The Speak Life Podcast. Sharing Jesus in everyday life. Today on the LiveCast, and as more scandals come to light, we talk about why the church is just the worst. Hello, welcome to the live cast. Sorry, we've just got a couple unawares there.
SPEAKER_01Consummate professional.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely always, always pros, total pros. Like pros, but at a very amateur amateur level.
SPEAKER_01We're the amateur pros.
SPEAKER_00Dear me, yes. Hello. Well, who are you? I'm Paul Feasy, and you are I'm Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_01And like I said, consummate prose. But at least it's working.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, dear me. It's working on my faffing bit at the beginning that we were talking about.
SPEAKER_01This is the uh preamble banter. Yes. Annoying preamble banter. Some would say some would call it. Some would call it natural. Others find it endearing, don't they? No. No, nobody finds it endearing. Uh do tell us how you find uh the live cast on uh live chat. If you're listening on the podcast, obviously you've just got to sit there and listen. But if you are on YouTube right now, you can uh message in. Um and Kez Hulse has already done an emoji. Is that a wave emoji?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I believe it is. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Or maybe it's like an Air 5 kind of she's waiting for us to join her. Uh yeah, do get onto uh the live chat and ask your questions. Uh we are here every Monday at 2 p.m. Yep. Discussing uh what's news in the world and what's new with Speak Life. Uh one thing that's uh new with Speak Life is we've just done a video for uh our good friends at Christianity Explored. They've revamped their website, ChristianityExplored.org, and they asked me to do a two-minute video on what's so special about Jesus. So let's have a look at that, and then we'll tell you more about ChristianityExplored.org. Jesus is utterly unique. He's God and man all at once. In the history of the world, there have been big god religions. Such gods are far away, transcendent, never visiting the earth. Or there have been small god religions. Think of the Greek or the Norse gods. They show up, but they are petty and they squabble. They are not ultimate reality themselves. They are gods with a little g, and they show themselves to be worse than humans. But then there's Jesus. He is both God and man. He claims to be the great I am, the Lord of the Jewish scriptures himself. He's older than the universe, he's the savior of mankind, he'll wrap everything up at the end of history, he is ultimate reality, he is the fountain of life and being, and he's one of us. He joins in a human family, he joins in a human history. The God who made the world has left footprints on this world. That's unique. And that combination of his greatness and his lowliness pervades everything about Jesus. He is the king who serves as the lowest slave, he is the holy one reaching out to lepers, he's the righteous one who feasts with sinners, he's the pure one embraced by prostitutes. And on the cross where he dies, we see those things coming together: his greatness and his lowliness, his kingliness and his servant heart. Here is the fountain of life, and he proves he's the fountain of life by pouring himself out with every drop of his blood. This is unparalleled and unprecedented. In the big god religions, such gods would never stoop to the cross. In the little gods religions, such gods are too petty for the cross. Jesus is unique. There on the cross we see the true God, one worthy of our trust, our worship, our everything. So that is why Jesus is so unique, so special, and uh I thought we'd uh start off with that uh for a start to to plug Christianityexplored.org, the new website, do go and uh check that out. Wonderful resources there, and uh their find a church uh link is really, really helpful, especially if someone's just moved to a new area. What churches like believe in the Bible and believe in evangelism? Well, probably the churches that are running Christianity Explored might be a good first um point of contact, and they've got a terrific uh database there, and their Find a Church uh search bar is uh is really useful. Their resources uh are very useful too, and there was uh my go at uh a two-minute video on what makes Jesus so special. Um but I thought we'd also start this episode with that because we're going to dive into some um some very heavy material about where church goes wrong and where people in the name of Jesus have done horrendous, horrendous damage. Um but it's just always good to remind ourselves of who Jesus is. Um, he is the holy man who hugs lepers, and he is the pure man who is hugged by prostitutes, he is the righteous man who feasts with sinners, uh, he is God and man, and he comes to our pit to bring us to his heaven. Um He is awesome and we love him. Uh and however else you want to judge uh Christians, um, and we ought to judge Christians, we ought to um hold them to very high standards. Uh whatever we say about Christians who fail, we can't say that about Jesus. Uh He is our Lord, He is our life. Uh, and it's right that we start by thinking about Him, but it's also right that we uh respond to kind of church scandals, and we've been hit by um quite a few of them uh in recent days. Um So let me take you on a little bit of a journey that I've had as various stories have broken and come to light. Um so the Jonathan Fletcher scandals have been broke breaking over the past few months, but but obviously the the the actual um abuse has been going on for years, decades even, and and the cover-ups have been going on uh for quite some time as well. Um But my my kind of response sometimes to those kind of um uh abuse scandals is to sort of think of, oh, that's over off in a corner. Um those are some kind of circles, and I and I know lots of people in those circles, and I I once you know heard Jonathan Fletcher speak and that sort of thing, but I kind of think he's not he's not exactly my tribe, so I'm cool, right? And there have been many people who um have kind of distanced themselves from what went on at Emmanuel Wimbledon and and through Jonathan Fletcher and and through the Ewan camps, these Titus Trust camps that are for um public schoolboys. And it could be all too easy to say, ah, that's just posh Anglicans. Um and in fact, one tweet that has not aged very well at all and has since been deleted along with his account was a tweet from Steve Timmons who said regarding Jonathan Fletcher, ah, we've been saying these sorts of things about the bullying nature of, you know, posh Anglicans for years.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then, of course, the next story to break is Steve Timmys himself being fired from the heading up Act 29 in the States. He took over from Mark Driscoll, who himself was fired for bullying. And now Steve Timmons has, and he's stepped down from leadership at the crowded house church. And so you you kind of go from this this on the one hand, oh, that's just a problem with posh-Anglicans. I know, be free church, you know, or be be the iconoclasts that you know, I I read Total Church back in the day, and I thought it I thought it was very refreshingly iconoclastic about the kind of the stayed, um, conformist kinds of churches. Let's do total church. Well, okay, but you go across into that stream and there's abuse there. But then I got thinking, literally, as as um as Timmons uh and and various allegations of of bullying sort of come to light there, I literally thought of Larch, which is a community that was started by a Catholic man, Jean Vanier, who was Canadian living in France, and he started these communities that were not about abuses of power, they're actually about the inversion of power, where you actually learn from the disabled. You live with the with you live with those who are intellectually and physically handicapped, but not as though you're giving them a hand up, but as though they are your brother, your friend, and your teacher. And it's as much about learning from the disabled as it is about they learn from you. And I actually thought, you know, when the the the scandals of of bullying were breaking, ah, wouldn't it be great to be in a different kind of church culture, like the Larch culture. And then over the weekend, there was another uh headline that broke, uh, and it was about a church abuse scandal. And so interestingly, I was just sort of thumbing through I think it was I think it was Twitter, and I I saw a picture with regards to the church abuse scandal, and I thought, oh, that's that's a funny picture of Jonathan Fletcher. That that's not quite got his likeness, and then oh no, it's somebody else. Okay, it's Jean Vanier. And then over the weekend, uh all sorts of uh very worrying um uh reports of him inappropriately dealing with and sexually abusing six adult um able-bodied um women uh o over the course of many decades, and you just think, Where can you go? You know? You think you get get out of the abuse thing by moving from the posh Anglicans, and then it's in the non-conformist world, and then you okay, maybe the Catholics have got it run, the Catholics have not got it right. There's just abuse everywhere, you know. How how how have these sort of scandals been been striking you, Paul?
