The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life.
SPEAKER_05We talk about chick filing, the simulation army, and what inclusion really looks like.
SPEAKER_06Cup of tea? But you don't believe in tea? Sure, not for myself. My body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, but I don't personally particularly tannin by stimulus. You're a tenant home. I'm not afraid of ten.
SPEAKER_07I was just wondering if you want some of my best friends work in the drink industry. Some of my best friends work in the drinking industry. Well you still understand Do you want a tumble?
SPEAKER_06You know what you someone offering you to do? You're a turn. Excuse me. A tea exclusionary radical drink maker. I don't think that's a thing.
SPEAKER_05Uh oh, it's a thing. And you want that thing. You sir returned. Uh oh. White supremacists too. Oh, black woman, is it? What about those who like their team non-binary? I really don't think that's a big. I'm sorry, I'm cutting me a random exclusion agent anymore. You sir are the worst person I have ever met.
SPEAKER_07That's the thing about Nick Haas. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I am a T bigot.
SPEAKER_05T bigot. Gust me.
SPEAKER_07But you you really take to the whole prissy thing. Like whenever we write whenever we write a sketch in which we need someone to be outraged and reviewed. Outraged from Crowbra.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Disgusted of Crowbra. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_05I've got a lot of anger.
SPEAKER_07I keep it. Expressed in a prissy kind of a way.
SPEAKER_05Push it down and let it out for those moments.
SPEAKER_07You let it out in the sketches when you say, you sir.
SPEAKER_05You sir.
SPEAKER_07Which was not in the script, but Paul just very happily ad lib that it sir.
SPEAKER_05It's genuinely how I talk about it.
SPEAKER_07Anyway, that there is Paul Feasy. This here is Glenn Scrivener. Surprise turd. Yes, I am a turd. Now, for those who might be wondering why Paul is calling me that, um it's spelt T-E-R-D, and we made it up. So as an acronym.
SPEAKER_05Did we?
SPEAKER_07Trans exc No.
SPEAKER_05No, no, no. It's the play is on that, isn't it? Yes, yes. A T exclusionary radical drinkmaker, which was a play on the trans-exclusionary radical feminist turf.
SPEAKER_07Indeed. And if you don't know uh any of that background, then you just think we're swearing at each other here at Speed Life, which is par for the course. That's most mostly what we do. So we're thinking about what does inclusion look like, and I guess the sketch is getting at the fact, okay, there was I. I was wanting to include you, I was wanting to share with you and serve you with my lovely cup of tea.
SPEAKER_05Yes, serving me some tea.
SPEAKER_07Yes, but my beliefs did not align with yours.
SPEAKER_05No. And I knew, despite the fact that you were offering me the tea, I knew that you had wrong wrong thing. Wrong thing. Wrong think in your mind despite your actions.
SPEAKER_07I'm a taninphobe.
SPEAKER_05Taninphobia.
SPEAKER_07And therefore must be excluded.
SPEAKER_05Particularly hurtful to me. Really? Because of the amount of people I know who work in the tea industry.
SPEAKER_07Some of my best friends are from the Indian subcontinent, which relies heavily on tea-based industries. So um yeah, it just gets a little silly, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_09Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And so we're we're thinking about what is it that makes you inclusive in a good sense, in a healthy sense. Is it about uh the beliefs that you hold? Are they pure ideologically? Is that what inclusion means? You know, we want to include everybody as long as they have the correct ideology.
SPEAKER_09Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Or um would inclusion be something that you do rather than you know having everybody think the same.
SPEAKER_09Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And one of the reasons why we've thought about this is because of the story about Chick-fil-A, um, which uh we've been following a little bit, and uh over the last month, Chick-fil-A, which is a chicken sandwich fast food outlet, should we call it that? Yeah, why don't we get it? A fast food outlet in the States that was founded in 1967 and has 2,400 outlets in the States. They opened one in Reading in the UK.
SPEAKER_05Is it the first UK one? Is it is it that? It might be, yeah. It's certainly the first I've heard of. Yeah. I mean it seems to be a big deal, didn't it?
SPEAKER_07So I've thought many times, you know, if I'm driving down the M4, why don't I just see what all the fuss is about? Have you really? Yeah. No, I really have. You know, what is Kanye singing about?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05If any some American friends of mine did bring me a load of Chick-fil-A sauce on time. Okay.
SPEAKER_07And just the sauce by itself.
SPEAKER_05Well, I mean, i I think they brought they brought it on the plane, so you know, they it's unlikely you're gonna bring a chicken sandwich from the States, isn't it?
