In cover that we have to say hello to the people to people to it's really exciting for all of us because we've got Jackie Lem, all the way beaming in from Hong Kong. Say hello to the people, Jackie Lem.
SPEAKER_01Hello, people. Nice to see you online.
SPEAKER_02Terrific. So you you are you are in Hong Kong right now, and that that's where you've been living for quite some time, is that right?
SPEAKER_01That's right. I've been living in Hong Kong for a number of years. Uh I I spent uh much of my education in England, uh, but I came back and I've been here for a good 10 10 or so years now. Terrific, terrific.
SPEAKER_02So Stephanie, um we're thinking in this uh episode about uh uh coronavirus and how Christians can be responding uh in a time of pay, in a time of estimates. You know, it it sounds like uh you know an ancient kind of struggle, um, but actually it's it's very important, it's very relevant right now. And you guys are ahead of us there in Hong Kong, and uh you've also got some some good links with churches across in the mainland, and we'd love to talk to you about that. Uh but first of all, Jackie, could could you just um let us know a little bit of your own Christian story? Uh why are you the Christian that you are today?
SPEAKER_01Why am I the Christian I am today? Uh well uh to cut a long story short, um I I'm I'm not actually from a Christian family, and uh many um Chinese people uh don't have a Christian upbringing. So I'm just one of that statistic. Um but I was blessed to go to an Anglican school when I spent my time in um in England, and so I was um witnessed to by uh many good friends, and over uh much haggling and much uh tooing and froing and much of my rejection of their many invitations to fellowships, eventually I buckled in and I went to one of them and I found it uh very, very interesting. And over the years, I think, um, throughout boarding school and then in university in London, um, I embraced uh the faith, um, having spent a lot of time with good Christian friends, and they they really witnessed well to me. And I think for me, a lot of it wasn't just um the uh intellectual aspect, but much of how they lived their life. Uh and so for me, that's that's my journey. And then when I came back to Hong Kong, I was very happy to see that the uh church environment, um, I wouldn't say it was thriving. Um, at the time, I think there were perhaps about 5% uh Christian in Hong Kong, now maybe about 10 to 15 percent, although the official probably didn't say much. Um, but then uh yeah, and and I I've been very blessed to be surrounded by some good Christian uh brothers and sisters since coming back here and laying roots here.
SPEAKER_02So are you telling us that the church has doubled in size in the last 10 years?
SPEAKER_01I would say that the statistic that I was uh faced with when I came back, it wasn't very flattering because that the statistic was uh both, I mean, it's it's all Christian, meaning Catholic and Protestant and every denomination. Um, but now definitely uh at least a few years ago, it was uh it was more than 10%. So it's been a good increase.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing. What do you what do you put that yeah? I was gonna say, what's I was gonna say, what's what what what accounts for that?
SPEAKER_01What uh honestly, it's it's very difficult to pinpoint whether there was like a catalyst. Um one can tell even just just by attending the local churches that the congregations have increased in size. So the old church that I used to attend, um, I've I now moved on to a a local, a smaller church, but the the church that I attended when I first came back to Hong Kong had maybe uh thousand to one thousand five hundred people. That's one of the biggest, biggest English-speaking congregations at the time, as now more than doubled in size, uh, just that church alone. So now that church started with two two church services on Sunday, has now increased to five church services on Sunday, um, which is a huge undertaking. And they have they have now hired a lot more pastors just to basically pastor the flock. Um, so we're now facing three, four thousand in that church alone.
SPEAKER_02Have you been doing anything different? It's just it's just you've been preaching the gospel and the spirit's been doing his thing. What's what's Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01I mean, uh it's very interesting because in Hong Kong, and I think that's the issue with most Asian churches, is that you the type of crowd that you face is um a lot of people just want to know how to be a good Christian. Um, and so what that means, of course, you end up changing a lot of people's behavior. Um, and so it's more an issue of dealing with people's heart um than so much about behavior. So you you deal with a lot more of the elder brother mentality in the Protocol Sun story. Um, and it's more about bringing people back away from that and more towards just abiding in Jesus. And that that's a very difficult thing to do. Um, speaking as a Chinese person brought up on the you know tiger mom parenting mentality, uh satisfied um to abide in Christ. That's not a very easy thing to learn.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. So yeah, preaching the grace of Jesus is is a big thing, a big thing. So what's what's what's church like on a Sunday for you?
SPEAKER_01Church like on a Sunday, um so now we've uh my wife and I joined a smaller congregation uh a number of years ago, and so now that congregation number is around three, four hundred. So it's very intimate. Um we we we enjoy this community. Um we the community that we're part of used to be uh spun off of a Korean church, and so there's quite a vibrant Korean uh Christian community in Hong Kong, and so we we are part of the English service, and now it's expanded into its own thing, so it's not not so much just Korean now, it's basically from many people, people from many different backgrounds. Um, and uh it's a very intimate gathering. Um, normally we have two services in the morning, and my wife works um there as well, so she leads the uh foster uh care and adoption ministry there. Um, and she's been doing that for about two to three years now, and it's been such a blessing because there's been a huge heart um for people to foster and to adopt in Hong Kong, and uh our church is at the heart of that right now.
