The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life.
SPEAKER_00Hello everybody. My name is Glenn Scrivener, and uh we are here on uh the Speak Life Livecast, and we've got a very special episode for you. As ever, I am Glenn Scrivener, and uh over in Crovra we have Paul Feasy. What's it like on lockdown day number one for you, Paul?
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, no, it's it's fine. I have been out actually. I went to the pharmacist to try and pick up some prescriptions, but um they were closed, so I have to go back later.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So you you've had your one outing for the day, and that's that's it, right? Yeah, I've got my oxygen. Good man, good man. Uh but over in Naples in Italy, we have uh Mark Odin, a church leader uh over there in Naples, and it's day 15 of lockdown, isn't it right?
SPEAKER_03It's day 15 for us here. Yep.
SPEAKER_00Goodness, goodness. How long have you been in in uh Italy for, Mark?
SPEAKER_03So we've been out here for six and a half years now in in southern Italy, in Naples. Uh my wife and I and our four children as a family who moved out.
SPEAKER_00Okay, and you're with Crosslinks, is that right? Uh missionary organization.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. So we um we were sent by mission by Crosslink out here to set up a church in the center of Naples, which um which has been a huge adventure. My my background, although I sound very English, my mother's Italian and my father's half Italian, half German. So um, yeah, uh it was it was uh something we felt very clearly that the Lord was calling us to. Um we had a bit of the language and so we came.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, terrific.
SPEAKER_03Tell me about the church. So um it's called Chiesa Evangelica Neapolis. Uh, Neapolis is the old name for Naples, it's a Greek name for Naples, and it also happens to mean new community. So we thought, well, we'll we'll have that. Um so it's a church that was that was started um almost four years ago. We meet in the center of the city. Um on a Sunday evening. We meet on a Sunday evening, there's between 30 and 35 adults and children. It's a church that has a heart for the area that we meet in and for the student community. There's a massive student community in uh in central Naples. So we try and we we we partner with the student ministry um that's getting already, and we try and reach out to students as well.
SPEAKER_00Very good. Very good. And obviously things have gotten very serious for you um recently. Um did you did you have a kind of an uh-oh moment when you thought, okay, COVID-19 is is serious business? What was that like?
SPEAKER_03I think it I think it was two weeks today, actually, Glenn. It was um it was when so we we heard of it coming to Italy, as as many of us, I guess. We saw it on our screens first at the beginning of the year in in the Wuhan province of China, and we saw it move from there, and then we heard it coming to Italy, and then we read that Italy was actually the center in Europe of the outbreak, and we saw that um various areas in the kind of Lombardy region were being hit, and then and then all of a sudden the government, the Italian government, says like the whole region of Lombardia, which I think has 16 million inhabitants, is in lockdown. That's a red zone, and very quickly it went from that to the whole nation being in lockdown. And that happened last Tuesday. I remember waking up on Tuesday morning and seeing seeing the news and seeing that and and beginning to feel very much the impact of what that meant and and and beginning to work through, as many of us here are working through, what the implications of that were.
SPEAKER_02And and why what have the implications been for you then? Because I mean we see the images and we kind of hear you on lockdown, but in a sense, it's hard to know what that looks like on the ground there. So can you give us a sense of that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, sure. It's it's it's kind of a moving feast because every day or every other day, new new restrictions come out. So so initially, um two weeks ago, it was um most places were still open, most shops and restaurants and bars were still open, but with restricted hours. It was that you could go out and you could go out and and do exercise, you could go out um and and go for a walk, um, you could go out to the supermarket, not just on your own, but two people could go to the supermarket together, two people could be in a car together. Whereas now now we're very much at the point where most things are shut. Uh, restaurants, bars, everything's shut. You're not really allowed to go out just for a walk. Um, only one person at a time is allowed to go to the supermarket, no one's allowed to do exercise out of doors. Um, and so and you know, this morning there was a there's a police car driving up our street with a megaphone just saying you've got to stay in your homes. There's a real emphasis on trying to keep people in the homes. Lots of people have received fines that I read of on in the Italian news for not having, you have to have a form that you fill out saying this is why I'm out. Yes, for necessity, whether it's medical or work or or food. Um, and things are really, really tightened up.
SPEAKER_00Is there is there a lot of people breaking curfew? Are there uh is is there kind of a rebellion against that?
SPEAKER_03Uh you know, that's that's hard to tell me because I can't get out. I mean, I I'm what I read in the newspapers is there are there are people being fined for being out. I think there's a very real sense that we have to pull together. Uh so there's a hashtag that's that's doing around Zioresto a casa, I'll stay at home. Um, and there's a real sense that we've got to beat this together by staying at home. The problem is, I mean, speaking of Naples, um, Naples is a you know, it's a sunny place, Mediterranean city where people live their lives on the streets. Many people live in small flats, uh, normally where they they eat and sleep and spend the rest of their time out on the streets interacting with each other. And now they're closed in. And that, and that I can't really get that is very hard for a Neapolitan in a sense to to withstand.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And do you have sorry? I was gonna say, do you have much contact with anyone at all then? I mean, because we've seen pictures of people singing on the balconies and things.
SPEAKER_03I mean, yeah, yeah. So we did we did that two Fridays ago. Um, I mean, that that's one of the nice things, is that so obviously we have a lot of contact with people virtually, um, thinking of people in our church and outside of our church. Um, in terms of us here, yes, we can we we see each other. What's one of the nice things of being in a flat or in a block of flats so we can see each other? We've got a balcony, we can see each other from the other balcony, we talk to each other from balconies. But um, but in terms of physical contact, it's it's very limited, it's it's all virtually now.