SPEAKER_07That's true, but the sauce is still pretty weird.
SPEAKER_05Well, it must have been sachets. It's good though.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. And they they smuggled it through customs with their machetes and anything to declare. Yeah. So Chick-fil-A was uh a big enough deal that I thought I'd like to go to Reading and check it out, but I I better get my skates on. Um because Oh, yeah, you've still got a bit of time, right? I think I've got a bit of time because gay rights campaigners have called for a boycott of Chick-fil-A and they protested outside of Chick-fil-A in Reading. And then the Oracle Shopping Centre that that um houses Chick-fil-A um bowed to that pressure, and uh on the 10th of October they said that the right thing to do was for them not to renew the restaurant's lease beyond its six-month pilot period. So if you if you're in the UK and you do want Chick-fil-A, then you go now. Go now. Now, why? Why is Chick-fil-A such a you know an extreme organization that must be shunned at all costs? Um the reason is it gives to various charitable causes. The CADS. How dare they? How dare they be charitable? Including the Fellowship of Christian athletes and the US Salvation Army. Now, the campaigners from uh Reading Pride, an LGBT organization, they said that um particularly the Salvation Army um uh should not be supported because they still believe in traditional marriage. And this has been, you know, this has been the argument that's been made. In 2012, so on on the BBC website, they they report on this story, and they said Chick-fil-A um started uh being controversial when in 2012 Dan Cathy, the company's chairman, uh sparked a US boycott when he's when he opposed gay marriage.
SPEAKER_05Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Back in 2012. What's fascinating for me is that back in 2012, both Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton were against gay marriage.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Until public opinion kind of shifted, and at the end of 2012, Barack Obama came out in favour of gay marriage, and Hillary Clinton waited another year to see if the opinion polls were quite if the wind was blowing quite in that direction, and in 2013 she came out in favour. But what's fascinating to me is in 2012 not only Dan Cathy, but Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton were both in favour of gay marriage, but he was beyond the pale. And we must boycott their restaurant. Yeah. Um because I don't know, because inclusion.
SPEAKER_05It just seems qu bizarre to me because Chick-fil-A, although I mean, so so as a group, they obviously donate this money and they're was he was he the CEO? Was that what you said? Yeah, the chairman. Um he may personally hold those views, but in terms of you know, if you're a member of the LGBTQ community and you turn up to Chick-fil-A, they will serve you some chicken. Yeah. If you want a job, you can apply for a job like anyone else at Chick-fil-A and get a job there.
SPEAKER_09Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um so it's uh I don't see how that is actually excluding anyone. So so those beliefs are not actually affecting anyone in the LGBTQ community. Um and also the Salvation Army, even though they're you know they're kind of articles of belief or whatever will say that they affirm a traditional view of marriage, they serve people who are part of the LGBTQ community. Right. So it's hard to see how any of the views these people hold actually has any real effect on people in the LGBTQ community.
SPEAKER_09Yeah.
SPEAKER_05But also it would seem like the action being taken would stop the LGBT community being served in some way. Yeah. I think they said in their own statement, they believe themselves to be to to to be one of the group biggest groups serving, you know, uh people in that community. So to take that away, actually you're damaging your own cause all because you think, well, these people think the wrong thing. Right. Even though they're doing things to help you.
SPEAKER_07Right. Yeah, exactly. And and the story has developed in the last week to the point where uh Chick-fil-A have actually seemingly bowed to all this pressure and they're no longer gonna um fund, no longer gonna um support the Salvation Army. Um and the Salvation Army on November 18th came out with this uh great statement. They they said the Salvation Army, as the largest social services provider in the world, is already fully committed. We serve more than 23 million individuals a year, including those in the LGBTQ plus community. In fact, we believe we are the largest provider of poverty relief to the LGBTQ plus population. And it it's it's just crazy that you would think, oh, but they hold the wrong views, so we don't want your help. What really what's fascinating about that is it seems really religious, doesn't it? You know, it's like they hold the wrong doctrine. Yeah, their dogma's wrong, they're heretics, let's burn them. Will you recant? Oh, yeah. Where where was that recanting? Yeah, um, yeah, fascinatingly on the on the BBC website, um Mr. Cathy has previously um said that he regrets taking a public stance on same-sex marriage. And then the BBC website continues, though he has not recanted his view, which he tied to his Christian faith. Recanted? That's interesting. Yeah, yeah. So we still have heresy hunts and we will still burn people at the stake. Um we will burn them at the stake for holding views that Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton held seven years ago. Um but if history turns and you don't, you know, you don't keep up with history, you are toast, baby.
