The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life. Livecast. Welcome to the live cast.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to the show. Setting up your meeting.
SPEAKER_01We're live. Says we're live here at my end. We're live.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to the live cast.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, I can hear I can hear your uh sound coming through.
SPEAKER_02There it is! Uh hello everybody. Uh my name's Glenn Scrivener. Uh my name's Paul Feezy. And together we're Scribb's Easy. And uh we we uh I am self-isolating. Um Paul is just a Dosser. Um staying at home and uh working from home as ever. This is your thing now, isn't it? Working from home.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02How how long have you worked from home for?
SPEAKER_01Uh well, from for at least two and a half years, really.
SPEAKER_02Okay, okay, yeah, at least partially. Lots of people online are now wanting to know how, you know, if they've never worked from home before, what are the challenges? What are the what are your top tips, tips, and techniques as we're all going into lockdown, as we're all self-isolating? I'm self-isolating because I have a little cough. Um, which is I think would be fine, except that if I'm in a pulpit and I'm speaking in front of lots of people and I go, um, people are no longer listening to the message.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I guess the biggest thing is you do generally need to try and do some work. I mean, that is that's always an issue.
SPEAKER_02Okay. You heard it here first, people.
SPEAKER_01I do a bit of work. But the the you just need to like I I found it quite helpful making lists of stuff that I actually need to do. And like I'll say I'll have this done by 11am or whatever, or 12 or something. Yes. Because then you actually get through stuff, you know. Um and the other, I suppose so you do you have to do some work. Then the the other thing is you have to stop working.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01So start working. Start working, but stop working as well. You know, this is all and you can have this is all for free, people.
SPEAKER_02Imagine that.
SPEAKER_01You need to pay for this advice, okay? Like a free clinic online.
SPEAKER_02Get what you pay for, people. You get what you pay for.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah. No, because I think the temptation is like when you get to lunchtime, you just work through lunch and things, and then you don't really stop. Also, it's helpful to go outside. That's quite useful, but not now. Don't go outside at the moment, you'll die. It's terrible. Don't do it.
SPEAKER_02There's always that. But um uh yes, uh, we've uh asked people for their various questions uh this week about, in particular, about coronavirus. Don't ask us about auto maintenance. Um that that is not our area. Um but we are we are obviously epidemiologists and virologists of uh of some standing in the scientific community.
SPEAKER_01Very much so.
SPEAKER_02Very much so.
SPEAKER_01Highly respected in our field.
SPEAKER_02We're not any of those things, by the way. Um But we have we have been asked questions about how Christians and church leaders uh should respond to the coronavirus. And um uh one one person asked a very good question. AJB on Twitter asked, um, would Christians from history that we cited last week um would they have responded differently in the light of modern germ theory? Um so for those uh who didn't tune in last week, last week we did a little bit of a history, um, seven times in history when the church had to deal with plagues, pestilence, uh, pandemics, those sorts of things. And uh and we spoke in glowing terms of um uh Christian responses, perhaps in Carthage in 251, or in Corinth uh in the second century. And uh, for instance, uh Dionysius, the bishop of Corinth in the second century, um uh he spoke of the way in which Christians um uh handled the plague of their day. He said, Most of our brother Christians showed unbounded love and loyalty, never sparing themselves and thinking only of one another. Heedless of danger, they took charge of the sick, attending to their every need and ministering to them in Christ. And with them they departed this life serenely happy, for they were infected by others with the disease, drawing on themselves the sickness of their neighbors and cheerfully accepting their pains. Many, in nursing and curing others, transferred their death to themselves and died in their stead. A beautiful Christ-like you know picture of what it is to you take on death so that you can give others life. Um but AJB has asked the very good question: what about these days? Um, all with all that we know about germ theory, with all that we know about how you can be asymptomatic and still carry the disease, um, what do we think then about moving towards the vulnerable? Um and at that stage, uh love might require um something different. Um probably you don't just rush towards the vulnerable, towards the elderly, those with underlying health conditions, uh heedless, um, because you might well be a carrier rather than just a carer.
