus cases. What's it like seeing that kind of tsunami on the horizon and and knowing that this could be the NHS?
SPEAKER_02I think for particularly Italy, because it's a um a European country, so I think there's a feeling that their health services is more similar, and also that this constant comparison between our curve and their curve. Um, we are quoting, you know, the quoting of how many weeks behind Italy that we are, um has been uh really scary as doctors, and we see what the doctors are doing, the the scary decisions they're making, um the lack of resources. Um, and then there's also hope because um the NHS is awesome, and I think uh a lot of people who work in the NHS really do know what an incredible health service we have. Um, and um we aren't Italy. Um, we we know it's going to be hard, but I think we're hoping um I think there's still hope we we're at a point where we have made so many vast scale changes um that we can and and you know the constant talking of flattening the curve so that we it's not as bad as Italy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I I would agree. Um I think at the moment, no, the kind of the the workload I think at least from my experience is is currently quite manageable. Um, in fact, the number of patients coming into the AE department at present is lower than normal, um, presumably because people with um sort of more minor ailments and injuries um are not coming to hospital because they know there's high risk of exposure in hospital, um, which begs the the parallel question of who's not coming to hospital that should be, um which is you know, again a concern. Um but I currently things stand, you know, I think we're managing from a sort of workload perspective, but there's always that kind of anticipation of this avalanche that we think is coming, uh, and we know that because of places like Italy. Um, I mean, having said that, I think we are um, I think there is reason to be grateful that we are able to learn from places uh such as Italy and China as they are ahead of us, and you know, we are fortunate in that um and can prepare based on kind of knowledge of the future from what we see.
SPEAKER_06Are there are there sort of health services that you look across to and and think are doing a good job that we could we could be modeling ourselves on?
SPEAKER_00I think I think it's a really like difficult question because the reality is no one really knows what the correct response will be. And and in a few months or years' time, there will be so many research projects on which countries did it well and which countries did it less well, and what could have been done differently. But at this point, um I think it's impossible to to to know who's which countries responded kind of the best, as it were, because it is so so live and so changing.
SPEAKER_05Can you, with all the the pressure on you guys and the staff of the hospitals, can you give us a sense of what the mood's like amongst staff?
SPEAKER_02In my hospital, I think um generally we're very upbeat. Uh I think doctors as a whole are uh um we can we can be quite upbeat, but I think um when I'm in the queues, so our hospital is giving us free food from the canteen, um, because obviously there's no um patients or uh no one, no members of the public are going to our canteen to get food, either patients um in days clinics or relatives. So they've switched to just offering staff and it's free. Um I hear and laughter, I I um uh yeah, so and and chatter, so I think um it's spill up B. Um we've had some um hard news today about uh running out of resources, um, and that as a ward we found really hard to hear because we know that will mean we've got some tough decisions to make in the next um few weeks. We'll be making tough decisions from today. Um, and I know there's um there is uh uh anxiety among staff, so um we have uh some rules about like social distancing rules, it's it's quite hard in a hospital because as doctors and nurses you'll be all in a room together to have a meeting, um, and then you're expected social distance in the canteen, for example, um, and it feels um uh so sometimes um a pile of people will pile into a lift, and as someone else who's been very careful about social distancing will get very upset about that. Um so there is that undercurrent of stress that that sort of um flares up every so often, which I think is the same as in in public, you know, um people getting upset as at the supermarket, it's it's not the the supermarket, it's it's that undercurrent of stress that everyone's experiencing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I um yeah, my hospital's doing free meals as well for us, which is really kind of touching and nice. Um, and a lot of other companies are giving us free things as well. I mean, the most random thing I've got, I got a free Gillette Razor. Um, which I feel I'm not the best, I'm not the kind of target market, but um that was nice. Um I think I would add to that that there's kind of the people coming into AE, but I think there has been an increase in the number of kind of really unwell, really sick people. Um, people who uh we we we investigate and we try to manage as best we can, we treat as best we can, but we also know that uh they are very unwell and and the kind of a lot of them, the likelihood of them surviving the admission is is low. Um and that's I mean people struggling for breath, people their lungs um basically give out because of the acute um inflammation that's caused by by the virus. Um and I think one of the things that's changed as well, you know, we're doctors, we we see death you know frequently, but one of the things that's changed this time is that um my hospital, like most hospitals, are have um have basically banned almost all visitors and family. And so people are suffering and in some cases dying alone.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and that's really hard to see. Um, and so it's quite a sad place um to be working um at the moment. I think that seems to be the kind of overarching um emotion, at least among my colleagues, is that the workload's okay, but it's it's actually really quite depressing. Um what we're seeing.