SPEAKER_00Um well, I mean I saw about the Larch one over the weekend, and um if I'm honest, I I didn't I'd not heard of Larch. I didn't know the uh Jean Vanier, is that he's not sure.
SPEAKER_01Vanier, uh V A N I E R.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so um I wasn't really aware of those. Uh I wasn't really aware of that as a movement or or him as a person. Um I mean any of these things when I see them I just find it incredibly disheartening. I just think, you know, aren't you know like not another one and and particularly when they're they're always they always become quite high profile, you know, what with Twitter these days, you know, um, or some of them have made the news, haven't they? Um so I mean the thing that struck me, and maybe we'll talk about this a bit more later, particularly with that one, was the number of people saying how much they looked up to this guy, he was a bit of a spiritual hero to them and stuff, and and almost it rocked a lot of people because they were saying, you know, surely not even you know, not not this guy, you know, like it it's like almost like it seemed like like I saw him described, or he he had been described as a living saint. Right, you know, people said if you can't yeah if you can't trust this guy, yeah, who can you trust? I didn't know about the Timmys one um until this morning when we were kind of talking about this this whole kind of thing. Um but I'd read Total Church and stuff and remember it being I mean I don't remember all the details, but I certainly kind of understood the you know, remember the concepts behind it and things. Um the Fletcher one had I obviously we talked about it on here before, I think, um when it first kind of broke. Um and for me that was one of the it had a the kind of effect that so I when I came to work down in the south east, I wasn't at all aware of these kind of circles of conservative evangelicals and you know the kind of public school end of the spectrum. Yes. And I just kind of found myself in it, um, or can you know connected to people who are part of it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and so a lot of what I was kind of reared on, so to speak, in terms of um, you know, this is what ministry looks like and this is what it means to do church and yada yada yada, um came from people who had come out of those kind of you and Lymington Rushmore circles and things. And honestly, the effect of with the Jonathan Fletcher thing for me was to sit there and think like if these guys have come from those circles, can I really trust anything I've all these things I think you know are true things about how we should be doing X, Y, and Z.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Can we really rely on those? And and also in those circles, and and this is obviously a sweeping generalization, there is a there's a bit of a sense in those circles, they're quite a closed group, right, and they tend to be quite disparaging about the other groups, about how other groups do church and ministry and stuff. So they'll be very negative, particularly about a a kind of hillsong type church.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00And it just made me think like, really, you guys can any of you really be on your high horse about anything? Right. And actually, maybe a load of these guys that you're so disparag disparaging about, maybe actually if you could be so blind about these things, who's to say you're not blind on all these other things? So in a sense, it kind of rock, even though I'm not connected to Jonathan Fletcher really, it kind of rocked me in a kind of what i in in essence I kind of just went think, I've stuffed a lot of this now, I've got to reassess.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00You know, which is you know why it, you know, talking about the the Larch thing, and I said we'd talk about it a bit more, but I suppose it's coming up now, the um the way we kind of idolise people. Yes. So like I said, I didn't know this guy, there's John Vanier Larch. Um and part of it was a I was quite I was disheartened by the what had happened, but also disheartened at the number of people s acting as if everything was shaken by it. And I just think like we we've got to stop putting our our our faith almost in human leaders, yeah. You know, and I think that's probably happens more now with Twitter and social media than it probably did in the past, although it was a thing, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01But it it's it's almost inescapable, isn't it? That of of course someone who's been some kind of spiritual father to you or mother to you who who has their family to you, and and if they come out as, you know, the the they have feet of clay, um, it can be really psychologically difficult to to deal with that. Uh I I I know a woman um who was at a church where the vicar, it turns out, um uh he actually went he went to prison for ten years for uh abusing several children, and the the allegations stretch back many, many decades. Um but she had been in this man's church for twenty years, and she actually went to his trial as he was being um uh you know, uh as he was on trial for these uh sex abuse allegations. And she came back from the trial and she heard, you know, witness statement after witness statement after witness statement, and she she sort of said, But but you know, Satan can lie. Satan can get in and infect people's memories and twist memories and and and and I said, Well, w what if they're telling the truth? What if what if all these witnesses are actually telling the truth? Yeah. And then she just stopped and she paused and she broke down in tears and she said, But he baptized all my children. And and there was that just that that it's very human to have that sense of affinity with someone else, and to and to therefore, when they fail, to to not have a category for them being a sinner. And and then we're into all sorts of trouble because of course there is all the motivation you need to do a cover-up, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And if you're willing to say all the witnesses are lying and Satan is blinding them, oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, yeah, and it's just it's just a warrant for someone to get away with anything, isn't it, if they can instill that kind of belief in someone.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. But I mean it it cuts it's kind of close to home, though. You know, when again when you you sort of point the finger at the partial Anglicans, you point the finger at the non-conformists, you point the finger at the Catholics, but actually you just can't escape it. Um one thing that all of this has done for me is to make me think, um, have I been complicit in spiritual abuse? Um whether actively or whether allowing it. You know, it's have I been a part of spiritual, have I experienced spiritual abuse? And now I look back at all sorts of experiences in my life and think, oh no, that was definitely that was bullying plus, right?
