The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life.
SPEAKER_01Hello, I'm Paul Feasy. I'm Glenn Scrivener. And welcome to the Live Cast here today, 20th of January. How is it the 20th of January? How is that happening?
SPEAKER_00Connect the 20th on the big Christmas soon. Where's the time gone? So that's the annoying pream preamble band out of the way. Yeah, definitely. We are talking today about uh making up minds. How do you change minds?
SPEAKER_01Making your mind up. Yes. There we go.
SPEAKER_00Get the songs in. I don't know that song. What is that?
SPEAKER_01Isn't it APA?
SPEAKER_00Is it really?
SPEAKER_01Is it making he does making your mind up?
SPEAKER_00Okay. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Let us know in the comments.
SPEAKER_00Tick a chance, tick a chance, tick a ticker chance. Um so I mean, uh if you've been on another planet, you will have missed that uh I had a debate with Matt Dillahunty.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00In which we we we tried to change one another's minds. And within the debate, there was the weirdest Steven Crowder episode ever when Matt Dillahunty challenged me. I don't believe in human value, change my mind. Um and uh let let's let's have a look at at some of that. And uh it's prompted what we want to talk about today, which is how do you change minds. You have to figure out a way to change their mind. Trevor Burrus, Jr. And the best way we've discovered over 2,000 years is to tell a story about the God who becomes the weak and despised and the marginalized and the the single cell in Mary's womb. Um I think we can do better than telling a story. Trevor Burrus, Jr. But you think, but what evidence do you have? Trevor Burrus, Jr. Well, give it a shot. There's no reason to think it's not worse than it's any worse. Except all the scientific studies that excited. Trevor Burrus, Jr. So there I talk about the the way we've found to change minds has been to tell a story over 2,000 years that actually immersing people in the story of Christianity is what has shaped the Western mind. Um not so much didactic truths, you know, here are 17 points all beginning with P. Yep. Um it's been inhabiting a world, inhabiting a drama, Tom Tom Holland talks about, in inhabiting the drama of Christianity, is what has shaped the Western mind. Uh and if we're gonna change minds, actually, first of all, we might need to change hearts.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00That's kind of that's kind of the the theory behind it. And uh it's been brought to my attention that this is the way that people um change their minds in a number of different ways. I I read uh this article um called The Physics of Public Opinion this week, uh, in which some physicists were trying to figure out how it is that societies in general change minds, and they started modeling the way that societies change their minds on the way that you know certain like particles decompose just physically. And some of the same dynamics in which things go from one state to another state map onto the way that people change their minds, you know, in in real life. And they they started talking about these stubborn agents and everything when it when it comes to persuading people one way or another is is about stubborn agents and making sure you've got enough stubborn agents on your side rather than the other side. And fascinatingly, the the conclusion to this article will put a link in the description box. Uh the unfortunate conclusion, quote, is that to win a public debate, what matters is not convincing a majority of people from the start, but finding a way to increase the proportion of stubborn agents on your side. Which is just fascinating. You know, don't don't treat the debates as though you are both open-minded and you might go one way or the other. In a sense, if I'm debating you, I don't really want to do it, I don't really want to engage you. I want to engage all the people in my corner who are on my side already. And I want a shadow box in the corner, and I don't care if I'm not really engaging with you. I'm I'm always come on guys, aren't I doing great? Um, and there was actually a review video done of Matt Dillahunty versus me by another debater in the Christian scene, which I kind of think was basically that. Kind of someone who had a Christian base, and he basically didn't bother, like really, you know, having to go at Matt Dillahunty, he had to go at Glenn Scrivener, because that that played well to his base.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_00And it's a it's a weird kind of ecosystem when we're not really interested in persuading the other side, we're just wanting to shore up the base.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and like you say, there is this there's this kind of differences in there between I guess winning a debate and doing being an evangelist. Yes. You know, like and and what matters, does it matter if you come out the other side being able to say like Glenn Scrivener destroyed Dillahunty or whatever, you know? Yeah, good for the clicks. You know, absolutely great for the clicks and you know the clickbait. And you know, that image of the shadow boxing, you know, you say like for some people it feels like you're just there to box and looking over your shoulder at the people on your own side.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I guess you know what you've often said though is when you do your your videos or um your talks uh at like a a university mission week. Yeah um you're you're really kind of talking to the the people on the fr in the room who are listening in. Also, you know, we talk about people in the uh the people who watch the videos and read the comments, but they don't comment.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, you're not necessarily, you know, you get the person who stands up in the the university mission week who's the hardened atheist and comes at you with all these things. Right. And actually, in some sense, they're not the one you're trying to, you know, convince it's the everyone listening in. So if you've got that shadow boxing idea, yes, you are boxing the person in the other corner, but you're kind of always looking over the shoulder at their people in their corner, going, But I'm kind those are the ones I'm kind of here for. Totally. You know, and like you said about Dillahunty, that you kind of hope that people will hear what he said.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01You know, so as you listen to the particularly that last sort of half an hour or so, yeah. When you bring up, you know, the stuff comes up about Hitler and the value of human life.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01In a sense, you're hoping that it's it's not really what you said there, it's almost what he said. Yeah. People would hear that, and and it's not a matter of you turning to your side and going, see. It's more like looking at his side and going, C. Are you hearing this? Yeah, like see? Totally.