SPEAKER_00So, what's what's that like? I mean, uh obviously you are um there together as a family.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, how how many children do you you have? So I've got I've got four children. So I've got two two teenage daughters, um, and then another daughter and and a son. Okay. How old's your youngest? So Archie is uh Archie's nine years old. And so what and so what we're doing now, what we're trying to juggle now is is virtual school lessons. So not only do we find ourselves kind of under one roof, um rubbing along next to each other with all the kind of joys and tensions that that can bring, we're also trying to help our children engage virtually with their with their teachers. And you can imagine all sorts of things are happening. Uh you know, as the teachers are trying to um ask the children questions. If the children don't know, they pretend to freeze. Or, you know, some of these poor teachers don't know how to quite use Zoom or and so you know the audio's not on and they can hear but they can't. And the children are being because obviously the children are far better technologically, so they're taking photos, still photos of the teachers whilst they're trying to teach us chaos. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And how do you stay sane as a family then?
SPEAKER_03Well, Glenn, I'll tell you if if we get out of this in in one piece. Uh so the answer is uh I'm you know, God, God's grace, God's grace. I think um that's one of the main things that we're having to learn. Just the importance of um saying sorry, recognizing that we're not perfect, and and seeking to forgive as quickly as possible. And just that whole that whole verse, love covers a multitude of sins. We love each other as a family, but inevitably put us all in, you know, yeah, we don't have a garden to go out to, we've got a balcony, we don't have a garden, you know, we're all it's it is quite intense. Um but we love each other, and and so we're seeking to we're seeking to um to live that out. We've we've created little spaces and in uh all of our children share bedrooms, so they've now each got little workstations. We've got two relatively big cupboards, so two of them are in the club, and that's that's their kind of workstation. So we're just trying to create personal space creatively within within our homes.
SPEAKER_00I too am trying to create some uh personal space creatively, as you as you might be able to tell.
SPEAKER_03Yes, exactly. It works for me, it works for me. I've not thought of getting into the car, but I might do that again.
SPEAKER_00Well that it might not even be allowed, you might yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's literally just downstairs. I think I could probably do it.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but not drive, but I wouldn't be able to drive anywhere, no.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_02And do you have any uh uh sense from your end? Uh uh do you have any sense from the authorities as to how long kind of this might last? Like how because you're in quite extreme measures at the moment.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so we've we've um certainly over the last two days, there seems to have been an encouraging decrease in the number of people um contaminated in the number of deaths here in Italy. So it's it's still a lot of people being contaminated, it's a lot of cases and a lot of people dying, but it's it's slowly over the last two days decreasing. But no one's really got any idea, Paul. Right. No one has any idea. You know, they talk about well, we're just maybe we're coming to the peak, but how you know, is it how on earth do you know when the peak is? Um and and so I think I think here originally it was going to be we're gonna be like this with until the 15th of March, then it was until the 3rd of April, and now people are talking um the the end of April, 30th of April. But I I get the sense that people really, you know, that's one of the hard things about this situation is what it what is the exit strategy? And and when these restrictions are lifted, what does that mean? What does life look like then?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well you someone's commented on the uh the top chat and just said to yourself, Mark, what do you think have been the challenges of using virtual contact over a longer period of time as a church? And so it'd be good to hear a bit about kind of how the church has been responding to that and the challenges you face to it, or even the encouragements.
SPEAKER_03I think um I think that's a really good question because none of us have done this before. I mean, we we as a church, we use the internet, we had we've got a YouTube channel and a Facebook page and all that kind of thing, but we've never ever done a live, a live service, as it were, until two weeks ago. Um, so so as as a church, we've we've quickly you know switched into that. Um it was two weeks last Tuesday, we were in lockdown. Tuesday evening we had our first kind of live streaming um Bible meditation. So we have something every every day apart from Saturday and then the Sunday service. I think um it's it's it it one of the one of the positives is that people seem to be seeing each other much more virtually. People sense that that lack of contact. And so within the church, a kind of video calling each other and and and chatting with each other, and so there's a there's a closeness, um, a greater closeness as a result of that. Um also what we've seen is people engaging with us as a church more than before, which has been encouraging. So I wonder whether people are asking hard questions, people have more time on their hands, um, people are obviously struck by what's happening and asking questions. And so people are um friends of ours, perhaps non-Christian friends of ours, uh or contacts that we have are watching our our Bible meditations in the evening or are watching our Sunday service. So we're encouraged by that. Um I mean, what what are the implications? We we we do the Lord's Supper virtually. What does that what does that feel like? Um what does that actually look like? Well, what it what it looks like is me um with with a telling everyone before we um before we meet to make sure you've got some a cup with some wine and some bread, um, and we're wanting to express our union. That's one of the interesting things, isn't it? We're we're united in Christ, and that isn't that is a physical thing, but it's not a physical proximity thing. It's a belief and a reality, a spiritual reality. So even if we're physically not present, we are united in Christ. So so as we come together in our in our Zoom um church service, as we sing together, as we pray together, as we sit under God's word together, as we eat the bread and drink the wine together, all in physically different places, we're expressing a spiritual reality that transcends the physical reality. And I guess we're getting our head around that.
SPEAKER_00So that's the way you're doing it. You you have Zoom, you're kind of narrowcasting to well, so so we're trying we're trying to do both then.
SPEAKER_03We're absolutely no not experts, but we're trying to do um on a Sunday evening, Zoom to have that sense of intimacy. We're seeing each other, praying and listening to each other's praise and seeing each other sing, but also streaming it live to the Facebook page so that we can broadcast it further afield.