SPEAKER_02Amazing, amazing.
SPEAKER_00Um, Jackie, can you tell us a bit about um kind of the coronavirus over there, kind of when you first kind of heard about it and kind of what it was like in the beginning?
SPEAKER_01Um so we first heard about it around the Chinese New Year time, which is the middle to end of January. Um so that's uh actually about eight weeks ago. And when we first heard about it, of course, we we knew that it was expanding in China. And I think a lot of people were already getting quite nervous because about 17 years ago, we've had the SARS epidemic. And so I I was um just finishing high school at the time, and I still remembered back then that if you got onto public transport and you weren't wearing a mask, um, the driver can actually ask you to get off the bus. And so that was that was back then, and so I think a lot of that memory came back, especially for the older generation. So at the time, people were already beginning to stock up on masks and hand sanitizers. Um and I still remember a very um stark, stark um um a memory from from about six to seven weeks ago. Um, I was just going online to do some shopping and you know, all the masks and hand sanitizers still in stock. Within one day, the website crashed because it had too much traffic. And then by the time you could log in, everything was gone. Uh and this is this is just online, and of course, the supermarkets themselves were completely sold out. I think the fear mentality kicked in very quickly. And so that at that stage, we were already thinking what would happen to the church meeting? Um, because there at the time there was still no infection in Hong Kong, but you know, Hong Kong borders China. And so very soon, I think it was about a week or two after we first heard the news, we had the first infection, and then there was a lot of hysteria, and then Hong Kong, um, the government chose not to close the border to China. And to this day, I think there's still um some level of access uh back and forth from China. Um, but then um in a way at the very beginning, there was a lot of confusion because I think a lot of people were thinking, why don't you just close all the borders, uh, stop contact with mainland China, then maybe this will help. Um, and so there's a lot of perhaps some political considerations involved and many difficulties with doing that. Uh and so those are the type of things that people struggle with, those are the types of questions that people struggle with. And as a church, um, then came the question what would happen if there were infections um enough in Hong Kong to threaten physical church meetings? And so that's that's sort of where we are right now. We've been, you know, since about four or five weeks ago, there the number of infections have led to closure of church meetings. Um, of course, closure, like the closure of schools led much to that. Um, close closure of even cinemas, they're still open, but no one's going. Um and um so that that's very much the environment we're in right now. I think everyone's become very tech savvy in the last four weeks.
SPEAKER_00And it's still complete is that complete closures, so you know no meetings at all of any size, or so this is the thing, and and one of the things I wanted to um have an opportunity to share about, and because a lot of this is very um new back in SARS, there was no rich access to technology, internet was probably running on a 52k speed.
SPEAKER_01I for I forget what what it was back then. Um but then now everyone is blessed with broadband and you can do live meetings and so forth. So now people um to err on the side of caution with would prefer online meetings. And so you have online Bible studies and you have online services. Um, but then uh in one of the articles that uh that that I read, um, the South China Morning Post, I think it was published about three weeks ago, it was doing a survey of how different churches have been responding. And so, you know, on the one hand, you have churches which um do the online meetings, and on the other hand, you have churches which have decided not to close. And their rationale is that they liken the church to a hospital, and to close the church could give off uh an impression that we are perhaps fearful of the circumstances. Um now, uh the church that I attend um uh is adopting the view that um we as a leadership feel quite strongly that we should maintain um the church doors to be open. But of course, there's no pressure for people to come in person. They can log in online if they'd like to, and that for anyone coming in person that they uh they do the usual hygiene so they wash their hands, they they come in face masks if they feel comfortable to. Um, hand sanitizers are provided at the door and so forth. And we wipe down all the chairs after every meeting. Uh and then the temperature checks uh are also done where where we could get them done, uh especially for children's ministry. We still keep them open, and so all children have their temperature checks. If anyone is sick, or if anyone has traveled from the mainland, we've asked them not to attend in person. So we we on the one hand, we try our best to listen to the medical policies and guidelines. On the other hand, we want to make sure that we don't completely forsake the possibility of meeting in person because I think there is a lot of value where possible to meet in person. Um just because many people in our church um, well, not many, I think there's a fair number in our church that if isolated for too long, it's not it's not unheard of that they may face certain types of depression and and online doesn't resolve that. Meeting someone online doesn't really um in many ways fulfill the true dynamic of that relationship. And so I think for many people, um actually, so during this time, because many churches have closed down and we are one of the few that have still kept services running, uh, some of their flock has come over to our church just for physical meetings. And and in many ways we've been blessed with with their presence and sort of until they return back to the to their church body, you know, we welcome them um where they would like to come.