SPEAKER_00Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And uh hopefully these sorts of discussions can make us think, oh no, hang on, that's not right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And we can name it and put a put a finger on it. And uh and I know you've had uh similar experiences, you've been thinking about these uh instances of spiritual abuse, they're not just out there in the culture, they're not just in other churches.
SPEAKER_00No, I mean and uh i i I I think the particularly think about the Timmys one, where he's been accused of this spiritual abuse um kind of bullying domineering, um, you know, in the Christianity Today article and stuff, it was talking about how, you know, there were maybe families in the church and there'd be an impromptu church you know, church barbecue in part of their community and they didn't go because they had family things planned and they were, you know, kind of being taken aside and told, you know, what are you doing and you're not on board with the mission and all kinds of things. Um and I said the the difficulty is, or it can feel like with some of those things, maybe that that one's probably a more extreme example, but at what point does it move from you have a boss who's just a bit of a jerk to a boss who is a bully or a a s you know a spiritual abuser? Yeah. Um but you know, as I read some of the things on that list, I mean it took me back to you know one of my first roles in the church where um actually when I look back on it, I think, yeah, probably the person who I worked for was well they were in some way a bully, you know. Um I think there was also a number of other things involved that you know there was mental illness involved and stuff, but someone carrying on working through that. Um But you know, having to you know, I was given kind of written warnings and things and you know, I eventually resigned my position. Um you know, we're we're talking about uh Because you you tried to kind of blow the whistle a little bit and and sort of go to the PCC and Yeah, so I mean I'd kind of been called up on a few few things with this disciplinary which which I felt were unfounded anyway, but I kind of went to defend myself, but also a number of things that occurred throughout the year, both to myself and to parishioners that I felt people need to know about. And some people some people did know about it already. Um so I kind of brought it up i in a letter I wrote to the PCC when I was, you know, kind of there before them, um to kind of say, look, this is going on and it it shouldn't go on. Um and the person who you know I was bringing this kind of thing against, you know, basically pretty much had to be physically restrained and stuff. And you know, that night I kind of basically I just went home and I my job was over, you know, I didn't have to work any notice. I was you know, they paid me to not come back, basically.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um but you know, that was a well at the time you just think, oh, it was a terrible experience, and obviously it was a terrible experience, but when you start to read it and think you kind of in the context of some of these things, you go, yeah, actually there was an element of abuse there. Even if someone was ill, yeah, you know, they shouldn't have been in those missions. And the interesting thing was that I think within the congregation it was quite split. I think some people on the PCC, I think there were some who would have defended that person to the hilt.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00And others who had already seen there were issues but didn't really want to didn't really want to face it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um what does that what does that do to you? So like you find yourself the next morning without a job, and you're like, what was that all about? That must have left you spinning.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, I mean the thing it does is it just leaves you I mean, ca the because the way it ended was that I was obviously I kind of paid for the month that I was supposed to have worked, but you know, they said it was probably not a good idea to come back in, um, which was fine, and had to return things. Given that your boss had to be physically restrained. Yeah, so they probably know maybe working an extra month together might not work out so well. Um but one of the stipulations of or one of the things that I was told when I left by the person was that um I was to have no contact with any member of the church, past or present, and not to enter the parish, um, which as far as I was concerned was I was like it was nothing you know you can't stop me speaking to members of the congregation or entering this area. Um and but there was a threat of legal action that you know that if you do I'll you know your letter is libelous and so on, yada yada yada, even though it wasn't a public uh thing. Um so every time you get a letter through the door you're thinking, is this a thing from some solicitor somewhere? You know, and I had phone calls from this person as well, you know, saying, I hear you've been back. Um gosh. You know, and you're just yeah, and so it leaves you very jumpy. And even then, you know, when I went to work in Crowborough, like for a good while you'd get, you know, you'd find you know, something in your pigeonhole or an email, you'd see your emails come in, and you just think before you it got anywhere near it, like, wow, what's this gonna be? This is gonna be some kind of attack on you. So it does kind of leave you kind of in this kind of slightly bemused position.
SPEAKER_01Hypervigilant and you know, perhaps mistrustful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But I don't think at the time I wouldn't have looked at it and you know, in my head it wasn't the language of the day to talk about spiritual abuse. No, it wasn't you know, kind of this is kind of twelve years ago or so. Yeah. Um so you wouldn't have thought of it like that. I would have just thought like this is this is a not a good person to work for. Yeah, basically.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But I think they're el no, I look back at it, I think there are probably elements of other things going on.
SPEAKER_01So And even if we can't pass out, like to what degree is it personality, to what degree is it their culture, to what degree are they just a jerk, to what the degree are they going through a tough time themselves? To what degree are they abusing their spiritual authority? Um and there might be all sorts of like different things in play, but the real issue is like even if you can't pass out what is going on in this behavior, the the real issue is when you make it known to the PCC, how do they react? When you make it known to those in authority, what do they then do about that? Are you are you even okay is it even okay to name that this made me feel a bit yucky? And I don't even know why I felt yucky after our interaction yesterday, but can we talk about it? And if you can't even raise that with without, you know, you you get sacked and you have to sign a non-disclosure agreement, you know. Um I mentioned the non-disclosure agreement because that that was part of the story with uh Steve Timmons at Acts 29. Five employees at Acts 29 made uh allegations against Steve Timmons and about you know o overbearing styles of leadership and and and various allegations and s found that rather than the trustees listening to those um they were all fired and had to sign non-disclosure agreements that day and they were out on out on their ear.
SPEAKER_00Which is just yeah I mean it's it's it's one thing it's not well I want to say it's one thing to fire them you know it you you you sh obviously you can't just fire people for those things. But you know I first the reason I I came across this on Twitter was people talk about NDAs, non-disclosure agreements in relation to churches and I was completely bemused as to why anyone was talking about this. Yes. So I was thinking what on earth kind of church makes you sign a non-disclosure agreement. Right. Yeah like what on earth could have gone on yeah that you would want to cover something up that much. Right. And then it seems like it was related to this Timmist story it come off the back of that. And particularly that it wasn't it wasn't just please keep this quiet but it was you know or you won't get your health insurance you know that kind of stuff. And you just think man what kind of church is behaving like this?