SPEAKER_06What what what is that? So somebody who we say dies alone, they have they have medical attention, they have people around. They just they don't have family around them, nobody is allowed into the room.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, um, so if we know that someone's kind of imminently dying, we'll we'll try our best to call um family to get them in as quick as possible so that they can spend their last few moments with the those who love to like hold their hand or um you know whatever it is. Um, but there are very tight restrictions that on on people coming in.
SPEAKER_06And and you say you you see death all the time as doctors, um, but there is this heightened, intensified sense of the tragedy of this right now. What what difference does it make as a Christian to face this? If if you didn't have Jesus, if you didn't have the hope of resurrection, a faith that that is larger than these things? What what difference does your your your faith make?
SPEAKER_02So I think um uh one thing for me is that um as you said, there's that hope um and the and the knowledge that our God is bigger than this, um, that it's not all about the NHS, it's not all about every single doctor because because God is bigger. And um there that takes a weight off you, you're not carrying everything, um, and it's also uh it's someone to share with because um uh both um because if you're not here not doing it, however, supportive I'm I'm married, my husband um is incredible, but he's not here in in the hospital and seeing it. Um I am driving to work at the moment because we've got free car parking and um we're trying to avoid too many people in public transport. So um I talk to God as I drive in, and and sometimes I I despaired. I think it was yesterday morning, and I just thought it feels like um I look at the bushfires at the beginning, it was in January 2020, the bushfires in Australia ravaging um uh Australia, and I'm like, it feels like this invisible fire ravaging our world now, and um it's just someone to go, why? Why is why is this? And and um knowing that there's someone that loves us and that there's it's bigger than that. Um it just gives me um a sense of uh not aloneness, of support, of love, um, and uh a direction um and a reason. I I I feel that I was um I'm I'm not in medicine to pursue a career, I am here to serve people, that's you know, to serve my neighbours and my neighbours, my neighbours are my really simple as well. I come to work and I am at work to serve, and that um is uh one of the wonderful things about God is that the things that we're asked to do, um they're not these not they aren't hard rules that are there to make our life worse. It's not a bad thing. Um serving other people is wonderful, um, and uh for that I'm very grateful.
SPEAKER_00I think also the the hope of resurrection, I think is that it's become so valuable um that you know the the risk of me catching coronavirus is high. Um I mean and the most likely is that I'll be okay. Um, but you know, I even even if I'm not um that hope is is so valuable at this time. And also for the patients, I mean I believe that um you know when people die, there is a possibility that by God's grace I might see them again. Um and that again is is is very valuable in this time.
SPEAKER_06Can you talk us through um just medically? We we've seen um you know the the whistleblower in um Wuhan um who contracted coronavirus himself and and died of it, and then we've we've seen many, many more cases of medical professionals who um are young and seem to have no underlying health conditions, and yet uh a far greater proportion of those uh are dying of coronavirus. That's my impression, anyway. Is is that true? And if if that's the case, why might that be the case?
SPEAKER_02Um so one thing I will say is um every time a doctor gets it, it's reported on the news because it's it's news. Uh so I've seen in the UK I think about four daughters have died with it already. Um and I think part of that is is is media bias um because this virus will infect anyone, and so young people will get it, and young people will end up in hospital, and there will be some young people that could die of it that are the exception to the rule of mostly it's affecting older people with with comorbidities, and that there are some theories about um uh being exposed to more virus and can make you more unwell, and that and some of that has come from Italy because there are certain things that procedures that are done in hospital that can make you more exposed. Um, at the moment, this virus isn't just we just don't know enough about um so uh we know that we have um the guidelines, the guidelines do change, that we're trying to be sensible. Um, and uh we know that we see the worst of it in hospital as well. You know, there's so many people out there self-isolating the symptoms. Um, there are people that get such minor symptoms that they don't even know if they've had it. We have to keep remembering that most people, including doctors, including nurses, including the cleaners and the porters, most of them are okay.