SPEAKER_00And have you noticed that that perhaps some others are uh are tuning in that that wouldn't ordinarily come through the doors?
SPEAKER_03Absolutely, absolutely, and not just people that wouldn't it's it's people uh throughout the whole of Italy, not not big numbers, but people that we know enough friends or relatives in northern Italy that wouldn't physically ever be able to come to church and listen to me or or Francesco or my co-pastor preach are now doing that.
SPEAKER_00What's tell tell tell me about the fear? Um, because that that must be very real. I mean, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people dying every day in Italy. Um, you're a little bit distanced from it in the south, I I I guess, but but the that fear must be tangible.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. I mean, we live in so central Naples has one million inhabitants in crammed in some of the most densely populated areas in Europe. So so if it really hits here, um, you know, there are many great um nurses and doctors working in the hospitals of Naples, but the hospitals generally down south in southern Italy are underresourced, um, both with equipment and supplies. If if if it if it really hits here and takes a grip here, we we really are in big trouble. And so so I think uh I think fear is is a very real, I think fear is more contagious than the coronavirus, I think. And and we and we see that, and we and and you can feel the tension in the air. Um people in Naples are normally very friendly and open and and physical with each other. Uh the concept of personal space doesn't really exist down here, and yet now um people are crossing over onto the other side of the road to make sure they didn't go anywhere near the other person. People are people are a bit kind of suspicious or not wanting to say hello to you, even. Whereas in Naples it's very normal to say hello to someone in the street. Um, so there's a real dead weight fear um and suspicion that we feel. And you know, it's it results in people having arguments, a number of arguments, just in our in our in our block of flats, as um, you know, somebody shouting from a balcony to someone else who shouldn't be down there at one point, or just gradually these things flaring up.
SPEAKER_02And has that sort of uh that kind of fear and that sense in the air has that influenced at all the kind of things you're saying as a church? I mean, just think about here. I think there are some churches who, in many ways, are just carrying on, you know, like we're doing a series on whatever, so we'll carry on doing a series on whatever, business as usual. Other churches, I think, are saying, hey, we should talk about this because there's different people looking in. Is it kind of influencing what you're talking about at all?
SPEAKER_03Yes, yeah, absolutely, Paul. I think so. We we've started these um Monday, Wednesday, uh Friday evening, we're doing a series of um just kind of Bible meditations live onto the Facebook page. And one of the first ones that we did two weeks ago was on fear. Um, and was just, you know, there's that response that you know, an article I wrote speaking about how we respond with faith, not fear. Um, and just how often in in the gospels you see the disciples or other people responding with fear, and Jesus saying, No, you've got to trust, you've got to believe. And in a sense, um the antidote to fear is is both faith, but it's also a greater fear in the Lord. Um I I was reading John T. Alcock's book in Impossible Commands, and he writes a chapter on that, and that was really helpful. Just if I fear the Lord of the heavens and the earth and and trust him, that that helps me as I'm tempted to fear the things that are that are in this world. And I think I think it gives us a unique opportunity as Christians to live that out.
SPEAKER_00Do you see at uh at the moment any opportunities, greater opportunities in the middle of this crisis, any silver linings? What what what what are the positives?
SPEAKER_03Well, I guess um so I was thinking about that. I think I think any any form of suffering, um, the Bible seems to speak of it having a refining effect, doesn't it? On our faith. Um I think it it both authenticates faith and it um and it refines faith. So so down in southern Italy, there's a lot of formal, superficial religious faith. Um and I imagine this kind of situation really really makes it very clear who actually believes and who doesn't believe, what is what is true faith. And it also refines your faith. It strips away, it strips away any any um any dross and and and God willing makes it glow much brighter. And I think I think I feel that's happening. I feel that's happening in me personally, I feel that's happening in us as a church. Um, though you it it becomes relatively quick, relatively clear um who genuinely believes this and who's just been coming because that's part of their their routine. And I think we see that um, so we see people asking questions, as I've said. So as a church, we're gonna start next Monday evening a series of three talks. Is God punishing us? Why did God allow this? And will it really all turn out all right? Um and so we're going to um because people are those are the questions that people are asking. This is God's punishment, this is God's judgment on us. Yes. Um, and so we're wanting to we're wanting to try and speak into those questions and answer those questions.
SPEAKER_00So, what are those three again? What was what was number one?
SPEAKER_03So the the first one is is God punishing us? Is this God's justice? Is this God's judgment on us as a world? Yeah. Um the second one is um Can you give us any spoilers?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, tell us, tell us.