SPEAKER_01Well exactly uh Pete Thorne on um TopChat has said this is horrible I've had bad bosses but nothing on that scale and um and and you know Pete works in the secular worlds um and it is so true that I think you know those who work in the secular world um are used to working alongside people with a whole lot more professionalism than those are I think as well in the professional world and I I mean again I've not really worked outside the church in like an office environment where I've had others you know like with the HR department and all that stuff.
SPEAKER_00But I would presume and you can people that they're listening in or watching can tell me if I'm wrong that if you have a bad boss or someone who really is you know maybe a bully abusive you do have places like HR or unions or whatever it might be different that you can go to.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But that's although we might say that should be the case in the church, I think what happens is with particularly with leaders in the church is there is this level they're on which is they're on a bit of a pedestal.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00So there might be structures you can go to but there's this kind of oh but they're a spiritual leader. You shouldn't rock the boat or you shouldn't you know they've been called and now you're going to pull their ministry apart. There's this kind of And there are verses about not entertaining accusations from you know just a leader and you know it's easy to see how people would say oh best not to you know go in on this or Yes.
SPEAKER_01And partly it's a function of the difference between you know church's family and church's business. Church is not a business and brothers we are not professionals as such as John But actually within families abuse can happen all the more because there's all sorts of more you know emotional manipulation that goes on within family settings. Much more likely to happen if you're not allowed to question the person at the top right Lee Fernie has commented getting people to promise loyalty is common to the Fletcher, Timmons and James McJames Macdonald scandals. James MacDonald was a pastor was it harvest life in uh in Chicagoland area I think is anyone yeah something like that.
SPEAKER_00Is that the one where I am I thinking of the there was one where like some pretty pretty serious like like violence violence and murder?
SPEAKER_01Am I just am I making that up but there was something like allegedly all sorts um going on. We need healthy cultures says Lee healthy cultures where disagreement is not equated with disloyalty. Yeah can you disagree with people?
SPEAKER_00And I mean I was saying to you earlier as well and and you touched on it here that the the r it's about how people respond to these things. And it's so we're talking we're reflecting on our own experiences but then it makes me reflect on myself and think like well you know when I was in eight years of youth work leadership you think you know boy what was I like as a leader? Did I did I ever do this or do that? Did I ever come across in that way? You know and I would be mortified if someone came to me and said hey you know when we were doing youth work with you actually we thought you were you were just overbearing overbearing and domineering and you didn't listen to us. All those things. I would be mortified if someone came and said you know we think you're a bully. And now there's there's two possibilities well there's maybe more than two but there are a number of possibilities of what's happened there. Maybe I was or perhaps I wasn't but for whatever reason they felt there was something. Either way my response has to be let's talk further. My goodness I'm you know I'm so sorry. Even if I didn't bully them this isn't a real life example by the way them I still want to say like they they have felt like they've been subjected to something in some way shape or form and you've got to respond and be like well I'm really sorry you know let's let's try and work out what's going on here and not just go shut up, clear off, you're out.
SPEAKER_01Which which is the natural fleshly we all want to defend ourselves don't we and just be like no like you're the problem yeah absolutely it reminds me of what Graham Linehan once said in a totally unrelated way Graham Linehan author of Father he was a writer behind Father Ted and behind the IT crowd and and all the comedies you've y you love were written by Graham Linehan a wonderful Irish um comedian and on sitcom geeks uh which is a uh a podcast with James Carey um he was once talking about the editing process and when when an editor comes and starts like trying to mess with your text you're Graham Linehan and like you you win BAFTAs. Like you you win awards and who's this who's this dude you know who's like offering me notes yeah um and you can get this like if anyone critiques you you're just like you don't you don't know what you're talking about you know for I am Graham Linehan and in and but he was so humble to say um no even if you don't agree with their particular suggestion what is the note behind the note? What is the criticism behind the criticism? Because they they might have misdiagnosed something but they've noticed something in your script that doesn't quite work for them. And maybe they suggested something that really doesn't work either but if they've noticed something that's worth examining. Yeah and so what whatever whatever critique they've brought you're meant to go away and think there's a reason why they made that critique and I need to go and work on that. And so you know that that's just a you know a good writing tip what's the note behind the note but but as well pardon me um but as well you know when when people are are critiquing our leadership or people are critiquing the the way that we just carry ourselves um eve even if they've got the total wrong end of the stick about you know what you intended by that comment or whatever it whatever it was, it needs addressing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What's the critique behind the critique? And and there's got to be something to talk about. But if no one is able to even bring these things up then we will just bat down the hatches and and and on we go. So we we've come up with with ten lessons um and we're gonna have to rattle through them um as uh ways that we can respond to these uh church scandals and uh if you're watching on YouTube you'll be able to be able to see uh the ten up on the screen and uh and the first lesson we want to draw attention to is that abuse takes many forms. We've already said how you know the posh Anglicans do their abuse in one way and the muscular church planters do their abuse in a different way and the mystical Catholics who want to accompany people in in that very close quarters kind of way that can go wrong in a different kind of shape. There's different shapes to our different kinds of church cultures and there are different kinds of sins that can be supercharged by the power structures that are around us and some people struggle with sex, some with money, some with power, some with fame. And when you add in the power differentials between those in leadership and those under them sometimes you'll have a a kind of a power abuse and we call that spiritual abuse and sometimes we'll have a a sexual problem that's that's magnified by the power differential or sometimes there'll be a money problem somebody squirreling the money away so there are many kinds of sins um and that that's really interesting to me because like I'm not really a Driscoll kind of a person you know Mark Driscoll Mars Hill You're not you're pathetic that's that's my Driscoll impression. You know and and you know I'm not the shouty guy sure um who can you know bench press a truck and you know barbecue and I can't even barbecue.
SPEAKER_00That's that's I'm so not a Driscoll I changed a tap the other day so there you go.
SPEAKER_01That's that that is the sum total of my masculinity too but but my danger is to think well I'm not like Driscoll so I can't be I can't abuse people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01No I totally can because there's lots of different ways. Sure. And there are many different kinds of people maybe you're not the alpha male personality but social scientists have done all sorts of different experiments on people that are horrifying like the the the Stanford prison experiments where they just get students to play act you know different roles and you're you're gonna be the guard and I'm gonna be the prisoner and let's just let's just play act and see how this goes. It goes to hell. Yeah it goes students for you it goes straight to and they they had to call off the Stanford prison experiment after like two days three days or something because it had literally descended into an abyss into an abyss and and because it takes all different it it it only took one very domineering character but it took a whole bunch of lackeys to go along with that. Sure and to form this you know this toxic culture. So it's not it's not just the alpha males who need to look out it's it's it's all the yes men around him. You know um I agree you know I'm the I'm the power hungry you know no but so it takes abuse takes many forms um and there are many different kinds of of people and it and sometimes how we need to critique ourselves is am I complicit in structures that are abusive? Maybe I'm not the one driving the abuse. Sure. But maybe I'm just content to turn a blind eye and yet or rationalise or justify. Right.