SPEAKER_05When we were talking earlier about looking at kind of what was going on in Italy and whether that kind of gave us an idea of what was coming, Sarah, you spoke a bit about tough decisions that doctors are having to make and that you guys might be having to make in the near future. Can you give us a sense of kind of what some of those decisions might look like and might be?
SPEAKER_02Um in Italy, um, they uh I believe they made some blanket rules about who was allowed to go to ITU or um uh and so um normally in this country um every uh the decision about who uh goes to ITU is patient, every patient is different, um, and every individual patient circumstances is taken into account. Um, so you would never say, oh that patient's 90, they are not allowed to come to ITU because patients who are 90 can come to ITU under certain circumstances, be treated, and go home and have and it's a is a good sort of use of resources. Um, resources are now much more limited. Um, we've been told today that one of the um interventions that we would normally give, um, we aren't allowed to give if the patient wouldn't be appropriate for ITU. So it's it's an intervention we would do on the ward. Um, we're now not allowed to give that unless they are uh the next step would be for ITU, and that's to save that intervention, it's a particular type of oxygen marks to be given to other patients who, if they then get sick, can can then go on to ITU. Um so we're basically saying if we don't think ITU is appropriate, you cannot have anything more than quite basic supportive treatment on the ward. Um this will affect those who we um uh it's people who um are older, sicker, um have more medical problems, um who and and and that's and that's a change, that's a that's a change from animal practice. Um and that was and that was quite crushing to hear that today. Um and uh I haven't really and at the time talking, I haven't had time to process how I how I go about that as a Christian um because uh if I have a patient in front of me, normally I do my level best for them to knowingly not give someone something is completely against my Christian ethos. Having said that, it's not like I will be literally holding the answer in my hand and and withholding it from them, it's that I'm not making the phone call to the person who then brings it to my wall to put it on them, and actually they won't do it now because of this new rule, and so it's taken out of my hands. But I haven't, um, other than a sense of sadness, um, knowing that that we are hitting what's called the surge, um I haven't processed fully how I feel about um these new changes.
SPEAKER_06They are for the preservation of life, obviously. Um it's to save money. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that's the thing. I suppose you you know, whilst you might be feeling you know, you're withholding something from someone else, you might not see the knock-on effect it has to save someone else. And I guess that is the maybe the thing to kind of keep in mind, even if that's a tricky thing to do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it's as a Christian, you would normally not um uh like the kind of utilitarian grace is good for the greatest number, um, and it's it's um uh I think remembering um what uh the Bible teaches us, um, and um you know we we have rules in our land that we have to follow. Um, and um and as you say, I know that if uh we haven't got enough of these particular type of masks, and so if it's going on my patient in a in a potentially um futile fashion, um, but there is another patient who it will help. Um in a and and essentially they're saying this because we think um it's only delaying death for people now rather than extending and saving life. Um, and that's a principle any doctor is familiar with because we won't keep treating people up to the last second. We recognise when death is imminent and make people comfortable rather than um rather than having this sort of long protracted death where we keep on going and going and going. Um we we make people comfortable, and this is this is an extension of that. Um, and that's but that's what we have to be careful about is extensions of you know, oh that's okay, but then is this okay and then is this okay?
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, and I think on that note, I think um we as good clinical practice we have to acknowledge that some treatments are futile, that you know for some patients we shouldn't do CPR because it will be futile, it won't work. But there's a kind of a very fine but very important line between saying a treatment is futile and saying someone's life is futile, and saying that that life is not worth living. Um and that's um both not legal, but also you know it kind of um goes against um kind of the Christian ethics um around death. Um and um I I I do wonder as to whether people are gonna um you know with with such um uh scarcity of resources, um, what kind of questions. Are going to be asked and whether people might start thinking, if not saying, um things around so futility of life runs, futility of treatment, maybe that's that's a possibility.