SPEAKER_01So uh you've got to exercise wisdom, haven't you, I suppose, in this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But I think I think it's wisdom that is shaping love. Love should still be um the goal and should still be the foundation of how you are moving towards people. Um and self-sacrifice has got to be at the heart of what love is. So um don't don't self-isolate simply out of fear or simply out of apathy. Um, that is not motivated by love. If it's motivated by love, then that's a different thing. Um and there might well be lots of ways in which Christians will be called on in the next few weeks and months um to sacrifice themselves. Um perhaps especially in um healthcare professions. Um perhaps uh as we seek to serve the elderly, um perhaps they will be um self-isolating um very much, and and maybe there are costly ways that we can reach out there. Um but yeah, we don't we don't simply take uh what the Christians did in Carthage and bring it into today because we you know they didn't have professionalized health care and they didn't have germ theory. Um but still love should be the motivation, I think.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um so but but I I do think there's a there's a danger as social distancing becomes the watchword, I I think there's a great danger that actually emotional distancing becomes our default setting. Um it's already, you know, that's already a big feature of modern society, emotional distancing. Yeah. Um but I I do I do wonder whether being given the green light about these kinds of things, um it might it might exacerbate the the selfishness that is natural to us all, is one thought.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I guess we've started to see some of that come out in the behavior of people already, haven't we? Yes. In what way, in what way? Well, you know, I think we've seen it, haven't we, in the the stockpiling of things and the supermarkets, um, you know, people fighting over loads and stuff like that, and uh, you know, stockpiling bits of wells. People, you know, people seem to be saying they're going to the shops and there's you know, there's nothing, you know, there's not much left on the shelves in terms of some of the you know longer lasting products that people might be buying. So yeah. When push comes to shove and it's really you or me, well it ain't gonna be you, is it? It's gonna be me. So I'm gonna isolate myself away from you, and I don't really care what happens to you.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, henna's on Twitter has asked, what drives the panic buying phenomenon?
SPEAKER_01What is it? Uh well I think it's probably fear and and selfishness. You know, I think there's it's the like most of the i i it's one of those interesting moments, isn't it, where most of the time here in in the UK at least, and probably in wet in the West, we we feel like we're in control of stuff. Um and this is a moment where you realize you know, it doesn't matter whether you're filthy rich or you know, quite poor, you're not really in control. You know, Tom Hanks has got it, you know. Right. Tom Hanks has got it, anyone could get it. Um so you know, I think people is just looking out for themselves, basically. That's what it is. It's no one else is gonna help me. Yeah, you know, and as you see, the people, you know, you read the comments on Facebook, people saying, Oh, the I've just been to Morrison's and it's Carnage and there's none of this and there's none of that. You know, you look at it and you go, Oh, that's that's crazy that people are doing this. But also there's a bit of, I'm sure there's a bit of us all going, hmm, maybe I should have bought some more beans or something, you know. You know, you know, will they all be gone by the time I get there?
SPEAKER_02Um it would be interesting to notice. Like, I think it's very, it's very um natural to think, oh, it's probably just a couple of really appalling hoarders who've gone out. And I've you know, we spotted them. There's some mobile phone footage somewhere out there of the the three or four hoarders who've taken all the toilet roll. And we point the finger at them. It's not, it's just that all of us have have just bought five percent more. Like, pretty much. That's like as we seek to point the finger at all the hoarders, there's three fingers pointing straight back. That's the you know, that's the funny thing. All these terrible hoarders out there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It's true. I'm sure it's true.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I think it goes to show like like these these times of pandemic, they're they're just an intensification of the normal course of life, actually. Um and it's it's not a case of you know, d David Brooks wrote a terrific article in the New York Times over the weekends, and he said, um uh, we may not like who we become in the next few weeks. That was that was the strap line of his article. You may not like who you become in the next few weeks. But of course, you didn't become that selfish person overnight.
SPEAKER_01It's just no, it's just allowed to come out, you know. And I mean, like I was, you know, um as I I mentioned I would earlier to you that I was preaching on Genesis 9 uh yesterday and kind of picking up on the end of Genesis eight as well, and you know, particularly the stuff that crops up there that every inclination of man's heart is only evil from childhood. And you're like, well, this is in terms of ill illustrating that, I was like, well, just look at the look at what's going on, like in our in our supermarkets. Right. That is that is human nature right there, and it's just unveiled for all to see. And I said, you know, what's the reason? I said, you, you know, what's the reason that you and I sitting there in church just said, what's the reason that we're not out there taking all the lu roll and fighting over it in the in the aisles? I said the reason we're not doing that is because we've got plenty of lurol. I said, you know, the you know, don't kid yourself, you know. The reality is when it gets down to it and you suddenly realize it's you or me, right? Well, you know, that's when you realize, well, it's gonna be me and I'm gonna come and I'm gonna take your loo roll, basically. Yeah, so I threatened the whole congregation. I said, basically, well, watch out, I'm coming for you. Don't be fooled by my slight frame. I do kickboxing. So I will kick you, I will take your loo roll, right?
SPEAKER_02This is you urging them to be more Christ-like.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, that was it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I get it, I get it.
SPEAKER_01I just said it doesn't take much, it doesn't take much for that thin veneer of respectability and goodness to suddenly the cracks appear. Right. And it's in at times like this, it's like you say, it's not like people were turned into these monsters. It was always just there, but it was allowed to come out.
SPEAKER_02Right. Yeah. And um Ian McCarthy on Top Chat has asked, has anyone been elbow bumped in the throat in the battle for bog roll yet? I love the word yet in that question. It's coming.