SPEAKER_02Do you feel any judgment from you know other Christians thinking, uh no, this is the unloving thing to do, you you could be carriers? Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Uh look, I think that's that's it the the biggest fight we have, ironically, is not with non-believers. Um the biggest fight we have is is is with believers because um you know, in many ways, people can adopt many views about common sense. They could say that common sense is from God. So if you're if you're using your common sense, then you would be loving to other people by not attending in person, especially for members who have elderly um parents at home and they live with their parents. And my wife and I, we don't live with our parents. Um so that the risk by comparison seems to be lower. Um so we need to be sensitive to that. There is no formula. We we can't say, well, um, because the church doors are open, then you must come in person. And we we we certainly don't expect that. Um it's more for people to make a reasoned uh and prayer-filled decision before they come. Uh and so there is no compulsion. Um so we we we do we we make it very clear every Sunday that you know, please be careful, don't be reckless. Uh, we don't want to be a bad witness. Uh, and of course, every week the the same debate goes on and on. You know, why are why are our doors open? Um and of course, uh it the judgment goes both ways as well. Because on the one hand, people may judge us for being unloving. On the other hand, it's very easy for church door churches where their doors are open to judge other churches and say, why have you closed your doors? Um and so that's that's not right either.
SPEAKER_02No. It's interesting going back to Martin Luther in Wittenberg, and um he he he clearly thought that the right thing to do was to stay in Wittenberg and minister to those who were um experiencing the plague. Um but he also said, look, if you're not if you don't have family ties, then flee, please flee. Um and what he was really ended up ministering to people over is the sense of superiority that one has, you know, that certain people have over other people. So it's so interesting that that that um self-righteousness, you know, in in how we deal with the plague. Uh yeah. I mean, you can see it online today, can't you? You know. Boris has got it wrong about the plague and I've got it right.
SPEAKER_01You know, yeah, I think it's a time where we need to really humble ourselves and check our hearts. Um, it's very easy to look at our leaders and say they've done a bad decision to close the church doors or to open the church doors. But the more important thing is what is God doing through our own hearts during this time? And with that transformation taking place in the struggle of this difficulty, how is that going to turn into a blessing for the church body? Um, how can we turn that into a positive gospel message? And that's that's the difficulty.
SPEAKER_02So you've you've mentioned about um the elderly as well, perhaps perhaps they're they're more likely to stay away um from the public gatherings. Um how do you how do you end up ministering to the elderly? And I I guess that's uh a big concern when coronavirus is just very disproportionately affects them.
SPEAKER_01So there's well, there are a few ways to approach this question. So we we actually still hold um outreaches during this time, um, and which these outreaches, of course, uh are not uh very popularly signed up for, um, depending on the numbers. And so we we have one coming up uh next Saturday. So uh um the the point is that we're gonna reach out to the elderly and the street uh cleaners, many of whom are elderly. And so to be respectful of people who might be fearful of catching the virus, um we have two groups. One group is to cook the food, uh, prepare the uh sort of packages, and then another group uh decides to hand out the packages. So in in many ways, now how we do the ministry is also done very carefully and respectful of the individual um volunteers' um sort of uh stage of acceptance of how they want to serve. And then on the one on the other hand, it's like even how we serve, we make sure we're not serving in the groups of like 50 and 60. We we were going out perhaps in smaller groups, um, just so we also minimize the risk as well. But but by no means, in our view, should we completely have no contact with them either? So that's why we want to um serve the elderly and these street cleaners that way.
SPEAKER_00And how has kind of outreach, church outreach in China been?
SPEAKER_01Uh so it's been very uh it's it's it's interesting because so Hong Kong, I mean, this goes into a little bit of the political situation. Hong Kong is right now uh very much operating in practice like it was before the handover, in the sense that you still have freedom of worship, freedom of proselyth uh proselytizing and all that sort of stuff. Um, and when you just jump the border into China, things are very different. And so you don't have that freedom of worship by comparison, not the same level. They do have official Christian churches, but a lot of that is very government um um sort of monitored. And so how you witness in those churches versus how you witness, for instance, in an underground church is very different. And so with an underground church, they the uh, you know, I've been to a fair number of uh, well, I'm connected to or know people from a fair number of underground churches. And the way they do it is they always go back to the book of Acts. They always see how um the people pray for one another, they embrace one another, they shared their their wealth with one another. It's a it's really humbling when you're in that environment. Uh and I'm not, by the way, saying that the government-sanctioned churches are somehow doing less of God's work. I'm not saying that at all. But it's just that the nature in which they're doing the work is very different. Um, and so um in the context of this virus, the government has mandated different provinces have different ways ways of dealing with it. So, for instance, in Shanghai, um they've actually had a complete provincial lockdown in the sense that if you leave your building, you actually have to provide your ID to tell people that you're leaving the building. And when you come back in, you basically there's a lock for your travel history just to make sure that they know where you've been and that um you you you you're safe, that you can keep other people safe. And so most of the churches in Beijing and in Shanghai have not been meeting in person uh for a much longer period than we have, because the government has specifically mandated this type of not just citywide quarantine, but even area-wide quarantine. Um, and it's worked in many ways. Uh uh with hindsight, it it means again it seems very draconian, but now the the infection has