SPEAKER_05And uh you can understand in a sense that if they were doing something that was exclusionary, if they were saying, you know, as you came through the door, excuse me, here you're a member of the LGBTQ community, yes I am. Oh well, sorry, and no source for you.
SPEAKER_07You can have the prize.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Just no source.
SPEAKER_05You can understand why that would be an issue, but they're not doing that. And partly, I mean, I want to go back to why would you not just let the market decide? Right. You know? Yeah. Like, because if what they're doing is really that reprehensible, then the majority of people will not use them. Right. Um, but they're not being given that choice here.
SPEAKER_07Choice is being Because in in in other areas they're quite into choice.
SPEAKER_05Well, I mean yeah, I mean, it's the i often the people pushing these kind of things through are slightly more radical and to the left. Uh but it tends tends to be that way, Paul. Um I think it's a good idea. But you know, what you hear from the radical left on other issues like abortion, they'll say to the pro-lifers like us, if you don't like abortion, don't have an abortion. Or if you don't like Chick-fil-A, don't go to Chick-fil-A, but don't stop the rest of us going to Chick-fil-A. You know? Like at least be it's just inconsistent, you know. And it is it is zealous, isn't it? It's yes, it's tyrannical, kind of we've got we've got to stop everyone else. Not even from doing the wrong thing, just from thinking the wrong thing. Right, you know.
SPEAKER_07Right. And it's the idea that there could be any organization out there that believes differently.
SPEAKER_05Shut 'em down. Can you imagine if just you took this into every area of life? I mean, going to the going to the corner shop to get your newspaper and a and a bottle of milk. Or any issue. Wouldn't just have to be a mat, it could be anything. You know. Turns out, you know, oh look, I'm a bit I'm a Labour voter. Turns out the man who runs the shop is conservative. Well, I can't shop here now.
SPEAKER_08Right.
SPEAKER_05Like, what level do you stop this at? It's just sheer lunacy.
SPEAKER_07It's all in the name of inclusion. Yeah. They should just relabel it tribalism. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. We love everybody apart from the people who don't think exactly the same as we do.
SPEAKER_07Right. Yeah, we believe in all kinds of diversity except viewpoint diversity. Um I thought the Babylon Bee had a great uh comeback. When news was breaking about the Reading uh um branch of Chick-fil-A having to close here in the UK, uh, Babylon B ran with small island of uncultured savages rejects America's gracious attempt to introduce them to good food. A previously unexplored small island of uncultured savages in the Atlantic has rejected American missionaries' attempts to introduce them to good food. Missionaries attempted to build a Chick-fil-A in the unfriendly wildlands of the island, but the savages protested and chased them off with pointy objects, which were then confiscated by what seemed to be a sort of primitive police force. We attempted to make contact with the locals, putting out Chick-fil-A sandwiches on the ground and gesturing towards them, saying, You eat good food, said one missionary. Sadly, they just threw bricks at us and called us hateful. The natives then went back to eating a pyre with fish heads sticking out of it, a barbaric dish they somehow think of as food. And on the article goes, I highly recommend the Babylon B article called Small Island of Uncle Uncultured Savages Rejects America's Gracious Attempt to Introduce Them to Good Food. It's nice that someone can laugh at this. Um but yeah, this is this is all in the name of inclusion. And I I read a really interesting article by Spencer Claven, who um is gay himself and Christian and sort of conservative politically. Um but uh he he wrote this in uh The American Mind. He said, as long as LGBTQ friendly means not tolerant of gay people, but actively in favor of gay marriage, no conservative Christian organization will ever fit the bill. So a as long as we're pressing people to have the right beliefs about gay marriage, um, then yeah, you will absolutely persecute and hound and seek to annihilate Christianity from the face of the earth. Um is that what people want? Sometimes it feels like it. Sometimes it feels like it. But um, I mean I I was asked at Bath University last week, um, was it, yeah, ten days ago, I I did a talk on love, and I said the you know the church is the greatest movement for love in the world, and it's the largest, most inclusive sociological phenomenon the world has ever seen. And in the Q ⁇ A afterwards somebody said, um, if that's the case, then why does it spread so much hate? Uh and he had one issue on in mind when he asked that question. Sure. And it was and it was sex and sexuality. You know, it was it was that issue, um, which is an incredibly narrow metric by which to judge Christianity or any ideology. Sure. Where do you stand on sexual minorities that account for significantly less than 10% of the population? Is that the metric? I I you know it's it's bizarre, isn't it?