SPEAKER_01This this is everyone at church yesterday was kind of jokingly doing the old, you know, oh let's let's do elbows, you know, like just touch elbows instead of shaking hands. And I say that I feel like I'm preparing for when I get to Morrison's just to barge some old ladies out the way, you know, like quick elbow to the throat.
SPEAKER_02Man, we we do not we do we do not condone these things as a but yes, it's uh it's an intensification. Plagues, pandemics are an intensification of what is the normal course of life. So um there might be a death rate of 1% in in terms of catching coronavirus, there might be a death rate of as much as six percent. It seems like in Italy right now it's about six percent of those who've been diagnosed with um the virus. Um but still 100% of people will die. Um and we we never, you know, we we never contemplate that. I mean, death has never been um as little a part of our public consciousness as it is right now in the modern 21st century West. We never see death, you know. I I've said before on this show, you know, I I um in training to be an Anglican minister, I remember the person who was um teaching us about funerals just asked us, you know, how many people have seen dead bodies? And it was like me and one other person in a in a class full of almost a hundred. And it was like, yeah, which is bizarre. In other ages, of course, you know, your siblings would have died in in childbirth. Um you wouldn't you wouldn't have been able to get out of childhood without seeing many, many dead bodies.
SPEAKER_01Um, and these days, even in cultures today, like you know, people die and the bodies are very much on display, you know, grandma's on the table in the living room or whatever, and for a few days and everyone comes around.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01So death is very visible, whereas we don't really have that. You know, someone dies often in hospital or they're taken off to the morgue or something, and they're hidden away, right? And then you put them in a box and you don't look in the box. We very rarely have open things. Um, so death is very hidden, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, and even like as they report on Italy, I I was looking for some videos about, you know, ICU doctors and you know how how horrible it is. But most of the videos I could find were of the solidarity of the Italian people, and they were all in their apartment blocks, you know, singing the national anthem and um the triumph of the human spirit.
SPEAKER_01Um that's what I've been doing. I've been leaning out the bathroom window singing God Save the Queen. You gotta do something.
SPEAKER_02You gotta do so, but you know, love your neighbor might suggest, Paul, that you you refrain from doing that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they've asked me to isolate more.
SPEAKER_02Self-mute as well. Um, but yeah, like we want the triumph of the human spirit to be kind of more more the the news story than you know a thousand people you know dying in in Italy, which is what is the case. And and and people die out of sight, out of mind. And to be honest, with the elderly and the and the the prospect in the UK of the elderly self-isolating for for four months, I mean that's what that's what's being talked about at the moment.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02They're saying we're not pulling the trigger on this yet, but it is a uh a possibility. Perhaps you know, at some point in the next few weeks, we will say all the elderly must must self-isolate. And you just think, actually, we've we have isolated the elderly already before even doing this. The the the the the sense of loneliness um among the aged in in our society is is immense. And we're just gonna isolate them even further through this. Um, because we just we just put the the issue of our frailty and our aging and our mortality, we just you know put that off and put that off and put that off. And and I guess a plague is a sense of intensifying what's what's already there. Um so one of the things that plagues intensify is our fears of mortality, another thing is our fears of disease, um, another is our fears of running out. Um many people have huge fears of of running out of uh and and it could be a you know different things for different people. Um but just that that idea of scarcity, that idea of finitude that you know we we we we are not infinite beings.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, I mean we live it's a we've never I suppose we've never really had to deal with the concept of of not having uh potentially a lot of stuff being there available for us. You know, like you're thinking generations past, you you work to get your food and you know you you hope the harvest comes. Yes, and you're very reliant on whether that goes well or not. Whereas we don't really have any of that system at all. We just kind of think, well, I just pop down the shops. Yeah, and there'll always be food in the shops, yeah. Regardless of what happens. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02And then we we keep seeing these, you know, photographs of empty shelves, and that's just hasn't, you know, that that's like communist era era Russia, you know, isn't like when when's the last time that you know people had to deal with empty shelves? Um Amanda Kaminsky on Top Chat, she says people should stop sharing photos of empty shelves, it's creating more panic shopping. Um so but yeah, just just the idea that there's emptiness. Um you know, we we we hate the the mobile phone battery going down from 26 to 25 to 24 to 23. Um but that's that's the nature of all of life, you know. Yeah, it's it's happening to us all. Um another another thing that we are constantly feeling and that plagues in intensify, uh I think is this this tendency to dehumanize. Um so I think that's something that that plagues do for us. Um because if you are a medical professional, or if you're in charge of perhaps the National Health Service or something like that, if you're in charge of having to allocate healthcare resources, you you're used to having to deal with questions like um, okay, we can afford to do this many hip operations, or we can afford to do um, you know, this many um lung transplants or something, you know. And and and maybe maybe you could serve the elderly, and you could serve 10,000 elderly people for every 