basically whittled down to single digits when it was at the at the height, it was a few thousand a day. Now it's maybe five or six a day. Do you believe those figures, Jackie? Well, that's the thing. I think for a lot of um people who live there, um, they will they they know how the propaganda machine runs. Uh and I think I think in many ways um it's very difficult to take anything at face value, to be honest, even in Hong Kong. Uh and so uh we we cannot deny that there perhaps will be a lot more than what is said. Um but from the church's perspective, um, that's why it's so important that we don't just buy into the numbers, good or bad. I think I think once we buy into the numbers as a basis on which we we react to the circumstances and the way we worship, that is incredibly dangerous as opposed to being led by God's word. Um and that's why, in the midst of the situation, especially as Christians in China, um, regardless of whether there's a lot of infections or very little infection as reported, you know, do we do we do they still minister the same way? Do they still spend time studying the word? Do they still spend time praying for each other? And that's that's what's important. Um now, of course, I'm not saying disregard the numbers and you know, go out there and don't listen to any medical reports because the likelihood is that they're probably doctored or whatever. I'm not I mean I'm not saying that at all. Um but I think the way in which the reporting is done at most will only affect the number of physical meetings and the size of physical meetings, but by no means should they um completely compromise our faith. I mean, I mean, just just one positive testimony I do want to share is that um there was a case where one of the um one of our friends in Beijing got the virus and then she got her father uh infected as well. And of course, none of this, no one wants this for themselves. They certainly don't want to spread it on to their father. And so when she found out about this, she shared this with one of our church friends, and pretty much the church rallied around her straight away, and because of the wonders of the technology, we could do that online. And so now she's completely healed, and that was just a matter of weeks ago. But the whole process just demonstrated how the church really came together and were able to come together so quickly. And personally, I'm just very proud to hear about stories like that, and there are tons of stories like that. Um, you know, you hear stories in Wuhan where the whole thing, well, reportedly broke out from. Um, you have churches going out to this on the streets, even though they've been told not to leave their homes, they're going out into the streets ministering to people. Um, and so to me, when I hear stories like that, it it completely validates what what you guys shared on the podcast last week about how Christians throughout the generations have been responding to the plague.
SPEAKER_03And it's
SPEAKER_01See that much of that is repeated today is very heartwarming and validates that the church today is very much still in a good place. But then, you know, it's always a time to check our hearts. There's never any harm to check our hearts about that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. One of the questions people had after last week's podcast was the fact that it's a little bit different these days. And now that we know about German theory, and now that we have a professionalized medical healthcare system back in the day, Christians would hang around and they would minister to the dead and they would contract the illness, but they would spread life. It's not symptomatic. Me moving towards the vulnerable might mean that I spread the, you know, death. So how do we take what's true from those ancient examples and bring it into the modern day?
SPEAKER_01You know, in a way, there's a sense of innocence about the manner in which our forefathers witnessed, because they were not, on the one hand, you can say, yes, it's always good, these medical investments are great, and I feel followed them, and we have many great doctors in our church that provide us with the necessary information. But on the other hand, sometimes when we're overlaid with not just medical information, but all types of information coming from different angles, um, one can say that if we don't process that information in the right way, it does hinder ministry. Uh and so, you know, we're in an we are in an age where we're provided with like seamless information. And so it's very difficult for us to learn how to sift through that before we come to a view, okay, that's information I can use before I minister. To take your point, for instance, yes, back in those days, perhaps we they didn't know about germ theory and they didn't think much about whether they were passing the plague along and they were just simply ministering to people. Um, I think more importantly, is that if they had known about germ theory, would they have stopped? And I think given given given the manner of their faith, I mean, obviously we can't speak for the forefathers, but we can see from their fruit, perhaps they would not have stopped, perhaps they would have still ministered. I don't know. And so the question for us is um is there, you know, we have to weigh the risk because you know, I am a father of two children. If I were to go out tonight and to minister to people randomly and I catch the virus and I come home and you know, my wife and my kids are infected, is that something that's responsible? Uh and that's something that I need to come to views, I I need to come to um a conviction on. And it needs to be done transparently. I can't just go out and do it. I need to make sure that my family is in on it. And if they're willing to take the risk, then of course I, you know, then then that gives me freedom to do these types of ministries as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um a moment ago we were talking about kind of the the ch uh kind of in China and outreach there, and we were talking you talked about the cases, kind of numbers coming down, and you said, you know, how people understand how the propaganda machine works and things. Yeah. Um but how how would you say how do people know who to trust in those things? You know, when well at least because at least uh here, we the difficulty for us in knowing who to trust is that lots of people share stuff on social media and you know they say, oh look, this person's saying this, this person's saying that. And I look at that and go, I don't know what to believe. I genuinely feel that I can probably take what the government says over here probably as being truth. Um but how do people cope over there when you like you say there is a propaganda machine? How do you differentiate between what's the propaganda and what's the reality in that?