SPEAKER_00Totally. My big prayer about the debate is not that people would remember anything that I said, but what he said. Yeah. You know, totally.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Which kind of was my strategy in the debate, which is not really a debater's strategy. And I think this is this is why a prominent debater kind of I think took exception to my strategy, because my strategy was not to engage with 90% of what Matt said. You know, because Matt always wanted to have a different debate. He wanted to have a debate on are there good reasons to believe God exists. Yeah, is it true or not, basically? Is it true or not? That's not the topic of the debate. And so I let a whole bunch of stuff slide, which, technically speaking, as a debater, you're not you're not meant to, you know, you're meant to bring a rebuttal to the points that are made. And so Matt, you know, made some outrageous comments about the Bible. You know, it's just totally pro-slavery, it's totally pro-misogyny and pro-genocide. And I just sit there and just and just let it slide. You know, it's there's a cricketing term, you know, letting the ball go through to the keeper. You know, it's the idea that if the ball is off target, if it's not going to hit the stumps, then you don't need to play it. You know, you don't need to because if you play it, you might get a nick, you might get caught out. So a lot of my evangelism is, you know, and and I think this is everyone's experience in evangelism. You know, if you're in the pub having a conversation, they might say all kinds of you know nonsense and you could go down a thousand different rabbit trails.
SPEAKER_01But you want to keep straight on about keep it on you know the main thing, the main thing, really. You don't want to get distracted from talking about Jesus effectively. Yeah. You know, to get pulled off course. So you do let things slide, don't you? You know, you say, I'm not gonna take the bait there or bite on that one.
SPEAKER_00Which which might not be a great debating strategy, but I think in evangelism, I think you do let a lot of stuff slide. Sure. And and then what what the reason why the last half hour was so valuable in the debates is really because of what Matt said.
SPEAKER_01Sure, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00So letting him keep on speak, speaking, um, you know, turned out to work out all right.
SPEAKER_01And also and it's that whole thing, it's not about winning, you know, like the conversation, winning the points. You know, and that that applies in everyday evangelism as well, doesn't it? Because I mean you can see it's probably quite obvious how you could conceivably see someone winning the debate, but people walking away and saying, you know what, he won the debate. Clearly, I've got well, I can't see how we could come back, but what a jerk. Yeah. You know, you could easily see Did you see the way his head bounced? What a jerk. You know, yeah. But we've all you know, we've we've all seen situations like that, haven't we, where you just think, like, you know what, there's some good points, but man, that person is so unlikable, and you know, or or whatever it is, they've just come across so badly that no one is gonna come to your side because of that. And so you are there to win hearts, you know, like rather than mind. So of course they're tied together, but yeah, yeah, you know, it's it's not just a purely academic slaughtering of the opposition and then come to us.
SPEAKER_00And now do you want to be a part of our thing? Um, but so so then the question becomes well, how do you persuade people? Um, and whenever I think about the art of persuasion, I always think about this sketch from Michelin Webb, and um, sure you've seen it before, but if if you if you haven't, it's a sketch in which two Nazis realize the evil of what they're doing and actually change their mind. What is it that changes their mind? Let's have a look at the clip.
SPEAKER_02Very well. They're coming. Now we'll see how these Russians deal with a crack SS division.
SPEAKER_03Hans, have courage, my friend. Yeah. Hans, I've just noticed something. These communists are all cowards. Have you looked at our caps recently?
SPEAKER_02Caps?
SPEAKER_03The badges on our caps. Have you looked at them? No. A bit? They've got skulls on them. Have you noticed that our caps have actually got little pictures of skulls on them? I don't know. And are we the baddies?