SPEAKER_03What are you gonna say? I'm actually I'm not doing the talks. But I think but I think it's an interesting question, isn't it? As I as I look at it, because there's the father-son relationship, isn't there? In one in, I think it's one Peter or Hebrews, where where God as a father disciplines his children, and that's a loving thing. And I think the word punish is even used in in Hebrews. I think it's Hebrews 12. Um so so you wonder whether there is a sense in which and we've got to be very careful what we say, haven't we? Um, but it there's a sense in which in in Western Europe, um, with all the materialism and all the distractions and all the wealth and all the pride that we've kind of amassed in uh in our generations, um we yeah, we we we feel as if we're in control, we feel as if we're um you know indestructible, we're not vulnerable. Um, you know, why do I need why do I need God? And that's obviously going to have influenced us within the church, isn't it? And I wonder whether this is this is a this is a massive thing that the Lord has sent our way. It's not a war, it's not a war situation, isn't it? But politicians and people are kind of speaking in those terms um to to remind us of our of our need for him and to humble us and to bring us to our knees. Um and so I wonder whether also, I've I've not quite matured this thought, but I wonder whether there's a sense in which we need to be we need to be confessing and humbling ourselves before the Lord at the moment. Um and and perhaps as church leaders we need to be leading people in this and just saying, you know, Lord, we are we are sinners. We are sinners. Thank you for reminding us of this, thank you for bringing us to the to the cross. And then and then obviously recognizing that the punishment is is placed on Jesus' shoulders and we're free as a result of that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It's been striking for me going back, and and uh Paul and I did uh an episode looking back at uh times in history when the churches responded to plagues. And um reading Luther's counsel is fascinating because you know, he here is a man um who wants to preach the gospel of Christ alone and faith alone and those sort of things, but um very, very clear about the plague being a judgment from God. And one of the considerations is he's telling people, you know, should you stay or should you go? Should you flee the plague or should you stay and remain? And and he he basically says, if you don't have any people you need to care for, then get out of dodge. Um but uh he said, you know, even if there's no particular reason to leave, you might even choose to stay in Wittenberg as the as the plague hits because you might bow the head to God's judgment. And that's you know, and just reading that at a at a distance of 500 years, it it feels like uh an alien concept. But to most of church history, that's been of course, normal, you know.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. And and and and going back even to the early church and the you know, plagues, famines, persecutions, it's it's normal, isn't it? Yeah, it's normal.
SPEAKER_00It's normal, and it's the way that God is bringing blessing as well. Absolutely. Because God grew his church through the early plagues, the second century, third century, and all that.
SPEAKER_03And perhaps that's the authentication and the refining side of things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I think I think that's right.
SPEAKER_03So my challenge, my what we're trying to work through is so virtually, we've we've got various responses uh as a church to the current situation. We're we're all you know, virtually, we're engaging as much as we can. What does it look like physically now to love our neighbors in a place where we're being encouraged to remain at home? Um so so one of the things, one of the things, uh you know, a phone number. We're gonna put a phone number, a couple of phone numbers out there. If people want to talk, if people are at home, if people are scared, ring this phone number and and we'd be happy to chat with you. That's a very simple thing. Um, and and another thing that we're trying we're trying to work through is I think, I think as I Understand it, Roman Catholic Church buildings are still open for people who want on an individual basis to come in for prayer. So we've been blessed with the use of an old Anglican um building in the center of Naples. And um we're still having to work out whether we're legally allowed to do this, whether the Anglican Church would be happy for us to do this, et cetera, et cetera. But the idea of getting that building open and for it being a place where people can come for prayer and possibly even use it as a place where we can start distributing basic food stuffs to people that are struggling financially or aren't able to get out or just working out can we, is there a way of responding physically in this in this situation?
SPEAKER_00Stupid question, Mark. But is stockpiling toilet roll as big a deal in Italy as it is in the UK? No.
SPEAKER_03No, it's not. It's not just I mean the whole the whole panic shopping hasn't hit here. I wonder whether I wonder whether that's because I mean, my wife and I, Jane and I have been thinking, you know, what's going on here? In Italy, the idea of doing a weekly shop in a big supermarket, certainly in Naples, isn't part of the culture. So people people do their shopping here on a daily basis, and they go, there are supermarkets in the center of Naples, but many people will go to their local fruit fruit seller, um, fish set that you know, um, fishmonger, uh, butchers. So, and and it's a daily thing as opposed to people panic buying. So, we we haven't seen that here.
SPEAKER_00Interesting, interesting. What was what was the what were the other two sermons that you're gonna do in your sermon series? Is God punishing us?
SPEAKER_03Uh why is God allowing this?
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03And then and then so one of the hashtags, one of the slogans that's being um sent around is andrà tutto bene. It will it'll all be alright. It'll all be alright. Right. So, you know, the the rainbow and and the children writing that. And so the question is, um, andrà veramente bene, or will it will it really all be alright? Question.
SPEAKER_02So just trying to speak into those three um and is that from an angle of that that that hashtag that's going round, is that kind of like a secular hashtag? If you know it's not a church one, necessarily. No, no, no, it's a secular, it's a secular hashtag. It's it's um yeah, go on. Oh, so I was just gonna say, you know, I suppose is there a sense there of pushing into saying, well, what's your basis for saying it will be all exactly right? You know, I suppose if if if you have nothing beyond, you know, your you know, this world, there's no guarantee it's gonna get any better than what it is. And this might really be the end for you, for us, who knows?
SPEAKER_03Exactly. It it is it is wanting to punch that bubble in in a sensitive and a loving way that points people to Christ and the genuine hope that we have in him. But really, you know, no, no, no, no politician or ch or or or cunt leader of a country is gonna be able to convince anyone that it really will, because there is no exit strategy. Yes, one day a vaccine will be developed, God willing, in 12 months' time, 18 months' time, but in the meantime, um, you know, and we might get this thing under control, um, but but then what you know, what's gonna stop it from rearing its head again at in the winter or or whenever, you know, yeah, exactly. On what basis do you make that statement?
SPEAKER_00And I think that was a really excellent point that you started your article with. So um you wrote an article that then got picked up by the Gospel Coalition, uh, I guess was that a couple of weeks ago? March 11th.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Eight things the coronavirus should teach us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'll pop that in the top chat as well for people to have a look at.
SPEAKER_00Terrific. Yeah. And you you talk about these eight things, and uh and the first thing you mentioned is it teaches us our fragility. Uh tell us how, you know, what what were you thinking about when you think about the fragility that's being exposed?