SPEAKER_00You know easy easy to do, isn't it? It really is. And I think there's been elements of that in some of the stories you know we've seen coming out of people kind of saying oh well it was just because this person was you know people just need to remember like so and so is like X, Y, and Z and yada yada yada and you kind of go, are you just trying to ex that the kind of thing you told yourself in your head to make it okay rather than rock the boat?
SPEAKER_01Yes. And fascinatingly with with Timmons and Fletcher because you you could say with Fletcher oh you you don't understand this kind of militaristic posh public school kind of persona. That's that's that's that's the way they roll. Sure. Which is kind of what Steve Timmons's tweet was all about when he said you know we've been warning people about this kind of you know culture but then you you could have a kind of a a gruff you know kind of persona as well you're the you're just the straight talking you know forthright Yorkshireman or whatever, right? Sure. And that and we we're just constantly excusing you know and is is there a point where we can say ah can we actually talk about I I know I know that in your circles this is kind of but it makes me feel like this can we have a conversation about that but abuse takes uh many different forms. Point number two of our ten lessons is um power is seductive. C.S. Lewis wrote about the inner ring um as uh in in all walks of life it's not just a church thing but in all walks of life there are there are those who are at the center of things they're the movers and shakers and everyone wants to get into the inner ring and you'd sell your kidney just to get into the inner ring. And part of being in the inner inner ring is is kind of sucking up to the others in the inner ring and part of it is excluding those who don't quite belong.
SPEAKER_00And power is always sucking you up the hierarchy. Yeah and I think like we we just need to be aware with that that when as Christians we're not immune to that in any way shape or form so you know my experience would s would be again coming down into the where uh where we are now um there are just there's what I notice in in Christian circles that you do get a lot of kind of name dropping like so and so and I don't know any Christians so I'm never I'm always completely oblivious to anyone who's not anyone with no but um I mean I talked in a sermon a while back about going to Christian conferences and the thing that always made me feel quite uncomfortable was what I what I described as kind of Christian brown nosing. Yeah where you'd got your speakers for the week who are kind of you know the vaguely on the Christian celebrity ladder, you know and even people who you know from our circles who you would say probably have good Bible teaching and understand about you know the the week and you know the nobility of the week and not just lording it over. It felt to me like some people really just wanted to get on the table, you know, sit round the dinner table with the speaker and they could get their foot in a door somewhere and you would see them going and do that. And I mean I can honestly say like I mean that made me very uncomfortable probably as I think back about it I don't think I've ever felt more on the outside of something than I have in Christian circles. Like Christian circles have the ability to be the just form that clicky inner circle more than anything else I think in some ways. I don't think I've ever really experienced that hugely outside the church.
SPEAKER_01It's more in the church that there are really are these these are the people you must know and you're either in with them or you're not you know of course the the the waters are slightly coloured for both you and me because we we we're kind of professional Christians as well. And I mean we're obviously massive celebrities in our own right you know I wasn't going there but we are we we basically are but um I mean Jesus in Luke 14 I mean isn't this isn't this revolutionary Luke 14 from verse 7 now Jesus told a parable to those who were invited when he noticed how they chose the places of honour saying to them when you're invited by someone to a wedding feast do not sit down in a place of honor lest someone more distinguished than you be invited by him. And he who invited you both will come and say to you, give your place to this person and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place. It's the inner ring like totally at work. But says Jesus when you're invited go and sit in the lowest place so that when your host comes he may say to you friend move up higher then you'll be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled and he who humbles himself will be exalted. And of course Jesus is the one who took the lowest place and was exalted to the highest place but but he is because he's the servant.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so for us the the one who takes the lowest station is our role model. And so we shouldn't be trying to climb the greasy pole should we?
SPEAKER_00No at all.
SPEAKER_01I I've sometimes told the story um on here about I was at a conference and I was uh I'm gonna I'm gonna use some sort of crass generalizations so that I can anonymize people. Okay. In order in the in the name of anonymity I was at this conference and I went to a seminar at which let's say he was a C list celebrity Christian. Okay. Okay. Just just for those at home I put myself as as a a P or a Q. I'm on I'm on the P or the Q. Paul's a J, but uh this guy this guy was probably a C List it was quite high he was a he was a C-list celebrity Christian. I'd just been reading his book and I was very interested in and I had some questions for him and so after the seminar I started a conversation with him and and he said oh are you are you are you going to are you going to lunch now? Let's let's go to lunch together and so we were walking along the corridor and I was asking him these questions and he was halfway through a sentence in answering me and he spotted we both spotted an A-list Christian celebrity. Right top of the A-list right and he went said his name name and the other one said can I have lunch with you and he said sure get it get in the lift and so they both got in the lift the sentence was still mid-sentence hanging they both got into the list the A lister and the C lister and the doors shut and I was just left alone in the corridor and I just thought there's the inner ring at work. It's just mortifying but then but then I think other I'm su I'm sure I have I done stuff like that have I been to something I know we've probably all done it that's the thing and then you know so power is seductive we've just gotta be we've got to be on this power is seductive number three tribalism is rife. And that that's kind of the point like the this woman I know who was in the church of an abuser who went to prison for 10 years she could not believe that he could ever do wrong because he baptized my children you know and and and so and we become willfully blind to the sins of our own tribe.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Because our our tribe is by definition right.
SPEAKER_00We're not we're not like those bad guys down the down the road you know the thing is with the bad guys down the road all you see is the bad whereas with the people who do bad in our own community you tend to know you've seen the the good they do as well often. And so you start saying oh but you know he's they're such a nice bloke you know or they you know X Y and Z and and I think as well the reason we get part of it is we feel that if we admit that maybe our tribe has done wrong it somehow weakens our tribe you know right and it's all about the tribe right yeah we've got to keep the tribe yeah we've we must keep the tribe you know so yeah it's I think it's very and the truth be damned.