SPEAKER_01Uh it it's honestly it's it's uh it's something that we're learning by the day. Um and about six months ago in Hong Kong, we've we faced unprecedented anti-government protests. Um and so from then on, I think a lot of the Hong Kong public has been learning how to sift between propaganda and true news. Because at the time, there was a lot of propaganda about what China was doing behind the scenes, and there's a lot of conspiracy theories that are thrown out as fact. Uh, and then by the same token, you know, the flip side is the truth. And so when we come to the virus, actually a lot of people have learned to figure out what's fake and what's not. And so, by way of example, um, there would be a lot more people doing these anonymous messages, forwarding anonymous messages on Facebook, on WhatsApp, um, and then saying, oh, there's an outbreak in Kowloon right now, and don't go to Kowloon, don't go to these shopping malls. And um, you know, because we're so immune, not so immune, but we're more immune to fake news now, it's very easy for people to listen to that and say, wait, that doesn't sound right, because if this was true, then where's the source of that information? And as it so turns out, it's a complete, completely fake audio clip. And the person who who uh generated that audio clip is now being prosecuted by the Hong Kong government for spreading fake news. And so I feel like it's it's sort of like it takes time because if people are not used to dealing with this type of information, then you're right. It's very easy to absorb it and it's very easy to be misled by it. And so, in many ways, it's also about by experience, are we being vigilant with what we're what we're reading? Um, one brother from my church um very helpfully said that whenever we're watching the news, whenever we're reading this information, um, are we lifting this information up to God, praying for clarity, praying for discernment? And in many ways, sometimes once we pray for that clarity and discernment, we we we have the godly wisdom as to how to generate that information and whether we decide to forward it on, or whether we decide that, you know what, this this this information will not affect how I do A, B, C, D, and E. Um, but a lot of that has to be done in community. If, if, say, like my non-believing parents, they and they're retired now, and they're bombarded with this information every day, they will literally take every single piece of information as truth. And it's actually incredibly unhealthy, very unhealthy, because on the one hand, they're the target group that is most likely to risk um um being affected by this disease. They're also the group which means that they should not be leaving their house as often, happen to be the same group that reads all this news online, which they have now have ready access to, which back in SARS they wouldn't, because back in SARS you'd be reading newspapers. Now they can read a news update every five minutes. And so that actually creates a very unhealthy environment for them. And as a believer, as a son, my job is to pray over them and to make sure that I help them sift through this information and that um I help them monitor that to help them through this information. Otherwise, it's very easy for them to go through depression as well. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00What's just out of interest, what's the division like in the church, in the sense of I'm assuming it it there must be people in the church who swallow the propaganda and people who are very much saying this is obvious propaganda. And that could I could see quite a battle between groups there, possibly. But what's what happens there? Is that the case?
SPEAKER_01I mean, even even yeah, absolutely, Paul. Um very true. And I I think frankly, um uh this is this is just gonna keep on going until the virus situation stops. Um, so a very simple example is um, you know, we we always have doctor friends and you know, different doctors of different views. And so when you hear one doctor saying, Oh, face masks won't do anything, you know, N95 masks won't do anything. And so it's very easy because in many ways what they're saying is already affirming what you want to believe. So if you already don't want to wear face masks or you you you have a suspicion that these things don't help, then it's very easy to find someone who affirms your view and then you cling on to that, and then you tell people, look, this doctor friend said this, and then you spread that that gospel. And then by the opposite end of the spectrum, you have the same issue where you have people who refuse any human contact. In fact, many of my church friends have not left their house or have only left their house for groceries in the last eight weeks. And so for them, they would they would have their own source that would help them substantiate their actions. And so when you come to that, you have to find the middle ground because the church is an open place for everyone. We're not supposed to judge between the two, but we're also supposed to disciple them as well. So, how do you disciple people who are right now on opposite ends of the spectrum both have medical advice telling them to do opposite things? And so, one example would be uh a relatively recent one is uh one of the members challenged leadership and said, um, why aren't you forcing everyone to wear face masks before they come to church? Um, and the the difficulty on the one hand is well, firstly, there is a face mask um shortage around the globe. So not just not just in the cities in the West, but uh very much in Asia as well. So you can't mandate that because by implication, those who don't have face masks are not allowed to come to church. Uh on the on the other hand, um uh in many ways, you can't mandate someone to operate in a way that they they don't at the moment feel free to worship in. So many people prefer still to worship without face masks. They feel like there's a there's a freedom in being completely, how do I say, there's no there's no barrier between them and God during a worship service. Uh some people believe that. And so there's it's very difficult for us to force them to do that. Um, and so that's that's difficult. And we we have to revisit that every week. We can't say, well, this week we've decided we cannot mandate everyone to to wear face masks, but we have to revisit that question seven days on because things would have developed since. And maybe maybe the infection has spread in in smaller communities, and then we need to come to New View then.