SPEAKER_05I mean, I I I find that a strange thing as well when people uh in a similar way say, you know, Christianity is this kind of white Western thing, you know, and you think, well, it's not come out of a white western uh setting at all. Right. And if you look around the world at you know, who are the majority of Christians, you'll find that it's probably not white people. Right. Um it's gonna be kind of Asian and African.
SPEAKER_07Um and of all people around the world who hold to LGBTQ plus kind of ideology, it's only really white people in the West. Like, you know, it it's such a it's such a weird view, you know, and the acronym weird spells white, educated, industrialized, rich, democratic societies, which are a minority of societies around the world, but somehow we think that you know these these ideologies, these these philosophies of sex and marriage that have been around for about five minutes and are located only really where white people are found. That's the most inclusive thing.
SPEAKER_05Terribly ironic, isn't it, really, that it is those kinds of people who will say, you know, look at the church imposing its white colonial views on the world, and you're like, well, your your views are the you know, what are you doing? Right. You're just trying to impose your Western views on the rest of society as it because you're assuming that you are the ones who are kind of the standard of the norm and so on.
SPEAKER_07And then to exclude even chicken-based fast food restaurants when they don't line up. Dear man, chicken. I mean, just how do we get to this stage? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. And so and and here's another thing that's been happening recently, um, in in terms of inclusion, because if we're gonna judge the inclusiveness of church based on, let's say, the LGBT question, well, let's turn the tables and ask, how inclusive are they? You know, let's like a so here's a rainbow coalition um that seem to be marching in the same direction. Are they? Let's open up the lid and have a look inside and let's see how inclusive, you know, uh this alliance really is. Um and of course it's it's a very loose alliance, and that's okay. You can you can have a coalition of of various different ideologies and you can be co-belligerent with one another, and you can try to uh support the same kinds of issues without having to be completely monochrome. But actually, the difference between the L's and the G's and the B's and the T's in particular is such that um there has now been set up a new alliance, um, sort of in distinction to Stonewall, which has been the the largest um gay rights activist group in the UK. Um many people from within Stonewall have been very unhappy with transgender ideology coming in in the last sort of five years, um, and they're going to start the LGB alliance, and of course the T is then excluded, right? And so Stonewall supporters are calling LGB Alliance supporters transphobic, and LGB Alliance supporters are calling Stonewall supporters homophobic, which is just, you know, Stonewall's being called homophobic. So if you're called homophobic, at least know that so is Stonewall. Yeah. Like so is Stonewall.
SPEAKER_05But uh but but that I mean I think we've touched on this kind of thing before is that actually there are these when you scratch beneath the surface, many of these these ideologies are at odds with each other. And I mean, just like obviously the the the Fs, the feminists are not in the LGBTQ community, but you have seen particularly the transgender activists and the feminists clashing heavily over issues because you know, w feminists are saying, look, if you're putting transgender women into women's spaces, you know, as far as they're concerned, you're putting men into women's spaces, that's not a good thing. And I mean it and what with the um you know, we've seen records being broken, haven't we, recently by transgender women um you know, who've come in and broken women's world records. Right. And it that seems like a ridiculous step backwards for you know for the feminist movement who've wanted to bring women to the fore. I mean at the end of the day, I mean didn't Caitlin Jenner win Woman of the Year? Yes. Like which is uh basically someone who is who is a biologically male, one woman of the year, and you begin to see the absurdity of these things, and you can see exactly why these groups are now beginning to pull each other apart.
SPEAKER_09Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Because actually their ideologies don't match up.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And they're gonna come apart.
SPEAKER_07And you know, so here here are some of the issues on which the LGBTQ plus community do not agree on. You know, is gender fixed or is it changeable? You know, there are different views on that. Is sexuality fixed or is it changeable? Different views. Is marriage equality the goal? Or is or is marriage deconstruction the goal? And you know, Stonewall activists used to be, I mean, many of them used to be, well, why do we even want to get married? Why do we want to participate in this heteronormative institution called marriage? Let's let's leave all the straits to do that and let's set up our own vision for relationships, which, you know, is a view that has an integrity to itself. But it's not obvious that b just because you're gay, you want gay marriage, because maybe maybe you want to even question marriage itself.
SPEAKER_09Sure.