SPEAKER_01We must keep the tribe the truth be damned you know yeah absolutely it's so human. You know Jonathan Haidt talks about in the righteous mind how how we all orbit around these little totem poles of value and we are the tribe and they bind and blind us. They bind us together but they blind us to to everything that's wrong about our tribe.
SPEAKER_00Do you think like one of the difficulties in it as well in in you know when when it comes out that someone's done something wrong, you can decry it and just be like, oh it's terrible is there an element there though of just um the easy thing is to just wash your hands of them. You know like you know and that's tricky if l let's imagine it was someone you worked with and you were so you you had a professional relationship but you were also friends to just be like you know that that's really hard actually as well isn't it? Because you're kind of like well how is what is the right thing to do there?
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00You know obviously you want to condemn what they do. Yeah but not be like hey it's nothing to do with me I barely knew them. You know like it's messy. Um it's messy. I think there are difficulties there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Thankfully we have we have this doctrine of of simultaneously righteous and a sinner you know that that someone you know someone can and you can love the sinner and hate the sin.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01And there is definitely like Sarah Silverman did this incredible um short video to camera where she was just speaking about Louis C.K. And Louis C.K. as saying she hated I hated what she what he had but I still love him as a person. And that was tearing her apart. But it was so interesting that she was just articulating this truth love the sin, hate the sinner. But we also in these contexts need to not only um love the sinner, we need to love the victims of the sinner and protect those victims and protect whatever future victims they might be. And so we we we we can't just soothe all our friends who happen to be you know victimizers and say oh there is forgiveness. Well of course there's forgiveness but how how do we stop um systemic structures uh perpetuating the abuse um and we need to be we need to be wise to the tribalism that's just rife. Number four um number four these ten lessons that we can learn from church abuse is the world is often right um and I I think if we're if we're just totally in a tribalistic mindset then our tribe good your tribe bad right and that's that's all we do and we spiritualise that to say ah Israel right Babylon bad ah but then you read the prophets and here is Israel why israel why why is Babylon knocking on the door and and about to overrun them and sack the temple and carry them off into Israel? Why? Because of Israel's sin. Sure and Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon is actually an instrument in the Lord's hands to bring righteous judgment on the people of God so sometimes sometimes the world is bringing righteous critique against the church and devastating the church and God is behind that. But if we're in a tribalistic mindset well it's it's war so they must be wrong and we must be right. Sure. And every time the world tries to to crack open a sex abuse case we close ranks because they've got to be wrong because they're the world.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it's it's heinous it's absolutely heinous no what if the world is the Lord's instrument in Judging us. And what if what if, as we're about to say in point number five, what if the church is the worst, right? Um, I think we've got it we've got to get it into our heads that for the church in exile, Babylon is often more righteous than we are. Sure. And that's that's true throughout the Bible. You know, Abraham is raised up, and then the very next thing he does is pimp out his wife to Pharaoh, lie about her being his sister, and then when Pharaoh finds out, he was like, I wasn't gonna take her if she was your wife, you know, and he he turns out to be far more righteous than Abraham does. Yeah. And we need we need to wrap it around our head. You know, some of these journalists, investigative journalists, foot-in-the-door journalists, are more righteous than the church, covering it up. And they they are doing the work of the that church pastors should be doing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Even as they overrun us, you know, and even as it feels like we're being desecrated, it feels like the temple's being torn down. Well, that's what Babylon does to Israel, but is Israel deserves it.
SPEAKER_00And we should be the ones who who who know better. Like, I mean, it's absolutely the case, isn't it? These things happen in all organizations.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00You know, regardless of religion or whatever country you're in, doesn't really matter. Yeah. These things go on everywhere. But that's not an excuse for the church, because the church should certainly have a higher standard. If anywhere, if there's any institution it shouldn't be going on in, it really is the church. Totally. Because we totally should know better. Totally. We we should know better.
SPEAKER_01Totally. And that's point number five. The church is the worst. Uh, which is a kind of a corporatization of Paul's uh, you know, statement in one uh 1 Timothy 1.15, you know, Christ died for sinners of whom I am the chief. You know, he Paul is the worst sinner, and the church, the church is the worst. Especially because, you know, Jesus just we we just heard from Matthew 14, Jesus gives his his advice about don't climb the ladder, don't take the places of honor, you know, put yourself in the last place. That doesn't work in any other realm. That's not how you get on in business. That's not how you get on in the music industry, that's not how you get on in any industry. Um and so abuses of power, of course, like what do you what do you call abuses of power among the Gentiles? Well, the Gentiles, says Jesus in Mark chapter 10, they lord it over one another. That's what they do. You know, Gentiles are gonna Gentile. That's what that's what they're gonna do. Gentiles are gonna change it. That's what they're gonna do. But not so with you, says Jesus. Not so with you. And and so what do you call it when there is bullying um in the world, business as usual? What do you call it when there's bullying in the church? An outrage, a scandal, unrighteous, totally unchrist-like. So we need to we need to own this, that that we are the worst at this. And you know, I I've seen in the States, you know, people responded last year to um certain members of the uh Southern Baptist Convention uh churches, there were some youth pastors who were um you know who were done for uh uh child sexual abuse and and grooming teenagers and things like that. And one of the responses was, well, actually, you know, the the the rates of child abuse, you know, among the church are actually lower than the scouts.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I say right then.
SPEAKER_01And you're like no, the church is the worst, you know. And it's you know, the world is gonna do the world's world's thing. We're meant to do the Christ thing. Um and we need to we need to own that. So that point number six, um have you ever heard the phrase all of life is repentance? Um Martin Luther kind of um made that one of one of his key points in the 95 Theses. It's not just you do your little penance thing as a Catholic and and then you're you're cool. All of life is repentance. All of life is returning.
SPEAKER_00Turning around a change of direction.