SPEAKER_02What's it what's it been like? Because you you you mentioned the the the protests from six months ago. Um obviously the community um has been a lot more divided. I I imagine that the virus has, in one sense, you know, united you against a common enemy. Has has there been a little bit of that sense?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, that's very uh that's very true, Glenn. Um, so my wife and I were actually discussing this and how um you know we've been meditating very much on how as a church we should respond to these types of political protests. And I imagine in England you guys uh have very similar situations as well across the globe. Um and I think it's it's one of those things where as a Chinese person, and especially in Hong Kong, where a lot of the political identity is very um divided, and it's very easy for a church to sort of um take political sides. Uh and I think we've seen churches uh house many anti-government authorities, um, and they provide refuge for these anti-government authorities. So it's very easy for the government to then brand the church as a supporter of anti-government activity. Uh and so when you have all this division and suddenly the virus comes around, um, and you're basically, or before the virus, you could have a father who is very much pro-government, and then you have a son who's very much anti-government. Now they're forced to be in the same house because they're under quarantine. And so, in those circumstances, in my view, I think it's beautiful because it's kind of like the circumstances force you either to continue to hate each other's guts or that you're forced to reconcile. Uh, and at the moment, um, there seems to be some peace. Um, and there are rumblings that this peace won't last long when the virus is over. But I I do wonder about that because now the churches, from what I see, is that at least the church in Hong Kong and in China have not stopped doing their work, which means that we've still been ministering to people, we're still telling people about Jesus. And hopefully that gives them some room to have um changes of heart because now they're not going out to protest. Now they're forced to stay at home. And hopefully that means um both the government and the protesters have more to pray about.
SPEAKER_02So uh we've got a great question from uh Joshua Tomlin on TopCat. And uh he's asking uh what would be the best way to make sure the church protects the elderly and at-risk groups without completely isolating them, especially as as many of them may not be active on the internet. Uh we've we've we're we're thinking this through as a as a charity. We've we've got many older kind of donors and we're supporters. We're we're kind of thinking, how do we support them if they if they have to self-isolate for 12 12 weeks? And we're like, well, we could send them videos, but they're they're not really video kind of people. And yeah, how do how do we how do we support them?
SPEAKER_01Um well, I mean, look, uh from my church's perspective, um, the unfortunate thing is that we don't have a very um elderly demographic. Most of our church uh perhaps ranges from 20-year-olds to 60-year-olds, but anything beyond that is is much less in our church family. Um with that said, what we've been trying to do in the last eight weeks, uh other than the outreach opportunities that I just mentioned, is that we do try to set up smaller meetings, but we need to ask the elderly for permission because um, you know, there's a there's a sense of uh phobia to to any meetings right now. And so if we say that, well, we're gonna meet in very small groups, we're gonna make sure that before we meet with you, we're gonna do all the usual hygiene procedures. Um, and usually that's okay. So I've met up with uh a few people's elderly parents um in the past few weeks um at very small settings, so maybe one-to-one or one-to-two meetings, and they've been very happy to meet in those contexts. But once the group gets big, then they get a little bit nervous. So, in a way, and and and you know, to answer your point, they're also not very tech savvy. So that's sort of one way to do it. We do breakfast meetings, um, we do lunches and coffees, and that's sort of the way to do it so far, and that's just what's been working for our church. And I'm sure there are a lot more creative ways to do it. Um, but that those are the ways we've been doing so far.
SPEAKER_00So I guess it's one thing, isn't it, for the like elderly people being confined and isolated. But actually, a lot of you guys are isolated as well at the moment, and you've been isolated for about eight weeks. Can you give us a sense of what it's like being in isolation for eight weeks? I mean, how much have you been out at all, or how does it work?
SPEAKER_01So so my wife and I have varying degrees. Um, so she's pregnant right now, and so um it's very uh uh she has a lot more consideration at play because when the virus broke out, there's zero literature on what impact it has on a pregnant woman. Um, and so um the doctor normally the the doc the doctor we have, she's very laxed, she's very good, but she's very lax, she's a type who says, Well, yeah, it's all right, you can have a cup of wine a night, maybe you can have some sushi, basically things that doctors don't normally advise in Hong Kong. But then even with this virus, she said, Yeah, don't travel if you don't need to, and and prefer to stay at home if you if you have to, because there's just no information. Um, so when when there's no information, it just it's a breeding ground for fear. Um, and so with with our family, because I have two young kids and then now potentially a third one, they're all stuck at home, schools are closed. So um many families uh refuse to do meetups. So we've had a few instances where we have birthday parties being canceled. Um and that's a difficult thing for children because you know much of what we pay for at school isn't just the education, it's actually the relationships and the friendships. And so my my kids miss miss their classmates, and so the the only exposure they have to them um is on Zoom calls. Uh that's and uh and with that said, we do arrange um meetings every so often, maybe once a week, maybe twice a week, but a lot of precaution is involved, uh uh, and it's it's not easy. And then with my my wife and I are full, you know, we're you know, we work full-time, and so we we are expected to um teach them the curriculum at home while doing our jobs, and so that's um very difficult. Um and well, we're in in many ways in Hong Kong, we're blessed to have domestic helpers, but even then it's it's not easy, and not everyone has domestic helpers either. So I would imagine that in um, which is actually what happened in Japan. So when Japan, when when the prime minister um uh closed um all the schools, and it was an instantaneous decision. Um, there was no warning. And so on one day he just says, all schools from now on will be closed for a few weeks. And because they don't have domestic help there, and almost uh the working culture in Japan is is very difficult, um, it was impossible for parents to figure out what to do at home because they don't have help and and they don't have um automatic work-from-home arrangements. Um, and so in many ways, for people who can work from home, that's uh it's already a blessing in disguise. Um, and and I think most people are really at their tipping point. And so it's a very difficult time for a lot of people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. We have a good um solution to that because um our kids are our domestic help. So that's that that works. That's good.