100 young people you could serve. You know, and and when you're allocating healthcare resources, you're always having to trade off things like that. It's just the nature of scarce resources. You're just gonna have to make make decisions like that. But at a time of plague, we we read about Italian doctors having to choose between, okay, so you've got three patients, one's a 40-year-old with two kids, one's a 40-year-old um in tip-top health, and one's a 65-year-old with underlying health concerns. Which which of the three gets the respirator? And what's interesting is that that is uh that is an intensification of an issue that lots of lots of healthcare professionals are always having to deal with. But when it comes to the sharp end, you start having to trade off a person against a person. And then your belief in personal individual human rights um starts to feel very threatened. Um and and uh you're in this business of trading off one person against another person. And so this tendency that we all have within us to dehumanize other people, um, that that gets that gets intensified too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, I'm surprised as well that um we've not really seen anybody saying with any seriousness yet. Um I think we mentioned it when we talked about it last week a little bit that ageism will come up out of this. That people say, Oh, it's it's just the elderly who are in you know in danger, really, and those with underlying health conditions and things like that. So um oh my goodness, keep yourself, keep it yourself, Glenn. I know uh pestilential preacher here, pestilential preacher. Um but you it wouldn't surprise me if before long, you know, we because you could look at this and say, but this is just the world way of yeah, or let's use let's use a uh the people say this is just Mother Nature's way of dealing with the issues we've got, you know, like it's gonna wipe out a whole load of the elderly population, which uh will put, you know, who are putting a great amount of strain on our resources of healthcare already. Um and also, you know, I think we've said that uh I don't know if you mentioned it earlier, but about the pollution in Italy seems to be dropping during this season. So could this be a good thing from a climate perspective? I'm really surprised we've not seen people coming out and saying these things already. And have you? You've seen it actually, people saying it seriously. I mean, I've I've kind of thrown it about with people in the sense of it wouldn't surprise me if people would start saying these things. But I don't think I've actually seen it being said yet.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, the the whole search um bar in Twitter, you like I clicked on it the other day, and the number one thing, and it was curated, it wasn't because so many people were tweeting about it, but it was curated by you know someone at Silicon Valley, but um it was the yeah, it was the the aerial picture of air pollution above northern Italy and how much and how much lower air pollution was above northern Italy. And you just like I And that is a trade, I don't know, that that is that seems to me very dangerously moving towards trading off the human crisis against well, on the other hand, there's a bit of a dip in in pollution. And you it's like, oh my goodness, again, we're trading off people against other factors. And that's just yeah, horribly dehumanizing. Maybe in five years' time, point me to a graph and and say, oh, look, our carbon footprint actually dipped. What was that? Oh, that was COVID-19. Do you remember that? Yeah, okay. In five years' time, maybe point point that out. But right now, with a thousand Italians dying. Sure, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So there's there's another thing that's intensified at a time of of plague. Um, and we've already mentioned here's another thing that's intensified is is is tribalism. Um we've noted the the the danger of ageism. I think we saw that during Brexit, um, because there was a you know quite a quite a split between um the elderly tended to vote more Brexit and um and younger people tended to vote remain. And people were people were saying just a few months ago, let's have another refer referendum in another year when all the old elderly have died off, right? Yeah, yeah. And then we'll get a new and and now and now here is a virus that is um particularly dangerous for the elderly. I do think ageism will be um exacerbated. I think globalism versus nationalism, that old tussle between the everywhere and the somewheres, I think that's going to be exacerbated as we try to figure out, you know, do we shut our borders? And when when like the most kind of cosmopolitan, outsider-friendly country like New Zealand, like shuts its borders because of pandemic, um, you start to see, yeah, I think a lot of globalist versus nationalist kind of issues will come to the fore. I think left versus right politically, I think that will be exacerbated because um some will see a bigger role for the government in this, and some will say, oh no, it's it's more about you know the family or whatever. Um, and you know, and then you'll have the the argument, and those feed into the arguments about how do we tackle the pandemic. Do we do we try to flatten the curve, which means everybody locks down, everybody isolates, or do we do what you know the UK is doing at the moment, um, try to get this hurt this herd immunity going? Um, which I I you know somebody somebody described it on Twitter as it's it's basically like having a chicken pox party. Um where which which you do have, you know, if if your two-year-old has chicken pox and you you say to other mums and dads, you know, why don't why don't you come over come on over and and let Jimmy catch chicken pox.
SPEAKER_01Everyone can get it, yep.
SPEAKER_02Everyone can get it, and we'll have herd immunity. Um but one of the one of the massive problems with with having a massive chicken pox party is what about when they go home to granddad? Um and so that's again why I think we're seeing the government saying, Oh yeah, and by the way, we're gonna have to isolate um all the elderly for four months. Um but then so you get these massive debates between the the flatten the curve people and the herd immunity people. And you know, guys like us who um let me stress are not epidemiologists or virologists.