SPEAKER_07And that that has been a vibrant question within the gay community. But there's there's disagreements on that. Are we able to disagree? Are people able to disagree without, you know, without us splintering and splintering? Are gay people a little different or queer? And and you know, are they are they are gay people just the same as straight people or do you want to be queer and you know put a massive question mark over everything in society? Actually the LGBTQ plus you know alliance holds all those different kind of views together. Should children be taught gender identity or not? And a lot of gay women in particular are saying we we shouldn't be we shouldn't be calling tomboys transgender men, right? We should just let tomboys be tomboys and not conform them to these gender stereotypes. And there's and the the disagreements just multiply. And so if you want to okay if if the church is being called out for not being inclusive by what standard and who does it better? We do it terribly, but I think we are the best of a bad bunch. You know I th I think who who is it that is actually able to hold together and not just issues of sexual um sex and sexuality but but over issues of gender and class and race and you know culture that spans the globe. Who does a better job of it than than the church? Answer nobody. So it like it used to be that when these issues came up I would advocate for a um a very conciliatory response when people would sort of say the church hasn't been very inclusive has it. I used to say let's do a thank you sorry please approach and we would say thank you for raising that issue yes you raise some very good points that we shouldn't be unthinkingly conservative about family and marriage and that sort of thing because actually the Bible's really radical on these things and it radically talks about singleness and you know single Jesus, single Paul and you know radically talks about becoming a eunuch for the kingdom. So actually the Bible is not unthinkingly conservative on on these issues. So thank you for raising these issues let's think through them. And then you say sorry and and we should say sorry for all the homophobia that there has been and that there can continue to be around the world and then you say please please will you hear us out you know our teaching on sex and marriage and family has built civilizations. We know what we're doing give us a give us a hearing but more and more I'm kind of fed up with it. I don't want to be so conciliatory anymore. I'm just like well okay we could definitely be more welcoming we could definitely repent of all sorts of um there is such a thing as homophobia and and Christians can be guilty of it and we should repent wherever that happens but more and more I'm just like when the mob just wants your annihilation you're like I don't know there is an old saying don't apologize to the mob but yeah it's not a particularly Christian saying but but you know what do we do? What do we do? When as Spencer Claven said you know um radical gay activists have made their message to the church quite explicit nothing but your annihilation will be enough I don't know there's certainly there are certainly some activists for whom that is true.
SPEAKER_05I think I think yeah I mean you're right that there are some I guess whom for whom that is a very conscious thing. I think for many as we've discussed on a lot on a lot of issues there's just a lack of joined up thinking so if you put it to someone maybe if you just ask the average person on the street about these issues that we've been talking about today, the Chick-fil-A thing, they'd probably be relatively sympathetic with uh the LGBTQ stance but I wonder whether it's because people don't really haven't really thought deeply about you know what does this mean for every group you know that surely this means that you can't have any organization that thinks even thinks regardless of how they act. And I I I mean that's what I see a lot really I just think there's a lack of joined up thinking which you know why I mean it was a bit flippant earlier talking about though if you don't like abortion don't have one. But I mean that for me I look at that and I go it'll be the same kind of people saying those things you know who will be pushing for against Chick-fil-A who will be saying don't have an abortion don't like an abortion don't like abortion don't have one.
SPEAKER_09Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And for me I look at that and go where's your joined up thinking because you're pushing two completely different right ways of looking at things there.
SPEAKER_07Yeah live and let live when it suits you and then imposing your ideology when it suits you.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Yeah yeah and I think you know that's the thing most people haven't really thought stuff through I mean that's that's the conclusion I I come to more and more.
SPEAKER_07No one actually thinks anymore. I really liked what Rowan Williams once said the former Archbishop of Canterbury he actually really put a question mark over the entire language of inclusion which I think is absolutely right. He said I don't believe inclusion is a value in itself welcome is so the Christian vocabulary is about welcome not this newer language of uh of inclusion he says we don't say come in and we ask no questions I do believe conversion means conversion of habits, behaviors, ideas, emotions. The boundaries are determined by what it means to be loyal to Jesus Christ. And I I think that's really helpful that we're a welcoming community more than we are an inclusive community. And I think by being welcoming I think you could then call us inclusive but I think what we go for is is welcome.
SPEAKER_05I wonder whether the best Christian response in the face of these things is maybe not so much you know your Facebook post or your your apologetic for why these things you know are okay or not okay or whatever but it's just you know welcome gay people in your church.
SPEAKER_07Right. You know have them to dinner.
SPEAKER_05And the and then their Christian friend says well am I a hypocrite and they're like oh no not you know you know all the it's all the other ones and yeah yeah. Well do you actually know any Christians who out of all the Christians you know which ones do you think are hypocrites? Oh well not the ones I know. And and I wonder whether that's the case for us. Like actually the best thing we can do is on the ground with the people we know who maybe do fall into other camps and ideologies and groups is not necessarily like try and bend them to accepting our you know conclusion and showing them why they're logically incorrect or whatever.
SPEAKER_09Right.