SPEAKER_06It's an intensification of something that any health service has to deal with because there are scarce resources and you can't help all the people all the time. So everybody, at some point, somebody has to make that decision of allocation, and it will mean that some people miss out. And that is the nature of the case. But it is the nature of the case in every walk of life. You know, we we could put parachutes onto planes that are large enough to actually have any plane that sort of loses its engine failure gently kind of waft down. But they would be so they would be so heavy that every everyone's you know plane ticket would increase like tenfold. Um and and everybody who gets onto that plane is kind of buying into a system where we say there are scarce resources, I'm gonna I'm gonna take the you know the added chance of uh of crashing um so that I can you know fly to Majorca on the cheap. We we all do that all the time. Um that's a lockdown.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I'm not doing that now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think I think Ben put it really eloquently and importantly that it's the sanctity of life. Um like the sanctity of someone's life um is is what's is help how helps guide us that everyone's life matters.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And you know, we are all we are all equal, fallen people in God's eyes, and he loves us all equally. Um, and that's a a guiding principle for a Christian doctor.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, the profoundly Christian principle. Um, but I do I do see it as being um under threat at a time of scarcity and a time of crisis when you've got to choose between I've got this 90-year-old or I've got this 40-year-old in perfect health, or this 40-year-old who has two kids and has an underlying health condition, and you know, who do I give the treatment to? Um, but yes, can we can we hold on to the the sanctity of every every single human life? Um yeah, very important stuff. Um uh Ben, can you talk to us a little bit about um lockdown and um mental health? Because um uh what what day is this now? Is it is this day like 14 or something of uh if this is going out on Monday? Uh day 14 of lockdown, and here we are. We're allowed our one bit of exercise, um, but a lot a lot of people have underlying anxiety conditions already. How can how can we take care of ourselves, not just physically, but also mentally?
SPEAKER_00No, it's a it's a really important question. Um, and there are lots of reasons why this pandemic um may affect, may harm our mental health. I mean, isolation, fear, anxiety, loss of um social support networks, um, you know, psychological, psychiatric services, being less accessible. There's loads, lots of reasons. Um, and I think one of the things that I've learned from um John Wyatt that I I think is really important is the importance of um what he calls mental hygiene. Um, so we all know that it's really important to wash our hands as many times as possible for 20 seconds. Um, but it's also important to maintain a regular and disciplined um healthy thought life. Um, and um John White kind of grinds this in um Philippians uh 4 8. So um he says, uh finely brothers, uh this Paul says, uh finely brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. We are to fill our heads with good and godly things. Um and John points out that there are kind of three big um uh kind of areas that Paul mentions. So truth, um goodness, whatever is noble, right, pure, and then beauty, whatever is lovely, praiseworthy, praiseworthy, and and excellent. Um and we need to be in this kind of regular habit of keeping our thought lives healthy. We need to be thinking, filling our heads with what is true, um, about you know the truth about who God is or what he's done in history.
SPEAKER_06Um you need to go, Sarah.
SPEAKER_00No, no, no, I'm good.
SPEAKER_06No, you're okay. Okay, sorry, Ben.
SPEAKER_00Um uh thinking about the true things, but also I think that necessarily involves um filtering out all the junk and all the noise um that kind of jams our minds. And therefore, I think it's wise to put a limit to the amount we're scrolling through social media feeds or reading endless opinion pieces. Um, we're to think about what is good. Um, that yes, this is a tough, dark time, but there are good things. You know, people are caring for vulnerable and sick people in new ways. The environment's had a sudden cleanse. Um, people are learning the importance and the value of being still and quiet and restful. Um, and then beautiful things. Um, yeah, we can't go to art exhibitions and theaters, but we can enjoy music and literature and art and cookery from our home. We've got time to do that now. Um, and I think you're kind of getting into this kind of routine of filling our heads with with good and godly things, I think is really important in keeping our kind of mental hygiene, regardless of whether you have mental health problems or not, regardless of whether you're you know on the front line, whether you're self-isolating, you know, whatever. I think it's I think it's important for all of us.
SPEAKER_05I mean, I I've seen a number of people, I one of my other jobs is I teach guitar, and I've seen a number of people getting in contact and just saying, I've got all this time at home, and um I thought maybe I could learn the guitar because it's sitting there now, and people are trying to use their time productively, at least, you know, and stuff. So I could there are people doing that. Um on another note, how can we, as Christians, be praying for people like yourself, NHS workers um who are there in the system with what's going on?