SPEAKER_01Uh totally. You're turning around, turning around, turning around, constantly confessing before the Lord your sin. So I think all of life is repentance, but I think all of leadership is repentance, really. Um But what does it look like to own the fact that the church is the worst and I'm the worst sinner, and I'm a sinful leader, and I'm gonna get things wrong? What is it what is it and what does it look like to communicate that to those who you lead so that they might feel comfortable calling you on stuff? You know? Or or are you just gonna say, ah, you know, I've got I've got my foibles, but you know, that's why you love me, right? I'm a lovable rogue, I'm a rough diamond. Um as opposed to, you know, saying to people, look, look, here here's my here's my bundle of contradictions and sins. You know, you know I've I've said before, you know, to you in in in meetings, look, I keep knocking. See, that one of my one of my sins is I'm terrible with microphones and I keep uh keep toppling them. But I mean another another one of my sins is I'm an inveterate plate spinner. And that means that I'm always taking on new stuff and not dealing with the really important stuff. And what does it mean to come to your staff and say, um, I haven't I haven't been as attentive to the things that I've needed to be as attentive to as I as I need to? And I'm sorry about that. And that that has meant that there are these organizational problems that get exacerbated, and these are organizational problems that are exacerbated. And what what does it look like to publicly repent of stuff? And to be the sort of person who people can say, hey Glenn, actually, after that conversation last night, I I felt really yuck. I don't know why. Can we talk about it? Can can we breed leaders like that? Um because I like even that that's quite that's quite hard, isn't it? Like if I if I say to you, Paul, you know, um, if you are, you know, if I've made you uncomfortable by anything that I've done, you know, that's we might have to start start talking about our feelings and stuff, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've already had one of those this year, so I don't want to make you anymore. You've maxed out my feeling for this year.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And so all of life is and all of leadership is is repentance. And yeah, leader leaders need to lead with with humility and be correctable. And that that means not just um a a personality type and not just um uh a feeling in the office. There also needs to be structures in place so that if you've got a problem with me, you go to the board, and the board's not gonna instantly sack you and make you sign a non-disclosure. You know. So all of leadership is repentance. And then um point number seven, um, point number seven, how we respond is vital. Um you know, it's so possible that someone who has been abused spiritually, let's say, they make it known, and then all the powers that be really gang up on them now. Like they they thought they'd been abused before.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Like you said, then then the tribalism, people batting down the hatches on, you know, we protect our own, and you know, if you're critiquing our own, then we will we will not listen to you, and yeah, like that's where like you say the possibility for reabuse really.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, 2 Samuel 13 is just such a uh heartbreaking chapter where you see um the abuse of Tamar, um, you know, who is raped. But it it takes four men to abuse her, not just the rapist, but the man who advised her, and then her father who just covered it up, and then Absalom, who, you know, who made makes things far worse with his retributive justice, his vigilante justice, really. Um and it it took four men to abuse her, not just the one. And and as she makes her plea known to David, you know, he should have been her protector and he wasn't. And and just the the the way that we handle abuse, we can end up reabusing victims um if we don't hear them and if we don't embrace messiness. Because, you know, one of the things that it's often said, um, when you raise a topic like this on a podcast, is people will say, Ah, don't gossip. Right. And yet that can be that can be used to cover up righteous disagreements and and righteous critique.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01You know, and it'll be messy, and and what sounds like gossip to one person will will will sound like um a righteous critique to somebody else.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um and we need to embrace that that messiness about things. But but how we respond is vital, and and the first thing we need to do is is like Graham Linehan says, what's the note behind the notes? Well something's gone wrong here, and maybe I'm at fault at some level. Let's figure that out, rather than let's batten down the hatches and and keep this show on the road. Um point number eight, uh, niceness is not the answer. Niceness is not the answer. Um so especially as regards to the Axe 29 stuff, a lot of people have been saying, ah, you know, in the mould of Driscoll, he was just he was on the Axe 29 bus. He was on the Mars Hill bus. There's a famous clip of him like saying to Mars Hill, you know, we're on the bus and we're heading in this direction, either get up, get on the bus or we run you over.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then he says, and there are a lot of bodies behind us who we've run over. And he's just absolutely unrepentant about that. You get on the bus or or you get run over.
SPEAKER_00Um and Which, you know, as a illustration, you can kind of go, Right, you know, that sounds like uh you know, you c come with us or get out of the way. When you put that in more stark terms, you know, either do what I'm saying or we'll destroy you.
SPEAKER_02Man.
SPEAKER_00Like you're kind of going, yeah, that's a bit darker than go with us, you know, or we'll destroy you on the way.
SPEAKER_01That's way dark, but Driscoll said some absolutely ridiculous and appalling things. Um and I'm I'm not a big Driscoll fan at all. But um a lot of people in reaction to that have kind of been saying, Oh, we just need to be gentler. Yeah, true. Um let your gentleness be evident to all. Absolutely, we should. And we should be kind. You know, Jesus was kindness on legs when the when the loving kindness of God showed up in Titus 3 verse 4. That's a name for Christ, a title for Christ is he is God's kindness on legs. Kindness is great. Niceness, not so much. Because you can you can have nice collaborators, nice collaborators with the evil regime who are just nice. And they just want to play nice. And and of course, just just being nice, it takes a heck of a lot of forthrightness to come forward with an allegation of of abuse. Takes a heck of a lot of guts to believe that accuser and to try to set things straight. You need a lot of spine, a lot of background to deal with abuse. Nice niceness is not the answer. Kindness is, but kindness is forthright. And, you know, Jesus is not nice. He's he's kind, but he's not nice. I was preaching on um Mark chapter three on Sunday, and it's just fascinating how often around him there's all sorts of passive-aggressive muttering. All the Pharisees and the teachers look, they're always always muttering. He's you know, he's welcoming sinners and eating with them, or who can forgive sins but God alone? And in my passage in Mark chapter 3, he um he heals a man on the Sabbath. No, he's is he really gonna heal on the Sabbath? And they're muttering. And what Jesus does, he hates, he hates all that kind of passive aggressive muttering on the side. He just he asks the guy with the withered hand, stand up in front of everybody. And then he addresses a question to the whole room. He he can't stand that passive aggressive muttering. He he calls things out into the lights, and he'll address them, you know, head on. And it and it and nice people don't do that. Sure. You know, nice people won't do that. And this is not at all uh to be down on um those who have been victimized and don't feel they have the strength or the voice to be able to communicate that if you've been victimized, then I completely three times. Three times a lady for those listening. I've just uh tapped over my uh my microphone for the third time. But yeah, for those who have have been abused, completely understand why you don't want to stand up to your abuser now. Um and I'm not talking about you, but I am talking about a culture around the abuser. If they're just constantly being nice, then they're enabling, actually. We don't we don't need niceness, we do need kindness, but we need forthrightness. We need people to call a spade a spade. Um and then the last two points, um, they kind of go together. Um there's no hero but Jesus, but number ten, but there are everyday examples that we can follow. Um so the the fact that there's no hero but Jesus, I mean this this kind of goes back to what you were saying about Jean Vanier, you know, people feeling absolutely devastated that he had fallen as as though it will shake your entire faith. And we can understand why it shakes you massively.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But Jean Vannier is not your hero.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_01And there is no there is no earthly hero who can bear the weight of your hero worship. Umly Jesus. And and so, you know, allow allow these scandals to refocus our allegiance to the true hero. And there's only there's only one. There's only there's only one who is sinless, there's only one who's worthy of our hero worship. Um, but just because there's no hero but Jesus, that doesn't mean everyone is equally as wicked as some of these abusers. Like it doesn't it doesn't mean that. Um and there are examples, everyday examples of people quietly serving Jesus who are not monsters. Sure. There really are such people. Absolutely. They don't get lionized in some of our church circles, and that's a big problem. Because the systems that produce the Mark Driscolls, um, in a sense, those systems are not broken. Those systems are producing exactly what they've been intended to produce, which is people who want to ascend the power structure. And and but there are there are those people like in Mark in in Luke chapter 14 who want to take the lowest place. But there are such people out there. And we need to we need to, you know, look at them.