SPEAKER_03I I was thinking, you know, I I grew up in Southeast England, um went to a grammar school, educated at a university, went off and joined the military, and and we're trained and taught that that we can do anything we want to do. Uh, you know, we're we can be self-made men, women, we're we're invincible, oh, we're strong, you know, and and um that that's complete rubbish, isn't it? That's complete rubbish. The older I get, the more I realise that. And and and and sadly, it takes a pandemic to teach us that, doesn't it? That we are, and the Bible's very clear. You're you're like, you know, maybe you are glorious for a day, like like flowers in the field, but but sooner or later a wind or a virus comes along and you're blown away and and you're nothing, you're fragile. Um, and I was just really struck by that. I was really struck by um the reality that is being pressed in on us now, um, that is a reality that the Bible speaks very clearly of.
SPEAKER_02And it's an interesting thing, that fragility as well, isn't it? Because it's for us in the West, we're not used to that at all. Whereas for some people in the world, even today, it is like that a lot of the time. And for the majority of history, it's been like that for most of humankind. So we're in a very uniquely privileged position. And I think my hope with it is that I think that all the danger is that people will look at this moment and say, hey, we don't have the security of our health or our jobs at the moment. Um, but when the virus goes away, yeah, it'll be okay. And I think what I hope is that people will see that actually, even when the virus goes away, those things are just as fragile then as they are now. It's just a lot more obvious now. Um so yeah, it's uh I I'm hoping that there will be that kind of long-term benefit off the back of this, if you can use that kind of phrase.
SPEAKER_03I think or blessing in a sense, yeah, yeah. Because the psalmist says, Teach me, give me a heart of wisdom that I may number my days. So that's a wise stance, isn't it? Being able to recognize that I'm I'm not eternal, I'm not invincible.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we're certainly not very aware of our own mortality very much here in the West. No, I agree.
SPEAKER_00You could you could do an impression of me by now, Paul, can't you? In your article, uh, Mark, you you say, and it's a point that I hadn't really considered, that that's you know, think about it. I mean, COVID-19 could be a lot worse, actually. Um, you know, if if the fatality rate or if the the the rate at which it spreads was just a few percent higher, um we'd have no hope, you know.
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, so what what what makes us think we're so strong? Um uh your point number two is our equality. Uh, how does coronavirus teach us our equality?
SPEAKER_03So that was the point that um we we we met as a church and and prayed, uh I think it was three weeks ago as I was writing this article, and someone someone in the church uh and I asked the question to to the guys, what is what are we learning from this? And one of the guys responded, I think I've learned that basically we're all Chinese, aren't we? In in that um, we're we're all part of the human race. We're all um made in God's image. We we all um you know get get infections, get flu, get get ill, get sick, and die. And and and so again, coronavirus is is a great leveler, isn't it? Initially, it starts off as something miles away on the other side of the world that we that we we watch on our television screens and think, wow, that just it's quite hard to discern between that and some kind of apocalyptic film that we're watching, isn't it? The scenes in Wuhan and I am legend. And and and then slowly but surely that thing comes closer and closer and closer, and and we're living in it. Um and we recognize actually that although people speak in different languages, I mean, this is one of the privileges of of working in another culture. Um, although people speak in different languages and have have different skin colors, and we're all the same. We're all the same.
SPEAKER_02You're on mute again, Glenn.
SPEAKER_03I thought you were the expert at this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know. I'm on I'm on mute because my my laptop is on overdrive trying to cool itself down. The reason it's trying to cool itself down is that my computer is on the dashboard and the sun is streaming through.
SPEAKER_02You need to open the window crack, Glenn.
SPEAKER_00You know, I do, I do.
SPEAKER_02I'm loving that sun in England.
SPEAKER_03That's great news.
SPEAKER_00There is sun in England, yes. There's a there's a greenhouse effect, but you need to be in a car in direct sunlight to get it. There's a terrific, uh, there's a terrific meme that I just saw today, and uh and it said English weather when we're not in lockdown, and it had all the floods, and then English weather when we're in lockdown, and it's just blazing sunshine.
SPEAKER_03It's the bank holiday principle, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, totally, totally. And alongside the equality, I think there is the solidarity, isn't there? That we're we're all standing or falling together, we're all going in lockdown together. You know, the human race is in the same mortal boat together, and that that boat is leaking.
SPEAKER_03And it's been wonderful to see that expressed. So we've had Chinese Christians praying for Italy and praying for churches in Italy and sending over supplies to Italy. We've had American Christians sending, as I understand it, an American, I think it's Samaritan's Perth, send a massive inflatable hospital um up to northern Italy to try and to try and you know bless and give to the community up there. So it's been wonderful seeing um that solidarity expressed in in in practice.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Uh point number three in your article, our loss of control. Talk to me about that.
SPEAKER_03Well, we've spoken a bit about it, haven't we? This sense that we're in control. In many respects, we can control our lives now. We're, you know, if with an app on our on our phone, we can control the temperature remotely of our of our home, we can check whether the lights are on, we've got a CCTV, cameras, we can do all of the medical tests you want to have a good idea of whether there's anything growing in your body or not. We we have a level of control, but I wonder whether that level of control ultimately is a bit of an illusion and the coronavirus has popped that bubble and shown us. And that's very painful, isn't it? We love control. It's interesting that um what what's one of the first things that people have done that we've done as we've gone into lockdown? As families, we've we've written up a timetable, haven't we? We've got to write a timetable, we've got to structure our lives. I need control and I need some new normal, which is a new routine. So I can control what's going on. You will be doing homework from this time to this time, exercise from this time. And look, I you know, I'm an I'm an ex-military guy, I love that sort of thing. But but we've got to be quite careful, haven't we? That that again, we're not building up this. We're not in control, we're not in control. No, we're really not in control. James is very clear. Uh, you know, here in Italy, we've had to cancel loads of things, loads of things that we were planning to do. Everything, you know, and that's that's that everywhere across the world where left, right, and centre things are being cancelled because we're not in control.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Olympics is yeah, being put off to 2021. Um, number four, you say the pain we share in being excluded.