SPEAKER_00It's a beauty, isn't it? It's classic. It's an absolute classic. I I actually I know quite a number of people they only know it in meme form. They don't and they don't never see the meme. They've never seen the clip. So um hopefully that was uh that was useful for you. Or it just gave you a chuckle. But I think the the reason why it's funny is because that's not how people tick. Right? The Nazis didn't like look at the skull on their uniform and go, hang on a minute, you know, abandon ship. Um that that isn't how we tick. So the whole comic conceit is that this is ridiculous. People don't act like that, they double down. You know, we've got skulls, but we're we are the first, you know, righteous people to wear skulls, and you know, that's that's that's how you do it because people are motivated reasoners full of confirmation bias. Um, and that's that's how we tick. Um and and I think um, you know, the Apostle Paul speaks about this in in uh 2 Corinthians 10. And um I've I've got this in the King James Version, and um because because actually in the King James it preserves a few words from the Greek um in a really interesting way. Um Paul says, as as he's engaged in his preaching ministry, he says, For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds, casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. It's funny the way this verse often gets sort of ripped out of context. People sort of think, oh, this is about my personal thought life. You know, I need to I need to take captive every thought, make it obedient to Christ, as though it's about, you know, me policing my own thought life and getting rid of temptation. It's not really that, it's it's actually about a preaching ministry, it's about how you share the gospel and you cast down their imaginations. Because our friends and family, they they have an imaginary. We have an imaginary. Um it doesn't mean it's not true, it's just it's uh it's a drama, it's uh a bigger picture of reality, it's the story that we inhabit. And I've got an imaginary and our non-Christian friends have an imaginary. And it's like a do you mean like a framework? Like a framework, but a frame uh framework kind of feels um uh a bit less heart-led. A framework sort of feels like it could be just an intellectual thing. But this is a heart-led stuff that I want to be true. Um there is there is yeah, there there is a frame in which I I see the world. So yeah, maybe like an artistic frame, you know.
SPEAKER_01Sure, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00That I that I see things in and therefore, what is evangelism? It's actually taking someone from out of their world and immersing them in the strange new world of the Bible. And and that is what evangelism really is, casting down their imaginations. Because, you know, as we talk to people uh in the modern 21st century West, you know, it is obvious to people that um freedom is the paramount value, you know, freedom defined as personal autonomy, being able to do whatever I want to do. And that that is so obviously, you know, the good that you can't argue someone out of it unless you, you know, maybe you immerse them in a story in which uh a princess like goes away to a kingdom of isolation and she becomes the queen, right? And she sings this song and and you know I think a frozen frozen really interestingly undercuts this sort of freedom narrative because she just does what she wants to do do, doesn't she? Elsa goes away to the you know the the ice palace and it ends up being a prison for her, you know. Um and so how do you how do you argue someone out of you know a view of freedom as the ultimate value? Well, maybe you tell a story. Maybe you tell a story like Frozen, maybe you tell a story like the younger son goes off into the far country and ends up in a pig style. You know. Um there are all these imaginaries, and kind of evangelism is the battle of the imaginaries. Um which is interesting because like you kind of think of capturing the m the imagination in evangelism. That sounds like the really woolly thing to do. It sounds like, yeah, I'm a I'm a creative and you know part of a creative collective from Portland, Oregon, and you know, it's like um but actually I got my hand trousers and you know um yeah, and and yet actually Paul says in 2 Corinthians 10 that's that's doing warfare. Um as you captivate an imagination, as you immerse someone in a totally different world, that is how you change minds. Which is why I said to Matt, you know, over 2,000 years, the way we've discovered of actually changing minds is to tell a story. A story of the greatest who dies for the least and the last and and rises again to invite us into his family. That's that's the story that actually changes minds. And therefore, uh evangelism is I don't know, it's not a debate. Um because the mind is not a debating chamber, you know, it's an IMAX cinema. And what we really need to do is take people by the hand and bring them into the IMAX cinema and and immerse them in this 3D experience um with surround sound. And it makes it makes me think as like C.S. Lewis, you know. Like how many how many copies did Mere Christianity sell? You know, a few million, it's done, it's done really well. It's done fairly well. But you know, how many copies has his line the witch in the wardrobe sol sold? Like a hundred million. Right. Yeah, you know. And you just ask your question, I ask ask yourself the question, you know, how many people has mere Christianity persuaded? A lot, a lot of people, you know, but how many people has Narnia persuaded? I would say a lot too. Um and even within Mere Christianity, you know, the the the illustrations that he uses there is is really what's doing the work, you know, when he talks about pride and when he talks about lust, and you know, I still remember he he's he talks about if you were if you went to a foreign country in which and he he's talking about strip joints, but he he he takes the issue um out of the the sexual arena and puts it into the food arena. And he says if you went to this country where um there were men queuing up around the block to go into a a dirty nightclub and watch someone you know reveal uh a roast dinner to you, and all the men are rubbing their trousers, going, you know, like a bit of you know, roast lamb, you know, you would you would at that stage say they have a sick relationship with food.