SPEAKER_05But just saying well you know you're welcome.
SPEAKER_07Yeah yeah yeah yeah you can come in it's fine you know exactly it's it's a very one peter kind of thing it it's you know um though they accuse you of doing wrong you know you just keep doing good.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_07You know and and many will be won on the last day. That's that's what you know one Peter two verse twelve says um how does it go? We should we should look it up. How does that Bible hearing it's written somewhere it is written somewhere as the writer of the Hebrews says yeah 1 Peter 2 verse 12 um live such good lives among the pagans that though they accuse you of doing wrong they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. You know and a lot in 1 Peter is about people accusing you of doing wrong no matter what you do people will accuse you of doing wrong. So in a sense you know we shouldn't be surprised by any of this stuff you know we've we've been warned 2000 years in advance though they accuse you of doing wrong let them see your good deeds and that's that's why I like the Salvation Army kind of press release. They were just like well we s we s I I don't think anyone else actually serves the LGBT plus community more than we do. But you know, God bless that thing no absolutely absolutely we have two more little items to do before we wrap up but um one of them is to let you guys know about The Coming uh which is the fourth of our four Christmas films that we've been releasing on YouTube. We're also in the process of releasing them on Facebook. These are uh short films that you can share online but also use in church services if you like. The Coming is based on a poem by R. S. Thomas a Welsh devotional writer and I've always loved the poem and Nick Haas, one of our interns has done a great job of voicing this and also making it into a cinematic journey. This is going to go live tonight at 7pm on our YouTube channel. So we want to give you a sneak peek at this so it gets you excited and so at 7pm you can share the life out of it.
SPEAKER_00So let's have a look at the coming held in his hand a small globe look he said the sun looked far off as through water he saw a scorched land of fierce colored there shadows a bright serpent a river uncoiled itself radiant with smile on a bare hill bare trees in the sky. Many people held out their thin arms to it as though waiting for a vengeance the sun watched them let me go there he said pretty nice huh?
SPEAKER_07Nice is nice very good very good I think it's my favorite Christmas poem it kind it kind of encapsulates Christmas and Easter you sort of get the the sun he realizes that yeah to embrace the crib means embracing the cross so you get yeah get Christmas and Easter run together. If you like that then please do watch it at 7pm comment on it and uh share it among your friends that would really really really help us and uh if you go to speaklife.org.uk slash Christmas uh you can see all four of our Christmas films. Maybe you could give one of them a share or all four of them a share and maybe you could if you're not a church leader you could say to your church pastor hey why don't we use one of these uh for one of our services and that would be great. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Now Paul you uh you noticed uh our final story uh for today's live cast uh set this one up for us so it was on uh question time in the last week I picked it up on Twitter um this video that was being shared around and it was all to do with Labour's new or Labour's part of Labour's manifesto that they will tax the top five percent of earners uh the extra to kind of make up what we you know what they want to do um and so that's gonna be those pay who earn over 80,000 pounds a year and there was just this beautiful little clip from question time where there was a man who objected to that.
SPEAKER_07Let's have a look.
SPEAKER_01The man then I'd like to call out Labour as a liar I am one of them people that he will tax more and I am nowhere near in the top five percent. So I'm calling you a lammy right now that five percent is a lamb right and I am nowhere near them and you are calling for income to make me as an employee you're not going after the billionaires you're going after the employees where it's easy money because it's PA10 and I have no choice I'm not you're mistaken we're not going to raise income tax for anybody apart from the top five percent of earners we're not going to increase your income tax. But you have because I've read your policy it's above 80,000 pounds and I'm nowhere near in the top five percent let me tell you I'm not even in the top 50% and that's why we're not going to increase your income tax and I let's just be clear so you so you're you're suggesting you would raise income tax on those earning over £80.
SPEAKER_04You're saying that would affect you because you earn over that sum.
SPEAKER_01Yes so you earn over £80 and I'm not in the top 5% that I think that is the £80 isn't it?
SPEAKER_05I'm not every doctor in this country earns more than that every doctor every solicitor earnings more than that's not five percent I mean it's not true that every solicitor in the country earns more than £80,000 even as a solicitor I mean it's just over £40,000 a year and the fact that the fact is let's just be clear just let's look at this once and for all it will certainly let's hear from you if you earn over £80 are you in the top five percent categorically yeah so the the top five percent of the members will pay more income tax and I think it's right I think it's right per cent I think I love it it's just so good the moment when he says uh I earn you know I'm not in the top five percent after he said he's earned £80 and there's just this dead sign and just a few murmurs of yeah you are hanging on a minute like and and I tweeted it out again I retweeted it and I said you know imagine earning over £80,000 a year and thinking you are not one of the top earners in the country. He he didn't think he was in the top £50 he didn't think he was even top 50% which is amazing. And I just said on this tweet like it doesn't matter how much money you have we always somehow managed to justify this idea that we're not well off. Right.