SPEAKER_03That was I I wrote that paragraph just off the back of um a couple of experiences. The um the the the the stigma that gets attached to someone who back in this we're talking two and a half weeks ago now in Naples, there was a um a restaurant owner who had uh been tested positive. And and he said, um, actually, the the hardest thing for me wasn't the result that said I had coronavirus, and I'm now I'm feeling um as if I've got a you know a heavy flu and I'm feeling uh struggling to breathe, but uh is actually the stigma and the fact that the whole of the block of flax and the street are kind of pointing at me. And you know, that idea that um another friend from church had a similar thing. She was uh, you know, she'd been to the northern Italy and then come south, and and people were you know keeping their distance and staying away from her. And that is that I guess that I wrote in the article, it's the experience of the leper in Jesus' day, isn't it? Walking around unclean, unclean, excluded. And that and that is, you know, we're born, no man is an island. We're born, aren't we, to to relate to each other, to to be in communities, to have to have that closeness and intimacy and take that away and and what's left.
SPEAKER_00It's very painful. Yeah, yeah. And I think we'll pay a heavy toll in in mental health. I yeah. Have you got any sense of that sort of in in Italy, day 15 of lockdown? How's people's mental health kind of holding up?
SPEAKER_03I think one of the interesting things is mental health is something that in the UK we're much, much more aware of than in Italy. Um I'm not quite sure why that is. I wonder whether it's because the family, I don't know, I don't know why that is, whether it's a family unit that isn't still very strong in in the South. But I think I think I think you're right, Glenn. I think um depression, um, domestic violence, um divorce, uh uh all of those things, people cooped up under the same roof, especially as I said, in a place like Naples where people are not used to spending so much time together in the home, I think is going to have significant effects on so lockdown fatigue, what does that mean? Define that. Um we're going to be finding out. And so I think you know, the idea of having a telephone number, a helpline ring, ring if you need someone to talk to, let's see how that goes. I imagine there'll be take up for it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I'm reminded of Blaise Pascal, you know, in his pensees, he's he says, um, uh, all of man's troubles can be traced to one fact. He cannot stay in his room by himself. Yeah, yeah, being left to ourselves. This is why we create diversions. And, you know, Pascal, writing in the 17th century, said, you know, there were diversions back then. How many more diversions do we have now to distract us from our mortality? And that was that was what Pascal said. You know, we're constantly trying to distract ourselves from our mortality. So we've got this double whammy. Here comes our mortality, it's coming at us like a tsunami, and you've got to stay in your room quietly by yourself.
SPEAKER_03It's like and that will break people, won't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, there's been talk over here. So initially, when when the government here wasn't responding particularly fast, some people were saying, Oh, the government's only thinking about economic factors and not about lives. And a few people kind of made the point that actually even the economic factors will have a knock-on effect. If people, people who will lose their jobs will put pressure on families and relationships will break down, children will be left without parents, you know, all kinds of things. And I wonder whether that's some of the knock-on. There'll be those mental health issues whilst people are in isolation, but that will maybe roll on past the end of isolation. The pressures that families face now will roll on past isolation, and it may have, you know, far more kind of knock-on effects than we're really even aware of at the moment. So exactly. Who knows what the collateral damage is going to be?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. You can kind of graph the number of cases and the number of deaths, and you can sort of have an epidemiologist look at that. But yeah, all these secondary effects uh are gonna take decades to kind of work out. Yep. Um, Mark number five, you say uh this time will teach us the difference between fear and faith.
SPEAKER_03So I guess we we've took we talked about that just before, and we would it what does it look like in this situation as a Christian, as a follower of the Lord Jesus, to respond with faith? Um it's not wrong to be afraid of dying. I don't think it's wrong to be afraid of dying. Death is an enemy, it's an enemy that the Lord Jesus has destroyed on the cross, uh and we have hope beyond death. But um, it's not wrong to fear for our children's health, um, our wives, our parents, it's not wrong to, but I wonder whether um, as Christians, we can speak into this very clearly and and speak of speak of faith um and trust in a sure and certain hope that goes beyond these things. Um, and and and that idea that we can, if we fear the maker of the heavens and the earth, if we have a greater fear of the Lord than the fear that we have of being infected by the coronavirus, that also will enable us to um to remain joyful in the midst of these trials because we hope. Uh, and it'll enable us to live distinctively as we as we think of our neighbors, uh, as we think of the many non-Christians uh that are listening perhaps now or that are that are around us.
SPEAKER_00Very good. Uh number six, this will uh remind us of our need of God and our need to pray.
SPEAKER_03I think I think it's interesting. Many of us are finding ourselves um we're in our homes, we're on our own, uh, we're physically being encouraged not to not to leave. You know, what can I do? Is it anything I can what you know? I'm I'm such a small cog and a massive machine. Even the politicians, the men with the women with influence and power are struggling to come up with ideas and struggling to control this thing. What can I do? And I think the great reminder of the Bible is that we can pray. What a privilege. We can we can speak to our Father, our Heavenly Father, and we can um pray, and there is real power in that. So I think this is teaching us. Look, we need God now. Only He can, only He can act and do something in this situation um of any real consequence and meaning. Lord, please guide our politicians, guide our government, please protect us, please provide for your people. Um, that's I think that's that's what we can do that, and we must be doing that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I'm very struck in in Matthew chapter six, Jesus says, uh, go into your room, shut the door. Yes, yes. And we're doing that. We're halfway there. We're halfway there.