SPEAKER_01Um uh there seem to be a lot of epidemiologists doing the rounds on Facebook at the moment. They've all come out, all the epidemiologists have come out, they've all written very long Facebook posts to be shared. Yes. Um so and I I see a lot of people going, oh look, you know, we should listen to this. And I think uh we don't know where this information's come from. You don't know who this person is. Yeah, classic kind of fake news stuff.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, and and it is the whole like between the flatten the flatten the curve and herd immunity people, like and who do we believe? Yeah. Um so um I thought Jurgen Klopp was brilliant. Always is. He always is just a man of great common sense. And uh if I'm clever, I'm gonna be able to share Jurgen Klopp with you all. And uh and uh he he was asked his opinion on coronavirus, which kind of shows you everything that's wrong with celebrity culture. But if you think it's ridiculous that a football manager gets asked about coronavirus, so does he. And I I just love the answer that he gave. Let's have a look at what he said.
SPEAKER_00What I don't like about it is that um a very serious thing, a football manager's opinion is important. I don't understand that. I really don't understand it. I could ask you, you're exactly in the same role than I am, so and it's not important about famous people, but famous people say no, you have to we have to speak about the things in the right manner, not uh people with no knowledge like me talking about something like people with knowledge to talk about it and should tell the people do this, do that, do this, and everything will be fine or not. I'm not football managers, I don't understand that politics, uh coronavirus. Why me? I wear a base cap and uh bad shape. Um I'm concerned as much as you, maybe less than I'm not sure. I don't know exactly what your model is of being concerned, but um my opinion is really not important. I'm I live on this planet and I want the planet to be safe, healthy. I wish everybody the best. Absolutely. But my opinion about Corona is not important. If somebody tells me we play football, we play football because I think smarter people said we can play football. I will not make a decision.
SPEAKER_02Actual common sense there.
SPEAKER_01I think the not only is that a great clip, I think the best thing about that is that in your download history underneath, you just have a file called zombies.
SPEAKER_02Was that broadcast the world? Yeah, yeah. And if people want to see my zombies, I think I think it's important that they see my zombies. And um because isn't this fun on Zoom?
SPEAKER_01Uh can you live footage from Eastbourne right now? Yeah. Can people can people submit? Yeah, I definitely yeah, I think it's there. Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_02Is it there, but it doesn't seem to be uh popping up on the uh Yeah, you know it is. It is. It is okay. All right, good. Run Glenn, run. So uh for for those listening in on podcast, you're really missing out. Um I have uh zombies as my um green screen behind me. Anyway. Anyway. Um let me let me take zombies off. Those of a sensitive disposition.
SPEAKER_01There we go.
SPEAKER_02Uh but there we go. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Now I've got your office, couldn't it?
SPEAKER_02Let's just let's just let's just do a test and whether what I say comes across as more learned now that I've got to be. Ah, yeah, that's a good idea.
SPEAKER_01Put some glasses on as well.
SPEAKER_02Virtual glasses. Um Yeah, so in the midst of all these heightened kind of debates between lots of different people, um again, what what gets heightened is this sense of um expertise and who to trust. The world is so complicated and it's complexifying by the minute, it seems. Um therefore, the amount of issues in our lives that we have any competence to pronounce on is just shrinking and shrinking and shrinking and shrinking. And we're just we're just gonna have to trust other people. Um And in the midst of all that, um AJB uh on Twitter asked, um, how would you respond if you're a leader in the church, but you feel that the response to COVID-19 should be very different to the senior leader or to other leaders' plans? Um that's that's interesting. Um As in the leader of the church. So the leader of the church has a particular response and a particular plan uh based on coronavirus and what they're doing. Um if you have some kind of say within the church, but you disagree with what you the overall leader says, uh what should be what should be your response? I don't know. It seems it seems to me like, again, if this is an intensification, um, which I think it is, if it's an intensification of life as normal, then I guess you you do what you'd normally do if you disagree with a leader. You you go to the leader and you present what you feel prayerfully and hopefully you get a hearing, and but at the end of the day, if if they go in a different direction, um, then I I guess you do you do I think need to submit to what the what the what the leader says. Um it's uh yeah, it's difficult. But again, it's it's not a it's not a it's not a different issue uh to every other issue of leadership. It's just we we feel like the stakes are a lot higher. And probably the stakes are a lot higher. But um but yeah, I think one key thing is is hopefully the leader will listen to you, and hopefully you you feel listened to. Um and he, you know, you feel listened to and and the leader um uh is able to explain where they're coming from. And at some stage, you know, I think loyalty begins at the point of disagreement, doesn't it? Um you can you can think you're being loyal to somebody um because you just happen to be walking in the same direction that they're walking in. Um if they're walking in a very different direction, um what what what do you do at that stage? Um yeah, I guess without without further um further understanding of what the particular positions of the various people are, um I couldn't say much further than that, but um good question by AGB. Um other people have asked on Twitter, um Mandy has asked, churches closing and going online versus those choosing not to. Is there a right decision? Um so what I mean, what's what's your church doing at the moment, Paul?