SPEAKER_00I mean part of all this, I mean, and and I there were there are differences, but part of me is just wondered a little bit about how do we the kind of people we pick for leadership for things. And we often lay down certain criteria which isn't necessarily biblical.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00It's just like, oh yeah, they're really good, they're a good preacher. Maybe that's always a good one. That always seems to be the one that comes. But you know, what we end up with is I don't really know where I'm going with this, but but I just wonder whether is it because we're like we're we're very hesitant, aren't we? If we had someone who who was very gentle and kind of softly spoken um love the Lord, but I think we'd be and we had someone else who was quite charismatic and out there and love the Lord, I reckon nine times out of ten we'd take the charismatic one and push them up to the front. Yeah. Um often those people. And I just wonder something it's often the people who if someone says to me, Oh, I don't really think I should be doing it, and Z, I'm brilliantly perfect. Exactly, exactly. It's the one who comes up and says, I would be perfect to be the leader of this. Yeah, yeah. Not so sure, but obviously generalization.
SPEAKER_01But none of the prophets actually come from the school of the prophets.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01They're all and they're all trying to run away from it. Isaiah's trying to run away from it, Jeremiah.
SPEAKER_00I won't name any names because uh because I wouldn't embarrass this person, but so like there's someone I know who is just incredibly self-deprecating and and it's not an act, it's not kind of false humility, but very much just kind of oh, you know, I I'll help if I can, but you know, I don't really think I can offer anything, and yada yada yada. And I look at this guy and I just think, oh, I wish I was as yeah, I wish I was as godly as this guy. Right. You know, in in the way he's seeking the Lord. And and you know what, in terms of, you know, maybe in terms of if you're looking for charismatic up the front, you know, dragging people along, you know, maybe not, yeah, but he loves the Lord, yeah. And he is actually incredibly he is an incredibly talented person, really. Um but but really doesn't want to push himself forward to things. Um but I think yeah, I think he's he's great.
SPEAKER_01So Yeah, and the and the last day will reveal you know the fruits of our labours. You know, Paul Paul kind of talks in 1 Corinthians 3 about there are there are people who build on the foundation of Christ with wood, hay, and stubble. Which is ri it's really easy to make a quick building out of a bit of bolsa wood and you know put some you know put some hay on the roof, right? And some build with you know gold and precious stones. You know, it takes a lot longer. It'll be a lot, it'll look a lot more modest to use those precious kind of materials. But the day will bring it to light. And and we will we will see that that actually, yeah, kindness goes a long way. And um and you know, the word leader in English translations, I think I think it's in English trans like like the NIV, I think the word leader it might be like eight, eight times or something, and the word servant is nine hundred times.
SPEAKER_00Sure. It's like the you've talked before about the idea of being a minister, yeah. Like the prime minister or to be the prime servant, but obviously you don't see that modelled in our politics necessarily, you know.
SPEAKER_01Totally, and that's because of Jesus. So let's let's be more Christ-like. Um we've run over time. This is our longest ever live cast. Um Well, we've been talking about weighty matters. Absolutely, yeah. Uh short thrift. Short what? Short thrift.
SPEAKER_00Shrift, isn't it? That's what thrift.
SPEAKER_01Did you say shrift or thrift?
SPEAKER_00I don't even know now. You've got me doubting what I even said. Shrift Don't even know.
SPEAKER_01Short I is it shrift, people? You can you can tell us. Um great conversations in the live chat. Lee Fernie uh has said, while there'll be some who are anti-heroes, it's generally not helpful to think in terms of goodies and baddies, as we need to convince even respected ministers to repent of coercive tendencies. So we need to lead with repentance. And Lee says, I need to personally repent of coercive tendencies as well as to call out abuse. Yeah, lead lead with that kind of uh repentance. Um and uh Katie Walton, great to have you uh listening in uh to the live cast. You says, uh you say, for once I can actually join in. Hooray. And uh she you you also say, is there a risk of going down the route of one directions? That's what makes you beautiful. The song is about no confidence um in beauty. What's the balance? Um I don't know. I don't know, Katie. I th I think it's about having an external beauty, an external, you know, it my righteousness is not found in myself, it's found alone in Christ. And that frees me up to admit to what my sins are. Um because I'm loved apart from what I'm like, I confess to I can confess to what I'm like. And uh and only really where I truly grasp the gospel am I actually free to confess what a jerk I am, and maybe we can start to to do some work on my jerkness and on the systems that uh grow up around my jerkness. Anyway, one thought. Um guys, thanks so much for uh being with us. Uh you can like and share and subscribe this video. Uh subscribe to our channel on YouTube. You can share the podcast around the place.
SPEAKER_00Yep, like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter, do all Instagram, do all that good stuff everywhere.
SPEAKER_01All that good stuff. And next week I uh I won't be with you, but Paul, you will be, and uh someone else will be in this. Get someone else in. Probably best. Guys, thanks for joining us, and we'll see you again next time. Bye bye. Take care. Bye