SPEAKER_07You know that we've not got enough and I because I think the average or the median median the median wage is something like twenty nine thousand yeah just under twenty nine thousand so yeah if you if you lined up all the all the full-time earners in the UK and you picked the middle person you said what do you what do you earn let's say about twenty eight five yeah yeah and so just amazing to see this guy who I don't know what he does, I don't know how much he earns but it's over 8000 a year. He might be a professional pundit.
SPEAKER_05Yeah but it's it's an amazing lack of self-awareness. Yeah. And it reminds me a bit of the um the Occupy London yes thing where people are campaigning against the one percent and they're saying look it's these evil rich people at the top one percent who are making our lives terrible and I just remember looking at all those people protesting and thinking like you guys are easily we well all of us regardless of whether protesting we're easily in the top ten percent in the whole world and the whole of human history. Oh yeah and if you'd have a Babylon B headline for that it would be like rich people you know rich people protest slightly other rich people slightly richer people for being terrible and it's that complete lack of awareness the complete lack of awareness that basically you have a lot and but I'm gonna cling to it and there's a guy in that that you know video there who has a phenomenal amount but yet somehow still feels that he's being hard done by yeah and someone said it works out you know something like nine pounds a month extra you would be taxed or something on around that amount of money. Yeah like a Netflix subscription or something exactly you know I saw someone someone tweeting today who said for them they'd worked out it would be about 16 pounds a month and he said I bought a bottle of wine for 22 pounds yesterday. He was like tax me twice three times don't mind um it's it's just amazing. Yeah I mean and so I you know I I look at that and I just kind of go oh my goodness like how could you be that unaware? But then I do it with myself you know I have to remember you know when I think to myself oh you know well we're a bit hard done by here well there are people on far less than I am right you know right we're always looking up and being envious we're not looking down and being grateful.
SPEAKER_07I mean no absolutely not absolutely not so yeah um when I was at Occupy London it was the they were all camped out at St. Paul's Cathedral is this 2012 we're going back to St. Yeah it's probably about it is quite a while now. And uh there were lots of lots of signs saying money is the root of all evil and I went up there with my dog collar on because I thought I might be able to get into St. Paul's for free. But uh so Lee knew I was a Christian I just got into conversations with a whole bunch of people and um and I kind of said you know it's interesting that uh money is the root of all evil is not the actual quote. It's actually money is a root of all kinds of evil. In fact it's not even that it's the love of money, right? So you can love money and that's the trap already. You can love money and have nothing. And the guy I was talking to he he just sort of painted me this picture of you know I wake up in my tent and I look out and there are these pinstriped bankers off off you know to earn their millions of pounds and I often wonder you know what kind of houses do they live in what kind of cars do they drive and what are their weekends like what are their holidays like and I was like so the love of money is a real trap. And um I mean one one Timothy six is brilliant on this isn't it godliness with contentment is great gain for we brought nothing into the world and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing we will be content with that. Just food and clothing we'll be content with that. Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction for the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people eager for money have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. Ancient wisdom but it's just it's just so true that the the richer you get, the more envious you become of those who just have a bit more.
SPEAKER_05Yeah and I think also the things that you you would look at as those who have less would look at as luxuries start to become what you consider to be necessities. And so the idea of well how could you possibly live on less than this? If they take my extra nine pound a month, what will I do? You know that it it it's the heart's kind of idolatry, isn't it? Right and I mean Netflix has become the well I remember talking to a guy at church and he was saying about you know family members he knew who you know who were struggling money wise and and like you know in pretty pretty bad place financially but he'd look at them and say why you why have you got sky? And they'd be like, well everyone has Sky. He'd be like, no they don't you know and there's the even in people always you know kind of throwing money away on things that they assume they need when actually you know they could you know it was something like sixty pounds a month they were paying for their Sky subscription and you think you you're probably you're probably not in that dire need if you feel you can spend sixty pounds a month on Sky but for them it was a a necessity that you had to have it you know even if paying other bills was hard. And that just seems really bizarre.
SPEAKER_07But it's it's about cultivating that sense of oh well good for you. Like like if you if you do have Sky you can afford it good for you. Sure. Yeah yeah yeah and you know and if someone's on eighty thousand a year good for them good for them.