SPEAKER_00Um there's um uh I think 1st of April there was uh uh CMF released a blog um askable 10 things to pay for Christian Health Care Workers, um which is is a very simple list. Um so recommend checking that out. Um my kind of top three um would be um our health, our work, and our um our faith. Um so um pray that we will stay safe, that we will stay healthy, um, that we will um that God will protect our health, um that God will help his work well. Um that he um you know being a doctor in this time is is challenging. Um it's as we mentioned, it's it's emotionally challenging. Um it's also clinically challenging. We're treating a condition that none of us had ever heard of um a couple of months ago, and none of us learn about coronavirus at medical school. Um, and so you know, we're making kind of decisions based on quite limited uh knowledge and information. So it's quite tough to not just treat our patients but to love them in a neighborly kind of um Christ-like way as best we can. Um and then prayer for our faith as well. Um there was a um also did a sermon a couple of weeks ago um on one Peter talking about these all kinds of trials that Peter mentions um resulting in refining our faith like gold. Um and I suppose my prayer would be that um our faith would be refined, um, that we are that this test, this trials, um, trialing period, this testing period um will result in our our faith being kind of refined and strengthened rather than being kind of burned up um in the in the troubles. Um those would be my my my top three.
SPEAKER_05Sarah, any thoughts from you on how we can be praying for people like yourself?
SPEAKER_02Um I uh really like what Ben's just said, actually. I think it sums out really well. And I think um for a personal and a big perspective is is the decision making is um praying that um doctors, um nurses we have wisdom um to love um and like we love the patient in front of us and that we um make uh decisions wisely for them. And then the the policy makers, that the the managers, the um the consultant departmental leads, um the you know the department of health, the NHS, that they are um making wise decisions with um the uh data available. I've been um from what I understand, I'm really impressed with our government response because certainly for a long time there was a lot of media like, oh why are we not doing this? Why should we do that? And I I I I get a real sense, and I'm definitely no expert, um, that they are following the the best available data we have, the best available predictions for our country because every country will be slightly different. I'm I'm praying that that that continues to be wise and that um uh that the decisions are made for the best of the population, not necessarily all looks like the best decision, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, absolutely. And I I guess there'll be lots of people who watch this, Christians who will be praying for you guys and and you know the whole NHS. But there are things we can are there things we can do as members of the public though, like practically that help you guys in maybe there are things we can do in order to keep ourselves physically healthy, or are there other things that we can be doing?
SPEAKER_00Um I I think um I kind of want to make a sort of go Sarah. Oh, yeah, yeah, there you go.
SPEAKER_02Um so from a public health perspective, um uh obviously keeping up to date with the um current government guidance. I'm nervous to say anything uh because there's a slight delay between recording this and it going out. Um as someone's already said, you know, washing our hands, um following those social distancing and following it um in the uh spirit it was meant to be followed in, and not necessarily going, oh well I can break that or you know, that rule doesn't technically apply here, so I can still go and work in that person. Um and so many people I know are doing that. Um, so and uh things like um not going out to drive our car a long way to do our exercise because um, as Ben said, alien attendances are down, and one of those um is uh trauma. Um, people aren't getting into accidents, and trust me, you don't want to have an accident right now and end up in a very busy hospital. Um, so that's important. Number two is is uh looking after our own physical health. Um and there have been some guidelines, um some the Association of Perioperative care, something like that, I'd have to check. Um and it's it's how you would normally keep yourself fit for having surgery. So it's things like stopping smoking, um eating and drinking well, getting that exercise, utilising your once daily exercise, but also keeping um active at home. Um, and uh so those are two really important things from a sort of public health thing perspective, and then um personally as a doctor, um uh my um family have been making some meals for us because I'm working much longer hours, and um my husband and I, when I agreed to increase my hours to support um the um uh the sort of effort, uh we we sort of had a brainstorm of how we can make other things easier in our lives because we without our 10-month-old felt we were only just coping with us both working um albeit part-time before coronavirus came, and now we're like, okay, I've got to work longer hours, I'm gonna be emotionally physically tired. So um uh we there's been lots of free food brought in the hospital, which we really, really appreciate. Um, there's uh our family are cooking some meals for us, which is it's just a huge difference. Um, and then um within our church family, um people keep dropping me text messages saying they're praying for me, and I absolutely love that to know that there is someone who is praying for me, it just feels so powerful. Um, and and feels really lovely that they care, and then um again within church, it's making that effort to keep