SPEAKER_01Uh at the moment we're still meeting, um, although I because we're Church of England, I think stuff has been passed down from above from you know, from kind of head office and whatnot, saying um, you know, when we do communion, we're no longer doing the wine. Um we had switched from a single cup down to individual glasses, but now they've that seems to have been you know kind of ruled out as well. Um everyone's being encouraged just to wash hands. So children's groups, the children all went downstairs and washed their hands before they went to groups. I think they washed them before they came back. We're being encouraged not to shake hands with people and stuff like that. So I mean it's basically just we're continuing pretty much, well, pretty much continuing as normal, but taking precautions, you know, for safety's sake. But we have also started live streaming the services as well. So I think yesterday was the first time we'd streamed the services. Um so there were some people I know who stayed who were away for whatever reason. I you know, I was in church, you know, I was preaching three times yesterday morning. I wouldn't say I looked around and thought, oh my goodness, there's barely anyone here. You know, it wasn't a noticeable decline. So I think everyone's saying really, until until there's a a stipulation, you know, from maybe the government saying gatherings over a certain size should stop, they'll keep going. You know, and obviously for for a number of churches, even if you know, even if they said, you know, gatherings over a hundred, no more, there'd be a good number of churches that could continue still anyway, even under that.
SPEAKER_03So yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02If people haven't seen uh a document by uh Andy Crouch, um Love in the Time of Coronavirus is uh is excellent. Um let me bring it up uh four people. Um and uh is that up on the screen, Paul? Yeah, yep. Yeah. So um Andy Crouch says at this extraordinary moment, local leaders, people who lead groups of 10 to 1,000 people, have perhaps the greatest opportunity to shape culture in the United States that they have ever had. This is a guide for those of us who are Christian leaders at this moment. Um and here are the two things he he really wants to ramp home. With the arrival of COVID-19 in the United States, we need to change the horizon of possibility extremely rapidly in two fundamental ways. One, we need to change norms of social interaction literally overnight to minimize the transmission of the virus. Um he says, when dealing with pandemics, the measures that will actually make a difference always need to be taken sooner than we think. And then his second point is we need to redirect social energy from anxiety and panic to love and preparation. This crisis presents an extraordinary opportunity to fortify small communities of love and care for our neighbors. That will only happen if we lead in a way that reduces fear, increases faith, and reorients all of us from self-protection to serving others. Um I guess two big things. I uh he says um let's radically change the way that we meet, and let's radically communicate a message of of faith rather than fear. Um and I think in the States, it seemed to me, as I was sort of uh online on Sunday, a lot, a lot, a lot of churches were not meeting and were just doing live streaming and that that sort of thing. Um and I wonder whether that's that's gonna come this way to the UK. I don't I don't know. Um I think Andy Crouch in his article um says, look, cancel everything else. Cancel meetings, cancel um conferences, cancel um anything else. But um worship should be the one thing you prioritize. Um but there are definitely circumstances in which um the loving thing to do is is not to meet and to and to go online. Um so so there's there's that. And I and I think there's an opportunity for um for organizations like ourselves and for and for churches as well, who are more web savvy to to get online and and to speak good news into into these areas. I think I think there's an opportunity right now, um, especially if we happen to go into lockdown. I I think there'll be um there'll be a lot of people who um uh might not be so good at working at home as Paul Feasy is, and and uh might go into YouTube. And uh wouldn't it be nice if they you know encountered messages of of hope and love um here. Um so I I think for a season there there will be um different ways of meeting. I think I think social distancing will mean we do distance socialing. You heard that pun here first, by the way. Social distancing means distance socialing, which is what we're doing right now. Um you're welcome. Um so there are opportunities for that, but uh, but I think that second thing that the Andy Crouch was speaking about, the messages of of hope in the midst of of a world that that could lose its head, um, I think I think that'll be really important. Um what's what should we be saying? What what what are what are our messages? What what what's our distinctive message at this time, Paul?
SPEAKER_03Paul's buffering.
SPEAKER_02Oh, he's just very still. Hello, Paul, how are you there?