SPEAKER_05But if they feel yeah if they feel unrelated you know some perspective on it.
SPEAKER_07James Easter has said the imp impact of income depends on where you live uh that's that's very true and and you know house prices etc um you know rent rental um you know the cost of rent and that kind of thing has a massive impact on people. James also says the top fifth the top fifth of the world consume three fifths of the world's resources while complaining that they're not quite in the top one percent.
SPEAKER_05Well exactly and that's that's kind of my point like it's that complete lack of awareness from people sitting out there you know I mean it's it's it's it's abhorrent almost you know that you could be that deluded you know you could be the lacking so much in self awareness that you're you're basically filthy stinking rich. Any in the if you live in the UK compared to everybody in history and a lot of people around the world we are basically filthy stinking rich.
SPEAKER_07Andy Grice has just uh said on TopChat on YouTube uh what about absolute versus relative poverty? Well it depends what you're relative to because As as you just say, you know, relative to the rest of history, we are filthy stinking rich. We are richer than Solomon.
SPEAKER_05Well, even it was it like a hundred years ago or something like that, it was like they were saying like people s lived on less than a dollar fifty a day in today's money. And th and those are the people who were doing well. Yeah. And like you see how far we've come since then, and we're still sitting here going, Yeah. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_07I mean a fri a friend of mine in um Singapore, he said they they basically got rid of that there is no poverty, you know, in in Singapore, in the in the in in the on the whole island, in the whole city-state. Um and so they they then brought in the um the relative poverty measure um because politicians still needed something to you know argue about and and and you know he's he said, you know, I'm I'm described as relatively poor, but you know, he had four kids and they were all very happy and living together in the house.
SPEAKER_05And of course, you know, in what we're saying, we're not suggesting at all that there aren't people in this country who are living in in poverty and struggling to feed their males, you know, the males of their families and stuff like that. Not at all. Um I would just say it's probably not those people who are out on the streets demonstrating the 1% at the top. Um it tends to be people who pr normally middle class people, normally middle class students who've racked up a lot of debt at university, yeah, who who basically do have quite a lot, who are moaning about people at the top who have a bit more. And and I see Christians do it, Christians doing it as well. You know, and I have to watch it, I have to watch myself.
SPEAKER_07You do have to watch it. Sometimes, you know.
SPEAKER_05The I think even as Christians, we're in danger of just thinking because somebody has money or they went to private school or anything like that, that is inherently bad.
SPEAKER_08Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05You know? And and I've seen that a few times, like people saying about politicians, well, they all yellow yellow yellow, we're like this. And I go, well, even if that was true, that in itself doesn't mean they're bad. Right. You know, they m it could mean they're bad, but I'm not sure the fact that they have money and were privately educated means that. And so there seems to be this idea that we've kind of as grown up in our society that if people are doing well, they're in they're definitely the wrong kind of people. Right. And we're the right kind of people, of course. You know, the ones who don't have as much as them. Yeah, let's take their money, don't take any of my money.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. Um totally, totally.
SPEAKER_05But I think it's it seeps into the church as well. That's the thing that even as Christians we start to believe these things that just being r having you know having wealth or something is inherently evil. Yeah. Um and stuff, but I think there's more nuance to it than that.
SPEAKER_07Totally. And so therefore, let's finish on this. The Apostle Paul says to Timothy, the very next verses in 1 Timothy 6, but you, man of God, Timothy, flee from all this and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance, and gentleness. Fight the good fight of faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you are called. Good words to finish on. Yeah. Hard to improve on. Let's let's be honest.
SPEAKER_09Absolutely.
SPEAKER_07Thank you everybody so much for your company. Um, we've been on YouTube for I guess the last month or so, and uh, it's been great to be on Top Chat there. Uh, we will um publish the link to Facebook, but do be sharing it uh uh around your friends. Um yeah, that gets the word out there. And this will be a podcast as well that'll go out there. Do uh think about giving us a rating and a review, that really helps us get seen as a podcast. Uh make sure you like us uh on all the social media uh platforms. We've got Twitter and Instagram and Facebook and YouTube.
SPEAKER_05Yep.
SPEAKER_07And tonight, 7 p.m., the coming is coming.
SPEAKER_05It's coming.
SPEAKER_07The coming soon. Uh so yeah, 7 p.m. If you could get onto our uh YouTube channel and give it a share. The first 10 minutes are really important for it getting seen uh by many, many people. So uh that would be great. And uh, I think that'll do us for today. I think so. We've covered quite a lot of stuff there, actually, haven't we? No worries, I'll put the kettle on. Would you like a cup of tea? You said it. See you next week.