SPEAKER_02Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00These people are famished for you know, these these these people did not have a healthy relationship with food. Okay, so he's just immersed you in this other world, and now he says, and now come back to your world. Yeah, you do have men queuing up around the block to see someone like take off their clothes. You're like, you've got a weird relationship with sex, don't you? Like as a as a culture. So even within mere Christianity, it's capt capturing the imagination.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_00But how uh how do we change minds, Paul? Have you have you how have you cause you because you did that really interesting um video this time last year uh about abortion where you were you were trying to you know change people's minds on a very contentious kind of issue. Like what what were you trying to do with a a picture is worth a thousand thousand words? That's what it was called, wasn't it? A picture is worth a thousand words.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, the idea with that was that I mean you you can tell people things again and again and again, but sometimes that seeing something makes a huge difference. And and the way that had been shown through history, so um so to with the issue of kind of slavery, um so uh people kind of knew slavery was going on, um, but it wasn't until they were kind of confronted with here are the pictures of the slave ships and what it looks like for these people to be living in these conditions, here were the kind of shackles that they they wear. Um and you know, similarly with um kind of the civil rights movements, um so Emmett Till, the little boy who kind of was one of the reasons at least Rosa Parks you know stayed on the the bus, you know, this boy who was lynched and stuff, and his mother had an open casket. Right. Well, not even an open casket, just just in the house, you know, just uh he was just on the table. This boy had been brutally beaten and murdered and just disfigured and put on display for all to see, and and people kind of saw the horror of uh you know kind of racism, yeah, just laid out before them. Um and then kind of just pushing that and saying, Well, look, we've these are the things we when you see these things, we kind of go, No, this is terrible and wrong. And then it was like, well, here's what abortion actually looks like. Right. Um because again, we kind of all know it's there, right, but there's lots of people who don't. I mean, I just saw something today, someone's saying, I don't really know how abortion's done, but yada yada yada. Right. Um and you realise that actually there there's a lot of people like that who there is stuff is hidden away and until they see it makes it doesn't make a difference. Um so I think then you know that's partly in in aiming to change people's minds, it is being confronted with I wonder if it I mean perhaps a little bit different is that you're trying to confront people with the reality um rather than here's another let me just cast a story. I mean, obviously the stories are talking, you know, the stories you're casting are talking of a reality, whereas this is much more just like this is the reality. You know, let me pull away the veil almost.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. R rather than But let me tell you the reason why we're pulling away the veil, because it's like the slavery issue. And as soon as you say because it's like the slavery issue, people are like, oh right, okay. So I I see the reason why you might want to show the images. Or it's like the civil rights issue. Yeah. And like so this is like that is yeah, is taking someone and it's reframing an issue.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, or you show the I mean I don't think it's in the video, but you you show the you show Auschwitz and the gas chambers and all these people lined up and you know emaciated and you go, well, this is a a horror, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um This is like that is is a lot of what evangelism is, and I'm I'm constantly using analogies. So, you know, the the one I'm always using with science and faith. Um Betty.
SPEAKER_01Betty Betty the Botanist, Betty the Botanist, you know.