connected. So um I uh go to a house group on a Monday morning, and I won't be there every Monday now. I have this um, we have like a seven-day road to now, so every day of the week is is the same, so I may or may not be like on Mondays, um, but when I'm around, I will connect in with my church family um on a Monday morning. Um, I um we're recording our sermons and so we can watch them on a Sunday. Again, I might be around every Sunday by connecting at another time. Um, and that that connectedness, um, just knowing that we're still a church family and we still get together and we chat and we pray and we read the Bible together um is is really important and I'm very very grateful we've made the effort to go online and um and thankful for that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would I would perhaps I I I absolutely agree and I perhaps add a kind of broader point uh about kind of how the church at large can support people. Um I think this is a real um, I think it's really important to be listening. Um so John Stott talked about double listening, about listening to the Bible deeply and studiously and profoundly, but then also listening to the word and sorry, to the world um and what's going on and listening to it um you know deeply and profoundly, um, so that we can then start bringing the word to bear on the world. And this world of coronavirus is weird, it's confusing, it's uh challenging, it's constantly changing. And so I think this this whole double listening thing is is really, really important that we as a Christian church, as a Christian family, need to be listening really carefully to um the details of people's lives, those who have hit economic hardship because of the pandemic, or people who are suffering with with coronavirus, um, or and indeed people on the on the front line. I think we need to listen really carefully to to exactly what's going on so that we can then kind of impactfully bring the Bible to bear um in kind of uh in the way we talk and the way that we act to one another. Um so I and I so I I think I think that's um very important that we don't just um you know I like anyone else who have like a Bible verse in my back pocket that I know I can send people that kind of cover the bases if they're if they're going through trouble. And those are good, and I really appreciate getting them, and I really appreciate people texting me saying um that they're praying for me. It's really moving. Um I think there's more. I think we I think we can do more if we listen carefully to the specifics of of what's happening in people's lives and how people's lives are being turned upside down because of this this virus.
SPEAKER_06And have you noticed among the people that you work with uh any greater openness at this time or seriousness to to talk about the stuff that matters?
SPEAKER_02Um in terms of so I um we have WhatsApp groups, I'm sure everyone um every doctor has WhatsApp groups, um, and um I there's been a lot of um uh lots of chat on it recently, and um people have said at various points, you know, if anyone else needs support, I'm here for you. Um uh people sort of say, like, I don't think we often recognise that work is going to be emotionally tough, and we have recognised and said this is gonna be hard, and and various people said, you know, if anyone needs to talk, I'm here. Um and and following that, I said um on my work WhatsApp group for Arms Christian, um, that uh I would um if uh we were struggling to get um if we had patients who needed prayer um prayer, I would happily come pray with them because obviously you know patients haven't got families with them, um and uh it's that's part of holistic care we will do try and find out if patients have got faith. Um, and um so I wanted my colleagues to know that they could just text me and you know I might be on the next door ward and I can come across and pray. Um but I also said to my colleagues, and actually I've already had one message from someone who um doesn't have a faith, um said to me, uh, quote, I wouldn't normally do this, um, but they've got a member of family who is very sick in the hospital and they've asked me to pray for them. Um and I've obviously said that I am, so um, it's um an opportunity, I think, when we're faced with death when it's suddenly a lot more real, because in our Western society, lots of people have never seen a dead body, we don't talk about dying as a society, um, and um actually that's a time when people start thinking, is there a bigger picture? You know, is there is there a god? Um, and so it is a isn't um it doesn't take away from how dreadful coronavirus is, but it is an opportunity as a Christian to um have more of these conversations because the world has changed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I I was on my um my um staff WhatsApp group and um one of the members of staff was was self-isolating, and then one of the Muslim doctors texted, I'm praying for you. And I was like, maybe I should maybe should I should start on that. Because yeah, everyone was definitely um no one no one was like, No, you're weird, we're not talking to you again. Um yeah, at least in my mind, that's often the response I fear.
SPEAKER_06Um we uh we're doing a webinar on Friday, um on Good Friday, talking about uh death. But uh it's it's it's interesting. We were trying to figure out what the title should be so that it's a gently evangelistic kind of introduction to how do we face our fragility? And we we sort of we went for that word fragility, uh, when really what we're gonna talk about our mortality, but you know, we no no one wants to talk about death, even with a global pandemic, like crisis, and you know, very answer. Yeah, we don't see death and we don't face up to it, but perhaps perhaps now we'll we'll start to get serious about life when we start to get serious about death.