SPEAKER_01I I I I I think I'll have to take a page from that book lens to start with that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Uh another great question from Josh Tomlin. Uh, what's the most unexpected consequence of being in isolation for such a long time? Is there anything you didn't see coming?
SPEAKER_01I think and this is from speaking to um some of the brothers and sisters uh in China as well, because their their level of isolation is even more than us. Um we already have been uh and about two, three weeks ago, most people have begun going back to work because I think most companies cannot afford their employees continue to work from home and logging in at 11 a.m. And so uh and uh whereas with my brothers uh and sisters in China, um they have been forced to stay at home. And I think one thing they realized is that they felt it's a testing, it's a very testing period for our faith. Um it's a classic situation where you know for the for the number of years Hong Kong and China have been thriving economically. We're in great circumstances. It's not difficult to to look like you're doing great in your face. Um, but then when these hard times hit, um when people uh are not even willing to log in online because they're so disillusioned with their circumstances. Um and that's happened a few times. We've had a few um Skype calls where we try to do these fellowships online, and people inexplicably just choose not to log in. Um and then you realize that they're probably going through some difficulties themselves at home. Um, and and so in those times, um, it's not to say that they're having, I don't say, they're walks with God or somehow, you know, they're backsliding or anything like that. It's just people face difficulties they never thought they would have to face. Um, and and isolation is certainly a very unexpected turn of events. Um no one would expect to be forced to be isolated. And so that that's that's something that as church leaders, we then realize that um we've taken community for granted.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01Um we've taken meeting up in person for granted. And when people are isolated, all the all the things, all the bad experiences and bad memories come up to the front. And suddenly we realize that um we do need to be more proactive um in meeting up with people, being more intentional with building relationships. Uh, I think that's the sort of the upshot of the isolation is that now we realize that we've not been doing a great job when when we've taken community for granted. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And if in 12 months we look back on on this time and um what what what do you hope people will say of your face? What do you what do you hope people will say of your t-shirt when they say, oh man, 2020, that was tough. But how do you finish that sentence?
SPEAKER_01Well, I can't think of anything pity that you would normally say, Glenn. Um, yeah, I'm glad. I'm trying to throw it back to you as well. I I think and that's a question I struggle with every day, to be very honest. Um it's it's I would like to think that I've not I'd like to think that I seized every perceivable opportunity um and not look back and feel like um I've missed something that God was trying to present to me. Um, and that these circumstances are always, you look at church history, you look through the word, um, difficult circumstances are always a breeding ground for opportunities for greater faith. And what that looks like will differ from person to person. Um, and I would like to believe that for every single believer during this time, that um looking back one year from now, that this will be a point in their personal testimony where they can say, I've grown in this particular way that I never would have experienced but for the virus. Um, and that could be different for everyone. Some people could say, I've begun to learn how to pray. Or some people could say, I've begun to read the word more because I was otherwise distracted by work. Now I'm forced to read the word at home. Um, and and to me, that's already a great victory. Um, we don't have to, you know. Have set very high goals for ourselves. I think really God looks at the heart. And we just need to appreciate and support each other when there are these small testimonies. Because once that, frankly speaking, and now that I'm thinking about it, once you have that seed sown for these people having an amazing experience despite the virus, when the virus is gone, people will then, you know, their faith will reach new stages because they've had that experience. And so that's actually what I pray for for most of the people within my fellowship, and most of the people within our church is that it doesn't matter if you're coming in person. It doesn't matter if you are so scared that you always wear a face mask even at home and you're using hand sanitizers every moment you get. What matters is, you know, looking back before and after the virus, what has changed? How is Jesus different to you before and after? And I'd like to believe that Jesus has become more real and that he's not, you know, before before he was smaller, now he's bigger. I mean that that to me is a relative success.
SPEAKER_02I love it. I love it. Um, yeah, wouldn't that be something? Yeah, I learned I learned to pray because of self-isolation. Wouldn't that be? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the irony, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there you go. Yeah, yeah. Because Jesus doesn't self-isolate. Yeah, there we go. We've uh No, he's there, he's there with us.