SPEAKER_02We need to be living on a prayer. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00We're all of a certain age that we we get that reference. Yeah, we're halfway there. We're living on the prayer. Yeah, so we've we've gone into our room, we've we've we've closed the door. Um, but yeah, are are we uh praying to our father who's unseen uh and our father who sees what he's done in secret will reward us. Yeah. Um when you can't do anything else. What what a great school teacher.
SPEAKER_02Um I think as well, we're gonna see people praying. I mean, it certainly reminds us in the church to pray, but I think we've we've often taught Glenn and I about people, um people who you speak to who wouldn't call themselves Christian or religious. If you ask them, do you pray? You know, they they're gonna say, Oh yeah. And I think that we'll see a lot of that as well. And yes, you know, I think people will be seeing maybe answers to that. And yeah, I'm always reminded of Glenn's phrase that he uses often at um uh mission weeks, you know, and he says, Why don't you why don't you just throw up a prayer? You know, if there's no one there, you've not lost anything, but if there is, well, you know, who knows? And maybe that's a even that's a simple thing in this time. Yeah, be saying to our friends, look, well, why don't you pray and who knows, you know, whatever you've got to lose? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Let's do a webinar. Okay, let's do a I mean, now is the time for webinars, right?
SPEAKER_03Yes, literally listening. We're actually going to be billing our three talks as webinars. I've no idea what a webinar is.
SPEAKER_00It's a horrible portmanteau word, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. But yeah, why don't we do that? Yeah, how to how to pray, yeah, throw a bit of money behind it on Facebook, get some Facebook advertising out there. Who knows?
SPEAKER_03Someone read there's an art, there's an article on the Gospel Coalition website on prayer and how to pray in a time of pandemic.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, interestingly, one of the things uh that someone uh on on our kind of leadership team had uh messaged about was talking about we're probably all instinctively praying protection on friends and family and things, and absolutely great things to be praying. Um, but maybe one of the things that we as the church, uh the wider church, should be praying is is that bigger prayer of you know, Lord, might this be revival? Might you be using this, you know, and and absolutely seeing that as a uh something to be praying for, even though that might seem like a a crazy big prayer, yep. You know, God's kind of in the business of crazy big answers as well.
SPEAKER_00So Well you feel like something's got to be shifted in the West, doesn't it? You know, um that you know the the gospel is going forward at a great rate in places like China, um, but not not so much in the West. What is it that's gonna shake us from our complacency? And we do have uh this false god called Mammon. And you know, health and wealth are these two things that we lean on. And you know, there's there's this chance, isn't there? With that stripped away, when the the foundations are revealed as sand and when the storm hits, um, might we see people flocking to the rock? I think that's the that's my big prayer. Um number seven, you say, Mark, uh uh this time can reveal to us the vanity of so much of our lives. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's that's the word in Ecclesiastes, isn't it? That um that word that means vapor, substance less. Um, you know, there's nothing there, there's nothing there. Um, you know, we uh we fill our lives with so much, don't we? We um just my study is filled with you know things um that that at the end of the day um mean mean nothing before before before your life, before your death. What what does your life consist of? Come on, what does it really consist of? Um and I think I think it reveals that.
SPEAKER_02I think that's one of the things that it again might be hard for some people to get their head around at the moment. People are being told, you know, unless you're an essential worker, that kind of and and there's vast swathes of the population that are suddenly going, oh you know, I'm not really needed. What do I mean?
SPEAKER_01What do I mean?
SPEAKER_00I format spreadsheets, is that a state job? Yeah, we all are, though, aren't we? We're all yes, we we think we we we think we need to be needed, but uh we're not needed, we're not necessary at all. We're we're loved, but we're not necessary. Um but yes, the vanity of so much of our lives. And then finally, your your eighth point is uh might this time teach us our hope? How might this time teach us our hope, Mark?
SPEAKER_03Well, I really the eighth point is is summarizes the reality of our situation. That the main issue before us isn't so much the the pandemic that is hitting us with the coronavirus, it's the fact that our our world is is gripped by a a virus that that goes far deeper into our lives and has far greater consequences. That virus is sin. Um sin that is is in every one of us, each one of us is contaminated with this. Um sin that results in certain death. There's no antidote, there's no escaping it and it's not just death but it's eternal death and and so i'm wanting i'm praying that people would would would would engage with that as we as we encounter as we work through those seven issues that people would recognize who um who steps down into this world um who comes into a world that is is racked with sin and suffering and uh and uh is is sick and diseased and and contaminated and that he uh that they would see that he he came down he didn't stay at home as we're all being encouraged to do he didn't say he came he didn't maintain his distances he was the only person who wasn't contaminated didn't maintain his distances no social distancing he touched he ate he breathed the same breath uh the same air and and and he bore that uh that sickness that virus um as he was contaminated and died for each one of us that is that is a very precious truth and and and perhaps it is it is a truth that will become precious for many people I pray that it would um at this time he he is our sure and certain hope um yeah yeah yeah through the storm there is a rock and uh and he will still be standing and and we on him yeah Mark where do you think you know when we're kind of hope 18 months down the line um what what do you hope you'll be able we'll be able to say about this situation kind of down the line there um I I pray that we'd be able to say that it taught us more of what it meant to cling to the Lord um there's there's a verse uh as I've been reading the Psalms uh each morning the Psalms seem to be shouting at me at the moment um it's it's um I read Psalm 63 the other day I cling to you your right hand upholds me um I don't I don't think I've ever really understood what it means to cling to the Lord um to really really cling to him and to recognize him as being you know we've spoken of a rock imagine you're in the sea and you're being buffeted around and there's a rock and you're and you're clinging for your dear life to that rock I think that's what David is talking about in this psalm as he's he's in the desert perhaps running for his life fearing for his death he's clinging to the Lord and the amazing thing is it says um your right hand upholds me as we cling to him he upholds us and I'd pray that we'd be able to look back in 18 months time um and and see that actually this this has taught us and many others um the importance of clinging to the Lord through this and as we've done that we've seen his right hand uphold us that's a great image I've never I've never I've never really thought about that that idea when you think about clinging to the Lord it it feels very much on yourself doesn't it you know it's it's on me to hold on nice and tight but that idea of being upheld beneath even that is yeah that's really helpful.