SPEAKER_02Um, and actually, you asked us what we could be doing. Um, I think as Paul said, you know, what can we be doing um uh as members of the public? And um I echo the um Association of uh Panzer Medicine. Um uh they had a small news story uh um week or so ago, um, which was saying please have these conversations, have conversations with your families about um what you would want um in the event that you were dying. And um it's things like where would you like to die?
unknownUm would you um want your organs to be donated?
SPEAKER_02Um uh have you got any other requests? You know, would you like um uh for example, as a Christian, quite clearly, I'd want uh my husband to be praying with me. Um and uh it's it's it's starting those conversations. We all need to have them. I had this conversation with my husband about organ donation um long before coronavirus um and and about um when we would want uh treatment stopped because it was delaying death rather um rather than um saving our lives. Um and that's something that that can um if you have it when you're not unwell and there's much less emotion involved, it makes it easier, not easy, but easier when when there's lots of emotions um uh around and it's and it's very difficult.
SPEAKER_06And do you have a will and all those sorts of yeah issues and yeah, you've you've you've I'm I'm so embarrassed to say that we don't have a will.
SPEAKER_02I mentioned it to a friend who's a lawyer um a little while ago, and I think there's a like a day or a month or something when you can get a free will done by a lawyer because she recommended that you don't uh that you get it done by a lawyer, and then I didn't do it, and now Crone Advice has come, and um I um I haven't sorted it. Um and I this podcast has been for you, Sarah.
SPEAKER_06I thought you were gonna say uh when you told the the lawyer that you didn't have a will, he had a heart attack, but um but that's all right.
SPEAKER_01You're a no, that would have been a bit of she. Um no, she uh she didn't. She just gave to me some advice but I then didn't follow. Um so uh I should have a lot more empathy with patients not following my advice.
SPEAKER_06Should we finish on some silver linings? What are some silver linings in this moment? What are things that we can be thankful for? What are some opportunities that we have now that we didn't have before coronavirus?
SPEAKER_02Um, I've thought a lot about this. I think I think possibly because I had to be isolated. So I had um seven days at home um where I also felt unwell, so my husband tried to keep my son away from me because um I just was too ill to be doing very much with them other than um feeding them when necessary. Um and uh actually something our church started yesterday was a thankfulness diary, and there are so many things to be thankful for. And I um they were saying that you know, good mental health. Um the I mean, me personally, I'm I'm financially stable because I'm a doctor. Um, I have a roof over my head. We had a really incredibly sunny week for our first week of isolation. So we could all, when we went out for our bit of exercise, it was just beautiful sunshine. And actually, as a country as a whole, we are heading into the summer to do this isolating rather than the dark winter. I think that's a wonderful thing to be thankful for. I'm incredibly thankful for our health service and our um our government, our democracy, our ability to manage like the fact that we we still have food supplies coming into the supermarkets. The food supermarkets have repeatedly said about supply chains. It doesn't take away that we have moments when I think we all have moments when we're frightened, when we can't see whether this is going scary. I mean, I've been Christian five years, so I had a period of my adult life where I wasn't Christian to go back to my kind of default, which is like, oh, I'm doing really well at this, um and blah myself. And I'm not bigger than the room virus, so I have to turn to God. And I'm in the absence of anything else to do when I'm not at work, I have more time for prayer and reading the Bible. And I am still not as not as good as I'd like to be, and I'm sure I echo lots of people's um words on that. That you think I've got a whole day free. I can you know, I can read and I can pray and I can meditate and just be with God, and then you know, you watch three episodes on Netflix or something, um, or spend your day chasing after ten up, which is actually what I do with my time. Um, but that is an opportunity. I am definitely praying more, I am definitely spending just more time silently with God, and I am reading my Bible because I need it more than ever. So that's a real um blessing. Um, I think it's a huge blessing on the church because the church had grown in times of plague before, and I I really strongly believe that this is going to be a big opportunity. Um, some of the live streams that churches have done, they've seen vast audiences. Um, and um one of my friends is a vicar, and he asked on Facebook, um, he obviously has a lot of non-Christian friends and said, like, what should we be doing to church? And someone was like, I think you should make your um sermons available on YouTube because then people just see them to kind of commit to coming into the