SPEAKER_00You know, and Gareth the Lab Assistant Gareth the Lab Assistant, that's I was trying to think of his name there, yeah. Lovely Welsh lad, Gareth the lab assistant. And uh, you know so lovely. So lovely. So um he's in love, he's in love with with Betty. And uh so there's Betty in the in the lab, and and um, you know, Gareth the lab assistant comes in, she says, Oh, you know, I've done all sorts of tests on the on the botanical specimen you gave me, and I'm gonna, you know, win a Nobel Prize for it all. And you know, I understand the but botanical specimen perfectly. And then Gareth says, Betty, uh, you know, I gave it to you on February the 14th, Valentine's Day. It was a long stem rose. Do you understand what I gave to you, Betty? And you know, as soon as you you've immerse people in that story, they're like, Oh, I get it. Yeah, right? Betty does understand the rose, Betty does not understand the rose. Maybe there are two different ways of looking at the rose. Sure. And maybe there's two different ways of looking at the world. And maybe there's a scientific w way, and maybe there's a faith-based way. And so, but once you've hooked people with the story, it's brilliant. I w I was in a really, you know, I was a long I was in a long conversation with a couple of atheists after a talk that I gave. um at Bath University recently. And it just and it was just so um it was so helpful that at many points during the conversation I was just able to say to something that they said to me, I said, yeah, that's what Betty would say though, isn't it? Yeah, spoken like a true Betty. And instantly they they kind of got it because that's the way we tick. You know, our our our minds are not debating chambers, they're IMAX cinemas and we need to immerse them in this in this different kind of a world. One example I I think of of this being done really well is by Simon Amstel who hosts Nevermind the Buzzcocks. He's a comedian and a I don't know cultural commentator should we call him and uh and he's a vegan. And so you know he's presented with this you know task if he wants to take it on, you know, less than one percent of the UK population are vegan. How do you you know demonstrate the benefits of veganism to society as a whole so he decided to do a a documentary a mock documentary um written from the perspective of the year 2067 in which everyone is now vegan in which the law is that you must never kill animals because animals are people too right and so he does this he uses humor um but from the perspective of this alternative future in which we see veganism triumph we now look back on the past and uh and the documentary is all about you know how these you know old these older generations how could they how could they have eaten meat you know how could they have done that and instantly you're immersed in this new world and you see meat eating in a different light. It's it's absolutely absolutely a work of genius.
SPEAKER_04Let's have a look at a little clip from it younger viewers may find these confessions monstrous but Dr. Vondenbergen believes it's now time for us to face what happened together.
SPEAKER_05It's very cruel for youngsters today to ask why did these people do what they did we couldn't have known that we were active participants in a slave trade because the language of the time suggested we were just eating our dinner inspired by Vonbergen's transformative work this film aims to finally break the silence and the shape around an animal eating pastes delicious could you have done anything differently at that point in your life because if we don't how can we even begin to forgive each other or appreciate the debt we owe to the rebels who paved a path to freedom I suppose I still feel there's something a bit off about anyone on this planet being cut up and put in a bab. Say it to her I forgive you I forgive you this is the story of how people became compassionate I'm really hungry and how meat became people is there anything else you want to say to that little girl I love you yes I love you we have to break the silence around this now because there is a whole generation suffocated by shame who were we how could we why did we to fully understand the horror of the past we must go back to 1944 It's a a really interesting watch it's still available on iPlayer if people want to check it out.
SPEAKER_00It's called Carnage by Simon Amstel but I one of these days I'd love to do uh an abortion version of that one of these days I'd love to do a pro-life version where in the year 2067 we look back on the year you know 2019 and people celebrating that you know we can we can now murder babies in the womb and just yeah immersing people in a different world so that they see the issue again from a different light. And I think that is how we kind of that is how we change minds. We change hearts we change the framework and we immerse people in a different kind of a world if you want an example of it from the scriptures I I I can't think of a better example than uh than Nathan going to David in in 2 Samuel 12. You know it's a tough gig for a prophet right you know you've got to go and convict the king of a capital crime. And he's very clever about what he does. He goes and tells a story about there's a man who has a little bar lamb and oh he's just a little you lamb and he used to you know feed him and he used to sleep with the bar lamb and you know and then his neighbor comes and takes the bar lamb and you know kills him and you know what should be done to such a man you know and David David says you know death's too good for him sort of thing and Nathan's like you are the man you are the man. That's what we're talking about here with captivating the imagination you know put the put the civil rights framework around it. You know put the slavery frame framework around it and like you are the slaver. You are the slaver you know um I think that that is the way that we ultimately convince people and change change minds by changing hearts and captivating imaginations.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So there's still there's still you know a reason to do debates and this you know but I think your tactic within the debate is you're constantly reminding yourself that the mind is not a debating chamber.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you're constantly trying to get people back into the IMAX cinema. Well that ought to do us um for today on the live cast Changing Minds Winning Hearts and um if people want to get in touch with us uh for uh for the next week what should they do Paul?
SPEAKER_01Yeah if people want to just keep up to what with what we're doing uh then make sure you give us a a like um on Facebook if you're on Facebook if you're on YouTube do subscribe and follow all our stuff um you can sign up uh for our newsletter online if you go to our website uh so you can keep you abreast of all the things going on um and if you want to support our work you can go to speaklife.org.uk forward slash give and there are various ways to uh support us there.
SPEAKER_00Very good and uh next week a bunch of us will be up in Edinburgh University uh reaching out to uh in fact four different uh universities in Edinburgh including Edinburgh University and uh so you can be praying for us as we reach out with the good news there but um we will see you very soon people and thanks for joining us see you later bye