SPEAKER_01Okay, there we go. It looks like we've we've come we've come round. Um the thing is the people's response at the moment is entirely sort of understandable if you really don't think there is anything more than you know, this world, this life, and this is the one chance you get, and once it's gone, it's gone. Um whereas you know, we have a different perspective, don't we? So we should have an eternal perspective, and we also should have a perspective not only of kind of well, you know, if we die, we die, and to live is Christ to die is gained, but um uh that even even kind of in uh life now, there's you know, there's much to to to to trust that God is in in control of those things. Um so you know, whereas for some people would look at this and say, everything's out of my control, everyone's out of control, the world is out of control, for us that isn't and it shouldn't be our our view. So there's an opportunity even as we live through it, um as we hopefully will, um to to be a witness in that way, I suppose. Um you know how that how that necessarily comes out. Um I mean, I don't know, it might be different in different circumstances, I suppose, for different people. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's it's really struck me how without Jesus, your life really is boom and bust. Like it really is highs and lows. If if you invest entirely in life under the sun, then when you get the promotion, it's it it is heaven, and when you get sacked, it is hell. Yeah. Um and and when you when you're just toddling along in life, everything's hunky-dory. And when there's uh you know a half a percent chance of dying from an illness, it's it's um the end of the world, you know. Um and this is not to minimize um the pandemic. I think I think it's um like I say, it's it's a it's an intensification of the our mortal condition. Um but I think without without a faith framework, um then there's there's gonna be a much less robust, even response um to tragedy. So, you know, I I said last week that I think what we contribute to the world and what we have that's different from the world is faith and hope and love. Um and I think a world that doesn't know what it believes is gonna have boom and bust, peak and trough, ups and downs um that are gonna be incredibly disorienting. Um so hopefully Christians can model faith in the midst of this, and and I think hopefully Christians can model hope in the midst of this as opposed to to despair. And and the hope is not a glib thing. Um I love that there's a there's a Matt comic. I'll try and find the Matt comic before the end of the broadcast. But um so he's a uh cartoonist for the telegraph, and he's got this um brilliant image of um like a street preacher with a massive placard. Um and uh the placard just says, everything's going to be okay. Uh and there are there's a couple walking past him, and one turns to the other and says, Nutter. Um and just and it's just this idea that when everyone's freaking out and losing their head, um hope is the most countercultural posture to have in the world. Um again, this is not to glibly say, oh, it's all gonna be okay, quesarra sarah. It's um it's facing fully the the fact that um, you know, is my will up to date? Have I, you know, is uh my funeral plans, are they written out so that people like like you know, I'm thinking about these things, okay? So it's not it's not as though um it's not as though I'm blasé about um imminent death or anything like that. Um but in the hope, in in in the in the face of that and in the midst of that, can we still hope? Um and I I think Christians who are both realists and optimists um need to model some of that um where you you face as bad as it could be and you say, um there's something worth living for, let's let's let's keep moving forwards because the future eventually is bright. Sure. Yeah, yeah. And then love, you know, faith, hope, and love. Um, as opposed to hoarding, um, as opposed to self-serving. Um what is what is the loving thing to do? And and maybe the loving thing to do is to stick a note in everyone's door um in your street and start a WhatsApp group and say, you know, how how can we serve one another? And and this is an opportunity for community and to move towards people? Is it um you know, just just basics like you know, don't don't hoard food. And going above and beyond in terms of how are the elderly doing, and especially if they have to self-isolate for four months, you know, how do we how do we serve that community? Um these could be distinctive ways that we um that we So show something different. Pete Thorne on Top Chat has said should I give my April sermon online? If so, should I use zombies? Definitely use zombies. I think you should I think you should deliver it face to face with zombies. That's my advice. Ben Kirkwood has just chat uh uh been on top chat to say, sad that we most likely won't get to see you in Northern Ireland for our Easter week. God bless. Um yeah, lots of things being cancelled right now. So um Friday and Saturday, I was really looking forward to uh a Christian Heritage London conference where we talk about Jesus in all the Bible, and I was gonna get to speak with um Andrew Wilson and Peter Lightheart. Um and unfortunately we've had to cancel that. Sorry if you've bought tickets for that. We will hold them over for um uh the the postponed conference. We're definitely wanting to do that, but that's gonna have to be put off. Uh I've had a mission week in uh the Wirral, the Wirral Gospel Partnership. I was doing a week uh at the end of this month. That's had to be put off. And then at the start of April, uh a mission week in Northern Ireland, that's had to be put off uh as well. So this is the nature of things right now. But as face-to-face proclamation is more difficult, um, online I think will be more important. And uh and so for that reason, guys, if you're on YouTube right now and you haven't yet hit the subscribe button. Hit the sub subscribe button right now and click the bell as well, because um uh subscribe doesn't mean as much as the bell anymore in terms of being notified about our new videos. And uh do give our stuff a like and a share. We're gonna have uh lots more videos coming up uh this week, including tomorrow, uh we're going to be interviewing a guy called Jackie Chan, who is a church leader in Hong Kong. And uh not only have they uh gone through their own um pandemic crisis, they have uh great links to the mainland, to China, and uh he's got some great stories to tell about how this countercultural life of faith and hope and love um is making a difference in China in the midst of those plagues. So um stay tuned tomorrow at 2 p.m. and uh we'll have another chat about this very worked example of how the church is um speaking of Jesus in the midst of the plagues. Um great. Uh just one more question, actually, uh from Twitter. Paul, what would you what would you say about this? Um Sebastian, otherwise known as Sonic Knight. That's such a cool handle, Sonic Knight. Um Sebastian asks, um, can you discuss about the future of the church, consider considering rising secularism? Will this pandemic change things and show that people need something bigger than themselves? What do you reckon?