church, and it's like, Yes, that is happening. Obviously, that happened before, but it's suddenly going to become we're all expecting things to be done by Zoom, we're all expecting things to be on YouTube. So someone will go, Oh, I wonder what church they're well. I expect it'll be on YouTube, and a quick Google will find it. Um, so I think that's a a huge opportunity. Um, and I think it's an opportunity to change our way of life. So my uh life was really busy. Um, I actually had a conversation with another Christian medic when I was on maternity leave, and I said, Um, this was my son's all uh 10 months old, so about eight months ago, I remember saying to her how and my life had really slowed down because um I just sort of looked after my son. Um I had much less going on in it because I had a baby sort of taking up a big portion of it, but even then I was still quite busy, and I came back to work in um February and uh I'm just I'm at work. Um, as a doctor in training, we have to get portfolios done, we have to pass exams. Um, we we've got constant pressure to um sort out our CV so we can get to the next level of job. That's all stopped. I can't take exams, I no one's doing portfolio work, um, no one's you know, there's nothing to be gained from my career here, and I really, really love that opportunity to come to work to just serve and it not to be um uh shadowed by that kind of oh, but I do need to get this procedure done, so maybe I'm gonna do that instead of talking to this relative, for example, um, and that constant tug where I do need to do these things because I need to become a better doctor. But that there's that pull of like, oh, but I want to be a better doctor because I've got career aspirations. Um, it it feels much easier to follow God's plan for my life at the moment. It feels easier to focus on Him and focus on serving my my fellow um patients. And I really, as a personal thing, and I I would think I might not be the only medicine thinking this, as I come out of this, I um I think it will change all of us that we will have a different perspective on life, a different um idea of what's important, and you know, as a Christian, realizing that God is just so much more important than anything else, um, is is I think a change that will that will happen.
SPEAKER_00And I think I would add that um I think there are so many opportunities here for Christian distinctiveness. Um, I think we're just scratching the surface at the moment. There are so many ways that Christians can be different uh to the world. Like there's so many kind of world idols that will come crashing down, you know, health, money, um, security, being able to control your future, education, there's you know, is there's so much that people put their security into that has fallen through. And we as Christians can say actually our security is in something bigger and stronger than coronavirus, and and and what does that look like? Um, it's we have opportunities to be distinctive in the way we care for people. Um, that when everyone is looking to their own health and the health of their household, we can look to the vulnerable and you know, check up on our neighbors. Um, this is the first time I've ever had any communication with my my neighbors in the same building as me, where I put a letter in saying, um, hi, just let you know, um, you know, I I think we should start a WhatsApp group just in case we need anything if we're on self-isolation. Um, you know, kind of sort of literal loving your neighbor, I suppose. Um and and there is opportunity to be distinctive in the way that we view death. Um, and I hope and and pray that there'll be something about me at work that shows that I am not fearful of death, but I do believe in resurrection, I do believe that the grave is not the end. Um, I don't know what that would look like. I'm still trying to figure that out, but I I hope and pray that you know I will be distinctive in that way. So I think there's so many opportunities that we can grasp as Christians if we if we um if we think about it.
SPEAKER_06Wonderful, a wonderful note to finish on. Thank you so much, Sarah Foote and Ben Chang, both junior doctors in London, uh both members of the Christian Medical Fellowship. And uh if you guys want to find out more ways that uh we can adjust and uh adjust to the new normal, uh if you're on YouTube watching this, then uh you can just subscribe to our channel and there are a couple of playlists. Uh, we've been making video after video on these topics, uh different ways that churches can adjust, individuals can adjust, uh, and uh we hope that they will be a blessing to you. Uh, we're also doing these webinars uh that are these gently evangelistic ways of talking about the big issues in life at the moment. So uh tonight at 8 p.m. on Facebook, uh, we are talking about how to face our anxiety. Wednesday night we're gonna talk about how do we pray, perhaps for the first time. And on Friday night, we're gonna be talking about this issue of mortality. How do I face my fragility? So go to facebook.com slash speaklifeuk. Speaklife UK on Facebook, and you can get all that stuff. Uh guys, thank you so much uh for joining us. Thank you, Ben. Thank you, Sarah, thank you, Paul. And we'll see you again soon. Okay, God bless. Bye bye.