SPEAKER_01That's the thing, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Emma's about to publish a post that I've just I just got to read. Um, so my wife, my wife is a blogger, and and for those who don't know, and and um yeah, she's actually she's pointing to a the the part in Mark chapter one where Jesus reaches out to the leper. Um, if you're willing, you can make me clean. And Jesus says, I am willing, be clean. And and like for for Jesus, like disease is an opportunity for him to reach out to you. Yeah. Um and so yeah, this is the question. What is Jesus doing? You know, the question is not what is Boris Johnson doing about the virus. No, absolutely not. That is that is a vain hope for deliverance. Um, but what what is Jesus doing in and through the plague? You know, he's got form. He he he's been working through plagues right from the beginning, through, you know, from Exodus and then Amos and then right to the end in Revelation. So, yeah, what is what is he doing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And look, I mean, I don't I don't mean to be divisive or anything, because of course, within Hong Kong there are many different denominations, and so as it's the same across the globe, and so you have different denominations, churches from different denominations will have different responses. So um, for instance, the Anglican church may have particular mandates about how um the church should stay open or not in Hong Kong, whereas non-denominational churches may feel comparatively a bit more freedom to operate under their own wing. And so that's when we need to respect each other's denomination. Um, some denominations um who which believe in, for instance, physical healing, uh, would say that this is an opportunity to pray for more physical healing. And some denominations don't believe that, and so we need to respect the differences in many ways, but see how our faith can still grow um despite these theological differences. And that that is is interesting, it's very interesting because then these debates come to the fore a lot more. You know, whether we treat um the disease as something from God or whether we treat the disease as something that we pray against, that's uh a whole different thing as well. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And is there yeah, can could we even do both? Um, yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we've we've got an armful of verses from both camps. So exactly, exactly. So it's a debate that can take a while.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Jesus, what are you doing through this plague? I hate it, stand against it in your name. You know, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I think all yeah, we need to be able to hold all those things. Umtink one on Top Chat has just said we need to exercise more trust in God and be a help and show Jesus. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Any any final words of wisdom? Jackie Lamb size.
SPEAKER_01I wouldn't I wouldn't say I wouldn't say I shared much wisdom. It's just uh it's just experiences uh uh of a random, as I said, a random Asian that stumbled across across your podcast and very much left by it last. We have our title.
SPEAKER_02We have our title.
SPEAKER_01That's the random Asian. The Asian that came to tea. Um I think um I'm very look, first I want to say I'm very blessed by both of you because the podcast last week was was uh such a blessing, and um you guys have really come to the front of the situation, and I trust that, you know, it's very it's very good that your organization, Speak Life, is exactly what it is now, because right now it's a very chaotic time. Um, it's a very dark time for many people. Um, and I think frankly, a lot of um believers have gotten used to um being silenced like Adam. Um and and it's time where, especially like this, where we learn how to speak life into each other's lives in creative ways and not rely on what we've been used to um in the past. And we realize that there's so much more we can do as believers. Um I've looked in the past eight weeks, I've learned so much more about my inadequacies um and my lack of faith, um, and that I'm trying my best to overcome them with new and creative ways, um, by the grace of God and obviously by the word of God. And so that's something that I'm very blessed by. And to hear to hear you guys basically doing um um very similar work uh and actually coming to the front of that, um, I just want to encourage you guys. You guys are doing an amazing job. And I trust that the people who tune in um to your videos and to your podcasts are equally, if not more, blessed. And and such a timely uh thing to do right now, because now they have even more opportunity to tune in and hear words of wisdom and words of life from you guys. So just want to thank you for that.
SPEAKER_00It's very kind.
SPEAKER_02Pleasure, pleasure. And you know, uh we yeah, we truly believe that this is an opportunity, as you say, Jackie, uh, not just to watch Netflix, but uh but actually, you know, to learn to pray and to to be encouraged in the word. And uh and uh yeah, I mean, one thing that people can do if you want to uh support our work is just click the the the like button on the video, share it around, subscribe to the channel, and uh and if you want to help uh in more financial ways, you can go to speaklife.org.uk slash give. And uh yeah, at this time of economic downturn, um giving in that way would really bless us uh as as a ministry. That's uh speaklife.org.uk slash give. But um yeah, Paul, do you have any do you have any final final thoughts of Fijian Fijian wisdom?
SPEAKER_00Fijian wisdom. Uh no, I don't think I've got anything I can add to what's been said. It's all been really helpful stuff.
SPEAKER_02It's been pretty awesome. Hey, look, hey, look, we've got the little this is gonna go viral now. This is gonna go viral. It's a little bit of that Korean DVD. That's again, mommy doesn't want you getting famous. Daddy wouldn't mind, but mummy doesn't want you getting famous because you stay over there. It's uh guys, uh thank you so much for joining us. And uh tomorrow we're gonna do uh another live stream. I'm gonna be talking to James Kerry and Nate Morgan Lock and Barry Cooper about how they are bearing up in this kind of self-isolation. No movie, you can't get on camera. Your mother would never forgive it. Um thank you everybody for joining us. Jackie, thank you so much uh for joining us today.