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, uh it's a difficult one, isn't it? I think um I mean it's not impossible, is it, for people to kind of see us at a wake-up call. My my my cynical nature makes me think that if this is the kind of thing that'll happen, then eventually we'll move past it and people will almost just forget it happened. Yeah. Um you know, we have very short memories. Um, you know, whereas at the moment people might be sitting there kind of, you know, questioning their very existence and you know, what am I in this, you know, in this universe that I might be snuffed out or whatever. I I don't know whether I don't know whether that will last through this. I mean I'm sure I I I don't doubt that there will be some people at least who in in in the light of this it does make them sit up a bit. Whether it will be the uh a kind of something that makes a uh a huge dent at all, I don't know. Um but it's not impossible. Yeah um and I I suppose in in the past there have been occasions where I think we talked about last week about the Roman Empire with the effect that some of the plague had there, but I again it was a very different sort of it was a different time and a different a very different type of disease, you know, probably far more fatal as well.
SPEAKER_02And yeah, they lost a third of the population.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so will this have such an impact in people's minds longer term? I don't know, but yeah, who's to say?
SPEAKER_02It's fearful though, isn't it, to think um coronavirus might not be enough to wake us up. And you're just like, do we do we need a plague that takes out a third of us? Like what what what do we need? Yeah to make us fall out of love with our flesh and the world and the devil, you know? Like what's what's what's what could possibly wake us up? I think in terms of the um the seriousness of of coronavirus, like even if coronavirus um is not as fatal as um we fear, I think I think it does show at least that um if not this virus, then some other virus like it um could well wipe us out, um, or at least you know, wipe out a fair chunk of us. Um and I think yeah, it it it ought to, it ought to make us consider the sinking sand that we've built on. Um but you just wonder like how many storms does God have to send? Um and it's it's just like in the book of Amos, isn't it? In Amos chapter four, the Lord like says, I keep I keep sending plagues to you, and you still don't turn to me. Which is interesting in in the you know, with a modern 21st century mentality, we we feel like, oh, if God sends plagues, then we we would turn away from him.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But obviously the the correct response to the storm is to flee the sinking sand and to turn to the rock. Um and the Lord keeps sending plagues in the hope that we would turn to him. It's the same in Revelation. Again, the whole world is sent, you know, as as the seven angels pour out the poor the the seven bowls, that they are plagues and they're meant to make us repent and to turn to the Lord. Um But I guess the the good news is that for those taking refuge in Jesus, there are opportunities right now to know his nearness, to know his closeness, um opportunities to to really take uh eternal hope um to heart uh and not to take it for granted. Um and and I think opportunities to reach out to others who who you know, as as Spurgeon said during the time of cholera outbreaks in in London, he said there was little scoffing then. Which which I think is interesting. I I I I wonder I wonder whether the sorts of evangelistic and apologetic questions that get asked will be different. There'll be, you know, how could God allow this to happen sort of thing? But at least with those sorts of questions, um you're dealing with pastoral matters and matters that get you to the gospel a lot a lot quicker. Uh I wonder if there'll be a lot less scoffing, anyway. Um as people realize how how weak we really are. Just some thoughts, anyway. But um uh guys, thank you so much uh for all your questions on TopChat. Um uh you can leave questions on the video proper as this uh ends up being posted. Spartan Theology says, first day working from home, not sure how well this will go. All the best. All the best, Spartan Theology. Let us let us know how you get on. Uh because we'll be doing the same thing again uh tomorrow at 2 p.m. when we've got Jackie Lamb uh as our special guest. And uh also later on in the week, we're gonna be talking to uh Nate Morganlock and Barry Cooper, the people who brought you Life Explored and Discipleship Explored, uh, and James Carey, uh, who's brought you things like the God Particle and uh Monk's Tale and all that kind of good stuff. Uh comedy writer for the BPC, James Carey. Um, but uh that'll do us for now. Paul, thank you so much uh for joining us. No problem. Always a pleasure. Never a chore. Never a chore. Uh except it is, it's work for you. This is work. But you make it look easy. Um good.
SPEAKER_01I need to get back to Netflix.
SPEAKER_02So uh sorry to disturb you. Uh and uh we'll disturb you all again tomorrow at 2 p.m. So stay tuned for us talking to Jackie Lamb. But until then, God bless. See you soon.
SPEAKER_01Take care, bye bye.