SPEAKER_00Your right hand holds me fast yeah and his his eternal arms are underneath us aren't they as we cling to him yeah yeah yeah it's kind of like in the the leaving and cleaving of of Genesis 2 you know man shall leave his father and mother be joined to his wife and the two she become and he shall cleave to his wife yes and it's fascinating that in Genesis 2 it's put that way because usually it's the it's the bride who walks down the aisle towards the husband not the husband who leaves and is handed over to the bride but it's put that way because Christ the ultimate bridegroom he's the one who cleaves to us and his love is is the the truly determinative love. Yes and yes we might cling to him with greater or lesser urgency. Yeah uh but he his right hand holds us fast he cleaves to us yeah yeah anything else on top chat uh Paul how how are things going in top chat uh not a huge amount of questions actually uh people are chipping in and stuff people finding it a helpful discussion many people uh really struggling to work out whether you're actually in a car or whether you're using a virtual background you know it's a lot of chat about that so I've gone to a lot of effort to make it appear like we did have uh I mean Kim Warren has commented and said my worst fear is we all ends end up going back to how we were before if the plague passes I'm fervently praying that we don't I include myself in this not just point my finger I think you know we we had talked about this I think in previous weeks maybe even just around the office my my view of human nature is quite low and so I I'm yeah I was saying I imagine when this all blows over people will have very short memories um and that may well be the case but it may be that this period and even a short period afterwards or however long there's an opportunity there where we do see a bit of an explosion of maybe church growth through that I don't know but I mean it'd be interesting you know we're all looking at China aren't we to see what you know what's happened medically in China um I've heard I've heard stories of people being able to set up Christianity explored crosses virtually with with Chinese um folk in Wuhan other Chinese believers into I it'd be interesting to see what what happens to the church in in the Wuhan province what happens there yeah yeah and whether that gives us an indication of yeah yeah yeah very good in a second Mark I'm gonna ask you how people can um keep up with you and perhaps if they uh even want to support you by prayer or that sort of thing um you can let us know um your details but for those who are watching uh later this week uh we are releasing a whole bunch of different videos uh including tutorials in uh how you can use technology to broadcast church around the place we're being asked left right and center for people uh to to give help with the tech that you might need the setup that you might need how to speak in front of the camera what platforms to use how do you go live streaming all those sorts of questions uh we've got tutorials coming for you we've got webinars coming for it for you uh we've got more interviews with other church leaders uh on those issues about uh broadcasting and making the most of this opportunity on Thursday I'm looking very much forward to uh a conversation with Rico Tice and others from Christianity Explored and Jeremy Marshall uh from Word 121 and we're gonna talk about uh ways of reaching out uh during this time of pandemic because it's a crisis but it's also an opportunity so stay tuned for that uh that'll be on Thursday at 1030 in the morning that'll be uh uh another uh live chat that you can get um do like us do subscribe to our channel click the bell and you'll be uh made known uh made aware of all these different videos that are coming up for you also loads of Easter videos that are coming up for you we've got three great videos uh that you can share around the place usually we say that you can play in services on Easter Sunday or share on social media but uh let's let's do twice as much sharing shall we on social media and get the great news of uh of Easter out there as people are facing their own mortality. And if anyone wants to give towards the work of Speak Life that would be very much appreciated. We we live off the generosity of uh viewers and supporters like yourselves so speaklife.org.uk slash give is the place to go. But Mark if people want to catch up with uh with you and your church and uh all that you're doing where where can they go?
SPEAKER_03Well first of all I'd like to say thank you thank you very much to all the people that have been praying and are praying for us here in Italy for us as a family for us as a church it's been we we it's it's it's a humbling thing to know that many people are praying for us. We're not special um but it but we really appreciate those prayers and we feel the effect of those prayers. We're crosslinks missionaries as as Glenn said so um our prayer letters are posted on the crosslinks um website you can you can write to crosslinks and ask to be added to the um distribution list but as a church we've got a church website we've got a church Facebook page and uh both the website and the Facebook page are C E Neapolis so C-E-N-E-A-P-O L I S C-E Neapolis um do both please follow us and please please pray for us as we're praying for you wonderful thank you so much Mark and uh yeah we'll we will stay tuned to what things uh are are like in Italy and uh we'll pray for you you can pray for us thank you thank you very much thanks very much thanks very much for joining us on the top chat keep those conversations going uh on comments underneath and uh we'll see you see you tomorrow with yet another video at this time so God bless everybody and see you later